General Discussions
General Discussions
Red pill time, map changes (clarified) will fix nothing
As the title says this whole "Map changes are the answer!" Sentiment is a pipe dream...this game has gotten no better from the map changes..everything is the same as it's always been..this game has been steadily declining since the devs started their little campaign to dismantle everything killers use..we cant enjoy nurse anymore, ruin is gone, anti gen perks are now being singled out by the devs and all survivors got was a minor toolbox nerf.
And yes I do mean minor..all they did was repurpose how toolboxes are used..gens still fly by fast as ever, everything survivors need to do can be sped up to asinine levels and theres no stopping it regardless of what you run..now the new mmr system will make playing killer a certified nightmare at high ranks..yet the devs are in no hurry to go with their grand balancing plan..it just becomes more amd more distasteful to even give them due credit because for every cool thing they do..they tarnish 2 more things..wake up or this game will go out like a candle is all I can say..licensed dlc cant make up for a terrible experiance..
Edit: let me clarify now that I'm not livid..the map sizes wont magically make non viable killers viable, map changes are a nice touch however it's too long term and not even enough to fix the real issues..go play leatherface on a new map compared to say the game..you'll notice he gets his butt kicked just as much as he ever has..I dont want gen times brought up..however if they stay as is..killer quality needs to spike up significantly. Doctor, oni, spirit, billy..these right here are the gold standards of killers..now theres a few that just need tiny tweaks to perfect , other need a lot more..we know who they are..I just tire of the map reworks that very very slowly are coming being viewed as the answer when I will tell you now they wont..I've been here over 2 years..I've seen many things come and go..and yet we are still where we are..Hipefully this satisfied
Comments
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Even the slightest map change (this includes change of loop variables) can have huge impacts on the outcome of a match. The harvester loop (to name a sample) used to be quite a pain to mess with. However the devs nerfed Balanced Landing AND repositioned the hay allowing killers to either just use the vault to catch the survivor or even jump on the hay allowing some killers to straight up instadown survivors trying to loop the harvester:
So yes, map changes can (and most likely will) change a lot in the long run. It just takes a lot of time.
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Lol watch otz hillbilly vid when every survivor was in arms reach the whole game and gens still flew..then you'll know why I say what I do..gens still go by way too fast on the new maps which are the devs modeling plan..and even then..what? We wait six years for map reworks which solve nothing at all? Lol
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Theoretically map changes would help a bit, probably more than any single change. That only works if it's applied properly, however. Breakable walls sounded like a great way to shorten pseudo infinites, but they turned into a design paradigm, so the saloon instead has about 50 walls where any other map would've had doors, meaning the killer has to break most of them just to MAKE a passable loop to run to begin with. Makes me suspicious of any changes they may make (maps are smaller... Oh, and we added 10 extra gens to every map)
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Oh, how original, another "killers are oppressed" thread.
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What video are you referring to?
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Coming from the stereotype "lul I got nothing to add but uh..no" response..
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Map changes definitely do a lot and have the potential to make all the difference. Sometimes, one chase can decide whether you win the game or not. I had matches where I made one small mistake during a chase, which cost me a lot of time as the survivor was able to run me around for quite a bit more. Of course I can't know for sure, but sometimes I really did feel like if I hadn't made that one mistake, I could have gotten 3 or 4 kills instead of only 1.
So if pallets become less safe, that alone makes a huge difference, because you'll be able to down survivors a bit faster at average. If big maps also become smaller, than that just improves killers even more. I also think it's hard to argue that some of the newer maps aren't much better for killers than older maps. If the devs continue to balance maps around the balance level of some of the newer maps, killers will be in a really good spot.
I get that many killers in this game are still too weak, but this game does have some viable killers as well. And with maps being better for killers, I don't see how nothing will improve for killers. Hell, if more maps become much more balanced, I think some killers like Freddy and Hillbilly will need some small nerfs, becauise they are already pretty strong.
