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The reason behind "no kindred basekit" is stupid imo
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You've spoken my mind. When I heard that statement in the stream I didn't know for a moment if they were kidding. Sometimes I really feel fooled by their statements.
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I never said it was balanced now, im saying through nerfs and buffs from all sides it has become MORE BALANCED then its ever been, but nobody, NOBODY, would contest that SWF gives a MASSIVE advantage over Solo.
Balancing for Solo means killers are near helpless against a proper SWF team, which is true now. bringing solo and SWF more together, provides better means to balance the game further.
I really just keep repeating myself here, I dont even understand how this is a debate, to me what im saying is just simple logic and you are fearmongering and talking in hyperbole.
Reinventing the wheel?
you can't make SWF and solos the same? if you did it just breaks the game?
Period end of story. You can't compensate without ruining the game.?
Like, what arguments do you have, explain these convictions.
I already said in my previous post with examples that the process of bringing them closer together has already started and has been received well so why would any next step towards this goal suddenly completely break the game...
and incentives to play, idk, maybe its me, if a game I know im just going to get bullied and not going to ackomplish anything but have someone T-bag in my face but hey...atleast I get some points and keep my offerings.... yeah idk but ill rather just play a normal game thank you very much.
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You don't make sense to me
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I've explain it several times at this point.
The game is relatively balanced for solo play. What you are asking is for the devs to purposely BREAK that balance to make solos better and then buff killers to compensate, which just leads to power creep, which means that the game just becomes a mess of overpowered BS VS overpowered BS. We want to move AWAY from that, not towards it.
It's really not hard to understand. There is absolutely ZERO need to make Kindred base kit. You don't need it as a solo player, and it's way too powerful to just be given to players.
Fact is you are not making the game better by just buffing everything. It makes more sense to restrict SWF since that's where the problem actually lies.
Likewise 🙄
You guys want another good example of how power creep can ruin a game? Look at Gears of War.
Lancer and Gnasher in Gears 1 were weak. They excelled at very specific tasks (Lancer at range cover-to-cover fights, Gnasher at close range gladiator style fights) and the game worked at all levels.
But people complained they should be buffed because they kept trying to use the weapons outside of their intended purpose.
Skip to Gears 3 and the devs buffed these weapons so much that they are basically one-size-fits all weapons. You could use a Gnasher all game and NEVER need to use a Lancer, and vice versa. While for the low tier players this might have been a good thing because they feel like more effective players, it completely ######### top tier play. The weapons were so strong that, in the hands of an experienced player, it meant exposing yourself even for a moment was near instant death in 1v1, and guaranteed insta-death in team fights. It led to tournament matches where teams just set up on opposite sides of the map and poke at each other, waiting for the last 45 seconds to push for the power weapons so that if they failed they could have a guy stay back to force a stalemate. It was absolutely awful. And unnecessary.
The weapons in Gears 1 were just fine as they were. Maybe they needed some ways to ease new players into the experience (especially when you consider that there are people that have been playing the game since 2006), but making them stronger was NOT the solution. It created a divide, and in Gears 4 the devs were unable to reconcile these two very VERY different versions of the game, so we ended up with two tunings, core and competitive. Core was based on Gears 3 while competitive was based on Gears 1. Then in Gears 5 they threw out both of them for a hybrid that was even worse. Sure people still play the game today, but it's not the same game. Gears 1, Gears 3, and Gears 5 are all very different games. They may share the name Gears of War and the same basic mechanics, but in terms of how they play they aren't even close to being the same. All because a group of players insisted the weapons be stronger, which lead to a power creep and then high tier play suffered because of it.
The goal should not be "buff everything until it's all even". The goal should be "don't touch what isn't broken, and find ways to fix what is".
And PS. it really doesn't matter what you guys say, because the devs understand the situation as I describe it. Kindred is OP in base kit. You're not going to convince them of anything because they know what will happen to the game if it were. That being power creep and the inevitable re-inventing of the wheel.
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Your power creep point is nonsense to me. You buff solo to SWF level. You buff killers accordingly. DONE. No more buffing and nerfing (besides the tweaking and optimising). Done done done done. There is no power creep. You want to see a power creep where actually just balancing has to happen first.
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Yea but that's not how that works. Power creep is when you buff things to the point it breaks the game. SWF breaks the game, therefore you are saying we should break the REST of the game so that it doesn't matter SWF breaks the game.
