This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)
Comments
-
Thank you for this. Exactly what we have all been saying.
"A high kill rate does not mean there is a problem, it suggests we should look at it."
Which we have a previous set of data that correlates strongly with this one, and then all my arguments in the OP as to what is going on. All of which just further suggest there is a problem.
1 -
I can tell you from experience that Freddy DOES get more a significant amount more trolls, afks, and suicides. Same for other powerful killers. I experience survivors giving up frequently against killers like spirit, nurse, Freddy, nd pyramidhead. A lot of survivors just don't want to play against a killer with slowdown, so they let you hook them and then suicide so they can be onto the next match. I experience the same thing with legion frequently. Survivors dick around against "boring killers" so they can go bully a clown or something in the next match.
0 -
Your previous feelings/posts regarding Freddy are irrelevant to my comments regarding Pig's extremely disproportionate pick/kill rate, multi-faceted kit, slowdown add-ons, and anecdotal experiences - I'm not seeing the relevance of whether I made the claim before - Opinions can be formed at any time - I'm making it now.
You're free to discuss or dismantle my claims regarding Pig at any time - They're in this thread.
1 -
Can we finally please buff/rework Plague into a viable state? She's been the least played killer in the game since she came out and consistently underperforms due to how unreliable her power is. She lacks any map pressure and can't even prevent genrushing.
Her bp-income is abyssmal and her emblem-scoring equally bad. And her killrate always has been among the worst in DbD across all ranks, there's a reason why she's considered one of the weakest killers in the game. Also no new cosmetics since 8 months, instead they give us lazily recolored skins on the Rift locked behind their season pass system.
I really love Plague's aesthetic and theme but from a gameplay and commercial viewpoint she's a complete failure.
0 -
Your irrelevant diatribe aside, suicides on hook count in match statistics - DCs on either side nullify them.
The point in question was whether suicide on hooks ate prevalent against these 'unfun' killers in matchmaking.
It's not a killer vs survivor issue, regardless of whatever you're trying to frame.
1 -
You're making it now... purely because of the chart. That is the key difference.
Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...
1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.
2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares).
3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.
4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.
You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.
0 -
I guess you won't be addressing anything I've said, then.
1 -
Here I edited the post but w/e
_________________
Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...
1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.
2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares). He also has way better synergy with every top tier perk in the game, INCLUDING Pigs own Surveillance, and even to an extent Make Your Choice since he could, in theory, teleport back to a hook right after a save.
3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.
4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.
Now that I've dismantled your entire position I'm not going to discuss Pig because the thread is about Freddy. You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.
0 -
The problem I see with your conclusions are, they're all anecdotal based. You're using strictly your own experience without discussing with other people who play Freddy. The experience that 1 player has isn't representative of all experiences.
I'm a bad bad player but I main Freddy. I get roughly half win half loss. The wins can be hard but the losses? When a team wants you to lose, you'll lose. This isn't a direct comment on balance, more I'm using the same anecdotal evidence you are. As far as I'm concerned, Freddy could use a buff because I'm not winning as many games as I'd like. 🤣😂
0 -
More importantly than your experience is the CONSISTENCY of your experience.
When I play Freddy at rank 1, the only teams that can CONSISTENTLY challenge me are 4 man SWF. Other groups might challenge me at times but it's not consistent. The only times I lose as Freddy, consistently, are when I make big mistakes or, sadly, because the game is failing (Xbox frame rates get worse and worse as you play, you need to reset the game every once in a while). Additionaly, as survivor Freddy is the most consistently difficult killer to play against. That means regardless of the player, other survivors, the map, the perks, or just good ole RNG, Freddy gives the most challenge CONSISTENTLY.
On top of this it's not just my opinion. A lot of my friend share this opinion with me that Freddy is too strong. Some are killer mains with thousands of hours.
So when I talk about my experience I'm talking about my experience, other's experience that I know or play with regularly, and the CONSISTENCY of all that experience over the last year or so, whenever it was they reworked Freddy.
0 -
I guess my counters will never be read if you're not willing to discuss :(
1 -
Not going to lie - Hatch giving is something that I did not even consider.
Thanks for the insight.
1 -
Ok but opinions are still opinions, yes?
Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't? Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost? Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power? This would determine if his power was too strong. Also, can you give me information on how many times survivors actually run over traps or get caught with fake pallets?
Your conclusions are all anecdotal evidence with 1 specific chart that BHVR said literally do not do what you're doing.
Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it.
You have no argument because you have no basis for comparison. You have no idea what is and isn't right with his kit. You don't even know how often his powers are used.
1 -
Copy paste them I'll reply. I don't have the time to read through 9 pages sorry.
0 -
I think I'm just going to make a new topic and get some community opinions/insight.
