BHVR opened Pandora's Box, so now what happens to Slinger?
From the update:
"Currently the Survivor is left with two choices: Vault the window/drop the pallet and get hit with Punishment of the Damned, or continue running and get hit with a basic attack."
With Slinger, the biggest complaint against him is the free zoning he has built in, much like PH, and the problem of you either dodge an instant-ADS and lose distance and eventually get hit, or keep holding W and get shot. There are number of reasons but I feel most understand what I'm referring to.
So the question is, now that BHVR have directly addressed this issue found in PH, will they change Slinger or eventually even Spirit (though she is unlikely due to how controversial that would be and this issue im referring to is more specific to Slinger/PH.)
For reference, this is what I mean, Skip to 1:40 if it doesn't work:
Comments
-
Slinger is my second main after blight, and I would be overjoyed if they changed his ads spam. Only bad slingers rely on this tactic to win chases, because they aren't confident in their shots.
33 -
Ok so in the time skip the issue isn’t even slinger she just ran to a dead zone what did she expect? Hell it could have been a huntress doing that with a cd and still got her with M1
12 -
The issue is the "gameplay"
You either dodge a shot that isn't coming and get M1d, or get shot
29 -
i agree to this as a ph main. if you only used your power to zone and not to actually try some fun wacky ######### you were a really bad ph.
8 -
I mean yeah makes sense in a dead zone??? That’s literally every killer in that scenario. If they were at a loop putting stuff between him like walls and a pallet would counter his power as it has no way to kill a survivor over them.
3 -
You cant change his zoning and ADS time for a few reasons:
- He'll literally become a worse huntress
- He'll become clown tier if not handled properly
- He'll be super unfun to play
- You NEED to zone against good players, good players can predict most shots and it's impossible to hit a zig zaging survivor.
Just keep slinger as is unless you want to destroy him "just because he's frustrating", and disappoint all the people who main him.
EDIT: I usually never say this but this is coming from a genuine slinger main who literally only plays him. Changing slinger is a bad idea.
24 -
You haven't came up against a good team if you think only bad slingers rely on ADS spam.
14 -
If they follow PHs example, he'll get a time delay added to his M2, but also a larger hitbox. I'm okay with that.
8 -
I'm not saying I agree or disagree with the PH changed or anything, but since when is not attempting "fun and wacky" maneuvers a sign of a bad player?
15 -
Soooooo a worse huntress and removing the skill based part of him which is hitting hole shots.
That would be possibly the worst way to handle him.
8 -
Deathslinger shouldn't be nerfed like that because you aren't always under risk of being hit with his power, same with demogorgon.
9 -
this question isn't necessarily "should they" or "how would they" change him, its "will they" now that they addressed the similar PH issue
3 -
Demo has a considerably longer startup than Deathslinger. An instant ADS deathslinger is unreactable by a human.
That said this change would hurt Slinger. He needs a rework. If you take this away his viability drops even further.
2 -
sorry, i shouldve been more clear. the "fun wacky #########" i mentioned is using your ability for more than just zone zone, lose/lose, then they die. because if thats all you're good at, and that's the only thing you can do as him, you're a bad pyramid head.
good players should be able to fully-utilise all aspects of a character's kit, and not rely on one single part of it. for example, if you can consistently predict correctly and hit through-the-wall shots on survivors with lots of distance, whilst at the same time being able to efficiently shut down loops, you're a good pyramid head imo and that commands my respect. if you can only shut down loops because of haha sword in ground haha i win no matter what you do, that's not a good pyramid head.
again though, thats completely my own opinion.
3 -
Lmao as if these devs have any problem whatsoever with being inconsistent.
1 -
That makes sense, but they're not comparable.
Deathslinger has no where near the amount of lose lose situations pyramid has. The only place deathslinger is sorta guaranteed a hit is through windows, while if you're prepared with pyramid, both windows and pallets can be lose lose.
Plus pyramid can't zone in deadzones, only in loops, while deathslinger can do both.
You have to remember though that zoning =/= Lose lose. You can read a bait just as much as you can read a shot. With Pyramid though you mostly are in an animation lock and literally cant do anything as long as the PH is good.
I understand why you would compare them (hell even I used to compare them), but they adjusted pyramid because of lose lose, not because of zoning which is what slinger has.
3 -
I as a hardcore slinger main would be completely fine with some smaller CD on M2 release spam. That's not what makes slinger a good killer so nerfing that is imao completely fine since it's irrelevant change for good slingers.
