I installed the game 4 days ago, ######### MATCHMAKING???!!!!!!
I saw the twitch streams of this game for a while, i was interested so i bought the ######### game, now i hate my life, i regret of buying this game, this matchmaking is a pure shiit, i play killer and have like 1/2 common perkz only while the survivors are rank bellow 5 with lots of stuff, like in one game they had 4 flashlight each 32 sec.
i hate the game, i want payback, i didnt expect such a bulshit matchmaking.
IM NOT THAT GOOD TO PLAY AGAINST HIGH RANK SURVIVORS!!!!
cant u read the feedbacks in the forum and twitch. this game is complete mess!!!!
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I'd like to open a discussion on MMR in DbD. I am 100% convinced that an MMR system will never work in a game like Dead by Daylight. In fact, it cannot.
You are not a bad survivor if you spawn in a corner with a Billy
You are not a bad killer if you go up against multiple SWFs with meta perks and full items, obviously doing worse in comparison to regular matches
What are the actual problems with matchmaking currently?
1) queue times
2) fariness (both enemies and allies)
3) latency (ping issues)
By dividing time between fixing major issues to implement a worthless system, you are delaying vital changes the game really needs. In fact, you'll make things worse with hidden ranks. People will know there'll be a system like that and will either deliberatly play "worse" to lower their MMR and get easier matches or play more selfishly in hopes of gaining more MMR from their matches, both of which favours unfair behaviour.
I have more arguments, but I feel like the thread should be left somewhat open for debate. These arguments represent the most compelling of the bunch, so feel free to comment and share your thoughts
Stay safe out there!
EDIT: grammar
Post edited by ArtCrusade on2 -
I can't think of it working either. This will just treat a win and loss as 0-1k or 3-4k which we know is not reflecting skill at all. Emblem system neither. You can easily do bad and get a 4k by either NOED/Bloodwarden or an over altruistic team. And that would mean you are ranking up for an 80% bad game.
The current problem is the matchmaking, that screws over the pipping, because rainbow groups are matched against the best possible killer, which also creates the queue times. There are simply not enough high rank killers available, to put one red rank into each match that contains a single red rank survivor. That expands the range, putting lower ranked killers into higher ranked survivor matches and in each game one side is having a bad time. Note, this is just an assumption of how it works, but I really think that they need to match riller ranks of the average survivor ranks again, not the best survivor rank.
And MMR is even further away from being skill based than the emblems are. There is no system that is able to judge if that trap was well placed or if the survivor just didn't pay attention. If the killer chased well or if the survivor got stuck on a corner. And so on.
I was about to create a thread about emblem rework, but before I gathered my thoughts, the MMR was announced, so it would be kinda useless now to come up with that
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Here comes the smurfs...
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So it's totally okay for tryhard sweaty swfs to get matched against low-skill killers?
DBD needs some sort of proper matchmaking, but the Devs are too focused on the wrong thing. Nobody wants instant ques if they are going to get bullied 4 out of 5 matches. Seriously, it's just plain wrong. Why do you think no-one plays killer at high ranks? The ques are instant.
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Is MMR gonna be calculated differently for SWF or SOLO? cause if it isnt then rank is gonna be heavily inflated.
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Exactly.
I mainly play killer, although I have been rank 1 as survivor as well. I mostly played solo-queue but sometimes played duo with a friend, so at least I know both sides when I talk about this kind of stuff.
You notice that there is a ranking problem with the emblem system when you spend a lot of time on rank 1. It's actually quite easy to rank up in this game if you play in a certain way, so red ranks are a pool of many different skill levels. This of course wouldn't be a problem at all, different skill levels are part of any competitive game. But there's a HUGE difference in skill level between rank 1 killers and survivors. Some games you face absolute potatoes (noticable solo-queue), some games you face monster teams (full SWF on comms).
