This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)
The fact that Freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a SIGNIFICANTLY higher kill rate should be a major red flag to BHVR that he is too strong.
IDC what you want to say about Nurse or Spirit, but Freddy is objectively one of if not the strongest killers in the game and there are multiple reasons for it.
I must preface this with...
- I was an old Freddy main at rank 1. I played him without Ruin or NOED and was still quite effective with him. However I would acknowledge that he was, at the time, the weakest killer in the game.
- I play new Freddy regularly at rank 1 and I find him to be hands down the most oppressive killer to play. Consistently. Like I win games regularly with 3 or more gens left, AND I rarely have to camp or tunnel.
So why is Freddy so strong?
First is his teleport. He has the best map pressure in the game because he can instantly go to the gen you are working on. No other killer can do this, save for Demo and Hag but they have to set up first which greatly reduces their pressure. Every single gen slowing or gen tracking perk is borderline God tier on Freddy. BBQ, DIscordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer, Thana, Ruin, Pop (especially Pop). Yes these are good perks for many killers, but on Freddy they become exponentially more powerful.
Second is his snares. He has an anti-chase that is very similar to Clown. Say what you want about Clown, but a good Clown will catch you CRAZY fast. Freddy is just a slightly weaker Clown in this aspect, as he can't plant a puddle in front of you during a chase. It is damn near impossible to run a good Freddy for very long around most loops just as it can be a good Clown. This is a minor issue however.
Third is Dream World, or rather the fact it automatically gets Oblivious. This means that he gets a free BT counter, or any perk requiring a terror radius. Sure this hurts him too, but the perks he can't use aren't that great anyway (Unnerving, Insidious??? LOL). Infectious is probably the only TR perk that is good, but guess what? IT STILL WORKS FOR HIM! Yep try it, Infectious will make dreaming survivors scream. Oblivious doesn't stop that for some reason but it negates a lot of good survivor perks.
Fourth is stealth. He has built in semi-stealth due to him being INVISIBLE to awake survivors outside his TR and even sometimes in his TR. This means he can get really close to you while awake without you having a reasonable way to react. He is basically a Wraith.
Finally, he is the ONLY killer in the game with add-ons that affect gen speeds. This is the big one. He has 3 add-ons that do this, and while they were nerfed that is not good enough. They shouldn't exist, period. Don't get me wrong, at first I loved them because my main tactic with old Freddy was to use range add-ons and tracking perks like Surveillance and Nurse's to permanently keep survivors asleep for that sweet 50% action penalty. It was a strong tactic, however since I had to put them to sleep myself it was fair since I had to be active to get that reward. But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
Let's summarize... Freddy is basically a combination of Hag, Wraith, and Clown with built in BT counter and passive slow down that no other killer has access too.
My entire point here is that Freddy just has WAY WAY too much in his base kit, and that is why he has such a significantly higher kill rate compared to other killers. You can say "don't draw conclusions from data alone" remember that I told you I play new Freddy at rank 1 and my experience is that he is oppressive. Furthermore, as survivor, a good Freddy with a strong slow down build is one of the most difficult killers to beat. Literally your only chance against a killer like this is to run in a 4 man SWF, which anyone who plays this game could tell you is already broken, but I digress.
So what is the solution? How do we fix this? I'm not just making this post to complain, I'm making it to offer a suggestion. Now I have been writing down my ideas for changes to Dead By Daylight I would like to see that I believe would improve the game. It's a lot, I will just copy and paste what I wrote for Freddy. Let's take a look...
NIGHTMARE
- Survivors no longer passively fall asleep at the start of the game and do not see the sleep clock until they are hit and put into the Dream State at least once.
- Dream Snare radius reduced by 20%.
- Oblivious removed from Dream World.
- Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
- Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
- Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, Paint Thinner, Outdoor Rope, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains reworked.
- Cat Block inflicts Haemorrhage on sleeping survivors. Healthy survivors that are asleep will bleed.
- Z Block inflicts Mangled on injured survivors that are asleep and blocks the aura of their dream clock outside of 32m.
