BBQ Suggestion
This is probably going to get a lot of hate, so buckle up, kiddos. If I don't think you read this, I'm not going to take you seriously and you'll be ignored.
BBQ should EITHER let killers see auras when they hook a survivor OR give bonus bloodpoints for hooks, not both. Furthermore, the auras revealed when hooking should be for healthy and injured survivors, not survivors who are dying.
BBQ is probably the most powerful killer perk, judging by how frequently it's used. The information it provides is very valuable, and the bonus points are huge. However, players use it all the time to perpetuate a strategy that is extremely distasteful to survivors, and results in attempts to counter using perks like Unbreakable. When you down two players and leave one slugged, BBQ means there are almost no consequences. You can just hook one survivor, see where the other one crawled while you were hooking, and pick them up for another immediate hook. Hell, if you bait out another survivor trying to heal their slugged teammate, you can slug that one too. You could down the entire team and hook each person individually, and still find the other slugs because of this perk.
Killers seem to find no issue with leaving people lying on the ground for up to four minutes, which is how long it takes a survivor to bleed out. That is four minutes where the player does absolutely nothing. They get no objectives done, they don't help their team, and they earn no points aside from the bare 300 given when you recover. Meanwhile, the killer continues running around, swinging at other survivors, kicking gens, and wandering through the grass looking for the slug. If they get another person down, they get to see the slug's location for free. Woo-hoo, that's two players hooked for minimum effort, and a ton of wasted time for the survivor the killer didn't pick up the first time.
The perk encourages consequence-free slugging. As things stand, the only consequence is the much-reviled Unbreakable letting a slugged survivor and "easy hook" get back up and limp away. If killers leave bodies on the ground, they deserve to lose survivors to Unbreakable and bleed-out. There is no reason they should get extra points for wasting another person's game time and getting greedy for kills.
Killers can also use BBQ to make up for other bad tactics like tunneling and camping. If they camp, their score is almost halved, depending on how dedicated they are to staying at the hook. Slap on BBQ, though, and it is doubled, because you got four hooks, and thus maxed your tokens. Why play a different strategy when you can just stand in front of a hooked survivor and down potential rescuers for the same amount of points that would actually take work? This is what encourages survivors to use Borrowed Time and Decisive Strike. They don't risk taking a teammate off the hook just for both of them to be downed and re-hooked. They suffer through a trade, or the killer gets DS'd because they tunneled off the hook.
If people played like they were interacting with actual humans instead of like the bots weren't letting them win, this wouldn't be an issue. Unfortunately, they don't seem capable. Killers openly advocate slugging for 4ks because there are no consequences if survivors don't have the right perk. When players don't use these perks, they plateau and can't climb any higher, but also can't fall low enough to have reasonable matches based on skill alone. Thus, more give up on playing their own way and learn to get sweaty and go meta.
Tune in next time for my piece about why Insidious and Iron Grasp should be reworked or removed from the game altogether!
Edit: After considering a few reasonable responses, I will suggest that BBQ only show the auras of healthy or injured survivors, not dying survivors. If a killer wants to find slugs, they have a base perk for it already. This way, a killer who chooses to slug for kills risks losing points for survivors bleeding out, being picked up by someone else, or using Unbreakable.
And for those concerned, when I'm slugged and a killer isn't using anything that makes it easier to find me, I crawl to the most covered, hard-to-see spot I can find and bleed out. I figure, if they're fine with me losing points while I'm dying, they'll be fine losing points when they don't get to hook me.
Comments
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All I got out of this was you dislike that killers use BBQ reads to find a slugged survivor (most likely YOU.) BBQ is a good perk but not even remotely close to the "strongest" it's used because it is universally useful in nearly every build AND you get double points. The entire perk is a perfect example of a perk done perfectly: it motivates you to NOT camp or tunnel and rewards you accordingly, with useful points and aura reading to help you find a different survivor. I'm sorry but I disagree with you on every one of your points, I think BBQ is the shining example of a perk done perfectly and I wish more were like it.
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Ehm okay First of all, it took survivor long enough to get the devs to add a useful meaning to we are gonna live forever, the survivor equivalent to bbq, not in terms of use but bp increase to ease the grind. What you propose would mean that the devs would have to also revert wglf back to simple bp boost or take the boost of.