MMR wouldn't fix the system, it'd cure the symptoms. We need to have a separate bracket for these types of players. Merely implementing different queues for SWF wouldn't do anything since you'd take people out of regular queues, making the queueing problem even worse. Making it possible for killers to opt out of facing SWF teams would make queue times super frustrating for survivors. They added more people to the pool of players queued up at the same time by enabling crossplay, but not everyone allows it in their own games and thus it only helps on surface levels.
The problem at hand is frustration over matchmaking mostly, so why not have a "legendary" league like in Hearthstone, a permanent rank you unlock every month anew? That way people can enjoy being competitive (but have longer queues) while rank 1 is occupied by people who aren't ready to face that level just yet. The way to rank 1 should be longer, too. The emblem system just isn't a reflection of skill, but of time spent and matchmaking tactics involved.
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What region do you play in? I'm from Germany and hell no my queues aren't instant. I sometimes wait 8-10 minutes at rank 1.
MMR wouldn't fix matchmaking, it'd work atop the Emblem system from my understanding
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Well, i think if handled well the MMR system could work better than the system we have in place already. It all depends on what brings up your MMR. Right now its pretty much universally agreed that the rank system we have is awful, and that you can play against such a wide range of ranks its almost useless
If they make it so pipping raises the mmr and depipping lowers it, then it would functionally be no different from the current ranking system, just perhaps a higher bracket than the rank 1 we have now.
And even now we have people depipping already to reach lower ranks, so they can crush lower ability opponents, so the change to an MMR won't change that already. Infact, hiding the MMR would help that, as it would be harder for those doing that to know if its succeeding, it also makes it harder to know if the good players can chalk a win down to a fair match, or just being matched against worse players
Of the 3 main issues you have, MMR *should* help against 2 of them. Fairer matches against people of similar skill, and faster matchmaking with the new system they said would implement. Only one it doesn't help is with latency
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Its not about the region but the time of day you play, though for posterity I'm from NZ so I think I play on AU servers.
Trying to play killer at peak times is near instant, this has been well documented by both the community and content creators from all regions. You may just be getting unlucky, however. On the flip side, survivor ques take 5-10 minutes.
When I play at midday, it's the precise opposite: Survivor ques are instant, killer takes up to half an hour. And when I actually get a killer match, it's some of the easiest games in my life because the Bully With Frien- Sorry, "Survive" With Friends teams haven't gotten together to just absolutely ruin peoples experiences.
Don't get me wrong, not all SWF teams are like this, but to be perfectly frank it's not fun to go against the ones that aren't abusing meta perks either. It can be, if they suck or meme, but generally speaking I don't go into a match to be someone else's plaything. And against a half-decent 3-4 person SWF, it's just an absolutely awful experience even if they are trying to be nice. You have to play like such a scumbag right from the start to even have a chance, and you have to have the one of the best possible builds in the game. And I'm not talking about some victory condition, like 4k or pip. I just mean a chance to get an actual close game.
And on the flip side of THAT experience is playing survivor with trash teammates against a good killer. This is way too common. Your entire team gets shredded by a Freddy that just got hardcore bullied and is NOT in a merciful mood. You can pull your weight all you want, if everyone in the match was the same skill level you might stand a chance. If not, too bad. And guess what? They're not, because it's solo que and everyone is boosted. Including me. But we're all boosted from different ranks.
This is why some form of MMR is needed: Nothing is good about players bringing, for lack of a better term, the most powerful crutches because they don't have a chance to actually develope some sort of skill. And, in the case of survivor, their random teammates ALSO don't have a chance to develope skill, so they rely on SWF.
If the game had a half-functioning MMR, then "good" players (whether skillful or crutch-users) wouldn't be able to go against "bad" players. That is, in fact, what used to exist with the old ranking system: It wasn't by any means perfect, but at least it was somewhat functional. Sort of.
It was better than this, at least.
Which is why I think that an MMR system, even a bad one, is better than this absolute nightmare of an experience.
