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So when is the nerf to Camping and Tunneling being announced?
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My opinion here is rather simple. You can't nerf camping/tunneling it's just a way to play the game as killer if they feel the need to do it. What would you have them do? teleport you to a dead part of the map for a free unhook?
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Pyramid Head's cages were nerfed specifically because they ignored things like BT and DS. Having PH know exactly where they were and be able to just sit around them was camper/tunnel heaven. Now that he can't see the cages and they move if he finds them, they are less broken.
So it's not really a 1:1 comparison, since hooks are affected by BT and DS.
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Everything is about the killer's perspective and experience with regard to the DS change. I'm not seeing any survivor sided balance changes. They definitely want to keep slugging, camping and tunneling as options for killers. And that's okay but the one thing they're not addressing is that they can take steps to make the behavior discouraged. so while yes you can do it and you won't get punished and there's almost no penalty, there should be some in-game mechanism that says you really shouldn't be doing this behavior but you're free to do it. Some small ways are debits in emblem points, blood points, certain perks not providing utility like barbecue if you hook the same person consecutively it resets your stacks. There are a couple of things they could do that still provide killers with agency but comes at a small in-game real-time cost that they have to decide it's worth or not.
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Reverse bloodlust and temporary debuffs... Alternatively make DS base, make the timer 15 seconds but make it pause if killer chases you. Alternatively make BT base and make it work on every unhook.
Thats the only way to fix tunneling. If killer knows that everybody has DS or BT (or both) it might deter them from doing it.
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I just watched the video. They said they would never remove these, they never said they didn't need to be adjusted.
Everyone is in agreement that in some instances they can become strategies. To put it into perspective, I'll use the example they used "Sometimes killers know someone is waiting to get the save or run into their face".... sometimes that isn't the case at all. Sometimes the killer knows fully well where the other survivors are and still decide to camp.
Nobody is asking the choice to be taken away, just toned down. Just like they did to DS.
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Are you implying that every single match progresses the same way?
What if they have slow down perks? What if they didn't immediately camp? Too many variables to imply that camping and tunneling is black and white.
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If you wanted to implement all those changes you would also have to make some changes on the killer side to make these 12 hook games even possible.
It's too complicated to do that however so i would rather not want the devs to waste resources on that
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So what about survivors who simply don't want to bring those perks? Are they not in the same scenario as those who are caged?
I guess they get punished for trying to bring more casual perks, rather than addressing a blatant issue.
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I tunnel to get rid of DS. DS is tasty, 😋 especially when they’re 4 gens left. if they don’t have DS, I drop them.
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I honestly would have rather DS be a basic "base" option with a much lower timer and the adjustments it got. This way the other survivors know the person camped has a decent option at playing the game.
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Whats the alternative? Do nothing? I can live with camping because its almost impossible for counter right now. But tunneling should be fixed. The only way to make killers stop is to make it harder to go for same person.
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If the Nurse was skilled enough she wouldn't camp.
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Fixing tunneling isn't as easy as you would think it is and would require some buffs for the killer side in order to compensate for that.
At the end of the day dealing with camping and tunneling is matter of teamwork and personal skill.
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I didnt say give everybody DS and slow killers down. You would probably have to give killer something as a base and maybe increase amounts of gens. Alternatively add more things to do for surviors... Like idk blood fountains where you have to use them X amount of time per match for the entity to be satisifed and allow you to leave. (You can give blood by getting injured at the fountain or if you die on hook fountain collects certain amount of blood automatically)
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Other stuff? What else is there lef to change that's problematic on survivor side apart from keys?
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Well,kind of.
But this game isn't designed to be 12 hook every game.
It would require an insane amount of work to do so.
I guess they get punished for trying to bring more casual perks, rather than addressing a blatant issue.
That's how DbD always worked though.
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I don't think you will se this.
But, wouldn't surprise me to see bloodlust removed.
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I've always been of the belief that camping and tunneling should be allowed BUT there should be some sort of tradeoff for it, something which makes you think as killer is this the right thing to do in this situation rather than just instinctively switching to camping/tunneling mode whenever you start loosing.
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I know but the thing is.You would have to think of something that wouldn't be too strong or too weak and then give the other side something that properly compensates it for those changes.