And I don't think many people use bbq the way you described but to ease the bp grind like me. Even so wglf with it's new additional healing speedup would be a direct counter to your argument by halving the time to heal a slugged survivor.
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Except no one uses WGLF because they're too busy being unbreakable and stabbing killers in the neck. Just because BBQ has counters doesn't mean it isn't used and abused in the ways I described. The higher I've climbed as survivor, the more of this I've seen. Slugging is extremely popular in red ranks. The reason I put scare quotes around "easy hook" is because this is what killers have called it after they slugged me or another surv and went on to down someone else who happened to be nearby. The extra BP are great. The aura reading is fine on its own. The way it's used to slug without consequences is aggravating.
Also, the thing I described with killers tunneling and camping each survivor and using BBQ to make up for the points lost for that strategy? It's real. I've played against face campers who use BBQ specifically for that purpose. I asked them in endgame chat.
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Camping and slugging are the issues, not BBQ. The devs need to balance the game so that both sides can have fun playing to win.
Lots of killers use BBQ and don't camp or slug. BBQ encourages killers to hook different survivors and leave the hook. That some killers don't use it for that purpose doesn't mean the perk should be gutted. I'd like to not lose one of the only two perks in my BP build that does something useful.
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This perk makes the camping and slugging far more rewarding. Sure, some killers might use it honorably. I respect that. I don't think the majority of killers are honorable. I think they tend to forget they're playing with other people and get mad when they don't get kills they think they deserve, and they make up for it by using strategies, like camping and slugging, that make it easier for them.
I think I've gotten about as high as it's possible to go as survivor without using the full Unbreakable/DS/DH/Adrenaline build, and this is what I run into almost every match. At least, when I'm not accidentally running roughshod over a rank 13 who deserved better. As killer, I haven't yet put enough BP into Bubba to make BBQ teachable, so I don't have much to say except I want it for the BP. But I also plan on running it with other BP boosting perks, which means a less-than-optimized build.
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What rank are you at?
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BBQ is run so frequently because it's double bloodpoints and a decent tracking effect. Not because it's strong - if it didn't double the killers bloodpoints, it would barely be used, because it has so much very, very easy counterplay. Hide in a locker. Hide behind a generator. Get within range. For a tracking perk, it doesn't do its job very well.
Now, Thrilling Tremors? Whispers? Tinkerer? THOSE are good tracking perks. If they had the same BP effect, you would see them far, far more than BBQ.
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@VicThor Four. I haven't quite reached three yet, though I am trying to see if I can without slotting the standard meta perks. I don't really wanna lose my Kindred just so I can pick myself up off the ground once per match.
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I am on the same rank and I didn’t experience that much slugging except when someone plays the Twins or killers who slug for 4k. I believe BBQ is a fine perk, i don’t get why would you remove the BP bonus. I don’t care if the killer gets more BP.
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Yeah, my build I run with on pretty much every killer is BBQ, Distressing, Beast of Prey, and either Lightborn or Whispers. Usually Lightborn these days, which means BBQ is the only tracking perk I have and most killers don't have anything built-in to help with tracking.
In terms of "honorable" killers... I mean, it shouldn't be on killers to provide survivors with a fun match. The fact that DbD is designed in such a way that the killer has to gimp themselves so survivors can have fun (which I usually do, and I still got accused of tunneling, which was actually quite frustrating) is poor game design. Playing to win shouldn't make the other side miserable; tactics that work should provide a challenge to the other side, not make them feel like they're being punished for playing, but here we are.
BBQ exists to try to encourage killers to play in a way that's fun for survivors, and gutting it probably wouldn't stop killers who play like jerks from being jerks, but the ones who take advantage of all BBQ has to offer by playing nice might stop playing nice. When I play a killer who doesn't have BBQ unlocked yet, I become... frustrated. Because the point gain is so crap without the multiplier. I feel like I don't get anything out of hooking and I stop hooking survivors and just slug, because it's easier. And I've talked to enough players on the forum to know I'm not the only one who gets frustrated and/or despondent playing killer without BBQ. It's a good perk. It's DbD itself that's the problem.
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Maybe I just have bad luck with killers that have a hard-on for 4Ks. This crap happens to me every night. And I don't think the BP is the problem, except in those cases where it's used by face-campers. My problem is that killers use it to slug, then find the downed survivor by hooking someone else.
