Otzdarva’s stream today
So Otz set out to prove that NOED is overpowered and more importantly - unfair. As everyone who doesn’t play one side exclusively would tell you.
He decided to play like 90%+ of the EU servers, that being proxy camp, tunnel and NOED.
He was shocked to find that he won game after game after game after game after game. No effort, no skill required, just proxy camp to bait the unhook then tunnel mercilessly with NOED as back up. The survivors all had their “broken” perks, DS, BT etc but it wasn’t enough to escape. He was using Legion too who most people try to claim isn’t a viable killer.
Now you can try to put it on the survivors saying they should “rush gens etc” but you’ve likely got people who just want to unhook their friend so they can enjoy the game, or solos who just want to pip so they NEED the unhook as the game requires you to get it.
This isn’t a shock one bit. I’ve said it many times. Killer takes no skill. Camp, tunnel, NOED and you’ll do really well in most of your games with no effort required.
Now only at the very end did one team manage to escape. He played daft on purpose I think 2/3 made it out, would have been 2 but he purposefully let one go so that would have been a tie. It took a combination of DS and luck offerings for kobes to make it happen. Know why the last team did so well? Because they were a swf, one on the hook told the rest to just rush gens. So one took the sacrifice for the team. That means the gameplay consisted one one person queuing for 7 mins in the lobby just to sit on a hook for 2 mins and be out of the game with a depip. The others just had to hold M1 and hope the gens were done before their friend died. Killer mains in their effort to try and justify winning at any cost say this is fine but we all know its just garbage. Nobody wants to play like that because it’s not fun nor exciting.
I don’t expect anyone here to agree. Forum is mostly full of the most biased killer mains who try to justify anything so long as it favours their side. Otz explains perfectly why NOED is cheap and needs a change. Anyone but the most biased players can see it.
So I guess this is for the dev team. The question is are you willing to be brave enough to shake up the game? Or will fear or change leave it in the state that its in. Killers want more time, survivors want less tunneling. The nature of the game should change based on that.
In b4 “legit strategy” “balanced perk”
Comments
-
Now imagine adding Mori's to the mix
30 -
TBH until they change the objective and make it actually take brainpower and therefor more time, we need something to counter 3 minute games.
I don't use NOED myself as a Nurse main, but I get why it needs to be in the game right now. It's the only chance some killers get if they go against meta teams from bad matchmaking.
27 -
Not really. Swf are the main problem for gen rushing and swf are the only ones that will effectively counter this playstyle due to voice communication and one person willing to sir on the hook for the full 2 minutes to buy their friends time. Solos will waste time going to check out the hook first or sometimes when they realize they’re being camped they’ll give up on hook early.
7 -
Otz finally did it. I'm still probably gonna read hundreds of "do bones" a day.
15 -
Exactly how I feel. I love playing killer. I want killers to get buffs and buffs and buffs and feel strong again. I know it's ridiculous that at rank 1 almost all the games feel like the survivors win. But NOED isn't the answer. Get rid of NOED being powerful and give them something else. No one likes NOED! I don't even know why people defend that. Outside of killer only players, no one likes it. I'd match rather lose a game because the killer is strong. Then win the game easily and then get NOED'd and 1 hooked. And it happens game after game after game.
6 -
NOED is basically the only second chance perk that killers get and it's easily counterable. Delete DS and Adrenaline and I'd be fine with NOED going too
43 -
I mean, you could just cleanse totems...
27 -
And there it is. Can't have a normal conversation without these people.
36 -
If the killer is heavily outskilled, how is a perk that gives them a good chance against them healthy at all. I would prefer they focus on fixing matchmaking than keep up the facade that NOED is perfectly healthy and balanced but is really a bandaid to make killers feel less worse about themselves.
7 -
He purposely made some games reach endgame and then survivors still refused to finish last gen and died. He did try facecamping with LF and then finishing off with noed against survivors that tried to save few times.
Overall he had one, maybe two, if you count clown game where he actually threw the game by tunnelling one girl but survivors threw harder, where noed even came into play.
Otz just usually finishes the game before endgame even happens. Everything you said you pulled from around 6-7 games from which two actually reached endgame.
Survivors most of the time play altuistic because it's more fun that way, hardcamping is working exactly because of it. He didn't prove anything nor you should use it to prove anything.
