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The Executioner's problem
The Executioner's Power is that he has Barbed Wire that Can be placed down and if the survivor walks or runs over they would get the torment stats effect and can be caged or killed on death hook the problem is that it does not wear off so A lot of the time they just hook and Tunnel until they die and it rewards them for it One game I died after two minutes and The Executioner already had Ten Thousand Blood Points for those two minutes so why wouldn't they do it
These are some suggestions on what ill test to see if it will make the game more fun for both sides
- The Torment Effect is removed when put on a hook ( This makes it so the The Executioner uses his power when he has it and doesn't save it to get an easy kill)
- The Torment Effect is removed when you preform a safe hook ( This should try to make survivors altruistic and rewards those who do it)
- Another Idea but one I'm not sure about is having it time based like most Effects they have a time to it so like the Torment could have a Two minute timer but this would make survivors inflicted with it hide and make the killer tunnel even more
Lastly here is a video showing the problem I feel The Executioner has
Comments
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And had you had Decisive Strike and been caged instead... guess what?! He'd get an explosion notification of you being uncaged and head right there! Amazing that this killer's power is considered OK in the minds of the devs. And yet you'll still find hundreds of posts whining about DS on these forums!
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I agree that the barbed wire should wear off if you're healed or a certain amount of time has passed. Even when the doctor puts you in madness 3 you can break out of that. That continues to be the biggest problem with this game is the inconsistency with things like that. Precedents exist and some streamers and devs pretend that they don't.
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As someone who used to play a crap ton of pyramid head, I'm all for gutting how good of a tunneller he is. However, he should receive some kind of compensation as it would be a sizable nerf (even if the nerf is well deserved). Perhaps your first idea could be implemented and as compensation torment is applied if he successfully lands his punishment of the damned attack. That way cages would function as purely timesavers and a tool for snowballing (caging instead of slugging to avoid unbreakable and progress their hook stages). It's surprisingly hard to torment good survivors without the add-ons that increase the duration of trails staying in the environment, so maybe this could be a fair trade-off. He'd be a worse tunneller but he'd have a much easier time tormenting survivors.
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Your teammates did such bad saves and nobody were on gens lol. Pyramid is a very good tunneler just as bubba is a very good camper. If being tormented is a problem for you, try avoiding it at all cost.
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lol what? he's just been gutted to the point that nobody plays him anymore. Why is it that players of this game want to keep going and going until something is literally worthless?
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So because he's no longer easy mode he's therefore bad? Pyramid head is fine and would be fine even if they removed his ability to tunnel. Is he hard to do well with? Yes. Does that mean he's bad? No. Like with Nurse, you need to make reads to hit your power and is easily dodged if the wrong read is made. So, like Nurse, both can essentially ignore loops if played well. Unless your on Hawkins, hawkins as pp head is painful if the survivors abuse it, lol.
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The problem is that a lot of people play PH for the "easy way out". They like the cage mechanic not for the time save but that it allows them to bypass a perk like DS that would usually (rightfully) stun them and punish them for tunneling.
It's a player problem more than a design problem to me.
I'd like to add that personally I'd be 'fine' with making both killer and hook perks work against PH. He's pretty limited by a large number of perks right now.
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Probably because there is a possible solution for one killer
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Pyramid Head tunnelling is a choice and he is incredibly effective without it, these generalisations because of toxic players are bad, yeah its unfortunate tunnellers exist but guess what every killers has tunnellers and campers. I know that doesn't mean its fine to do these things but trying to get a killer nerfed further and/or get a rework because you don't like a very unrewarding capability his power has is just bad and on a small level, entitled.
Before you call me an entitled killer main or whatever I actually am a survivor main and I just actually play killer like a decent person.
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Agreed. This is why I think simply enabling perk interactions with cages would be a positive change. Good killer would take no punishment and have the added bonus of having a wider spread of viable perks on PH. You'd be able to tell whose a good or bad PH by simply looking at who complains.