- Pill Bottle makes the Nightmare; disappear intermittently to awake survivors; invisible to sleeping survivors outside of 32m.
- Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 4 seconds upon falling asleep.
- Outdoor Rope greatly increases interaction time for each successive Snap Clap.
- Jump Rope causes the survivor's dream clock to move to a new location every 30 seconds.
- Swing Chains causes Dream World to inflict the Oblivious status effect.
- Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
- Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Hindered for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
- Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
So let's unpack this.
The first line is actually a slight nerf and buff to Freddy, as one of his only drawbacks is that you KNOW it's a Freddy right when the game starts. This would give some leeway at the start of the game for survivors, and also give Freddy more element of surprise opportunities. Though of course once he hits someone they would see, but the point is he would have a bit more spook at the start. Once you hit them the clock appears and it functions as normal.
Making Dream Snares smaller means it would take better planning in their use. I feel like I can just spam them without care and they do more than what I need them to do. At least require me to use to skill here.
Next. we basically take away all the "fluff" from Freddy's base kit. The goal is to shift most of them to his add-ons. Pill Bottle is a bad add-on IMO, it does nothing for him. This new version would do something for him. Notice how for most of these things while I offer to take away something from his base kit and move it to an add-on, I'm actually buffing it in the process because it now requires an add-on and therefore can be a tad better.
This all opens up new builds for Freddy. I enjoy add-ons that change how a killer functions over straight up making something they do faster or stronger. It leads to more interesting emergent gameplay.
The dream pallet add-ons I feel are redundant. You don't need 3 of them, hell 1 is enough. So let's take Paint Thinner and do something else with it, what I suggest is reminiscent of old Freddy and I would enjoy this as both killer and survivor. I only kept 2 dream pallet add-ons because I honestly couldn't think of another thing for Claws to do.
All the slow down add-ons are gone and in it's place are add-ons that are still really good but not stupid to play against. Giving Oblivious in Dream World as an add-on is acceptable. Base kit it is not.
Finally we make his lame BP add-on a bit better. This is just to offset the fact his snares just got worse.
These are just my suggestions, obviously they won't be implemented but something like this would be a good change for Freddy. If you guys have suggestions you are free to put them here.
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not. He very much is and the chart above confirms it. We need to discuss ways to fix this.
Comments
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He very much is and the chart above confirms it.
Didn't BHVR say not to draw any conclusions based on the chart?
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It's not a conclusion, it's a confirmation. I already knew he was too strong without any data, just by playing as/against him at rank 1. The chart merely confirms what I've been saying for a while now.
Hence I provide a detail breakdown of what exactly makes him strong. Unlike the usual "Spirit not counter play what can you do?" nonsense that is IMO is just theory crafting, what I present here is none of that. This information comes from experience, and while it is subjective, the fact I can articulate EXACTLY what it is about him that is too strong and I can identify very specific and simple solutions gives more weight to my argument.
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Nerf Pig I guess?
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Figures. This place is such an echo chamber. Why do I even bother.
Except I'm not purely looking at the chart and drawing that conclusions.
I ALREADY MADE THE CONCLUSIONS FROM EXPERIENCE. The chart merely confirms it.
But whatever you guys can put your thumb up each other's posts instead of engaging in a reasonable conversation.
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take all of their stats with a plate of salt, unless you also want to make the argument that Nurse is the worst killer in the game and Pig is 2nd best.
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It's not a conclusion, it's a confirmation.
What's the difference?
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Conclusion: I look at the chart and go "Oh hey Freddy too good plz nerf".
Confirmation: I already came to the conclusion Freddy was too strong based on other evidence, the chart just further validates my claims.
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You lost me as you said: "he's basically a wraith".
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there's written very large "ALL RANKS". this alone tells us how worthless are stats, especially considering, as already said, how nurse results as the worst killer in the game and pig one of the strongest, along with ######### doctor, like why are we even considering this again?
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Great, threads about balance based of kill rates are already appearing, just great.