And he finished on: Maybe Noed is too OP but maybe camping is too OP instead. He also summed it up: All second chance perks should be gone from the game just like cheap things so that includes DS, BT, Unbreakable, Keys, Moris, Noed, and so on. Take your pick but don't change the story to fit your narrative.
28 -
One team did exactly that while Otz was busy camping/tunneling out one survivor. They got the totems but the time spent looking and cleansing meant they didn’t have time to get all the gens done then as it was quickly down to a 3 vs 1
You knew that though didnt you? You just dont care so long as you get the free hooks :)
14 -
But we want to smash the gens and get out in 5 minutes flat to get back in queue! We don't do totems unless Devour Hope activates!
5 -
NOED is not overpowered, its overpowered by the fact that there is no totem counter for solo players. imagine going to a swf team being solo get 1 or 2 totems dont know if there is still others up.
If anything put NOED in Base kit and add the totem counter.
4 -
Of course it's OP, did we need a streamer to prove that?
Next he will do an experiment to see if Ebony Mori's are OP. I wonder what the results will be......
10 -
Even if things like camping and NOED aren't OP (I personally don't think they are) they make for pretty unheathy and unfun gameplay and should be further discouraged by game design changes.
Here's the thing though. Just like devs constantly need to evaluate why people DC (besides people who just DC at the slightest sign of inconvenience) they also need to evaluate why people camp or play in unfun ways,besides just salty people who would be unsportsmanlike anyway. I think they're doing a good job with the map and gen changes, but I think there's still room for improvement on both sides.
1 -
That's my theory as well. Killers are spreading this "do bones" propoganda in order to get survivors to waste time and make life as killer easier. Pretty clever, I will admit.
7 -
Just saying the truth. Be ready for it and just cleanse totems. If you hate NOED so much, use that one perk that helps you find the totems.
3 -
Hey, OP, Videos and similar things from Streamers are only permitted when at least 3 Gens get done in 4 minutes!
10 -
I call that a bad execution. It should only take 1 survivor to ge totems. Other 2 get gens while the last one gets chased.
4 -
Isn't salty people the only reason? It's the only reason I see on the forums or from the scant amount of replies I get from killers on xbox.
1 -
That's not what most people want. People want the game to go back to the healthy state it was once in. Where killers didn't run NOED to win games. Believe it or not. Killers used to be able to get multiple hooks in a game and keep the game competitive. They were strong and it was a challenge to beat them. And back in those times no rank killer would be running around with NOED on.
I defend NOED right now even if I hate it. I completely understand why people are using it. Doesn't make it any less annoying though. It sucks a lot.
I'd much rather have games that people got hooked frequently and every game was a challenge. But right now killers get 2 hooks total before the exit gates are powered on. And NOED comes into play. Make it so they are stronger and they can have 5-6 hooks already by time the exit gates are finished.
3 -
its really not hard to get totems, you say youre tired of hearing it but thats the direct counter and isnt that hard to do, making to endgame anyway should be good enough so seeing NOED shouldnt be an issue, iv personally never seen an issue with NOED as a survivor i just get the totem when its active or all totems before, there is 5 totems and 4 survivors you have time to get them. but if you and so many other think NOED is really over powered even though it only activates after 5gens and can be stopped then i think its fair to balance DS/BT on their own they arent annoying but when everyone runs them and you get hit by DS even after hoking 1-2 other people yeah its an issue im getting punished for being good even after going out my way to hook others first. iv never used NOED and i dont see the point as its not that great against decent teams and like i said its for such a small portion of the game too. gotta be fair to both sides.
2 -
It proves a lot actually. Survivors go for unhooks because its part of the game. Also nobody wants to be a dick and leave someone on the hook to die. As killer all you need to do is wait and pick them up. No effort, high chance of great results.
Low effort ways of playing should not work.
The excuse killers always give is “rush gens” which is how it seems like you’re going to justify this. Lets look at how his last game went shall we when survivors counter this playstyle..
Killer - circling hook endlessly wondering where the survivors are
Survivor 1 - Queued for about 7 minutes just to watch their character hanging on a hook before being taken out of the game. I’m sure they’re having a whale of a time.