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If people say Noed rewards bad Killer
Then it would be the same for Bitter murmur, able to see Survivors at any distance for every Gen done.
BBQ rewards Killer doing a good job...
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I didn't read everything, but if they get rid of the double bloodpoints I'll drop the game on the spot. The grind is horrible and i hate having to play with basically 3 perks. Who runs bbq on hag? I rarely get value from it.
BTW, survivors hate camping right?
Well this is the best perk to make killers go away!
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BBQ is one of the best designed perks in the game. It rewards Killer's for not tunneling and it encourages them to not camp.
If you are upset about being slugged, make changes to reward Killer's for hooking people rather than leaving them slugged. As it stands, this whole spiel reads like you just got out of a particularly frustrating game.
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The only thing that annoys me about BBQ is that it should encourage players to go for different people (aka no camping or tunneling), but if someone does that, they can still achieve double BPs.
I would like to see a system which only grants stacks as long as all Survivors are alive. Someone who does not tunnel and camp (and from the Forums, nobody seems to do that, despite getting hit with DS constantly *wink wink*) will not get all stacks then. So everyone on the Forum should be fine with that.
The big issue with that is that I cant think of any way to prevent Survivors from killing themselves on first Hook just to deny future BBQ-Stacks. Maybe if they die on first hook while using the "attempt escape"-Option would still grant Stacks, but eh.
So yeah, thats the only annoying thing - it should reward players for going for different people, but if they dont, they still get the reward. Was even worse with pre-Nerf Moris.
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Sure, it's not on the killer to provide a "fun experience" for survivors. It's also not on survivors to die for you because you're the killer. Regardless, there are five people in every match, like, living breathing people with thoughts, and it's worth more to all of them to have a good game. And I'd say that all comes down to bloodpoints. If a killer cares more about getting a 4K than the reward they get for playing, their perspective is skewed.
This is a game. It has no pro level or actual competition. There's no real reason to screw over someone who waited ten minutes in queue to play with you by making them lie on the ground for two minutes, then killing them anyway.
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Nah, I've actually been considering this for a while. As I have mentioned in previous posts, I see slugging in most of my matches. Most of the sluggers use BBQ to find their slugs when they hook someone else. Being slugged is less than fun, it means you're gonna get [BAD WORD] points from a match, and it wastes your time. The killer doesn't realize because they're still active in the match and time passes differently when you're actually doing things.
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I actually considered something like that as well. The concept I kinda had was a "timer" or cooldown of sorts on survivors. If you hook the same survivor while they're still on that cooldown, it docks points for the hook, similar to how being within range of hooked survivors reduces your points. Perhaps the cooldown has tiers, so if you re-hook someone in fifteen seconds, you get nothing, in thirty, your points are reduced by 60%, in forty-five seconds, 30%, etc. Before anyone says these time increments are too long, it wouldn't be me making this change so don't expect me to know what an appropriate cooldown would be. That's for the devs to decide, if the were to implement this.
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Ah I forgot to address that point but isn't the penalty for staying near the hook aka camping which was implemented by the devs a score reduction for emblems only and does not even affect bp?
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Imagine thinking that BBQ is used to camp, when it gives the killer a reason to leave the hook.
Btw, your proposal of removing the aura reading would increase camping.
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I assume it does. And once again, I'm just basing this on after-match conversations with killers. According to them, BBQ doubles their score as long as they hook all four survivors, so even if they face camp, they still make around 32k per match, which should be equivalent to a perfect score.
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Yes it doubles the bp score but camping reduces the EMBLEM score not bp so there is no balancing effect due to the double bp.
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Well yeah, it sucks when killers play in a way that's not fun for survivors. When I play survivor, I play solo survivor, and the majority of my matches aren't fun. A lot of people playing the game, killers and survivors, seem to forget the other four are people, too.
It'd be nice if everyone played in a way that was enjoyable for everyone else, but experience shows us we can't expect that. Like I said, everyone should be able to play optimally with the goal of winning and not ruin the fun for the other players by doing so. DbD tries to use point systems to encourage "fun" play (both Bloodpoints and emblem points) but those are band-aid fixes that don't get to the root of the problem because there are people who would rather "win" than accumulate points.