I admit the thread is well done but I don't like the fact that the foundation for it are kill rates which only show that feddy is strong and easy to play so that even bad/mediocre players can dominate your average solo survivors very effectively and consistently with him unlike with nurse.
Freddy can probably use some small number nerfs but his kit is overall fine, there's nothing wrong with having strong killer who's basic and easy to play. I wish people stopped focusing on nerfing good killers and focused more on buffing the weak ones so that we have more diversity.
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In both cases, you are using the chart to validate a claim being made, which is what BHVR is actively discouraging.
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Because Wraith is invisible. Freddy is invisible to awake survivors outside his TR, so you can neither here or see him. On top of that, he disappears at random from 32-16m for awake survivors. This means in order to see him coming you need to be asleep. And in fact his stealth at that range is superior to Wraith because you can still kinda see Wraith. You can't see him at all until he gets within 32m, at which point you have much less time to react that for literally any other killer as you could see potentially them coming BEFORE they got within 32m.
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No I'm using the chart to support something I have other evidence. What they are saying is to not purely look at the chart and draw a conclusion. EG. don't sit there and say "Nurse needs a buff". However if there was precedent for that claim, then you would use this data to support your claim. That's literally what they are doing on the back end. Coming up with a hypothesis about something in the game, looking at what is going on, then using data to validate the hypothesis and then make a change. Don't tell me they don't, I worked in game UX for a time this is exactly what gets done.
Using data to validate a claim is not the same as using data to draw a conclusion.
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I’m not sure what to think or feel after the QandA tbh.
It’s ok for Nurse and Blight to be low on stats because they’re harder to play, but it’s not ok for Freddy and Spirit to have high stats because they’re harder to play against.
They always tell us take the stats with a grain of salt and not to draw conclusions from them, but then say Myers doesn’t need looking at because his stats show he is doing fine.
OoO is fine according to stats but the bigger picture is that only 1 person in a team needs it lowering its pick rate, and even if the OoO dies often; the stats for the other 3 aren’t considered at the same time.
It’s so confusing and contradicting, I wish it was clearer as it seems like picking and choosing when things like stats matter, and when it’s ok or not for something to require skill to play or play against.
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Yet for a previous stat release, where they gave both all ranks and red ranks, Freddy was STILL on the top for both.
This consistency suggests that yes, Freddy is indeed too strong.
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"People aren't agreeing with me. ECHO CHAMBER!!!!"
seriously dude?
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Freddy isn't OP, he's just easy.
If you play Freddy, are reasonably skilled, and are against a team that is possible to beat, you're going to beat them.
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Just look at the people replying. You literally ALL have the same opinions on the game. Anything that suggests a killer is too good every single one of you are the first to jump in and say no. I see it all the time. This place is 100% killer biased, you can't dare say a bad thing about killers here. Take a step back and read you will realize.
For the record, yes some places like reddit are heavily survivor biased.
Furthermore I even acknowledge that yes, survivors in a 4 man SWF are the strongest thing in the game. But no one cares for that, they see "Freddy OP" in the title and IMMEDIATELY take the bait.
Hook. Line. Sinker.
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yes, without any informations about the realms, the map layouts, the perk loadouts, how rank is counted (if every player in the lobby have to be red rank, if ranking up after the game counts in this calculation), we can totally draw conclusions from this chart.
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BHVR discourages people from using that data to go "Aha! This chart confirms XYZ!" because this data does not take a number of factors into account. They've said this time and time again whenever they put up stats like this and in fact have even questioned whether or not they should keep putting up these stats for this exact reason.
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I'm not saying he is OP, I put that in the title to get attention.
He is too strong. This I'm saying from experience AS and AGAINST him.
If you don't believe he can be super oppressive play with any gen tracking perk of choice, Ruin, Undying, Pop, Swing Chains, and Jump Rope. You will 4k almost every game. The only survivors that will actually be a challenge for you are 4 man SWF.
Being awake doesn't stop his gen teleport. It reduces the recharge but the difference is minimal. It also means that he can more easily sneak up on you are I point out with his built in stealth. All it takes is 1 hit to put you to sleep, and if he can get close enough either because of teleport or stealth he should easily be able to get that first hit on you, easily negating any effort you put in to stay awake.