Survivors 2,3,4 - Sat holding M1 for a few minutes
Sure sounds like a fun game to me.
Thats how killer mains want it though. They dont care if the game sucks so long as they win. Thats not how DBD was intended to be played.
6 -
Local killer main. Never touched NOED. It's seemed like a crutch to me since I've read the description. If all the gens get done I did something wrong. You still should be doing totems though. If you can pop all the gens you can touch some glowing bones for 5 seconds.
12 -
Exactly, it balances out. A second chance with the one, is a second chance with the other.
0 -
Anyone in their right mind would trade Adrenaline for NOED.
Let's make it happen.
3 -
All survivor mains like you just don't want to see opinions of people that aren't biased. I understand. What Otz also pointed out what you completely ignored is that survivors can also play in ways that provide exactly zero fun time for the killer and these aspects also need changing.
7 -
But the point is that if the killer camps, you don’t have time to do all five gens and all five totems. The person is on the hook for 2 minutes and you have three survivors doing gens at 80 seconds each. It’s a piss-easy way to win every game because it’s almost impossible to counter it.
6 -
-
There is a thing in psychology called system 1 VS system 2, or fast VS slow thinking, that applies HEAVILY to video games. Here is a video explaining it...
Basically you NEED those system 1 mechanics so that system 2 can handle other stuff. In DBD, doing a gen is system 1. It's easy and braindead to actually do the objective. The system 2 part of the equation comes in doing they gen while trying to avoid the killer, or what gens to do, or whatever else is going on in the game. If you change gens to a system 2 function, and there is no system 1, you destroy the flow of the game and make it much much harder to play survivor at the cost of not actually making it more fun (because doing gens isn't the fun part of the game). The game gets boring because you have to expend all this energy to do a gen AND run from the killer AND do pretty much everything else in the game. Skill checks add a little bit of system 2 into the equation so doing a gen (or healing) isn't 100% mindless, but it's mainly a system 1 process. Trust me when I say no one will want to play survivor if they have to try while doing a gen. It's boring AF, the fun part is being chased by the killer (which is already a system 2 process).
Your suggestion would literally kill the game.
8 -
I'm pretty sure it's not the only reason. Unfortunately camping and tunnelling are very consistent plays for risk averse players/people who don't trust their ability to catch other survivors. There's also the problem that facecamping happens to be very good versus altruistic survivors - just check how many survivors who would otherwise escape die because of late game altruism - and playing altruistic is much more fun than just rushing gens for most players.
In my opinion camping and tunnelling should just be universally bad plays, but don't ask me how to do it design wise. It's too complicated, just like balancing gen times in a way that punishes high level survivors without making average to below average players miserable.
NOED is also a very tempting perk because of how forgiving the game becomes for the killer players. Personally I'm philosophically against late game perks for killers in general, but at least things like Blood Warden and Devour Hope are very situational. NOED just works every time, because it's pretty damn unviable for solo survivors to do all the totems consistently. This game very desperately needs a totem counter, I don't understand why it's not a thing yet.
3 -
Same. I'll gladly give up noed if it meant ill never have to deal with ds anymore. I dont have a problem with bt cause i remember when it applied to both the hooked and rescuer.
Noed isnt even close to being a 2nd chance perk. Give killer a perk that magically resets a finished gen then you can say killer has a 2nd chance perk.
6 -
As someone who plays survivor more than killer and doesn’t run noed when I play killer i would say there’s nothing wrong with it. If it was a perk not a hex perk then yes it would be way to strong but the simple fact that you can break totems which in my view is another objective I should be doin as well as gens. Same reason I don’t complain about ds bt or any of the perks a lot of killers complain about because just like totems there are counters to this as well like not tunneling. If you couldn’t counter it at all then yes it would be op the reason I don’t think it would be worth running is because it can be countered so quick.
5 -
People are just to lazy to do bones lol noed is countered so easily yet people claim it’s “over powered” it’s a strong perk yes but that’s what you get for not doing bones it’s that simple also ..survivors have so many second chance perks maybe remove those? And then we can talk about noed
9 -
There's always the possibilty of just being better and outrun the killer.
1 -
I said it multiple times: noed + early 1st hook camping is a guaranteed with against solos. The time alone of CHECKING the hook to realise the killer is camping AND THEN going back to the gens is already to much time wasted. The game is lost at that point. And this isn't done by just one survivor but all 3 solo survivors in the team. This is why we need showing the killer aura when camping for everyone for free.