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At the end of the day despite the short gen distances the saloon map gets gen cranked like any other map..shows theres a deeper issue
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My friend went afk to take a #########. Almost got out the exit gate but he ran into a wall while trying to navigate blindly out the exit while still on the throne.
That's how easy survivor is.
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Lol I've yet to die on the saloon before the gens finished...against a Billy no less
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Which video do you mean? I would like to see that video.
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It was from a bit ago..hmm..I remember it was on a yamaoka nap as Billy..but I cant remember the title..was def gen related
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Hillbilly on yamaoka map, the thumbnail was gen related...youd have to dig as I cant recall the title sorry
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Map changes ARE how you fix it
compare father campbell's to rotten fields for example
its painfully obvious
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Maps that are tailored to killer's playstyle work very well.
I had a Hag with her wallhack add-on in that massive cornfield level, and no one got out alive.
Same map with Clown is a blowout.
The issue is when you try to slot their square into a circular hole. Doesn't fit. More steps need to be taken with individual killers.
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Ok I've seen the video now. Here's the Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LxbAg2SioWI
I should probably mention that Yamaoka is a map that many people seem to agree to be rather survivor sided, with it's huge size, safe pallets and good stealth. It's only downside is that it can sometimes have areas with very few pallets, depending on rng. So that maps is hardly campareable to some of the newer maps like the Saloon map. On a more balanced map, killers have more counterplay at loops, and just as importantly, don't have to patrol such a big area to defend gens.
However, ignoring that in this case, because this is Billy, and he suffers from unbalanced maps much less than other killers, Otz still ends up with a 4k. He also starts out really good, and during that only one gen gets repaired. But then somewhere in the middle of the match, he stops downing anyone and messes up quite often, so naturally gens get repaired much faster. And he still ends up with a 4k. Even if the last two survivors wouldn't have messed up, he would have still ended up with a 2k.
So when taking the maps balance and how the actual match plays out into consideration, this video shows in absolutely no way that gens are a problem what so ever.
Hell, I would even argue that video perfectly illustrates how map balance can improve this game's balance perfectly well and make gen speed a non-existing balance issue, because you can clearly see that when killers can down frequently enough, and apply enough map pressure, gens get slowed down more than enough. And all killers need is a chance to do so. They shouldn't be guaranteed to always be able to down survivors fast enough so they can always get their 4k. You need to keep in mind that just like killers want a chance to win a match, so do survivor teams want a fair chance to win a match, which means 3 or 4 man escapes.
Edit: Crap, nevermind, it's the wrong video. This is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DggcHI1boFM
Haven't fully watched it yet, but all I can say there is that this map is still not nearly as balanced as other maps in this game, like some of the newer ones, that for some reason he doesn't get a down that he should have at one of the pallets, and that he got hit by DS once.
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Map changes won't solve everything, because certain killers don't care about map layouts. Some killers its an improvements, others it makes them weaker, others it does nothing.
We need to get out of this mentality that all killers play the same, have the same problems, use the same perks, have to deal with the same mechanics as each other because we don't. All survivors are the same....literally, only difference being size and skins. And the only way you can make a survivor unique is by using perks which any survivor can use.
^ Killers are not clones. You can't just balance the game around one aspect and expect all killers to fare the same way. Now gen times have been an issue long before ruin was nerfed, its just that the nerf brought our attention to it and made it stand out WAAAAY more. Now imagine before the ruin nerf....not running ruin.....and feeling the gen speed time. Its still the same time....and we've been complaining about it for long before the ruin nerf and the devs don't listen. We talked about adding extra objectives and what not, we talked about perks, we talked about maps, we talked about toolboxes, we talked about hexes, but the only suggested fixes the devs ever implement are bandaid perks (when they aren't nerfing them) and toolboxes (which were never an issue to the overall). Or completely breaking the game with goofy ass suggestions like the sabo changes.....
Toolboxes exacerbate the problem of gen times, but you can get gen smashed without toolboxes.......