Different people find different things fun. Some killers find BP rewarding, others find pips rewarding, and some find winning by getting a 4k rewarding. It's the same with survivors, they could feel rewarded by BP, pips, an escape, or something completely different like just getting to use some niche perk once in a match. That's not skewed, it's just different people feeling rewarded by different things.
A bunch of the tools at a killer's disposal aren't fun for survivors. Slugging? Survivors are stuck on the ground unable to do anything. Hooking? Survivors are stuck on a hook unable to do anything. Killing? The survivor's totally out of the match. Three of the main parts of the game remove survivors from actively participating in a match. It's not killers' fault that the game is designed that way, and the game is definitely designed for killers to use those three things to win.
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Then would their BP score be low just because of their lack of time spent actually doing things, like chasing, breaking, using their abilities, etc.? Not just because of their hook proximity when they do act?
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Sorry to whatabout you here but I rarely see the 4 living breathing people take a step back when they notice that they stomp there opposition. In the worst case they stop progressing the game to taunt the killer which may have already given up instead of showing mercy in form of sacrificing themselves or anything.
I personally have never seen any behaviour in this regard while I made it my policy to spread up to 12 hooks evenly (therefore using bbq) and only kill when they were so bad that they didn't finish 5 gens by the time I made it to hook 8 and still would give the last survivor hatch, carrying them across the map or ignoring them to find it for them (one time I was clown on swamp and threw bottles up like firework, didn't work and I had to carry them to the hatch.)
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But the thing with hooking and dying compared to slugging is you can be unhooked and run away, if the killer doesn't insta-down you. You can re-queue and find a new game after you die. When you're slugged, you're still in the match, stuff is still happening, and you're lying on the ground wondering if you're gonna hit the end of your bleed-out timer before the killer comes back for you, or if he's just going to use you to bait out another survivor.
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Yes they don't get much bp when they camp but bbq only doubles the amount and if they camp so hard that they get less than 10k they get less than 20k all in all. And btw when they camp this hard than bbq's few seconds auraread shouldn't be a problem. Also when the slug is far enough away that they can see you and they leave you so long that unbreakable would be usable then you should have ample time to crawl away.
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Damn I would love direct text chat right now this 2 arguments parallel thing is unnecessary.
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That's true, if all of these things are happening in conjunction. The situations I describe are separate, but still based on things I've actually seen or experienced in games. If a face-camper is using BBQ for the BP gains, they're not really using it for the aura reading. If the killer is slugging for 4Ks, they're using it for the aura reading, so they can have more than one survivor downed and still locate them all. These are two very different kinds of killers, but they're using the same perk to support their playstyle.
I won't name names, mostly because I don't remember them all, but I will say these types could each be represented by chainsaw boys and the Blight.
Edit: Yeah I agree, this is a lot to juggle in a forum thread.
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When it comes to dying, you may be able to re-queue, but 1. that could mean waiting for 10+ minutes before you get into another match, which is still time you're not actually playing, and 2. for SWF they don't get to leave and re-queue up, they have to sit and wait for their friends to die/escape.
With being slugged, a teammate could pick you up or you could pick yourself up using a perk, and if you get up before the killer gets back to you then you didn't lose a hook state. If you take the aura reading away from BBQ, killers won't suddenly stop slugging, they'll just either use Deerstalker or survivors will find themselves on the ground for the full four minutes only to bleed out because the killer has no idea where they are. It's bad for survivors if killers can't find them slugged: it makes them more likely to be stuck on the ground longer.
The most fun I had in DbD recently was running the build Power Struggle, Flip-Flop, Tenacity, and Windows of Opportunity. I actually prayed for killers to slug in my matches. Prayed for it. They rarely did, so I only got to utilize Power Struggle a few times, but oh man was it fun. If you hate slugging more than anything (and it kinda sounds like you do), run a build to counter it. Run No Mither (you'll die faster because killers are forced to hook you, but you said you'd rather die and move on than be slugged) or Unbreakable or Soul Guard.
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I have in fact noticed when I was clearly outplaying a killer. I am sure others notice, too. That's why some decide to be [BAD WORD] in the first place. In the past, I've even seen survivors who did really well let the killer kill them at the end of a match if it went poorly for them, and I've done it once or twice when I felt really bad about how a game went for someone. Not everyone is on a SWF death squad, looking for ways to thrash baby killers and make them into monsters.