And besides all of that don't dare anyone saying "jUsT cLeaNsE bOnEs" to a solo team. Cleansing dull totems to avoid noed in solo Q is the biggest W for the killer, no matter what he does.
8 -
do bones
NEWBIE :^)
3 -
Imagine thinking a typical DBD game lasts 3 minutes. They all last between 6-12 minutes, depending on the skill of the survivors and killer.
Edit: NOED is a perk that provides a massive reward for not doing your job. Adrenaline is frequently compared to NOED, but survivors have to finish all the gens or be alive when the exit gates are powered after a hatch close for it to proc (which requires many gens to be done unless you’re the last one alive).
4 -
Suprise suprise, the one game the Survivors didn't play into a camper's hands was the one game they had people get out. The reason NOED is so strong is because nobody cleanses dull totems. People joke that "if it glows it goes", but that's the ONLY time anybody seems to do totems.
5 -
And why, perchance, are you so adamant about not cleansing dull totems? It's 1k free boldness points per totem, plus a free heal if you run Inner Strength
5 -
I hate this "just do totems" mentality.
The only way all five totems get done consistently is if it's a SWF, and everyone knows how much you guys love SWF right?
That doesn't happen with solo survivor. There's absolutely no way for each individual survivor to know how many totems are already done. Until this game has a totem counter, NOED is NOT "easy to counter".
Unless you're suggesting a single survivor does nothing besides look for dull totems and destroy them all game, that "logic" doesn't work at all.7
I'm all for having strong perks as long as the player has to do something in order to meet the condition to activate them. Adrenaline rewards survivors for completing their objective,so it's good. I'm a big advocate for the removal of locker DS because it takes no skill to do and provides too strong of an effect, and countering it is unrealistic quite a lot of the time. NOED falls in the same boat imo.
10 -
I personally don't see why noed needs to be in the game. Since the release of dbd I never saw the need of noed. Do I use it? Yeah, when a new killer gets released and I have literally no better perks I will take it. But I don't even use NOED on clown. Are games hard and fast? Yes they are. But at the end I win 90% of the games and I'm totally fine with that.
2 -
Aside from the fact you're one of the most biased people on the forum to begin with, but let's ignore that and look at facts.
Yes, getting tunneled or camped sucks. No one likes having it done to THEM. But I guarantee every survivor has enjoyed a game where their team mate got tunneled/camped and they escaped. Popular opinion right now is unless every survivor has fun and "wins", that the game is killer sided because of their playstyles. Which is simply another opinion. Yeah, if I get 5 gens done and the killer has NoED it bugs me because of all that work and getting killed. But, IF totems had been done in the first place, REGARDLESS of time lost, it would NEVER activate. That's the trade off you make as a team or solo survivor when you decide to ignore totems.
But you also said he used NoED as backup and rarely even had to use it. So you've already set up your topic on a subject that doesn't cover "how NoED is overpowered" except to say it's OP because of proxy camping?
I'm all for listening to what you have to say, but can you show me evidence that NoED is used disproportionately to other perks on top of it being as overpowered as you believe? BHVR hasn't released that data, so all we have is isolated incidents. Because 1 - 1000 games isn't NEARLY enough data to say ONE perk is overpowered across the board. There are a lot of variables to consider when determining this.
In order to 100% say NoED is overpowered we need the data from all platforms. So that means the data of every game where the killer used NoED. But we'd need to filter out every game where it failed to activate. Suppose we do that, we'd need to factor in the people killed BEFORE NoED activated, whether it was destroyed, etc etc etc.
I'm all for change, but I want that change to be backed by actual fact. But since BHVR isn't, and likely won't provide that data, we can't come to any real conclusions about any of this. At least none that have the amount of data required.
8 -
On topic, I can see both sides.