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This ^^
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Its not that I want him nerfed to ######### I just would like his power to be more fun to play against him so maybe buffing him in other areas that he's weak in so it would be more of a rework and not a nerf
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Did you mean ineffective? I'm sorry but that was really confusing to read as I can't actually tell if you're agreeing or disagreeing with me. I think it seems more critical so I'll respond under the assumption you disagree. So anyways, The issue isn't that he can tunnel because love it or hate it, tunnelling is possible regardless of the killer. The issue is that he is WAY better at tunnelling. Every other killer has to slug for a minute if they want to tunnel or pick up and risk eating the DS. Good ol' pp head can just immediately cage you and even if you're genuinely being tunnelled it doesn't matter because pp head just gets to break the rules. The only way to actually use DS against pp head is to immediately jump into the first locker you find but I have a feeling locker DS'ing will be removed sooner or later which will lead survivors with literally no options if that happens. Plus as far as I'm aware, locker DS is seen as unfair so the survivor will be made out to be the bad guy lol.
At the end of the day, Pyramid head can take you out of the game very quickly if he wants and unlike with literally every other killer, there is very little to no counterplay to a tunnelling Pyramid head if you're tormented. (FYI this all depends on you being tormented, if you aren't tormented then he's basically just a normal killer, lol)
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Couldn't he still tunnel though? Instead of caging and then potentially eating DS after with your change, they could just hook and then cage to avoid DS no problem.
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Yes, every killer does have these, and in the long run PH suffers more from tunneling than the rest of the survivors. Its unfortunate I'm aware and im sorry you've had this experience, but not every Pyramid Head does this and punishing the rest of the people who use him because of a toxic minority and either completely negating his strengths (not tunneling, but fast paced gameplay) or reworking him (which is stupid because he's balanced asf)
I've been tunneled by a Pyramid Head but I didn't come to the forums and cry to try and rally the masses
It's unfortunate, it happens, but if everytime this happened someone came to the forums to screech about it, it'd still be as effective as this, it would have none, because guess what, the only thing more tunnelly and or campy about PH is his ability to put you in a cage (which funnily enough is in a location ONLY HE doesn't know, unless he actively seeks the cage (punishing himself, allowing others to do gens), he will unlikely be near enough when the nearby nea urban evading or someone doing a gen uncages you.
At the end of the day
Pyramid Head needs no changes
The only change relevant to this, which would actually be a massive nerf to him, is allowing hook related perks to activate with cages (like DS and BBQ)
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He could, yes. But I feel it would significantly weaken the tunneling aspect currently. From what I see tactic is force torment on first chase, hook, tunnel to cage and then beeline for the unhook notification for a free kill. At the very least this would prevent tunneling from the first hook to cage. I don't think the objective should be to make it impossible, just discourage it as much as possible, it makes for a boring match for everyone.
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Wow. I didn't see this post earlier. I think you read just those patchnotes and didn't play him at all. He's still pretty opressive in a chase, the cooldown thing didn't lower his chase potential at all, it slightly nerfed the 50/50 (that shouldnt have even existed). His animation lock is still extremely strong and he outright counters vaults.
Most people I see who main him called it a straight up buff.
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My boi is getting slammed :,(
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"didn't lower his chase potential at all"
LMAO nobody calls it a buff. Nobody. Otz made a point about spamming his power, which isn't really true but thats it. Anyone else is parroting that. Most pyramid mains like myself recognize it for what it is - a nerf. 0.5 second cooldown reduction in return for being completely useless while transitioning, there are situations now where control of the chase has been given exclusively to survivor.
You can debate the extent of the nerf but you can not say in good faith it didn't lower his chase potential one bit. He feels so clumsy now. Trapped in cooldown while survivors vault windows and slam pallets right in front of you.
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No longer easy mode....oh please.
If they made cages into hooks then ######### is the point of the cages? so you can cut out 5 seconds of carrying someone to the hook? wow what a power.
How about focus on getting rid of BS like the DS/Unbreakable combo before nerfing the only killer with an actual chance at counterplay against it. Oh let me guess you want survivor to remain "easy mode"
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wait cages into hooks if you are talking about what I proposed then its not that at all
what I was suggesting was the effect that you can be caged is removed when you are hooked so you need to step in the barbed wire to have that effect again to make Ph want to actually use his power
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He should have a foam sword that takes 5 hits to down a survivor too because it's more fun for survivors! ^_^
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make it 10 then Sure why not
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Wait, so you want perks such as DS or BT to work with his cages? There would be much fewer opportunities where you would want to cage a survivor and automatically make p head a much weaker killer. I think that him being able to ignore survivor perks at the cost of him not being able to benefit from strong killer perks is what really makes him unique and I think it should stay.
