NOED nerf compromise OR be nerfed into the ground
There's been talk about noed getting nerfed and talk about noed staying as it is. One thing which stands out is that noed is a frustrating perk to go against. It's almost shameful to equip it to begin with.
I like noed but I think it's due a nerf and when perks get nerfed to be less annoying, they tend to lose their function.
So here I am thinking of nerfs which will be less annoying but still as lethal at the end game.
Waiting 7 seconds for the noed cooldown to happen would mean the perk is more strategy based and not as crutch as it is deemed now. It would reduce the slug potential due to the fact that if you hit one Survivor down, for the next 7 seconds if you hit a survivor they will need 2 hits to go down or the 7 second cooldown to be complete.
This isn't a nerf noed thread, this is more of a I know noed will eventually be nerfed and when it is please make sure it's use remains, which is of course the insta downs once gens are completed.
And yes I know some Survivor perks need nerfs to break them out of the meta but that is irrelevant to my point however much I agree with you.
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Noed is fine lol
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While you say this isn't a nerf NOED thread, it is a nerf NOED thread.
NOED doesn't need changing because it's too strong or unfair, it's not.
It needs changes because it's unhealthy design that rewards you for survivors being lazy, not because you did anything skillful. This is why it doesn't need a "nerf". It simply needs to be reworked in a way to reward the killer for playing well.
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@GHOSTfaceP3 You can't deny that people want it nerfed though. Chances are it will be eventually.
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I could make the same point about any meta perk.
Nerf borrowed time in a way which keeps it's function of unhooking survivors safely when it eventually happens.
My use of the word nerf just means to make it something different to the current state however I'm stressing the importance of the function of the perk still existing and not butchered into a useless perk like MoM.
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I've already commented on this but let survivors know killer has NOED (Eg: all totems lit up) either instantly or after one gen has been done.
They do totems and it can be a decent anti-genrush perk as their attention is diverted from gens.
If they still don't do totems knowing the killer has NOED then they deserved to get punished in endgame.
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This isn't about whether you in particular want a perk to be nerfed, its whether you can see a perk at risk of a nerf and what you are ok with as a compromise.
I play a lot of killer and I still want to use noed post nerf. So I want the nerf or rework to be acceptable.
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But if the Survivors don't get the warning they'll know to ignore totems as they'll have no importance.
We should suggest ideas which are a compromise instead of pretending Noed is untouchable, because noed is a major source of frustration to Survivors and we all know which side speaks loudest in dbd. Just saying, I know noed will be useless if we don't come up with alternative ideas for it to work.
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"I could make the same point about any meta perk."
And so would I. I think this same thing about most of the current meta perks, but as you already stated in your original post, this isn't about them so we aren't bringing them up here.
"My use of the word nerf just means to make it something different to the current state"
However you want to phrase your wording it is still indeed a nerf.
"however I'm stressing the importance of the function of the perk still existing"
It's current function is bad and needs changing. What you're looking to change does nothing to address the problems with the perk.
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I don't think NOED needs nerfed. Survivors just need to cleanse totems or pay the price. The very fact that NOED exists will always be in the back of survivors heads as they play. "Should I cleanse the dull totem? ... well there is NOED, guess better safe than sorry". That line of thought nudges survivors just a little bit away from generators and we all know generator completion speeds are a problem. NOED has to be strong. Or there is no incentive other than some bloodpoints to break dull totems.
As far the OP's suggestion for a 7 second cooldown, it seems a little weird. Like when does it go on cooldown? When all the generators are done there is a 7 second delay before it activate? After you hit a survivor? Basic attack? Killer power? What if the survivor was already injured? After all, I didn't really "use" it if I attack an injured survivor right? The idea is just weird and confusing to me. 7 seconds isn't very long though. I wouldn't lose my mind if they did do something like that, but again... I think it is completely unnecessary.
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The only reason Survivors dislike noed is because it feels cheap and it doesn't require any skill to activate it. My change would not change anything except for the fact that it would have slightly stricter conditions which make it's effects happen (cooldown for instadown)
I could dress it as a rework but I doubt a rework would result in instadowns still being a thing with noed. It has to see a nerf of some kind.
The nerf I'm proposing is basically a gamble for the killer to instadown wait for cooldown then instadown again OR instadown injure injure injure get instadown back.
It would still give Survivors the initial surprise and put them on their feet instead of the balance of play completely shifting to the killers favour in which noed is known for.