And Bandaid perks are just that....bandaids. Every single killer in this game has at least 1 or 2 or in some cases 4 or 5 useless add ons....why not fix the problem by giving those killers useful add ons that give them something to combat gen times? Cause I'm telling you right now, fixing maps isn't going to do anything but put killers who are already ahead, even further ahead. Meanwhile the rest of the roster feels nothing and continues to complain about gen times.
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I think most of what you’re saying is true but the whole “We can’t enjoy Nurse now, impossible to play her” thing is getting very overrated now. I’ve been a Nurse Main for about 2-3 months now and honestly, she is as playable as she was before. Sure, she has some bugs that need fixing desperately but whole reworking her power and addons were so needed and I appreciate the addons a lot more now. (Hooray! No 5 blink nurse!)
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Not even vested in this topic because people have given all the reasons you're incorrect about your assumption, but just from a debate/argument perspective, it's pretty bad to continually reference a video as proof of your point, then when asked for a link to said video you can't produce it, to the point where someone else finds it, and it doesn't even support your point.
I mean, if you wanted your assumption to seem lazy, ill-conceived, and poorly constructed, that would do it.
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There isnt really nothing to add, these threads by themselves are hot garbage with no other purpose than to appeal to the main users of the forums, killer mains.
Your thread by itself doesnt really add anything, its just your typical "WAAAAH WAAAH DEVS HATE US AND TAKE AWAY THE FUN FROM US", you said absolutely nothing regarding maps besides "they wont fix anything" and "lmao redpill xd"
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I would argue most of the killers that are already powerful will profit less from map reworks than most of the weaker killers. Hillbilly will profit from smaller maps, but not quite as much as other killers, and while he profits from pallets becoming less safe, he also gets hurt by maps having a higher pallet density because it's more likely for survivors to get to a pallet in that case before he can instadown you with his chainsaw.
Spirit and Nurse completely don't care for how safe pallets are, so pallets becoming less safe does nothing for them, they only profit from smaller maps.
Doctor sometimes actually profits from loops being bigger as he has more time to catch up if a survivor is forced to run around a loop another time, so he as well mainly only benefits from smaller maps. Though he would most likely profit from more mindgameable loops a bit as well.
Oni and Freddy are the two strong killers that will most likely profit the most of more balanced maps.
However, a lot of the weaker killers will profit more from balanced maps. Staying injured will become more risky if pallets in general become less safe. So map reworks alone might make killers like Wraith, Legion, Myers or Ghostface actually viable. Maybe not Legion but the others.
There's no doubt though that map balancing alone won't do the trick. Of course killers need to be balanced individually as well. Leatherface for example will profit less from map reworks because of the same reason that Billy will profit less from map reworks. If maps become much more balanced, some killers might also need some small nerfs, Freddy in particular. Of course, maps can affect the power of killers differently as well, especially a killer like Huntress, but that's something that can't really be avoided, and isn't a problem as well in my opinion.
However, changing the objective time of survivors would have the same problem as map balancing because the balance gap between killers is so different. Personally, killers and maps need to be balanced properly, and if done right, at some point this game will be in as good of a balance state as it could possibly get.
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I explained simply why they dont work..glasses may be useful
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Both maps are still heavily survivor favored..so it's not that big a difference
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Then you dont play competant survivors much..shes far from what she was
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Where? All you said is nothing has changed and some crap about toolboxes and gen speeds, nothing about maps.
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There you go..gen speeds..map changes mean nothing if the gens still fly too fast in coordinated situations..congrats you finally caught up
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Or maybe hes just good at the game and didnt need to use op
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Trust me, I get lots of SWF and “competent” survivors. Nurse is all about predictions. If you fail to notice what they’re doing and predict them, then you’re going to have to trouble with Nurse. High risk, high reward killer; lots of skill and experience is needed.
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So now that I watched the entire video, I have to say that these gens really did go very fast, but it does not show in any way that balancing maps won't solve this problem.