Like imagine every killer being at pre-rework Nurse levels or better. With the already above 60% kill rate we have now (in some cases as high as 75%). You REALLY want this to be the game? I certainly don't.
You are seriously over-simplifying how "balanced" the game would be at this point. We have a balanced game now. Killer V solos is balanced pretty well. You're asking the devs to toss all that and come up with an entirely new balance point. Things don't work like that. You just destroy the core design of the game.
Again imagine Halo where everyone starts with a Rocket Launcer. In theory that's balanced but in practice it's crap. Skill is irrelevant, everyone is both a God and a noob. It's fun in small doses as a meme side-mode but as the primary mode it's just a totally different game.
You guys have little understanding of how game design actually works.
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You are confusing some fundamental things here. Like everything else, "broken" is relative. SWF is broken not because of it's nature, but because its nature gives advantages to SWF and makes it so much more powerful against killers. If you buff killers to compensate those advantages that SWF gives to its members, SWF suddenly becomes not broken anymore. That's why everyone is talking about buffing solo and killers to the level of SWF. Also, that's the only way for killers to be buffed against SWF, because unless solo is buffed DEVs won't buff killers, otherwise solo would be in an even worse state than now. Solo q and killers are in the same boat here. It has nothing to do with "rocket lauchers" in Halo...
I don't know why this simple idea is so hard to grasp for some people, really. Some people have too many phobias.
Post edited by Troman on1 -
Yes, I said people complaining about balance should be asking for SWF to be brought down to everyone else, not to buff solo survivors to where they’re on par or closer to already broken SWF. But I’m not one of the people complaining, so I’m not sure where you’re confused here. Hope that helps.
Im not really going to bother debating what qualifies a SWF as good or try hard etc etc we can just agree to disagree. But I will say a vast vast majority of them are not nearly as sweaty as you’re describing.
Kindred is a great perk. If you want it, take off one of your meta perks and run it.
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This^
It's very simple logic. "If you make everything equally broken, then it becomes normal"
And we have to make solos and killers "broken" aswell since you CAN'T tone down swf. Voice chat is just the ultimate tool debunking every perk. That's why groups like Marth88's depip squad went perkless and made every killer looking like a clown just by communicating important informations. Something which isn't possible in solo Q.
Im very suprised that people don't get it.
Post edited by DwightOP on1 -
Seeing where the killer goes even when even the hooked survivor cant see them is very very powerful..kindred as a perk is nearly broken..base kit its game breaking
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I agree with that. I'm against any aura readings of the opposite side, which gives too precise info. Survivors shouldn't see killer aura near the hook, but they should be able to tell if the killer is near or not. Just a simple: yes/no, without knowing what the killer is doing, where exactly he is and where he is heading to.
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Yes, I said people complaining about balance should be asking for SWF to be brought down to everyone else, not to buff solo survivors to where they’re on par or closer to already broken SWF. But I’m not one of the people complaining, so I’m not sure where you’re confused here. Hope that helps.
Are you not complaining because you believe that the balance between solos/SWF/killers are fine, or because you want other people to argue the point for you?
But I will say a vast vast majority of them are not nearly as sweaty as you’re describing.
It doesn't matter if the "vast vast majority" of SWF are not "sweaty." What matters, balance-wise, is whether the minority of SWFs who actually tries to win (or as you call it, are 'sweaty') ends up beating a similarly skilled opponents vast majority of the times on average. No one cares about the majority of players who are intentionally playing moronically, without self-restraint or self-control - they should not have any input in the overall balancing decision in the first place.
Kindred is a great perk. If you want it, take off one of your meta perks and run it.
The effect of Kindred is indeed great. The point that everyone is making is that this effect (and more) are given to SWF without having to take up a perk slot, so that they can keep one of their "meta perks" - as you put it. How is that fair?
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It’s not “given to SWF” though. It’s available to SWF, but a vast majority do not use it. Is it fair to the killer that sometimes they face groups who excel in teamwork and communication and make it almost impossible to win with some killers? Of course not. But is the answer to that problem to buff every survivor whether they’re SWF or not? No. That’s adorable and ridiculous.