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I need an explanation for this comment. How is pyramid head "worthless"?
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I'd be fine with players being able to remove torment if it were easier to apply it. Like if he didn't get slowed WAY down to lay it, or it lasted for the whole game, or his shockwave also applied it, or if it didn't ALSO get removed on the person saving you from a cage, or if it applied a slow, or if it could be put near stairs, gens, doors, hooks, or literally any high traffic area.
It is amazing how people who have never played as Pyramid Head are so quick to assure us that he's wildly broken. PH has the WORST addons available to him of any killer in the entire game. Only 3 have any use at all, and those are to increase the length of his shockwave. His torment trails have more limits on them than any other killer-placed trap or hazard. And, on top of all that, you can just CROUCH WALK and never get tormented. Try running Urban Evasion for once if all these terrible PH mains are invalidating your perpetual crutch auto-take hook perks.
PH sucks and has been nerfed twice already. If anything, he needs buffs (or at least a total addon overhaul). Learn to juke slightly to one side and he'll never do a thing to your team. Auto-attack killers are more dangerous.
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Again I'm not saying he needs a nerf he need a whole rework buff the things he is incredibly weak in so they can nerf the parts that make him too strong
and with the crouch walk sometimes in a chase you cant avoid it
for using unban evasion not everyone is going to use a perk good for 1-2 killers (not saying unban evasion is bad just I should not have to pick it for this reason alone) its like saying use calm spirit to avoid screaming at doctor shocks or clown bottles you should never feel obligated to run a perk to go vs One killer ( not saying they should nerf Doctor/clown just setting an example)
The suggestion I was making was that when you get hooked you lose the Effect that makes the executioner use his cage more often and not save it for death hook to get an easy kill also something that happened in the begging of the trial should not be a automatic lose for both killer and survivor
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I'm not crying about it and I'm not suggesting a nerf that hurts the majority
all I'm suggesting is that when you are hooked you loose the torment effect that makes PH users want to use the Cage people though out the match instead of saving it to get a cheap kill and skipping the final hook process and makes survivors have to worry about not stepping in the barbed wire throughout the match and but on the other hand not have a Instant death sentence
so if you and majority of the people use PH like that then This suggestion shouldn't hurt you at all
also Idk if its just me but I hate Urban evasion I never really see survivors use it unless the one to two Dumbasses who use Unban Evasion with Self Care
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Also This is what I should be tested never do I think a change deserves to be put in a game without testing it since if it really does hurt him to make him not playable then something else can be adjusted
The reason why I'm saying the you should lose the effect when you get hooked is because an Mistake you make in the Beginning of a trial should not be a death sentence to you
(if you get 2 comments my apologies I pressed send on one and it didn't save)
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Feels the same to me and I had over 200 hours on him in release month before getting bored. That said they could do something about turning with the sword in the ground. Something about it is so awkward and weird. Every time I play him after not touching him for a while I end up losing a few chases becaus eI forget about the weird turn radius during trail of torment.
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For me the obvious reason for the cages is to simply save time. Compare how much time is spent picking up, walking to a hook, hooking and then getting back to the patrol. It's a pretty significant time save.
I'd just like to be able to use more perks on him without gimping myself of the cages altogether. But obviously they wouldn't allow that without enabling survivor perks. And that wouldn't bother me as I rarely proc DS/BT.
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True, he can use his cages to save time as well as force survivors to run across the map to get the save, but I still don think that it should be this way. It is a really strong effect and taking it away would make this killer significantly weaker. You yourself may not run DS, but most survivors at high ranks do.
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I agree with you on most survivors running it but in regards to the cages dynamic with that perk, if you aren't immediately running to that cage by the time you see them again DS should be well out of action.
With DS and hooks I see it differently as someone can follow you and unhook the second your back is turned and you have the dilemma of "this guy is full HP and will take longer to down and may not be past 1st phase, this guy is injured and dead on hook but may have DS and that could cost me more /will punish me for their bad play". With the distance of the cage and the fact that the survivors have to guess where it is, if you aren't a tunneler it shouldn't even really matter as the time save from the instant cage would allow you to begin patrolling gens way faster and keep your pressure rolling. It should be well over 60 seconds before you see that survivor again. And if they run straight to you you know exactly what they want and can just ignore them/slug them as they waste their teams map pressure.