It would make DbD an absolute balancing mess.
I definetely wouldn't be opposed to camping or tunneling changes but i just think it's too complicated to make it work.
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I am not understanding what 12 hooks has to do with a survivor being in a cage being in the same position as that survivor who brought more casual perks. Meaning no BT, no DS.
DBD hasn't always worked this way. The devs themselves want there to be a threat, but a balanced threat. Camping to a certain extent isn't balanced, same as Tunneling.
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Their attempt specifically confirmed that the game breaks if the killer can't tunnel and camp, and that tools specifically exist to stop it. Mainly, gen pressure.
If the killer is unable to defend objectives, killer gameplay breaks, because ALL THE KILLER CAN DO IS DEFEND OBJECTIVES. That is killer gameplay! The survivors have broad map presence but weak power, the killer has narrow map presence and strong power.
If you wanna unhook, you gotta earn it. If you have 3 survivors just running around the hook and no gens are getting done, GG EZ get WRECKED. If you got 1 person waiting by the hook and 2 people power doing gens the killer either has to commit to the chase with you to prog the game further or lose, and either way the survivor 'collective' wins there.
If you unhook and immediately hide? Or don't bodyblock? Congrats, your a terrible teammate! The killer isn't a machine, they have a right to play to win and not go out of their way to lose to you, and its DELIBERATELY EASIER to kill injured survivors due to the noise and the trail, so if you don't protect them they WILL die.
Like they said flat out after doing this experiment they are never going to do more to stop camping and tunneling for this reason. So don't twist this around to 'something will clearly come.'
Play at red ranks for even a day and you will see survivors who are very good at forcing the killer not to camp. And some who aren't, because ranks are a joke and its easy to climb. But its where you start seeing survivors who can actually play the game well and do things to punish killer behavior, and it makes it so clear that camping and tunneling isn't a problem for good survivors, because they know how to earn those second chances. You get in a chase with some red rank survivors that lasts for 1 minute and your already down to 2 gens, and you think the killer is going to after that sit at the hook for another 3? No way!
So its on you to force them to not have time to do that: It takes 2 minutes for a survivor to die on first hook. That is enough time for 3 survivors to *end the game.* So threaten that. You have so much spare time there you can do it with TWO survivors: 2 survivors can repair 5.2 gens in 2 minutes, so you can even have one lurking near hook waiting for the killer to get spooked and leave to unhook.
If your not having success with this method, it likely means your going for the rescue too fast (Territorial killers will often double back once or twice unless they really are panicking to test for survivors and look for scratch marks) or too overtly (Its not often the survivors should walk, but if the killer sees scratches near the hook you screwed up big), or your not like... good enough at skillchecks yet and have more fundamental problems than DS getting nerfed.
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Its already a balancing mess adding more wouldnt change a thing
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The problem with DbD at higher levels of play is that it's generally quite fast paced.
Time is a limiting factor for the killer so camping and tunneling is needed to a certain degree in order to deal with that.
Completely removing camping and tunneling would therefore force the killer to hook everyone 3 times in order to win which just isn't possible in the current state of the game.
And DbD always worked in the way that you are forced to use specific perks to counter certain things.
Don't want to be tunneled?
Use DS
Don't want to deal with infinites (back then) ?
Use Bamboozle
etc.
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So are you saying those who don't abuse Camping and Tunneling are just lucky killers with 0 skill who just somehow managed a 4k? Because that is what it sounds like to me.
Let's be clear about one thing. I never said I want Camping and Tunneling removed. I said it should have a downside, or be toned down to NOT constantly feel as though you have to bring the SAME set of perks. Even in the latest stream the devs state "We want a balanced threat"... right now you can bleed someone out without there even being a reason to. You can Camp someone, meanwhile the rest hold M1 for the rest of the match. Not only is that boring, but far from balanced.
Not feeding a Camping killer doesn't take away how busted the mechanic is, let alone the person on the hook not having ANY other choice.
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It definetely would.
It's frustrating but that's DbD for you
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There already is something though.
Time.
The time you spend tunneling and camping one person leaves 3 other survivors to complete the objective without any pressure whatsoever.
If the killer isn't doing the right call when tunneling and camping is the most effective action then survivor should be able to heavily punish him for that.