Hope to see you there :)
0 -
Fourth comment on page 2.
0 -
Yes. I did. It's still all anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence means jack if you're trying to use facts for your arguments.
The fact of the matter is, you are using your own experiences to say something is right or wrong. He does not have any data to back up his arguments. Just vague statements of "this is my experience". Cool story bro, but what about those that don't have that experience?
0 -
"Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? "
34%. I got that from the chart because that's what the chart literally is.
"Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't?"
Why does this matter? He has very close to an average of a 3k, meaning 1 person is getting hatch enough to lower it and then Freddy is losing a 3k just enough to keep him below it. He is still ABOVE every other killer, including objectively strong killers like Spirit, Nurse, and Oni. And just as devs made a point about why Nurse's kill rate is so LOW, I could make the same points about Freddy's is so HIGH.
"Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost?"
Honestly irrelevant. We aren't looking at builds we are looking at just Freddy. If I was saying "this particular build on Freddy is OP" this would be relevant to discuss.
"Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power?"
Again irrelevant. Freddy not using his power is basically an m1 killer, but even then he has passive effects that other killers do not get.
"Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it."
My observations of my own experience, other's experience, the consistency of all that experience, AND 2 sets of data to validate that experience. They are facts at this point.
0 -
Ok let me rephrase this. Please, what kind of hard evidence do you have? Other than your gut feelings (which can easily be wrong or ignore other sets of data that are relevent)?
Do you have ANY evidence other than "my friends and I see him win a lot with strong perks so he's bad". This isn't evidence. Irs your gut feeling. I don't care if you've played literally 24 hours a day 7 days a week since it released. You're still using 1 *small* set of data. Your own. That's it.
0 -
If you want to win arguments and debates, bring facts. Anecdotal evidence gets you nowhere and I see a lot of anecdotal evidence on both sides here.
0 -
You do know that Killers are supposed to be "OP" and freddy still has counters. I've escaped multiple and multiple have escaped me.
So it ain't that hard.
1 -
Forgive me I didn't read the whole thing but from what I seen your right Freddy is crazy good and I can say both tinkerer and discordance are disgusting on Freddy I don't play this game to be over competitive but there is no lying how strong that is hell at one point I believe I use to use on Freddy BBQ discordance tinkerer and bloodwarden I believe it called to be fair I'm no pro at the game I'm only purple rank but my experience with this have been op as hell but like I said I don't play overly competitive I just used perks that sounded good for my playstyle
0 -
Plus how could Freddy hit a survivor if they weren't in the dream world? You are pretty much making Freddy 100% useless based on the "he must hit them first" yet it is known he can only attack when you are asleep.
0 -
Let me ask you this, what "hard evidence" would satisfy you? Because I don't have access to all of BHVR's data. Therefore all I can give you is my experience and what data they have given, but even then I make completely valid arguments about Freddy.
Everyone wants to contest how I came to my conclusion instead of my conclusions themselves. Explain to me how anything I said about him is wrong. That he doesn't have the best gen pressure in the game, or free passives no other killer gets, or semi-stealth, or anit-chase mechanics.
0 -
The counter to this is have people split up and be doing multiple gens at once. Freddy can only be in one place at once, so to counter that, spread out. 1 person looping well can run a Freddy in circles even with his traps. Don't be afraid of his teleporting because most of the time it's a mindgame. Also don't run towards a gen if you can help it because he can just teleport to it and hit you as you're running by.
0 -
???
Not really sure if you are making a joke or misunderstood something I was saying in the OP.
0 -
As you just said, you don't have access to bhvrs data. That is exactly where I'd look. Especially since the devs have told you to not only look at that chart. Unless I missed it, you don't even know what criteria the "win rate" is in that graphic. (This one I might have missed and it'd answer how many people escaped vs died.) The point of that question is, what constitutes a "win"? All 4 killed or just 2 killed? If it's only 2 that means 2 people still escaped and won. That would be pretty balanced, yes?
Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?
0 -
As far as I can tell, I can still hit survivors which then puts them into the dream world. Maybe I have the mechanics backwards?
0 -
It's not "win rate' it's kill rate, therefore we know exactly how they get it. By killing survivors. The more survivors they kill, invariably, the stronger of a killer they are.
"Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?"
A good Freddy will catch you because of snares, so I highly doubt this claim.
0 -
He will if you keep looping the same loop. Move away. I literally just listed to someone else how to counter Freddy. It's not hard.
Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill.
My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up. I main Freddy. I still lose games. Somewhat often. And I'm not even in red ranks. I lose more than i win though. Having data of kill rate doesn't actually tell you if it's *win rate*. There's a difference.
And yes, kill rate can LEAD to win rate, but that's not definitive.