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I'll be the first one to say that Freddy is way too strong for how easy he is too play. He has too many tools that are similar (and in some cases, better) than what other Killers have. I just don't like the use of the stats as literally the first thing you see in this thread. I have bad memories of all the internet fights I had with people trying to use the last set of stats to ask for nerfs or disregarding other's opinions because they didn't line up with said stats.
Do I think Freddy needs a nerf? Hell yes.
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No, according to the stats, nurse is one of the few almost balanced killers who's kill rate is around 50%, which is what "balance" is
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He still has power over you though.
- He is invisible at, basically, all times.
- He can teleport or fake teleport.
- He's a basic M1 Killer and if he hits you are already dead.
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The title says "red flag" as in "please investigate this with more scrutiny". I'm not claiming it as definitive proof, but with the very detail breakdown I gave of why he is so strong PLUS the chart I have a good argument. You even agree he needs to be toned down, so why come into the thread to disagree with me? If it's true does it matter where it comes from?
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They know he is the strongest killer in the game. They do plan on looking at him later. Just they don't want to touch him because he was recently changed in a big way. In addition to that - the fact that the only reason he is so strong is because he has exactly the tools the killer needs to do well in this game. They need to use him as a mold to buff ALL the other killers to be on the same playing field as Freddy.
Probably gonna blow your mind that Freddy is actually balanced, and you're just bad at the game. All the killers in the game should be as strong as Freddy, and have the same utility he does. Gap closer, anti-looping, can quickly traverse the map, and force survivors to ignore primary objectives. These are all things Killers need as essentials.
Your cry for another m1 easy to loop killer is just going to be ignored by the devs.
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Swing chains and jump rope aren't even that good, look at the numbers.
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Again Freddy was on the top of the chart last time, AND they even gave a red rank chart which he was also on the top of by a wide margin.
There is tons of evidence to support what I'm saying. I'm not drawing this conclusion solely from this chart. Stop trying to dismiss it by taking what the devs said out of context. AND YES YOU ARE TAKING OUT OF CONTEXT because I have multiple sources to validate my claims, the chart is just 1 more in the pile.
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Pig is walking that thin line of being only 16% of a single kill behind Freddy.
These are indeed troubling times.
*prays for Pig*
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Why would realms matter? Like really, because when you average it out the killers at the top will just be the more consistent across the realms. If you want to find a problem with the REALMS then you look deeper. Using that same information to determine killer strength is the backwards approach.
Also you keep dodging the fact he was at the top of the chart last time when they ALSO showed just red ranks. I highly doubt that he would stay consistent with previous all rank performance but go down in red ranks much if at all.
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Not disagreeing with you. I agree with basically everything you said in the OP.
Just have my own hang-ups about the stats. Sorry.
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The point that freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a high kill rate means that there are fewer people who play them but those who mained him are very good. Has nothing to do with being OP. You just read what you want.
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I never once tried to make any sort of claim in this thread over the validity of the belief that Freddy is too strong. I am saying that BHVR has repeatedly discouraged people from using these stats to make any arguments.
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"Probably gonna blow your mind that Freddy is actually balanced, and you're just bad at the game. "
Uhhh I guess you missed the part where I literally say I came to this conclusion by PLAYING HIM AT RANK 1. Not from playing against him.
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Just wanted to add something about Freddy and Spirit - that their pick rate is so high because they are easier to play than the stronger killers, while not being as bad as the others.
There was a question in the last survey about killer strength and ease of use; and I think there should be killers that allow less mechanically skilled players still feel like a scary killer, otherwise there is a point where a killer will hit as far as they can go with the less skill reliant killers and feel like they have no agency to affect the match outcome, and are unable to play skill reliant killers.
On console for example most of the stronger killers are restricted in performance by the lack of controller options and it honestly feels rubbish to be playing Trapper for example and hit that limit where you only feel like a killer when the survivors are low skill due to a favourable matchmaker or they make loads of mistakes you can take advantage off; but you will mostly play teams that run rings around weaker killers and you don’t feel like a killer at all.