I know for most people Pyramid heads problem isn't the cages but the chase aspect and how easily he shuts down loops/vaults with little effort, but I feel this mindset is "optimal" loopers who absolutely HAVE to get as many loops as possible before dropping the pallet and end up paying the price.
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Survivors don't have to guess where the cage is, the p head does. I myself have actually memorized where pretty much all cages spawn. What I like to do is cage a survivor and go over to the caged area and yes, tunnel but only if it is convenient for me. If there is another person there who had already saved the person, I will go for who is closest to me or in a bad position which sometimes is the recently saved survivor. I also like to put trails right in front of a caged survivor since it actually doesn't make the trails disappear and will re-torment the caged survivor. If I go to the caged survivor and no one is there, all I do is place some trails and immediately move to patrol gens.
It isn't just DS that doesn't work with cages, it also includes BT, WMI, and off the record. Again, I don't play like a douche (constantly shaking my head and hitting survivors caged or hooked), but I do play to win so if I can conveniently tunnel a survivor I will definitely do that to get someone out of the game ASAP.
The cages are a fantastic and very good time-saver, but what really makes them shine is the fact that they can ignore perks. I know I have said this already, but this is what makes him go from a better huntress to a killer who will murder you at a very uncomfortable rate if you play poorly. Right now, I really don't think that he needs to be nerfed. He is in a better spot than most killers, the only thing I believe is his problem is him having mostly weak addons. Can he tunnel you pretty effectively? Yes, but he is much more manageable than you think. A lot of the time people include clips of them being tunneled out of a game by a p head, they usually just put themselves in a bad spot or have teammates save near the pyramid head. What the tunneling pyramid heads do most of the time is check the caged person for a few seconds and then leave (usually). What you need to do is perform a safe unhook that is stealthy. His cages should stay the same because they can still be dealt with rather effectively.
Yeah, the punishment of the dammed part of his power is very difficult when first learning him. It took me a while but I believe that I have got it down very well. Survivors hate him for this part of the power because they don't know how to deal with it. If the p head is bad, then yeah you could probably loop him. If the p head is good though, then what you want to do is constantly chain tiles together without looping predictably. This is how you deal with his shockwave
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Like you said it comes down to if the killer wants to tunnel a survivor. A pig could choose to tunnel a survivor with an active trap.
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Thank you for openly confessing how much is wrong with cages. You must feel like a relly gud killer pitching a tent around a cage.
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As I said, I don't tunnel if it is not convenient for me, but I said that I move on if no one is there. So no, I do not camp as you are implying, you must have not thought this comment out. Explain, please. In grand detail, these are discussions after all.
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In regards to guessing I mean that they can't run ahead of time to where it is. So they can potentially lost up to 20 seconds or so depending on how far it is. You can make a general prediction depending where on the map PH is but its not concrete. Sorry if that didn't come across.
I get your apprehension about perks like BT and such but in my opinion this is a good thing. While I don't play that way myself and it seems like you don't either. I've not played against a PH since his release that didn't immediately beeline to the notification knowing they had a risk free tunnel to death.
Camping/Tunneling is a playstyle that should be discouraged as its boring for the killer and boring for the 3 survivors who aren't being pursued or trying to bait chases and being ignored. Making killer/survivor perks work with them would only buff good killers by allowing more build variety (imagine Devour with quick cages and new Undying, for example). And would punish bad killers. My two cents.
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PH can't camp. His cages literally teleport when he's near them for too long. Plus he'll usually never slug a downed survivor if they are tormented. That 2 out of 3 annoying killer strategies gone (Camping and Slugging).
Anyway regarding the thread. I think a good change to lessen PH's tunneling while still making him more powerful in other aspects is to make the Iri Seal basekit but it also activates after an uncage while removing the loud noise notif. That way the unhooker and the hooked survivor get to leave Scott-free while everyone else is screwed. Iri Seal is weak enough that making it basekit would just be niche instead of OP.
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He has to be within 5 meters or so to not cause it to teleport which is laughably low ingame. Also is iri seal that weird insidious on trails one? Honestly he has no many bad add ons that I tend to not use any.