0 -
Doc has a 7% pick rate EWWWWWWW!!!!!!
1 -
Doc I have a far harder time countering than Freddy. His giant ass spark that gets a good portion of the map is aarrgghhhh.
Side question - what does bhvr consider a "win" for the killer? 1 kill? 2 kills? 4 kills?
0 -
Its because they have passive sleep.
Fox stated that if he were to change the dream mechanics that he would change that the dream time wouldn't count down until you hit them for the first time. But the timer just means you are in micro sleep. Which also means that Freddy could theoretically hunt you down. Removing the timer until the first hit would not canonically make any sense to his lore.
1 -
According to that chart we also need to massively have nurse buffed. Also pig is OP and needs a nerf. Also leatherface is better than spirit so she doesn't need a nerf and I'd totally fine.
Also. As a nurse main with 1.2k hours. She is by far the best killer in the game. Like miles away.
2 -
"Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill."
A 'win' is subjective in this game. Kills are not. No one is basing their arguments on wins, they base it on kill rate and killer effectiveness.
"My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up."
Except I have 2 sets of data to back it up.
0 -
Wait, Freddy has lore here? #########.
I'm a huge FredHead (it's why I main him) but it's obvious they used the remake version for him, which is bbllaahhhhhh. Microsleep is meh from a canonical perspective.
I figure they patterned him off the new Freddy for licensing reasons but man, I think OG Freddy would be amazing. And Nancy (instead of Quintin. Lame.) Bur since we have a Nancy, get us a Tina. Or even an Alice. Someone from the original series!
1 -
No. You don't.
0 -
There is not enough evidence. Good try though.
0 -
It makes complete sense, what about it doesn't make sense? The lore is supposed to be that he gets his power from people remembering him. If he never attacks someone he can't be remembered.
Furthermore lore should not supersede gameplay. It's a simple change that would make things better for both sides.
0 -
I do. Just because they said "don't draw conclusions" does not mean that the charts are meaningless. When you consider ALL this stuff the picture becomes pretty clear that Freddy needs to be tuned down some.
0 -
That's not how Freddy gets his power in the new movie. They never explain how he gets his power. He just really likes fear because it makes him all tingly inside, like Nancy did before he got flambe'd.
The old movies, him being remembered didn't really come into play until Freddy vs jason. If remembering was a thing, in freddy's dead the entire town remembered him.
0 -
You have 1 chart.
0 -
Vet me hard evidence and we will talk. Until then anecdotal evidence is useless. And that's all this forum (and to be fair, most gaming forums) has. It's ok - it's fine, but when pressed for facts, you can't use feelings.
So if "win" is subjective then I'd first like to know what the average is on kills per match. If he has 5000 matches and manages to kill at least 1 person every match, that's not really a bad thing. If he has 500 matches and kills all 4 every time, that's another. But he has counters.
0 -
Have I argued that Freddy is fine? Have I argued that Freddy doesn't need to be changed? I'm perfectly fine if he needs change. But I need to see something more than just whining.
Post edited by Rizzo on0 -
Lol and yet none of this addresses the fact that you have no hard evidence. Just because you don't like being pressed doesn't mean it's an invalid argument. (By the way, you fall into group 4. Just an FYI)
0 -
The only bhvr stat you have is 1 graphic showing pick rate vs kill rate unless bhvr has actually shared their data with us all and I missed it.
The only echo chamber I see here is the anecdotal evidence chamber. Get me some hard data. Freddy is counterable, like hex perks.
0 -
They released a stat dump probably about this time last year, a few months after Freddy's rework, and even there he had a significantly higher kill rate at all ranks. They also included red ranks, where he was still the highest by a wide margin.
Comparing that one to this one it seems that EVERY killer's kill rate went down, but Freddy remains above every other killer by a statistically significant amount.
Also I never claim anything about counter play. YES he can be countered, I won't deny that, but he is still a very strong killer so much that he has the highest kill rate for well over a year.
0 -
Fair. Point noted.
I'll be clear. I do not know if Freddy is good or bad because I do not have enough information to determine that.
If I go by my own anecdotal evidence as well as the evidence I see of streamers, then I find I rarely get 4 kills, most of the time it's 1. I can't get to the other side of the map if my power is on cool down, so when they spread out I have no way of countering.
So as far as I'm concerned, Freddy isn't good enough. But I know better than to use my anecdotal evidence.
0 -
Bhvrs Stats aren't wrong. You're just taking them farther than they need to go, as even stated by them.
0 -
Ok THIS is getting somewhere! Tell me more.
This is good!!! This is data! Even if it's old days it's still something!! Now, give me some figures. Let's work out the math so we can provide stats to the devs that can show them where the breakdown is.
0