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Unfortunately I don't ever see camping and tunneling to go away ever. The devs have tried things like the hook timer stopping but that was easily abused. Yes it sucks to be the guy who gets tunneled and camped but from a killers perspective its just doing the objective.
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You hit a very important point.
Regarding infinites... something that is no longer here. Why? Because it was not balanced. They required specific perks to half way deal with them and while breakable doors are not what I would have chosen (a conversation for another day) they got adjusted. That is all survivors ask for when they have complaints against Camping and Tunneling.
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Ok... What would you implement to punish camping and tunneling? You bring up this problem and offer no solution. I seriously doubt you'll come up with a fix that won't be abusable.
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Hmm,i would say that the answer to infinites is way easier and obvious than camping and tunneling though.
Like i said,i wouldn't be opposed of camping and tunneling changes but i just feel like it's extremely difficult to think of those changes and implement them in a way that they are fair for everyone.
I would rather have the devs continue focusing on easier balancing matters like perks,maps,addons or killers
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"*I only seeing as DS is getting a hefty nerf*"
I need you to explain to me what you mean, in what sense would it no longer counter tunneling ESPECIALLY hook face camping as you said
...and yet hook camping is somehow... fine?
this is because DS still works here, if it were a cage, no DS, yes to tunneling.
Hook camping is not going to be like 0 DS infact it will remain the exact same for it's anti tunneling purpose.
This will only stop abuse of DS' invincibility for example (not every match but enough to see a pattern) you will have a survivor get unhooked in your face, tbag you, and then go work on gens, take the BT hit and waste your time, or give a free 60+ seconds of gen progress.
If you do not see it for the clear abuse of DS then I cannot help you with that but it is and it is extremely unfair.
Oh right, I know what you're thinking.... "but there are perks that can help against hook camping!" ... You mean the very same meta perks survivors are forced to bring in order to have a decent chance at not playing sacrificial survivor for the entirety of a match? or maybe it's the same meta perks players keep complaining about that remain as "meta" before quickly asking themselves why that is... Huh funny how that works.
I think this is a very ironic statement, not that I'm pisstaking you but you talk about "also seeing it from the other side" when this is applicable to both sides and it's not like only we complain about ds or anything like that, there have been countless threads recently, arguing that BBQ is OP and needs a nerf and there is pretty much a complaint placed on every killer perk that could have a semblance of annoyance to any survivor ever, while this is extreme hyperbole so is saying without meta perks is self sacrificial because it's just not.
Also they're meta in SWF because of completely different reasons to solo Q, overlapping only with perhaps anti tunneling or camping.
Look, I know these small incidental 'tactics' people complained about were not the best part of DS,
I'm gonna withhold comment on this, please explain what you mean, are you talking about the aforementioned, tbag into gen repair invincibility, it's infact, not only a tactic, But the best in the game. Else then I need clarification, please.
but can we also acknowledge how Camping and Tunneling should be addressed in the same fashion? They are not always used to pull some type of 'strategic' maneuver, they are often abused and/or solely used for Griefing purposes.
I do find it unfortunate and somewhat of a statement that right now, camping and tunneling is a very very very viable strategy, it is sometimes required and a tournament straight up meta.
But in the same way can you see that if someone wants to play to a high level, like top tournament levels, that trying to win is not toxic?
For example, do you think supaalf, hexy or any other tournament player is a complete ######### toxic ######### that you'd bad mouth you do any other pub killer?
Are they griefing?
Imagine any other game, CoD for example, tourney players are seen similarly to dbd tournament players, often respected and looked up to, and pub stompers are seen as very good and great players.
In dbd they're instead ######### who abuse this and this and this, tunneled and are promptly reported to their stepdad McCote directly and then they have a restraining order on the entire McCote lineage.
Tunneling is not oftenly used to be an ######### soley, it is a rare ass occurrence that I choose to spite someone for absolutely no reason, because doing so is a detrimental decision which will lose me a game for a chance at a kill.
I have played around 5k hours with both survivor and killer at rank 1, and no I am not sharing my credentials as "proof" that I am right, but that I have been subject to these type of tactics (DS/Camping/Tunneling).
Again, if you truly care about the "health" and "balance" of the game... then you will hopefully also see the other side.