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Allowing pyramid head to gain benefit from killer perks, I feel wouldn't really make sense and be very hard to implement (at least hard to ever get the devs to implement this). I say it wouldn't make sense because of the perks having to do with hooks and not cages. Could you imagine devour hope on this guy? He could easily farm stacks incredibly fast and he doesn't even really have to work for it. Now, what about BBQ? How would the devs implement this, sure it can be done. But I don't think the devs would ever do that. With the new undying, devour hope will be incredibly detrimental to survivors against an already powerful killer. Devour hope especially because it is the strongest killer perk if the killer can get it to work. Because of devour hope alone, I can already say that allowing killer perks to work with him would just be such as pain to deal with. Imagine trying to clutch a gen with someone who is tormented and injured, but you don't have time to heal. Pyramid head could down that person, cage them, and then kick a gen with pop. Also, MYC. Instead of tunneling, the madman could just go to the savior and down them instantly. Allowing these perks on p head would be insane and a pain to deal with.
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Iri seal is the one that reveals the auras of tormented survivors after caging. My change is to make it basekit as well as having it proc after an uncage. Since the uncaged survivor and the one who uncages them will lose torment, they won't be read. This also comes with a downside of losing the loud noise notification for uncages to avoid tunneling.
Also since the cages will spawn far away from PH, it's basically a waste of time to go to the cage and even then the survivor might just get released before he arrives making it better to just go and hunt someone else, a thing that'll be easier if Iri Seal is basekit. Remember, this thread is about tunneling.
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There'd be ways to make perks like Chilli work imo. Either make it proc from Pyramids exact location or make it proc from the cage though that could give Ph a crazy advantage. I don't think Pop would be even remotely OP because gen tapping exists and always will, the initial loss is OK but its not crazy high. Its being chased off after the kick that makes it strong but if you're smart you can hide and tap quickly.
Honestly I'd like this change just because it wouldn't weaken him but would punish the players who use him simply because they can't keep up with other killers without exploiting the cages design, that and I like being able to see how perks combine with specific killer powers.
As the other guy said, in regards to MYC. They could just remove the notification entirely, I'm not completely sure why they even kept that after the cage change.
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That's a good idea to encourage spreading hooks for newer or less skilled players. Perhaps if that were basekit though they might make it easier to remove torment.
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Well, if you hide after the p head cages and kicks the gen, chances are he will still find you. The initial loss can be very hard to deal with, but only sometimes.
I see why you want the change, but the problem devour hope causes is still there.
Memorizing the locations of where cages can spawn is actually really helpful, it becomes ingrained in your head where the caged survivor can be if you play him enough. This still doesn't solve the MYC dilemma, I say dilemma because this isn't exactly balanced, just overwhelming so it could stay or be changed somehow.
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Heck no. Even when torment lasted until an uncage you could almost never get any value out of Iri Seal. Remember, Rites of Judgment is a trap and the killer has to be strategic in where they place it. If you're not crouching over it or if the killer manages to lure you to that trap, I think it's safe to say that they deserve that value.
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Remember that trails last 75 seconds by default and it takes no effort or sacrifice to completely block off multiple loops by simply leaving a trail in the way. You can easily block off half a maps pallets or more in that time chasing loop to loop. I realise I misread your first post and thought you meant that all survivor tormented or no would be revealed. I don't think it'd be too strong that way.
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But in this situation you're torment didn't really matter you were dead regardless,if he'd hooked you,you still would have died.Your just a little salty because he tunneled you.
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This is the problem with the game - player entitlement. You're not entitled to use DS. The game does not have nor give DS by default. People have been spoiled and now can't imagine playing without it. Pyramid head working around it is called counterplay....you know like when you disable killer perks right at the start of the game by cleansing a totem? or when you negate their BBQ by hiding in a locker?
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Not What I was saying at all what I'm trying to say is I know I would have been dead its just that
#1 The Executioner gets to skip the 3rd hook which would have given my team enough time to get out of there
#2 The Executioner gets extra blood points so the game rewards this playstyle ( 10k in 2-4 minuets for this example )
Lastly Killers always tunnel its dead by daylight so if I was so salty because I got tunneled ill have a lot more posts but this one in general didn't sit right because of how much it rewards them for playing in this style for PH for being able to do it skip the time to 3rd hook someone and get extra points for doing so
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