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Do you refer to what I said? If yes:
3 ranks 1 with a rank 17 would be an average of 5. A rank 5 killer should not be a low-skill killer, he is on his way to red ranks. So he should at least be close and get some action going, maybe not able to 4k, but will also have a good amount of learning from this match. I think that is ok.
Other scenarios: 1+5+10+15 would get you an average killer rank of ~8. Which would mean, 1 survivors might bully him, the other two are close to his rank and be a good match and one of them being an easy target (like in the first scenario as well). So if you struggle against the god looper, leave him and concentrate on the other 3. Once in a while you might get the rank 1 offguard.
So, yes, the incredible amount of sweaty tryhard full SWF messing up almost random-guess of my matches, that are actually not that far away rank wise, would be ok. Especially compared to the randomness of matchmaking, that puts green rank killers against full red rank teams, how it is currently frequently happening.
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DBD currently has (effectively) no matchmaking parameters. They were disabled a while ago. The search parameters now expand too quickly for the old "highest-level-swf" parameter to matter. The game's current MMR system, emblems, is all but ignored. (I really don't care that it's not technically an MMR system, they serve the exact same purpose.)
And no, rank 5 doesn't mean that someone is good (because it's easy to get to rank 1) or that they can learn from their awful experience. To put it bluntly: you cannot learn from someone leagues ahead of you. Learning requires context: if you don't understand the context, you don't learn. This is why throwing people off the deep end usually results in them drowning.
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Well, first, if we assume that ranks completely mean nothing even if they would work as intended, then we don't need ranking and match making at all. Rank 5 to rank 1 is not leagues ahead. And not sure what you want to say with the context. Do you get more context when playing against the same ranks? It is up to the player if he learns or not. If not, he doesn't get better and therefore doesn't pip (assuming a working system)
Just as an example: In Quake 3 Arena, I played a lot against AI bots. I noticed that I get better when playing against same level bots all the time, resulting in more matches I could win. Then I increased the difficulty, having bad matches, going back to "my" level. Trying again after several days of "training" to increase the level, same result. I just managed to get better significantly by playing against a difficulty that is a bit to hard for me, to get to a point where I started to win matches against them.
Meaning, when you don't play against people mindgaming you, you will never learn mindgaming. Counts for all the other things you need to learn in DBD. That's why I don't give up every chase when the survivor seems too strong for me. I give up the game and try to find ways to catch this guy, to make it better next time
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Another thing: I can't imagine that they completely removed matchmaking parameters. Then you wouldn't need to wait 8 minutes for a game. It would be kinda "first come first served"
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You proved my point with your scenario: You didn't immediately crank the bots to max difficulty. That's what I mean by context: you have to know the previous 'tier' of skill in order to understand what's right and/or wrong about what you are doing now.
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That's pretty much what it is, there's just less killers than survivors which is why it takes 8 minutes. Case in point: ever since matchmaking COMPLETELY broke about 2 months ago, survivor que times actually got a fair bit shorter on average. This pretty much dispelled the OhTofu theory that everything could be blamed on SWF-skewed matchmaking.
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And rank 5 from my example (purple tier) is one behind rank 1 (red tier). If you treat 4 ranks difference as "leagues ahead", then this game will never have a working matchmaking, because you will never be able to have games purely consisting of equally ranked players across the board. I think even with a tolerance of +-1 this would not be possible without queue times like 30 minutes
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RANK. DOESNT. WORK. It is no longer an indicator of skill. It never really was, but now it's completely not because you can barely lose ranks. The Devs themselves said this. The developers. Of the game. Not just the professional content creators whose job it to be good at the game, and the significant majority of the community: the games very own developers. This is the gaping flaw in your example: that killer very likely has NO idea what the hell is happening. They probably only have the basics of mindgames and loops: that's not enough. Not even close.