I will say this, though. It can be difficult, depending on the killer you face, to pay enough attention to whether or not they're having a hard time. Stealth killers scare the crap out of me, and I know I've gone all-out in games against them and discovered after that they were like rank 13. One Wraith in particular comes to mind, and I felt terrible. I don't do meta builds, but I looped him and did gens and unhooked, all the while scared [BAD WORD] because I startle easily, and Wraiths make me jump. I had to apologize afterward.
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Dying and re-queueing still subtracts the however long you spend lying on the ground from the time it takes to find a new match. That's true about SWF... They're SOL either way. And there is a slightly better chance someone could get them up, if the killer isn't using them as bait, or hasn't slugged more than one person. Which is, by the way, something I am considering in all of this. I don't want to keep reciting things I've seen, but killers having three people downed at once is one that's come up. This is why it's so damn hard to solo queue, but there's also a non-zero chance that it can happen to SWF. It doesn't matter if you have comms, if you're not one of the white-knuckled psychotic 4-mans you see people talking about, you're still at risk.
Perhaps I'm a little vindictive, but if a survivor bleeds out, I think the killer deserves the point loss. I'll admit to crawling off when I knew no one could save me and letting myself die in some tall grass so they couldn't get the final hook. Because they wasted my damn time, and I'm not giving them points for Xv1ing my teammates while I laid in the dirt. The point of this isn't to kill BBQ, it's to make it less rewarding for people who use it for this tactic. To that end, I might have an idea. If it only showed auras of healthy or injured survivors, a killer would still have info to help them find other players, but they wouldn't be able to use it as their last resort to find slugs.
Also, I don't think I ever said specifically that I'd rather die than be slugged? I'd just rather it not be the go-to tactic for everyone who reallyreally wants a 4K, and for people who can instadown, and maybe I'd die as punishment for them. I tend to run a lot of weird builds as it is, though I'm still building my perk collection, and while I don't think I'd go with No Mither (because killers see it and think it's free real estate), Flip-Flop/Tenacity sounds like a fun combo.
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Would you rather be slugged for a minute or for four minutes?
Personally, I'd rather not spend the entire bleedout timer on the ground.
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In nearly 2,500 hours of play I've noticed that killers are not as viable without using bbq. Especially when paired with hillbilly, nurse, huntress, blight, spirit, and now almost every killers now that some maps are smaller. You don't get any aura reading with we're gonna live forever.
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Ching Chong your opinion is wrong.
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Hahaha, I actually laughed at your little rant. Calm down, a frustrating match is due to Bums who just play to rub their wins in others faces or ruin others day. Fortunately the media and the mind exaggerates the trouble-makers making it seem like they're everywhere. In reality they aren't.
Also BBQ is a terrific perk, it forces killers to hook different survivors so tunneling leads to BP Bonus loss, and camping also means no double Bloodpoints.
BBQ also isn't a terrible effective perk either, it has limit to it's Tracking, it can only be used 12 times a game and it only lasts for a couple seconds it also shows far away people so you need to waste time getting to them.
Sorry, but I don't think your rant... Makes any sense. Next time, target Undying and how much fluff it has. Bye!
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Bbq is probably the most balanced killer perk in the game. I understand where you're coming from with this but it isn't just simply a bbq problem, it's a bad killer problem. Bbq is probably the healthiest perk in the game as it encourages killers to leave the hook and find other people and reward them for it with extra bloodpoints. If you take bbq away from a baby trapper it isn't gonna make him wanna camp less. It doesn't make sense to get rid of one of its quirks because if you get rid of the aura reading, the perk is completely useless. Killers aren't gonna run basically three perks just to get bp. And if you get rid of the double bp, well.. Why would you? It gives killers the motive to hook others to get stacks and find other people to get more stacks. Killers do use bbq as a substitute deerstalker but i don't see it as a bbq problem, I see that more as just a bad game design problem. If you wanna talk about a perk that encourages hard slugging I think you should take infectious frights into account. Ruin undying doesn't annoy me half as much as this perk does. The amount of times a billy has ended the game by slugging everyone with infectious is sad. And sure they will probably use bbq to find the slugs and get double bp but why would you nerf a perk because it's used the way it wasn't intended to be used? By that logic dead hard should be removed from the game because it's used for distance which wasn't intended for the perk at all. And I'm gonna go ahead and say it iron grasp and insidious do need a rework just so we're on the same level with something, but that isn't the topic
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I didn't read the whole essay but I saw a couple comments on you complaining about BBQ being directly associated to slugging like what?? 😂 I'm a constant Rank 1 killer and trust me half the reason most killers use bbq is for BP. I would much rather use Thrilling Tremors if it didn't have the BP part.