Im not complaining about the lack of balance in some situations because, as I’ve said, it’s virtually impossible to balance without breaking the game down completely and rebuilding it. And that certainly doesn’t include giving every survivor free access to one of the strongest perks in the game 😆
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Even if you add Kindred base kit
As a solo survivor your still going to get unhooked and farmed in front of the killer by Davids for their BP stacks. And forever languish in torment as your team's Meg urban evasions across the corner of the map in an entirely different direction from the killer for 54 years
You know it to be true
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It’s not “given to SWF” though. It’s available to SWF, but a vast majority do not use it. Is it fair to the killer that sometimes they face groups who excel in teamwork and communication and make it almost impossible to win with some killers? Of course not. But is the answer to that problem to buff every survivor whether they’re SWF or not? No. That’s adorable and ridiculous.
You know what else is "available" to survivors? Working on generators. Looping. How about for killers? Hooking, slugging, camping/patrolling... pretty much any aspect of the game. Sure, some people may choose not to focus on generators, or choose not to loop the killers. Some killers may choose not to slug or camp or patrol. But do we avoid balancing the game for what players fail to do? Of course not. Then why do you think we should balance the game for these vast majority of SWF players who fail to communicate effectively?
The basics of balancing is this: You always balance the game based on what players are capable of doing, not on the majority's failures. For pretty much any game, you balance at the top to gauge the potential, and then balance down from there.
Im not complaining about the lack of balance in some situations because, as I’ve said, it’s virtually impossible to balance without breaking the game down completely and rebuilding it. And that certainly doesn’t include giving every survivor free access to one of the strongest perks in the game
And yet, SWF groups pretty much have that "free access" that you speak of. Sure, many fail to take advantage of it, but that's on them - it's their failure, not the game's. And if that's the case, why shouldn't solos have that same access? Why shouldn't killer be buffed enough to counteract it so that the strongest killer-players have a chance against the strongest SWF players?
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And I’ll just say again that you can scream “buff killers accordingly!!!” all you want and I’ll continue to ask what game you people have been playing these years to have faith that this is even possible and more importantly wouldn’t take BHVR seven years to achieve.
Idk what you’re going on about in regards to looping and generators. You’re bringing up SWF getting free access to Kindred info, the problem with balancing around that is that one, Kindred is still superior, and two, SWF groups aren’t utilizing their “free” info nearly as well as you make it seem. And certainly not enough to remake the entire game 😊
Theres zero logical reasoning behind the idea that every survivor should by default get access to something as powerful as Kindred. Again, take off your exhaustion perk or Adrenaline or Iron Will and put Kindred on.
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Honestly people underestimate what kindred gives aside from killer aura
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And I’ll just say again that you can scream “buff killers accordingly!!!” all you want and I’ll continue to ask what game you people have been playing these years to have faith that this is even possible and more importantly wouldn’t take BHVR seven years to achieve.
Then your problem is with the BHVR developers - and your distrust in their capability to adjust the killers' strength to be on par with SWF groups. Granted, it's understandable for you to feel that way given their history, but it doesn't take away from the fact that BOTH solos and killers need to be adjusted for the game to be properly balanced at the top.
the problem with balancing around that is that one, Kindred is still superior
I've already pointed out to you how SWF is much stronger in many ways than Kindred. Here, let me copy and paste it so that you can be reminded.
In addition, SWF still have advantages that Kindred doesn't. For example, let's say you are all far away from the hooked. Even if you are slightly closer than other survivors, you may want to finish your 90% generator first because you know that the killer has the PGTW perk equipped. As a solo with Kindred, you still have no way to relay that information to other randoms, while SWF can obtain that information even before the hooking happens, thereby getting into position much more quickly. Another example - even if you are farther away than the other survivors from the hook, you may have perks that may make up for that loss in time to get there, such as WMI (for non-camping killers) or BT (for camping/patrolling killers.) Again, no way to relay that to randoms as a solo, while SWF can take the initiative. Speaking of camping/patrolling killers, sometimes you actually may require two people to go rescue - one player as the new target and one player as the actual unhooker. Again, no way to communicate that to randoms, but SWF are able to do just that. You also spoke about traps earlier. It's true that sometimes Kindred can be helpful in the regard that everyone can see the trap-placing animation, but when you actually get close to the hooked, it's often difficult to determine exactly where it is so you are forced to slow down some, while SWF can simply direct where not to go. In addition, Kindred also only allows a Killer within a range of 16 meters to be shown, so even if the hooked survivor can see that the Killer has gone back to a strong chokepoint around the 20 meter range, there is no way to inform the survivor who is about to unhook you to not go in that direction. Again, good SWF can.