Rank used to reset every month. Now it really, honestly doesn't: play 10 hours a month and you can maintain your rank 1, because it's super easy to black pip even though you got steamrolled. And that's just as a killer: as survivor, you get steamrolled and PIP! #########! Matchmaking is basically a roulette system: even if it worked perfectly and matched rank 1's against rank 1's, it's just as likely that you are matching babies with GODS. And tbsoe babies can it learn from gods: it's like cranking the game to it's hardest difficulty. This has been well documented. That's WHY the Devs started talking about an MMR system in the first place: they admitted that ranks didn't matter and it was just a personal victory.
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I said that before: OF COURSE it is a mess RIGHT NOW, but we can throw the whole system away is we assume that a working ranking does not work. If the system is working correctly, we would just need a rank reset to 20 for everyone. Might be a mess in the first week but then you get to the ranks you belong to. And back in the days, rank 1 wasn't leagues ahead of rank 5.
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Okay, so... What? Do you think the Devs will ever make emblems harder, because they definitely will not: they don't want to have to tell people they aren't actually good at the game. This isn't Dev bashing, it's just the logical reason you would do as they are doing: they see "rank" as a problem that causes a lot of tension in the community and so want to hide it. But you can't suddenly hide rank, that would piss everyone off, so they are developing an MMR system and hiding that instead. And the game will be better off than it is in its current state, even if the MMR system is literally the rank system from a year ago.
Yes, all our problems would be solved if it was harder to rank up and they reverted matchmaking/ranking to what it was a year ago (or earlier). But that is NEVER going to happen: this is a toxic, fragile playerbase we're talking about. Try telling 100k Ochido's that they aren't as good as they thought they were and see what happens. The Devs have to do a lot of smoke and mirrors to keep them happy: the doctor rework was written almost entirely from a survivor-based POV, and for good reason.
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I also said something about that in the beginning: I had thoughts about how to adjust the emblems to be more skillreflecting. But that went up in somke when they announced the MMR is coming. Our discussion started at "back to average killer rank -> unfair noob bashing"
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It cant be worse than the actual matchmaking.
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there is no way it will be worse than matchmaker we currently have, let them at least try
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We have 0 information on how they plan to calculate and implement the system.
We are in no place to say for sure whether it'll work or not so every discussion is just speculation.
I DO know that they need to define a win condition to center the system around. If they don't, then they're just wasting their time.
I'm interested to see what happens.
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There should be a public and ranked mode first before even thinking about MMR. And then MMR should only apply in ranked and NOT in public mode.
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I actually agree with most of this. There are too many factors for the game to reliably determine skill level. Balance the game or account for its imbalance, then we'll talk.
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I think it absolutely can. Instead of emblems that reset every month we'll have a permanent ranking system that works in the background. We cannot see if, we cannot truly know how to affect it and it will feel really unfair to many, many players. DbD is not a level playing field. It's an asymmetrical survival game. If that Billy decides to facecamp you, where's your player agency? The entire point of MMR is to rate your personal skill to match it against others, but there are too many factors in the game that affect your experience and you have no say in it.
So yes, the new system WILL be worse than the current system.
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Thats exactly the same as in shooter games. If you get killed by a house camper, that will affect youre rating. Its still better than just a playtime-matchmaking, cause thats what the ranking system is all about. Thats why rank reset is meaningless.
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While that is true, if the difference is too much, there is nothing to learn.
Otherwise, elementary schools would be closed long ago, as children could just start in 5th grade and need to git gud.
Same with sports, a new boxer can learn a lot of fighting an experieced champion, why waste time with other new boxers?
there is a reason most people would find that a bad idea.
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I think the difference between 5 and 1 is not too much, at least taking into account that queue times would be gigantic if you just allow matchmaking with ranks +-1. And that also includes that this should not be the majority of cases. It sometimes happens (again to make sure, we have working matchmaking and ranking), and in these cases you mught experience a loss but can learn from it, next time you get better ranked games.
And Im not sure if most people think it is a bad idea. I said let's get back to where it was, where queue times were fine and far less people complained about matchmaking (compared to now). So regarding forum feedback, the old approach was more accepted than the current.