Noed keeps it's function but with a slight condition which is nothing like what a real nerf would look like. I don't understand why you'd not want to compromise to silence those begging for it to be removed from the game entirely.
Same goes for other perks which are meta.
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The moment gens are done you can instadown instantly, except you must wait 7 seconds to instadown your next survivor. You can basic attack in this time and will injure the hit Survivor. The 7 second cooldown is basically a temporary window where instadowns won't happen.
The risk will be exactly the same to survivors it's just putting a more strategic twist on the killer side of it.
Noed is one of the perks which will be looked at soon whether you like it or not. I want it to revolve around skill a little more and I think this would be a fair compromise which doesn't destroy the perk one bit.
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"Noed keeps it's function but with a slight condition which is nothing like what a real nerf would look like."
I think this is trying to change what the definition of a nerf is. You're referring to a "real" nerf. This isn't a thing, it's just a nerf. The perk would do the same thing, you're just adding a cooldown on it.
If i put a cooldown on BBQ that would be a nerf, not a rework. Same scenario.
"I don't understand why you'd not want to compromise to silence those begging for it to be removed from the game entirely."
I never said I didn't want to compromise. I actually said the total opposite.
I said that the perk needs to be changed to reward the killer for being skillful, not free downs for the survivors being lazy.
Just throwing a cooldown on it doesn't really add skill to the perk and it stilll retains all the problems that make it unhealthy.
Not being literal, but speaking in relation to a general idea here...I'd like something such as if all the totems weren't cleansed when the last gen is powered, 3 random gens will reactivate. It's basically making them do 1 extra gen if they don't do totems.
This essentially still allows the perk to retain its purpose of being "anti gen rush", but instead of giving him free kills for no skill, it gives him more time to make skillful plays.
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But noeds function is to grant you with the potential to instadown once gens are done. You're basically creating your own perk, it's a rework suggestion which prolongs the game an insane amount for the sake of an ignored totem, the annoyance is why people want noed nerfed in the first place.
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No it won’t lol devs have said on very many streams/twitter/forums that there happy with noed
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"But noeds function is to grant you with the potential to instadown once gens are done."
And that is one of the fundamental flaws in the perk that needs reworking. It is getting you 1 hit downs for doing nothing.
"You're basically creating your own perk, it's a rework suggestion which prolongs the game an insane amount for the sake of an ignored totem, the annoyance is why people want noed nerfed in the first place."
Exactly, which is why I'm calling it a rework, not a nerf. It prolongs the game in a current balance where games already go to fast. That sounds pretty good. It's also not an insane amount of time, it's 1 gen. You're getting more time than that from Pop throughout a game. It still preserves the perks main purpose which is to punish gen rushers as well.
The annoyance of cleansing totems is absolutely not why people want noed nerfed at all. Very few people mind doing totems.
The reason they find NOED annoying is because they are getting 1 shot when the killer did nothing to earn it. It feels cheap.
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The only reason survivors don't like NoEd is because they don't want to do anything else other than loop the killer into oblivion or repair gens as fast as possible.
Killer plays with a handicap for the entire match, they earn the bonus if the survivors are lazy. You want fast matches, killers want fast kills. You both win with NoEd.
You act as if playing survivor takes much skill. It doesn't, all you need is a good awareness of the pallets and windows around you and to be able to look at the killer while he's chasing you. Playing survivor is much easier and less stress filled than playing Killer.
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You literally just said Survivors are too lazy to do totems and now you say they're just annoyed about being instadowned cheaply. Survivors dislike noed for many reasons.
Killers feel shame for running noed and that literally says it all. If it needs a rework or a nerf then I think coming up with an alternative idea which gives the killer lethality once gens are done are the way to go.
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I know. Survivor is easy mode which is exactly why I don't want noed to be nerfed or reworked in a way which completely renders it useless. Survivors are the vocal majority and they want noed removed from the game in some cases.
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As if the game isn't already easy enough for Survivors. No way does NOED need a nerf. It's called not rushing Generators and actually cleansing Totems.
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If the Devs remove NoEd it will be proof enough they don't care about Killers and I hope that Killers would quit en masse.
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Couple things. First, you are making two massive and likely incorrect assumptions. You are assuming that NOED will be nerfed. There is absolutely no basis for this assertion. BHVR has on several occasions said the opposite. "there are no plans to nerf NOED at this time". Maybe not an exact quote, but close enough. Sure, "at this time" leaves room for change in the future. But there have been cries for NOED nerfs for as long as I've played and the official stance has been pretty consistent.