Ok, but why are health and balance in quotes? this isn't me challenging your points, I just want you to explain why you put them in quotes.
600ish hours if you want to know, but it's not that relevant, other than to show that I've experienced what I say.
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This is the key mori argument all over again,if all you want is something to be changed cuz something else was, then why don't you fight for what you want instead of complaining about this change. Is there any reason other than you don't want DS to be changed cuz you didn't see a problem with it, or are you literally whataboutism-ing everyone on a change you don't care about? You've confused me.
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You already get penalized for camping the hooks, you lose points for it. DS still serves as an anti-tunneling perk. I don't know how you expect the devs to "address" camping and tunneling. They can only discourage players from doing these things, not stop them. As much as getting tunneled/camped is annoying, taking away player agency is the opposite of healthy.
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It is not the key/mori argument again, actually what you are doing, IS. Nobody had even talked about keys and moris until you said something. See Tunneling and DS go hand to hand because they are related to each other. One soft counters the other. Keys and Moris aren't related to each other at all. Plus this isn't the conversation for that.
Bringing up a discussion, is part of showing relevancy and acknowledgement that a problem exists. The discussion isn't about DS and it's changes, it is about Camping and Tunneling remaining the same in their boderline abusive forms. DS comes into the picture, because they have literally nit-picked random rare situations in which DS is no longer becomes an anti-tunnel perk. Yet, the choice to Tunnel a survivor out is still there with no downside... all this when the devs claim they want the choice to be a balanced threat. It currently isn't.
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You literally said they nerfed DS but whatabout this, how is that not whataboutism.
Also a comparison does not mean I'm bring keys into this argument I'm saying what you're doing is this that killers were doing in the mori nerf and just in general.
Also bruh, just in general.
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There isn't a single actually decent gen slowdown perk right now that just gives you free pressure if you stand by a hook. Even Corrupt doesnt have an effect when camping.
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Then you obviously didn't understand the point of the thread.
DS counters Tunneling (or it's suppose to) It doesn't. Even the old dare I say busted DS doesn't do that. It merely delays the tunnel. So I explain my points about how they are adding even more conditions to a perk that didn't do it's job in the first place and you call it whataboutism. Fine, I'll give you that.
It still doesn't negate the relevancy it has because abusive camping resulted in more players feeling inclined to bring those perks.
"Also bruh, just in general."
Yeah. Ok.
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Hard disagree. You don't take into account many things that happen during a match, but that's ok. We'll agree to disagree.
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I'm aware of how dynamic matches can be. But if you have an equally skilled/experienced team against a killer who decides to camp it should be a no brainer to rush gens and punish. Problem is braindead morons with WGLF that are so desperate for BP that they'll sit there for 2 entire minutes, try for a last second save and also die. I see it too often even in red ranks.
But thats not the killers fault. Its entirely the survivors. The killer is throwing the match away out of spite/lack of skill. Camping only works if the survivors are idiots.
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I don't understand what the massive deal is with the concept of "If you progress the game, you're not being tunneled" is.
Also, I don't think I can explain within a reasonable word count how much a DS actually does, how 1 second of difference splits a 0k form a 3k.
What do you want the effect to be, if you hit DS, you win DBD?
It still does it's job atleast extending the time needed to kill a tunneled survivor by a significant proportion, why do you feel entitled to 60 seconds of uncountable and unmitigated invincibility?
I think you should withhold with major accusations and demands until everyone's tested it. but this is just from my observable info.
This is why I've commented on what you said until I posted this comment. Not the actual perk changes. but just to be safe, those all are to be taken with a grain of salt, fortunately there's enough salt on this forum to supply everyone in Minnesota with all the salt they need.
"Yeah. Ok."
Aight. Cool.
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The nerf comes in the form of survivors gaining situational awareness and developing standard practices to deal with those tactics. Nearly every other multiplayer game I've played has accepted strategies shared among randoms. In DbD everyone just kind of does whatever.
It genuinely takes less than 30 seconds to recover a camping situation with BT and a second survivor. And if you can't save, the killer should lose about 2 gens per hook state. It's 100% on the survivors to understand the situation and make good decisions.