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In a shooter game, you are not immediatly thrown out of a game because you died once. There's no respawning in DbD. A single occurence in a shooter game is much less impactful as death in DbD
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Because I don't want to face rank 20 killers running a single perk.
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I think the skill difference between 5 and 1 is much higher than 13-8.
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Might be, would it still be an unplayable game for the rank 5 killer? Where he could learn nothing but frustration, taking into account that he could possibly take out the rank 12 pretty easy and therefore play a decent amount of time vs 3 survivors?
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So I've been wondering and I don't think the devs ever said anything about the subject, but do correct me if I'm wrong tho.
So how is the mmr calculated in the game?
For survivors, is it calculated by the amount of escapes you do, the overall scoring or the scoring per category?
Cause like I never play to escape I only make sure I pip and that's all.
I'm a survivor who always goes for the chases because I like that more that sitting on a gen the entire/most of the time.
For killer, is that based on the amount of sacrifices you do, by the overall scoring or per category?
I don't believe they ever mentioned how they calculate it, if they just use the current scoring/emblem system?
If they do than what is the point of the mmr if they use the same method as with the scoring/emblems?
I really love a clarification about how they calculate it, where the mmr is based off.
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They won't say because they don't want people abusing it 😤
Honestly, I just want to know how complicated this supposed system is. It's kind of hard to tell right now if it even exists.
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Exactly, I'm very curious about the system too.
Like I said, I play for the chases and not to escape.
Escaping is fine and all, but totally not necessary to pip.
But if mmr is based on that part for survivor, than I get to a point where it is no more fun for me as for the killer
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We have played numerous matches, and I for one haven't noticed any real difference in the ranks of killers we get. Very inconsistent. The same way match making has been for months. Our ranks are 1, 8, 9, and 10 with 3+ years experience.
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I'm rank 3 right now, and devotion 14. I also play solo.
I'm still getting rank 20 team mates with 1 perk who can't hit skill checks, after 50+ games.
After how many matches are we supposed to have a working MMR?
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I wonder if you're more likely, as a solo, to have a situation where the MM gives you 2 highs and 2 lows to average an MMR that accommodates what ever killer it finds.
I wish I could feel as annoyed as everyone else is, but my queue times are too long IMO to warrant playing more than 2-3 matches.
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My last match btw.
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On average, you guys were a fair match for the killer. /s
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That's ridiculous and unacceptable if this is intended matchmaking. I'd argue that it makes the game unplayable for people like OP. Who wants to deal with that? This needs to be addressed and corrrected ASAP. That type of matchmaking is a game killer.
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Heeeeeey me too!
This was a fun and extremely balanced match :) :) :)
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Survivor need to play swf if they want to win right now. If they stay solo they will have 2 rank 30 in their team vs a rank 1 killer
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I had a match yesterday where I was just watching the survivors run to the edge of the map instead of running to nearby pallets. It was just so sad to watch.
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Devs: People were precalibrated, but it will also take 10 games to calibrate. Somehow, both things are true.
Most players: K. It's been way more than 10 games and it's still way off.
Devs: *crickets*
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Adding another gem from today..
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yup. im the rank 16 meg (madahala_) and i wanna ask why tf i was matched twice with rank 1's. ######### do u think ur doing, bhvr? please fix this, or come back to the good old rank system. what i see here, is garbage.
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Why /s? We know literally nothing about this game other than the screenshot. Rank =/= skill, and everyone agrees on that. The killer was rank 7, but they were also a Doctor using only Overcharge I, so it was probably their first game as Doctor under the new MMR. After this match the rank 20's skill should drop, the killer's should go up, etc. and the matches should get better going forward.
Plus, the killer ended up with 32k points and three survivors got up to 19-26k. That's a sign that the survivors probably made good progress on generators and they had a nice long match. In other words, it probably wasn't that unbalanced, even with the rank 20 and the killer probably having very little history for the system to work with.
Could there be more protection for rank 20s? Sure, but this system will protect them over time as all of the experienced players have a MMR to reflect their experience.
Let's wait more than 3 days before whining.
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