So in conclusion, even if Kindred is made base kit, it still certainly wouldn't make solos as strong as SWF - it would, however, bridge some of the massive gap between them at the highest level.
On the other hand, you have so far failed to provide exactly under what circumstances Kindred would be "superior" to SWF. Please provide detailed explanation about it.
two, SWF groups aren’t utilizing their “free” info nearly as well as you make it seem.
I've already pointed out to you how SWF players failing to utilize their communication advantage has nothing to do with balancing the game. Please reread what I've written in the post prior to this.
Theres zero logical reasoning behind the idea that every survivor should by default get access to something as powerful as Kindred. Again, take off your exhaustion perk or Adrenaline or Iron Will and put Kindred on.
Again, why should SWF have their access to "exhaustion perk or Adrenaline or Iron Will" in addition to having pretty much the same effect of Kindred without equipping it?
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There is one very simple thing to add into the game to buff all killers at once: 2nd must-do objective. This can be something very simple like "find and carry a canister of fuel to start fixing a generator" or something more complex.
With that, only the garbage killers (like clown, legion...) need Individual buffs. This can be done within 6 months of developing and some additional tweaking.
It's possible and not impossible like you want to picture it.
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You fail to understand the analogy.
If one player starts with RL in Halo, that's unarguably broken because it's unfair.
If everyone starts with a RL in Halo, it's not broken in a fairness sense because everyone has one, but it is broken in the sense that it changes fundamental design of the game. Core mechanics like shields, aiming, positioning, etc. become irrelevant.
It is the same thing here. If we buff solos and then buff killers it's like giving everyone a RL in Halo. In theory, it's balanced but the core game is going to be so different they might as well as made DBD2. Skill becomes irrelevant because any small mistake will be met with excessive punishments. Everything will be much much harder to counter. Tactics go out the window in favor of brute force.
Again just imagine every killer being as strong or stronger than pre-rework Nurse. That's basically going to be the situation. Every killer will be able to end a chase in less than 30 seconds almost guaranteed, and survivors will play so optimally if you somehow fail to meet that threshold as killer you will definitely lose with no ability to recover.
Explain how this is beneficial or fun for anyone?
Restrict SWF. That makes way more sense then gutting the game's already delicate balance to replace it with something that has not been tested. Again, the devs might as well just give us DBD2 if they are going to change that much about the game.
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You haven’t pointed anything factual out regarding Kindred vs SWF. Just your opinion. I’ve also detailed why Kindred is superior to SWF. Your reply is that it doesn’t matter that 99% of SWF don’t utilize communication well enough, I disagree because that is nonsense and not ideal for balancing a game. You’re welcome to disagree.
SWF gets access to some stuff for free because they can communicate. We’ve been over this already. Im still waiting on some logic as to why breaking the game somehow balances it. What are these mystical killer buffs that will account for the vast amounts of power all survivors will have now? A second objective? 😆😆
Again, adorable.
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You haven’t pointed anything factual out regarding Kindred vs SWF. Just your opinion.
Exactly what part of my argument do you believe is an opinion?
I’ve also detailed why Kindred is superior to SWF.
Either I've missed it or found your argument lacking and dismissed it - please copy and paste (as I have done for you) these reasons and circumstances you've apparently provided to believe that Kindred is better than SWF.
Your reply is that it doesn’t matter that 99% of SWF don’t utilize communication well enough, I disagree because that is nonsense and not ideal for balancing a game.
Just clamoring that something "is nonsense" doesn't actually support your side of your argument, you do realize that, right? Please explain why you believe it "is nonsense" and why you believe it "isn't ideal for balancing the game."
SWF gets access to some stuff for free because they can communicate.
Yes, and we are saying that this ability to communicate gives SWF a free advantage not available to solos. What is your point?
Im still waiting on some logic as to why breaking the game somehow balances it.
Clearly define "breaking the game" and I'll see what I can do for you.
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The day that killers are buffed to SWF power levels is the day the game will literally die.
It's not possible without breaking the game on several levels.
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Clearly you’re forgetting that solo survivors are buffed too 😆
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I just don't get how people can think it's feasible, or even possible.
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