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I made an edit and added a little something to explain. Hope it helps!
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I said I was going to ignore people who obviously hadn't read the post, but yours called to me because you mention being rank 1. This isn't necessarily rank 1 killer stuff, though I've certainly seen a few who are willing to do *anything* for a win. This is everyone else trying to get there. Maybe, being at rank 1 for so long, you've forgotten what the ladder's like. For your enlightenment, slugging is an extremely popular tactic for people who want to improve their killer rank. Perhaps ask around, see what others think.
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Hm... I don't know, sounds more like you might have gotten a little too excited about this, if it got you laughing. Perhaps consider that you're suffering from projection as a defense mechanism of some kind. This is just something I've been trying to work out recently. If you don't agree, please find an actual reason for your disagreement, instead of merely describing how the perk works. I can read that in game or on a wiki.
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There's a lot to unpack here, and I'm not entirely sure you understood what I said. Either way, the difference between a perk like Dead Hard and BBQ is that Dead Hard does one thing and has a 40 second cooldown. Depending on the survivor, they might use it only three times per match, and it doesn't have the ability to make up for bad gameplay. It's just a single dodge per chase, and it requires timing. BBQ goes off every time you hook someone, and enables gameplay that can completely disrupt the match for the opposing side.
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I think, if killers aren't viable without it, perhaps players are underestimating its value.
And you make a good point. WGLF, the survivor equivalent of BBQ, has no aura reading. It could be combined into a single perk with Kindred, and then I think it would be closer.
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If you could actually read what the perk does you wouldn't be arguing.
Anyways, BBQ is a terrific perk that is meant to stop camping. If a killer camps then its your teams fault everyone died, do gens and escape. In that scenario the killer gets a small boost in BP and only one hook. So don't be altruistic gen-rush the soul out of the killer. Make him scream in Post-Chat and then relish in your relief as a filthy killer got almost no BP.
If the killer leaves the hook then you can rescue and then bring DS to counter these poor souls.
If this issue is extremely common then bring DS and BT.
BBQ also isnt that great a tracking perk, it can only activate 12 times a game each for only 3-4 seconds. On some maps it's really hard to see auras, the extra BP is just a nice touch to ease the grind. WGLF was a perk I ran alot, just because the double BP helped alot, it's buff has made it really good at recovering from slugging killers or snow-balling killers.
I'm sorry, but I don't understand your point of view. The tracking BBQ offers is decent but not amazing and the extra BP is a nice touch that everyone appreciates.
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BBQ is a strong perk, but the bp effect shouldn't have an effect on game balance
More said bbq is a perk that is meant to give killers far away information so they can go after another survivor and leave the hook behind, if you would much rather make its aura reading worse or non existent I can promise much more camping from players of all skill groups in dbd
bbq is balanced and has plenty of perk and non perk related counterplay
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If bbq was so balanced it wouldn't be in every game. It's the most meta perk, it works with everything every time. Remember when people said ruin wasn't OP back in the day before the nerf?
All i see on this forum are bad killers getting rekt. Beeing killer is so easy it's boring.
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BBQ is balanced, just because something is meta doesn't mean it's not balanced.
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i kinda see what you mean now. I’m also sure you’re tired of seeing every killer using it but it’s definitely not a guarantee 4K. Since it’s up to the killer to decide who they target, it’s up to the survivors to mind game. Like walking right for 4 seconds after someone’s hooked and then double back
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I’ve been saying b&c shouldn’t show aura of a diying surv for years
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See this is wrong because even when were gonna live forever which is a perk that used to do nothing but give bonus bp it was still used, so by that logic people are only using bbq for the aura reading 24/7 instead of bp and aura reading on top which is what actually is happening
If you play killer boring and think killer is boring thats on you, if you can't find the fun while only using meta and sweating that is a clue you are doing something boring
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