For me I'm to a point where I just expect NOED most of the time unless I can confirm otherwise (killer has shown 4 perks? no NOED). Whether I play solo or SWF (which is mostly the latter) it's always a factor in the game. A lot of the time if I'm playing solo and my team is doing a good job on gens, I just go totem hunting. Even if they did totems, you can still see them destroyed so I just go around and make sure I get them all. Sometimes I don't and NOED still happens, but in my experience at high ranks on Xbox if that is the case the other survivors either leave, or find the totem (assuming it's not in the most ideal spot). If the killer hard tunnels the first guy they caught that's usually dead giveaway they have NOED, so I either try to find totems (not actually DO them, just keep track of where they are so I can take out the NOED when it lights up) or rush gens and just leave. Generally NOED is not very effective at high ranks, SWF or solo.
I have 2 smurf accounts though, and I will say that a LOT of low rank killers get away with kills they definitely should not have gotten because of NOED. They do pretty much exactly what Otz did, camp, tunnel, NOED. Some of them don't even try to hid it, they just stand at the hook and wait. Never do survivors just do gens and leave, they ALWAYS try to save. And they usually die. Thankfully for them, I was in their game and know what this is and what to do (usually with another friend of mine also) so the results aren't always a 4k, but they sure would be if it was a group of actual low rank survivors. [BTW I want to make it clear I'm not a bully. I let the killer kill me at the end if they didn't get anyone. I don't rush gens or even do gens sometimes, all I do is try for chases and memes. I have these accounts for silly non-tryhardy games and also because I have friends that don't play the game nearly as much as me and are legit rank 15's and such. It's not fair to them if I play my main account and we get rank 1 killers, it's barely fair if we get a rank 10 killer, so don't hate on me.]
So there is definitely truth to both arguments. I personally feel like NOED should have some sort of tell (outside of the killer behavior) so that survivors can pick up on it and slow down. The game could also do with some extra protection on the first guy hooked, but for that to happen there also needs to be some mechanic to prevent gen rushing at the start of the game (something akin to @ScottJund "early game warm up" suggestion, though I wouldn't go with his exact idea because I feel it's janky and potentially exploitable, but we do need something that is basically EGC for the start of the game). That would lessen the negative impact of NOED without needing to change the perk itself too much.
IDK it's a tricky situation. If you gut NOED then you just leave open the flood gate for unadulterated gen rushing. If you don't gut NOED, then a lot of low rank killers get freebies.
0 -
I mean. I feel like it's a common thing that I do 3 totems in a game. I'm not saying that I'm the problem. But as a solo survivor. When I have done 3-4 totems, I assume NOED is not in play. But then boom. It hits me. No one on my team did a totem. And they're all running out the exit gates while I die on my first hook.
And there's a lot of reason's why I'm not cleansing dull totems. There's a thing called a point system. You can't just run around the whole map and do totems. Otherwise you're not going to get points in other categories. I have plenty of games where a killer chases me through 3-4 gens. I kind've want a chance to get on a generator at times. Maybe some objective points would be nice, instead of cleansing a totem that gives me more boldness. Which I've been capped out on for 3 minutes mind you!
That's why your do bones theory is so blah. Yeah it's true. That's how you get NOED out of the game. But as a survivor you can't just take a killer for a long chase and then cleanse 5 totems and get any points. It's just all in one category.
0 -
But he right though
3 -
Not only would I make that trade, I'd include a future draft pick. Next survivor released only gets 2 perks.
2 -
Punish altruism 🤘🤘🤘
0 -
That's still a guarenteed win. 3 gens pop in 80 seconds, assuming all 3 survivors were split. The Survivor on the hook still has 40 seconds on the hook, 25-30 after factoring in time to find generators. the 3 survivors can finish a gen together in about 36 seconds, so they have MORE than enough time, since the Killer will have to reach the generator theyre on, assuming he picks the right one. If he guesses right, the two survivors not being chased can finish the final generator in about 45 seconds. Since the Killer is camping, he likely is fairly bad in chases, so it's entirely feasible that the two survivors can finish the last gen in the time it takes the last survivor to go down. Then the last survivor can pop their adrenaline/DH to reach a pallet or lose the killer, thus all three survivors get out.
1 -
You do know you can do totems on your way between generators, right? It's not a one or the other deal. Keep an eye out for totems as you travel, then do a quick circuit around the gen to see if theres a totem by it, since totems tend to spawn near gens. Once theres only one gen left, you can check for totems again if time permits. You can even find a totem and leave it for endgame. once the gates are powered, come back and check the totem, see if it lights up
1