You are also assuming that your preemptive attempt to mitigate or control how the hypothetical NOED nerf will somehow actually matter. As if the devs sit around and have conversations like "Oh, I saw this great idea on the forum. Let's do it exactly the way that person suggested." That is not to say that they don't listen or care. But I can't think of a single example of a suggestion I've seen posted on the forums being implemented exactly the way the forum poster suggested. It just doesn't happen. Plenty of people have suggested "nerf ruin" for example, but no one ever suggested they nerf it in the way that they did.
You never answered any of my questions. "Instadown" isn't an actual game term. Perks associated with exposed work off of basic attacks. Killer's powers don't interact with exposed status effects.
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NOED doesn't need anything doing to it.
If you're the type of killer that can't handle gen speed, the bring NOED, bloodwarden and remember me. See how they like their gen rushing then.
I am wrong, the only thing NOED needs doing to it, is bones
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While i think noed is fine, its a powerful perk that can be totally removed from the game before it has any effect on the game, i think there is a small change that might make it less "unfair"
Make it a token perk, where like bbq, you gain a token for each different survivor hooked. When noed activates you have instadowns for however many tokens you have.
While i dont think it needs it, that change would be ok for me
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"You literally just said Survivors are too lazy to do totems and now you say they're just annoyed about being instadowned cheaply."
Saying that survivors can get lazy and skip doing totems =/= them hating doing totems. Those are not synonymous. They are simply seeing the shortest distance between them and victory and that includes skipping totems. Them skipping totems has nothing to do with liking or disliking them.
As I said, the reason they hate NOED is because they are getting instadowned when the killer did nothing to earn it.
"Killers feel shame for running noed and that literally says it all. If it needs a rework or a nerf then I think coming up with an alternative idea which gives the killer lethality once gens are done are the way to go."
They feel shame because even they know they are getting the kills undeserved and for doing nothing. They can tell it feels cheap. They feel shame in using it for the exact same reason the survivors hate it. Yet now you are suggesting a change that literally ignores the reason both sides dislike it entirely. Your change isn't addressing the problem.
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"Instadown" isn't an actual game term. "Successful basic attack" is likely the closest thing you would see. I doubt it would distinguish healthy or injured survivor. Which means if you hit an injured survivor then you would lose one of your tokens. I think this is a better suggestion than the OP's but again I don't think NOED needs nerfed. It's okay that survivors don't like it. They don't need to like everything killers do.
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NoEd is completely fine
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There is only one thing I'd like to see happen to NOED. I would like them to add a prerequisite to its activation.
- Once the killer has obtained his 5th hook (Could be 4th), the entity rewards his efforts by creating a special totem that is added to the map when the final gen is completed.
- This totem is added to the map no matter how many totems remain.
Yes, this means there is no more defeating NOED by clearing all the totems. Instead, the killer is rewarded for getting several hooks in the game. What this would do is make NOED dependable for many killers, but it would also hose over campers and tunnelers who rely on NOED to secure extra kills. I've seen many groups destroyed because Bubba is face camping again and they hit the gens, which is the prescribed way to defeat the camp, only to see 2-3 more go down to NOED. Bubba would need to spread the love to get NOED to spawn, so face camping 1-2 survivors won't cut it.
Would this make NOED too strong? Possibly. It would need to be tested. The ability to get NOED with 5 hooks no matter how many totems remain could be a pretty powerful situation. 5 Hooks is not that hard in most matches either.
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NOED doesn't need to be nerfed at all. It's existence is controlled entirely by survivors.
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Just do bones. No need for nerf or buff. You can't do bones, then it's your problem, not a balancing problem.
If they nerf NoEd they should nerf DS and BT during EGC.
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No problem, fix gen speeds and you can nerf NOED. At this point i basically have to run it every game because 2-3 gens pop in the first 2 minutes.
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noed is fine, it has plenty of counters. but if I need to, a compromise to me would be to make it need skill. something like x amount of hooks or whatever. HOWEVER, Adrenaline also needs to be more skillful or I riot.
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Something to be done about noed ?
Oh boi do I have the solution for you !!!