As for tunneling, I can't remember the last time that I got tunneled in a swf where it didn't cost the killer 5 gens. Randos are randos as far as gens go. Is what it is. It's a 1v4. Secure the victory for your team with your chase mechanics.
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DS shouldn't even be nerfed in the first place.
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If she was skilled enough, she could STILL 4k AND CAMP.
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How the **** is camping and tunneling 'abusive'
What a joke statement
I don't camp and i ll slug the survivor that was just dive bombed if they run in front of me when I get back to the hook. Camping and tunneling are strategic, not abusive.
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You need to face Camper + Noed as Solo.
Even me bring in Kindred, its 2-3k every time.
It does work, so it can be abusive
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looks like you are ######### killer then. there's nothing strategic if you focus on single one which you just hooked ignoring all others. DS was giving like 30sec - 60sec more time, killer is always going for such a prey anyway. it just let you to get some points to 'stay' within same rank/pip amount.
I see a lot of killer with private steam profile otherwise it will be all -rep. it must hurt players to stop camping otherwise it's just pretty normal atm in dbd to camp/slug/tunnel
maybe we should all go play killers and quit trying to survive ;)
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Never. If it would benefit survivors, it is never.
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Devs will never nerf camping and tunnelling because on top of all the OP perks that killers run, (taking all the work out of killer completely), the killer mains are just too fragile and devs are too scared to do it.
It's fine though because the community has decreased immensely already and dbd is needing to be advertised (with a false '20 million' users), funny that you end up playing with or against the same people extremely frequently, 20 million users and the game has to match you with the same people repeatedly LOL
Eventually, these crybaby killer mains will have to wait over an hour for a game and just have an extremely easy one when they get in it because no one will bother. People will just kill themselves on first hook or troll.
You only need to take a look at the crazy increase in queue times just before cross-platform came out. Lots of people have quit already and more will continue to do so. I think the only actual reason people play survivor is because they can:
1) Play with friends
2) Get quicker games at certain times of day
I play Killer and Survivor (a little more survivor) and I can say killer is a hell of a lot easier than survivor is. If I need quick bloodpoints I always play killer. The problem is that killer mains feel entitled to 4k every single game without fail and if one or two people escape because they played better then the killer feels as though the game is unfair, even though it's been unfair to the survivors that died.
DS is a counter to tunnelling, so you can't really get DS'ed unless you tunnel. The problem is in the way the killer plays, not the perks the survivors use, but people just don't understand this!
I think the only nerf that ds needs is that it shouldn't be able to be activated at endgame. I understand end game camping and tunnelling (depending on killer). On the flip side, I also think it needs a buff in regards to stun time... 5 seconds is nowhere near enough 98% of the time, unless you have a whole team there ready to take aggro (which takes them off of gens anyway), or a really, really strong loop that you could make use of to buy some time. 999/1000 times if you ds a tunnelling killer, they continue to tunnel you afterwards anyway!
From someone that plays killer and survivor, this game is biased towards killer IMMENSELY. It's actually so easy that I play survivor more nowadays so I actually feel the need to put effort in. That's without tunnelling or camping! If I ever go back to a hook, it's for the person who has unhooked, never for the person who's just got off, I literally run right through them. This is not because I'm scared of DS or Borrowed, it's because I'm not a shameless sack of s**t and I feel confident enough in my ability as killer to actually allow survivors to enjoy the game too and earn some bp or pips.
Nothing is sadder yet extremely amusing than seeing a killer who thinks they're good after a whole game of tunnelling and camping. The fact they think they have any skill whatsoever is hilarious.
Post edited by kurtisohhbee on0 -
Tunneling isn't abusable and camping hindered the killer. If the killer want you dead you better get gud at looping. Ds is now a anti tunneling perk but you would rather have it be 60 sec invincibility to do things.
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Dealing with camping requires cooperation, and survivors are selfish. Gen rushing in response to camping requires the survivor on the hook to not suicide, which is not going to happen if everyone is either doing nothing or not bothering to rescue. Dealing with tunnelling is a "git gud" moment, as it backfires a lot when tunnelling a good chaser. Both of these requires the other survivors to not waste time. Until the game can show examples of dealing with these in action regularly, camping and tunnelling will be rewarding enough to justify for some killers. Especially when doing some challenges (like hook the obsession).
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