Freddy is still an M1 killer with basically placeable Clown bottles, he can still be looped like all the others, he can still lose to survivors just holding W to waste time while gens are done in sub 5 minutes.
If anything I would rather they buff underused survivor things to even the gap between solo and SWF and then start bringing other killers up to the level of Freddy; rather than nerfing anything viable or strong and leaving this massive disparity between what is counterable depending on if you are solo or swf <3
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It was a good read besides this part.
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not. He very much is and the chart above confirms it. We need to discuss ways to fix this.
How does the chart confirm anything? You know the thing Behaviour tells us to not use to draw conclusions from every time they release one?
Example: Nurse apparently needs significant buffs, with her power overly punishing mistakes and worst base movement speed the chart confirms it by showing her Kill rate is 40% with a 10% difference from the 2nd worst Killer.
Plus you used the All Ranks one which is even less reliable for data (even though the Red Rank one is already unreliable due to many, many variables).
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You are still twisting their words. They don't want you to draw a conclusions SPECIFICALLY FROM CHARTS.
But if I have other evidence, including past stats and experience on both ends, and valid arguments as to what exactly is the problem and how to fix it, that is literally how you are supposed to do things. OMG. Just stop. It is a very clear with what I present there is a problem.
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The rope add-ons are still one of Freddy's better add-ons, because Freddy has some pretty bad add-on options. It's really ropes or the drawing add-ons as far as non-iri add-ons go. The only other thing I would consider is the blindness add-on just because OoO exists.
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I said "you will 4k almost every game" That's not saying EVERY GAME.
You can see the teleport but it doesn't change the fact he can come to your gen faster than any other killer, even Nurse or Billy. If he has Ruin or Pop your gen is toast.
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Exactly. I use a Sheep Block for OOO, but otherwise it's ropes. There really is no other option, a passive action penalty is very strong at the end of the day.
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I am not twisting their words in any way. This is exactly what they are trying to avoid.
If you want to make arguments about Freddy being too strong and provide evidence to support that, by all means. What BHVR is discouraging is using the chart as evidence.
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You can't hear him until he is within 32m, and if you are awake you can't see him until he is within 32m. He can also fake the teleport to force you off a gen and come from a different angle. It is EXTREMELY easy to sneak up on survivors if you mix real and fake teleports.
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I think they just don't want people on the forum to freak out tbh. You also clearly can't take results in a vacuum with Nurse being the obvious example of why; sometimes there are other factors that make the kill rate a poor representation of a killer's viability (e.g. learning curve, Rift challenges to push someone to use a killer they're less familiar with). I can't think of anything that would be artificially inflating Freddy's kill rate, though, unless people very frequently hook suicide against him because they hate playing him, or something.
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Yes let's pat each other on the back and laugh instead of presenting actual arguments. SMH
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so I guess pig is op huh? by your logic at least.
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No because I didn't draw this conclusion SPECIFICALLY FROM THE CHART.
You people should read a thread before commenting. This is like the 8th time I've said this now.
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Exactly! But dear jebus no don't show a chart as evidence of claims, even when you provide other evidence this single piece is inadmissible becauses the devs said so.
I can't believe people around here, thank you for being a reasonable person.
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You can't hear him until you can see him. At least with other Killers you can watch them from afar.
You can see his teleport but it almost always forces you off the gen, and if he fakes it, or teleported somewhere else that's wasted time for you. So it becomes a game of "Do I stay and assume he's not coming or get some distance so he doesn't catch me?"
You are reducing his chase to nothing more than "I'mma chase you and drop these here snares hoping you'll touch 'em". Freddy just has to place a snare by a window, pallet or corner and you are screwed. There is no real planning or hoping. You drop 'em like crazy and if you get close enough you attack. The fact that there is no slow down to use it or a resource requirement just makes it that much stronger.
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You gonna make an actual argument or look like a jackass? Again if you dont have anything to discuss then go somewhere else.
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