Overall I don't think slinger needs any changes at all but if some should happen, M2 spam nerf would be more then acceptable, especially if accommodated with some small number buffs to compensate.
1 -
The deadzone isnt the point. He didnt even have to shoot. Stop trying to justify this mindless tactic.
3 -
You are prefacing it as a slinger main. You can not predict most shots. The only shots you are predicting are choke points (before running through a pallet dodge) any slinger can catch on to that. You have a skewed view because you main the killer.
5 -
Yea, you cant predict some shots, that's why you need to zone. Ive never said you can never zone and I'm completely fine with his zoning.
I must've missed you're point.
Plus (unrelated, but I hate seeing people say this) most people have skewed views because they DON'T play the killer. It's why the phrase "a good deathslinger wont miss" is still around, anybody who has played him knows that you will miss eventually due to inconsistent survivor pathing.
5 -
You mean you miss once in a while and need to zone. That's fair but a good slinger hardly misses. (That's the correct wording). That's good you arent fine with his free zoning and also even if they add a delay he can still zone because of his instashoot no matter the situation his psychological effect rivals DS.
Also I said you have a skewed view because you main him and dont want a change. That's reasonable as a lot of people dislike change. However slinger needs some type of nerf and a compensation buff.
3 -
I dont think Deathslinger can be fixed with regular tweaks like Pyramid Head, his chase is too strong while everything else on him is absolute rubbish (0 mobility, 0 stalling, 0 speed, no insta-downs etc) if they buff his weakpoints his chase would get out of control, if they nerf his chase he becomes nothing. How do you fix that? you either need major changes or a full rework.
2 -
Deathslinger is a problem, because if you nerf his ads, he becomes worthless. You will have a 110% killer that cant down from range, and only has one shot that will be easily dodge able.
You can make him 115%, but then he will just become man with bayonet, because his power will still be time wasting garbage, having to steady the aim, and reel people in, with a large penalty for missing. Imo, you'd have to ditch the reeling mechanic and have his spears damage people.
2 -
Ah I misworded that, I am fine with his zoning, it creates many 50/50 situations which is needed for a strong chase power. That's not objectively broken however as 50/50s are part of the game naturally in mindgames etc. As I said zoning =/= lose lose.
What I do want is people actually learning how to be efficient against him and understanding his limitations. You can avoid most lose lose situations and force 50/50s. Not everyone will like that but it's better than having the misconception that he is constantly lose lose similar to pyramid.
Objectively yes, changing him to have less chase and buffing him elsewhere is better, however, he is super fun to play, feels very rewarding and has a high skill ceiling. Plus changing him would ruin the killer for the people who have learned him down to the bone, learning every hole in shack, etc. Plus, he is barely played. It's putting effort into something that is going to happen every game.
You shouldn't always look at things objectively, because if we did, other killers would require a rework when it's really not necessary.
3 -
Why would he? THEY👏ARE👏IN👏A👏DEAD👏ZONE👏 Like how hard is this to comprehend? Tell me if it was say a legion for example what would the survivor do to stop from being hit there in a spot with no pallets or windows and the killer is less then 20m away from them?
6 -
You are just being intentionally ignorant
The problem is simple: If Nea keeps running, she gets shot. If she dodges, like she did, she gets M1'd. Even if there was a pallet there, she wouldn't have made it.
Stop trying to defend this
5 -
Bruh if there was a pallet he wouldn’t be able to hit her... And why shouldn’t he be able to shoot or hit a survivor right in front of him because a survivor ran to a dead zone? News flash don’t be in front of the killer or in a dead zone. I ask again if this was legion what could she have even done different or should all killers be nerfed so you can run to dead zones and not be downed for it?
4 -
Yes zoning does not equal lose lose however it is not a 50/50 it's more like a 75/25. If you dodge you lose distance and he catches sup and if you run he shoots you. Saying it like that you are technically losing either way. Its objectively unfair.
I dont care if hes super fun to play as like the devs you are forgetting about the survivor side. Is that good that hes unfun as hell to play against? I can say the same thing when they removed vacuum pallets. "Its not fair becuase I learned how to loop extremely good and take advantage of the vacuum."
It's not very rewarding to guess correctly and maybe extend your chase by 5 seconds against a slinger. Yeah he has a high skill cap but that doesnt excuse his unfair nature. You wre proving my point as a slinger main your opinion is skewed. Hes barely played? I see a good amount of slingers that's a region thing.