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While I believe NOED is shameful to even equip, I do believe that it's balanced because it's a hex perk that (in my experience) goes down in about 30 seconds after downing a survivor. Also it's kinda meant for new killers anyway, or killers trying out a new character, but it does suck when a good player uses it.
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NOED is not fine and not fair.
Its literally a DS for killers.
NOED rewards you for failing at protecting gens, without having any conditions other than 1 dull totem surviving.
DS rewards you for getting caught again in the 60s, doesnt matter if you got tunneled or are doing a gen in the killers face.
NOEDs power should be based on amount of hooks/downs/whatever you did before it activates, so that it requires you to play well and not just be losing the game.
DS should disable as soon as survivor starts doing objectives or there are no other targets remaining. The timer should be paused while in a chase, so that its an anti tunneling perk and not unconditional immunity for 60s.
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Fair, but why not also change generators like with Scott jund's idea? Noed is a crutch right now because gens fly so quickly that it's gone from late game insurance to essential for getting a 4k unless going against rank 20s. And if they don't want the wrath of Mr skeletal when they want to escape but it can be ignored by doing tribute to me bones and that seems bad for killers, but that's what ruin used to be it would distract the survivors from gens for like 30 seconds so the killer can slow down the game by hooking somebody.
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NOED is perfectly fine. Only counter to insane gen speeds. Gens can be done in 4-3 mins and its only chance to get some kills. After gen speeds are normal and not OP then we can speak about NOED.
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As a survivor main, it does feel cheap, but it doesn't require any skill to cleanse totems either. You can't really be mad if it proxes because you failed to incorporate totems into your to-do list.
It's fine where it is. The fact that it's a totem perk makes it super weak tbh. A good team should always aim to cleanse all totems and if you're so worried about NOED playing solo, run a totem finding perk or bring a map. It gives an alternate objective and element of fear to the game not knowing if the killer is running it or not. Better safe than sorry, though.
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It fine just destroy totem
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Agree destroy totem
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Agree man
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Gen speeds are not iNsAnE. If you got 0 hooks for the entire game then you should have no right to NOED. Even with current gen speeds.
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NOED is has literally the strongest protection out of all Hex perks.
If using NOED feels cheap then we should change it so it doesnt. There shouldnt be a perk that rewards you for not doing your job the entire game.
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Honestly, add a totem counter and then it's entirely the survivors fault, as there's no excuse of not knowing how many were down.
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Lol. Look at some of the names defending it.
”NOED is fine. A bad killer getting a few free kills is fine. However DS and BT need to go!! The survivor should not be granted an extra chance to live a little longer!!!!”
There is some real hypocrisy involved in defending NOED but complaining about BT/DS. Really shows a bias
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NOED should be buffed to make survivors cleanse totems and not only doing gens. Gen rush needs a quick fix and buffing NOED is the answer.
Stop being so lazy that you can't even cleanse totems only doing gens. Some survivors simply loves doing gens and nothing more.
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These threads pop up a lot every now and then, but I dislike perks that reward failure. NoeD is once such perk. I would rather run a perk that rewards my success as a killer not my incompetence.
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If you dont like noed just do totems, there are plenty of perks and items to help you find totems, so you cant say they are hard to find. For the majority of the game the killer is playing with three perks, noed only comes up when all gens are done or if the hatch is closed before the gens are done. Noed was nerfed a while back to be allocated to a totem, and that balanced it. You have to remember when playing survivor, there is an actual person playing killer, its not a computer. You arent supposed to escape every game, if this game continues to shift towards nerfing every killer perk that doesnt let survivors live every game (or they find "unfun" to play against) nobody will want to play killer. Wait times for games will continue to rise, difference between skill level will be greater to try to compensate for lack of killers. (Skill level not rank, the devs even said rank doesnt equal skill) there are plenty of perks that killers find unfun to go against but you dont here constant complaints about them. They are only brought up when survivor mains who don't play killer enough complain about perks. Don't say "i play killer too, i don't only play survivor" because the key word is enough. Take a couple days and ONLY play killer; multiple games, different killers, and different builds. You'll see how frustrating it is and you'll see why noed isn't as good as you thunk it is.
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Right
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Rather then seeing it as rewarding the killer for doing poorly, you should see it as punishing the survivors for doing poorly, which is what it is.
If survivors think they can just do gens quickly and get out, and just ignore the potential thread of NoeD that is always present, that is their choice and risk to take, pushing survivors to do totems is a good thing for the game's health in general.
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