First of all, he managed to win at the end nevertheless. So even against survivors that can do gens that effectively, there seems to be a chance to win against them. Now you could probably argue that the survivors didn't play optimally in chases, but that's just the point: If you balance maps enough so that killers have a fair chance of downing survivors fast enough, you still have a chance to win just like Otz still did at the end of the video, even with one generator left.
So as I mentioned in my other post, Yamaoka isn't really a balanced map, and can't be compared to maps like the new Saloon map or the Chapel map, which are far more balanced in this game. The survivors were also using two ridiculously good toolboxes, with addons that increased their usage duration and their repair speed even further as well. These toolboxes are not nearly as much of a problem now anymore, which is good. And yes, they definitely did have an impact on the gen speed of Otz's match in that video.
Last but not least, he was using two pretty bad perks. Pop Goes the Weasel would have made much more of a difference in that match.
So yeah, this video also doesn't prove to me that gens are a problem that balanced maps can't fix.
Survivors need a chance to win as well in the end.
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Dude, you don't explain in any way in your main post how more balanced maps won't improve the balance for killers. Like absolutely no where. You just say that map balance won't help and that's it, like we are all just supposed to blindly agree with you.
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I am not seeking approval..just to get people to stop believing what isnt true
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Chases..nuff said..I tire of trying to explain the obvious
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Spare me..I mained nurse as well
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Maybe..but even good doesnt cut it anymore
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I dont recall referencing the vid in my thread..I merely used it as an example for later comments..never intended to use the vid in the first place
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His point still stands.
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Theres no point to be had..
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What? You aren't explaining jack sh*t. Just look at your posts. You are just making ridiculous, killer biased statements about this game's balance and that's it. Meanwhile other people are trying to actually explain and argue why they disagree with you. But you seem to just ignore any arguments and believe that you know everything about this game's balance 100% correctly.
I mean, I explained why this video doesn't prove to me that this game's balance can't be achieved with map balancing and keeping gen times the way they are now. And I gave you enough arguments. And I don't expect you to agree with me and completely change your mind just because of my post. But then posting nothing more than "chases" in order to argue I am wrong and behaving like you know everything better and are 100% correct about the game's balance is just petty and ridiculous. Especially then when you claim that you have explained why you don't think map balance will help this game. Like what the actual hell.
I for one am pretty sure you are just not that good with killer, can't deal with losing at all, and want guaranteed 4ks every single game. And I absolutely hate when some people say that killer mains all just want guaranteed 4k's every game. Because that's not fair and just not true. But it's people like you why some people argue that all killers mains just want 4ks every game.
It's a relief that the majority doesn't really approve of your viewpoints though, because I feel like if you would be in charge for this game's balance, we'd be forced to sit through 2 hour killer queue times whenever we want to play as killer.
Just out of curiosity though, what killer on what map would you consider a balanced matchup, so that the killer has a chance to win even against really good survivor teams?
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And I think your too busy following the devs and what they say..I am not feeling the most enthused at the moment and all you said was "well its yamaoka" and even admitted the team itz went against threw the game..and do forgive me if I dont pity the side of the community that ruins the match via hook suicide and dc regularly and when it doesnt happen my survivor experience is boring so please do explain how the new maps have shown any sign of improvement ?
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Very well as you wish..it comes down to a simple observation I have..even the most " killer sided" maps have no real difference in feel when it comes to gen times..I feel no different vsing a killer on the new map than most other maps despite the gens being fairly close together , every killer feels like they have the same issues holding them back..some killers in the upper tiers feel decent but the rest dont feel any less underwhelming based on the map itself..so it seems to me that the map updates will have no real effect except limiting their design as you put it on the dev stream..and even if I felt it was the answer a couple map reworks a year is a long time for a game to approach a healthier state. Then you look around and everything just feels so bleh..patch after patch anything killer meta has been hammered regardless of any feedback given..as listed above nurse, ruin, the removal of perk synergy..I see a lot of taking but not replacing
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“Maps changes won’t help”
But you don’t explain why you think that, instead you go into a rant about how the game has “ruined” things for you. I say you, because not every player who plays killer feels as you do.