I do look at things objectively and objectively slinger has a terribly designed power.
1 -
Dude same thing when looping he just has to press m2 and you dodge. Now you take a less optimal looping path and get hit. Wait arent you the same guy who got bodied by a huntress?
1 -
No you either keep running cuz he is slower then you now around the wall and can’t hit you or you drop the pallet and even if he shoots you he has to let you go cuz he can’t hit you. But yes let’s compare an exploiting killer going against someone who has never played survivor in their life before then to two players of equal skill level able to counter each other. Ps if you payed attention I never got bodied I just didn’t want to play but wasn’t taking a dc penalty and giving them the satisfaction. Is that your go to everytime? Cuz I can point out how you made a bunch of posts crying about deathslinger that all said the same thing and your excuse for making another one was cuz nobody agreed with you 😂 But yeah my post about how people think exploits are cool but tier 1 perks isn’t is the same thing totally 🙄
6 -
I don't want to start another super long discussion about slinger but I just need to ask since I'm curious.
"Yeah he has a high skill cap but that doesnt excuse his unfair nature." Are you referring to his zoning with this or his power overall ?
I'm just wondering since a lot of really good chase killers like nurse, spirit, huntress when mastered can't be really countered effectively. Once you're in their reach you will get hit and you depend on killer to mess up. If you consider DS unfair that he can instashoot you over open tiles up close then all other killers who can easily beat these tiles are unfair as well.
0 -
Didnt think I'd actually have to converse with a guy who for the record admits he never plays survivor but then has the audacity to tell me how survive. They contradict themselves buddy.
Also us vs a crossrare isnt an exploit the devs would have banned zubat if it was. Another thing is I'm pulling your leg im not serious about you getting bodied. Guess we need /s.
I made like 2-3 slinger posts. They had valid points anyways you have to guess no matter what hes doing but then again you dont play survivor so prefacing it as a killer doesnt help your argument.
One last time I was messing with you.
1 -
I'm referring to his insta shoot and zoning it isnt designed well. The devs are amatuers.
A good nurse still has a telegraph and can be beat. Fingerguns did it to ayrun who 8sent a bad nurse. Even a good huntress can he outplayed on jungle gym tiles. ######### spirit.
0 -
Its a 50/50, you either predict the bait and don't dodge, or you predict the shot and dodge. That's just how it is. I've tested this against good pub squads and against my friends it's most certainly not a lose lose. It's not a spirit where she can do 70 different things to get you, he either shoots or doesn't.
By saying you don't care if he's super fun to play kinda shows that you only care about the survivor side and not the killer. He needs to be fun to play as well.
Also, he's not objectively broken so he's not objectively unfun. Yea if you don't like versing him that's fine, but you can't please everyone and I don't expect everyone to have fun against him. If you don't like predicting your opponent constantly, that's fine, I do. I find it a thrill. Also that pallet vacuum thing makes no sense really.
Extending a chase by about 10 seconds by predicting correctly can mean a lot in the long run against him. If you have a long chase against slinger and at least 2 gens ain't done before he hooks another survivor, then that's on your team being bad.
I mean, if you are really good with slinger the chase should be favoured towards you by a noticeable margin. Not unfair like old legion, but very stacked for you. And he isn't really unfair as by the reasons above.
If you classify his 50/50s as terribly designed then the whole core of mindgames are terribly designed as well, it comes to a skill point where each side is just guessing. So either both are badly designed, or both are not badly designed.
4 -
Actually I said at the time I had never played survivor I play it constantly now some days more then killer and I’ve changed my build up vastly now we can always run one together or on kyf if you want sometime I enjoy BL Empathy IW and We’ll Make It
0 -
Hmm, I won't go into that. I find him well designed but that's just my opinion.
Yes they can be beat but not really consistently, up close, in open tiles. If you outplay them there, it's them messing up, not you making some insane play that made nurse that had you close in plain view miss her blink.
As I said, once you're in reach of those killers powers, be it slinger, huntress or whatever, it's on them to make a mistake. It's not a sole problem with slinger, other killers do the same thing, they just don't have as many opportunities as he has.
0 -
Eh, I think his quickscope is fine, since you can pre drop pallets and break LOS, to counter him, even if it's boring, clown has the same problem, he is counterable, but the counterplay is boring. You can't just say "remove quickscope and make him 115%" that would make him an inferior huntress, and incredibly boring to play. His zoning is BS, but I think his quickscope is fine.
0 -
He would need a very huge buff if he gets same treatment.
110ms killer guys.
1 -
Slinger is just a worse huntress.
4 -
I genuinely love playing deathslinger and he's my main when I play a few matches as killer, but it always seems like no one uses his power just to use it. Why fake people out when you can actually have the thrill of getting a shot and reeling them in? When Deathslinger is inevitably nerfed/tweaked I wouldn't mind it too much depending on what they're working on, but the only thing that I don't want them to touch is his quickshots. For me it's nice to see a Survivor or see one of my teammates in the exit gates if they just stand close to the edge of escaping or sit their and just do their victory dance and gestures and they get shot and reeled in, it doesn't necessarily bother me it's just the fact of, "you could've left, but you chose to stay behind." Especially when I wait halfway through the endgame collapse timer as a killer in a match. [NOTE: I'll still try and interfere with the tug of war bit when it comes to my teammate when playing Survivor too though (depending if Deathslinger is running bayshores gold tooth and I can't keep up with the reeling speed)]. I don't mind a cooldown to be rid of free-zoning like the video presented, but I hope that their won't be a certain of "x amount of seconds" to shoot your projectile when activing your ADS, because it's a gun who has to wait for an amount of seconds to spear someone, so they can get a headstart and run away, but at the same time they can at least somewhat upgrade the dog whistle-like audio cue when Deathslinger is aiming at you.
0 -
“How many jukes can you do before I catch up to you?”
Bang
Bang
Bang
Smack!
OUTPLAYED
1 -
The entire conversation behind DS and PH is Pandora's Box tbh.
It's hard to really discuss an issue like this without one or two fights breaking out, but I still hope people will try to if they're willing to be civil about it. Or don't... idk.
0 -
Keep the lid on the box Pandora, you won't like whats inside.
0 -
Deathslinger will either get reworked or nerfed and then reworked months later.
Spirit (since she often gets lumped in with Slinger and PH) will likely be nerfed or reworked.
0 -
fr bro, at a loop deathslinger is in range for me to be shot so i try to dodge it before i get round the corner, and i get hit. YOU GOT OUTPLAYED BY SOMEONE DOING NOTHING
0 -
I literally just had this problem. I find it unbelievable that, in maps such as the Silent Hill one, like a good chunk of the pallets are rendered absolutely useless because Deathslinger can either ADS you instantly and you get hit, or you drop the pallet, and he will shoot you and then phase his chain through the wall to get to you. There's no counter play to it, damned if you do and damned if you don't. I feel bad for leaving but I can't stand a match where 90% of it will be me getting hit unfairly and having no fun for the sake of others.
I really enjoy playing with standard basic killers with actually balanced abilities, they're amazingly fun, that's what brings me back to the game over and over. I've played a couple of matches with Freddy in the silent school map and each of them were good.
Deathslinger boils down to shooting the survivor, and then holding them there while Slinger shimmies over towards you, and then on top of that, lunge to gain extra distance to ensure the down. It's not fun for either party except for the few that know it pisses people off since it has no counterplay other than "haha, don't get hit make sure he can't reel you around the wall(s)" the deathslinger is GOING to come into full view of you at some point unless you're lucky, it's unrealistic to say simply not to come into view, because it doesn't work against people that know what they're doing and how to break the killer so you lose any option than to get hit.
2 -
If you position yourself right around most loops, he can't reel you around them to hit you, but midwich pallets are pretty unsafe.
2 -
That's something I would've done had there been any walls to do it with. I was in a pretty safe spot, had the deathslinger not of had the ability to just cheese their way through like 90% of the pallets.
0 -
Yeah, midwich is a pretty good map for slinger. I really want more loops where the survivor doesn't have 100% visibility of the killer and vice versa. This seems like a map problem, not a slinger problem.
1 -
Perhaps, I've considered that as potentially being something that needs changing since it would be nice having more loops like that to not allow him to just cheese it. I've wondered whether it would be more fair to make it so that the chain, upon contact with a wall breaks much quicker. That wouldn't apply to survivors blocking the chain however, that would stay unchanged.
This way, you could keep the map the way it is and I think personally it would make the gun more of a punishment tool where the survivor is out of line and you can catch them, and not just a "ahah, I got you in the animation lock and now I can slide to the other side of the wall and lunge!"
What about a slower ADS or inaccuracy? hm...I'm not a balancing expert clearly but something definitely needs changing imo to make it feel more fair.
More loops with less visibility would still be nice.
0