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Yeah, breakable walls are just infinites if you don't break them. There's no choice or decision or even certain walls that you don't want to break, just break the wall or have the most painful match of your life.
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Just many I suppose
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Are you actually serious?
Your very second post in this thread is you talking about an Otz video with hillbilly. Here's the post.
"Lol watch otz hillbilly vid when every survivor was in arms reach the whole game and gens still flew..then you'll know why I say what I do..gens still go by way too fast on the new maps which are the devs modeling plan..and even then..what? We wait six years for map reworks which solve nothing at all? Lol"
Then both Yamaoka and ad19970 both asked you what video you were referencing and here was your response.
"Hillbilly on yamaoka map, the thumbnail was gen related...youd have to dig as I cant recall the title sorry"
Ringing a bell?
Seriously, why would you even bring up the video at all if you knew you couldn't reference it? This is like saying "well statistics say that I'm right cause X" and when someone asks for those statistics you say "oh well I don't know where they are".
I mean this is textbook texas sharpshooter Fallacy with the added bonus of not even being able to produce the evidence you're using to cherry-pick. As someone who studies this kind of stuff as part of my job it's just stunning really.
Again, I don't even care about the topic cause plenty of people have already explained to you why map size and layout does matter, quite significantly. If you don't believe that what you're telling me is you don't mind getting Disturbed Ward over Hawkins for example.
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Map changes would do wonders. I had a ormond match today vs SWF. Next to the killer shack were 3 good loops all with pallets. They were perfectly staggered so one could run them and be at the central building to run those loops.
I tried trapping it up but that only hindered me as I watched them DH iver the traps or disarm while I chased another one.
Yeah, map tweaking would go a long way in helping pressure gens.
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Disturbed ward ? Your comparing the most broken building in dbd to hawkins..that's got nothing to do with map size..and you say I'm cherry picking, honestly your just here to stir things more so I'll leave you to whatever this is..I already explained everything in another post so have fun and time will prove what I'm saying..two years of experiance will tell you a lot
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It wont magically make non viable killers viable..the new maps prove that much..nothing has changed due to the new maps existing..dont get me wrong I'll take it over rotten fields just for the quality of gameplay alone however the gen speeds dont falter..if it doesnt do that then theres little point...I'm saying people are putting too much faith in something that has shown very little effectiveness at helping the issue
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Really? The fact that Disturbed Ward is huge with extremely spread out generators is a factor compared to Hawkins which is tiny, indoors, and has generators in close proximity? Has nothing to do with map size you say? Um, care to tell me what it DOES have to do with then?
"you say I"m here cherry picking"
Well you're sitting here making a statement with one supposed video as your evidence, without even producing said video, so actually no you're not cherry picking, you're just straight making stuff up actually, my mistake.
"honestly your just here to stir things more so I'll leave you to whatever this is"
I don't know if trying to educate someone on how to argue a point properly is "stirring things up more" but clearly my lesson fell on deaf ears. Shame, if you actually absorbed some of why your statements are so logically fallacious you might actually be able to convince people you're right once in a while. Oh well. I'll just leave this here for you when you grow up.
"I already explained everything in another post so have fun and time will prove what I'm saying..two years of experiance will tell you a lot"
Actually you explained nothing in this post which is the one we're all reading, so can we just chalk that up to the same place as this phantom video you wanted to reference?
Also, seriously dude? I've been playing longer than you, and I've hit rank 1 multiple times over the time I've been playing. This sad appeal to authority just made you look even more like a petulant child who doesn't know what they're talking about.
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Dont pretend you know me dude...you know nothing about me..and I have better things to do than see you make assumptions based off nothing but some magical expertise you claim to have, so do you have something meaningful to say or are you just here to pick fights ?
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