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Unique & Interesting Way to Get Around "Tunneling", Your Thoughts?
Hi Everyone! *** EXPLANATION UP TOP *** IDEA/SUGGESTION BELOW ***
--- EXPLANATION --- You Can Find My Suggestion Below Thank You For Reading!!!
I'm actually a Rank 1 Killer main so this suggestion or rather unique idea is coming from a Killer's perspective.
I am not as good of a Survivor as I am Killer, I think my highest Survivor Rank is 5.
One of the things that I noticed playing around that Rank as Survivor is that MANY Red Rank Killers do actually use Camping/Tunneling as a Method to get a 4K game.
This was at first a bit surprising to me, as I myself have never personally used this Method as a Killer because not only do I consider it rude, but I also believe it takes the fun out of the game for both sides. I also have a belief that if you cannot secure a 4K game without camping/tunneling then you did not actually deserve it or earn it anyways, so I rather focus on improving my own gameplay to "win" and get better as a Killer than use such "strategies" to accomplish the results I would like to achieve.
I do agree that there are SOME games where the Survivors are SO good and completely wreck me, especially a well coordinated SWF could easily accomplish this as I am not the best Killer, that I do occasionally wish that I would allow myself to Camp/Tunnel because it is literally the only possible Method to secure even one kill. Or sometimes there's the one person who is playing Toxic and knows where your Ruin is and keeps going for it in front of your face repeatedly, or flashlight saving their teammates, bodyblocking hook, etc, in those cases I will Kill that person first but they are asking for it. So there are exceptions, but it is few and far between.
NOW - What I noticed is that other Killers that are Red Rank who I have seemed to be facing lately, EVEN when they are already Snowballing their Victory (as Nurse, Spirit, etc) , will Camp/Tunnel as hard as they possibly can, despite only 2-3 of us alive both injured with 3-4 gens left for example. They CLEARLY already have the 4K in the bag, and they still don't want to allow us to actually enjoy the game at all and stay near Hook then immediately Tunnel the Person who just got unhooked.
Yesterday we were playing SWF and this happened over and over to us and even with all of us running BT and DS we still couldn't stop from being 4K'd (granted we are not the best Survivors but still) with like 3 gens left.
--- SO HERE IS MY IDEA / SUGGESTION --- Please Let Me Know What You Guys Think!!!
WHAT IF - When a Survivor is on their 3rd, Final Hook .. the OTHER Survivors in the Match get a Pop Up (for example, similar to a match invite) where they can CHOOSE to Press F1 (for example) to GIVE UP one of their OWN Hook States and give that Survivor another chance.
Hypothetically the way this would work, is when a Survivor gets hooked on their 3rd & Final Hook State - for 10-15 Seconds there is an Option available for the OTHER Survivors to give them one of their Hook States (or lives) and by doing so they would LOSE One Hook State from their own and the Survivor that is Hooked will end up getting placed back into the "2nd Hook State" again where they are hanging and having to hit skill checks to stay alive. If NO ONE gives a Hook State then the Survivor just dies on Final Hook like before after the 10-15 seconds. Survivors are only able to Offer a Hook State if they have enough remaining (2 or 3 Hook States left).
Because it is an OPTION, you don't HAVE to give if you don't want to for example if someone is trolling or suiciding on Hook then you can let them die instead of
This would Benefit BOTH Survivors AND Killers because:
For SURVIVORS it would allow the game to be more enjoyable, specifically when playing with friends that are at different skill levels. I cannot tell you how many times I have played SWF with friends that are just not as skilled at the game yet and end up being DEAD on 3rd Hook so quickly while me or possibly even everyone else still has 3 Hook States remaining. This would at least allow players to continue playing and enjoying the game as much as they can, Instead of having to sit there and Spectate the Match waiting for the rest of your team to slowly die or escape.
For KILLERS it would allow a possibility to Score Higher, earn more Bloodpoints, and gain a +2 Pip easier. Why? Because I cannot tell you how many times as a Killer I have accidentally killed all 3 Survivors without even Hooking the 4th Survivor even once unintentionally just because that one last remaining Survivor played so much better or more stealthily. In situations like this I actually get upset, because for example if I am trying to +2 Pip, even if I Hook the 4th Survivor at the end of the game and secure the 4K, in most cases because I only Hooked him ONCE and not THREE times I actually get CLOSE to +2 Pip but still only +1 while trying to Rank.
So without keeping track of EXACTLY how many times you Hook each Survivor, it can get pretty difficult for a Killer to make sure that they do Hook Each Survivor exactly 3 Times to secure Maximum Bloodpoints/Pip potential. With this new system in place, it would allow Killers to at least have a chance to complete each Sacrifice fully because if it counted as a HOOK when the last remaining Survivor offered up one of his Hook States to keep their teammate alive then it would be as if the Killer actually successfully got another Hook on the Survivor that gave up the state.
The Best Part? It is Fairly Balanced to Benefit Both Sides.
Survivors get a chance to keep their teammates in the game longer, which is not only more enjoyable but also helps keep pressure on Gens easier with the additional members.
Killers get a free Hook State from another Survivor that they didn't even have to down.
It keeps the game going longer, so more fun for everyone, and it makes games slightly more fair against Tunneling/Camping and Snowballing.
And since it is OPTIONAL, no one is forced to do it unless they actually want to. It may not be "optional" for Killers, but that can even be open for discussion - although I think the whole point of this would be to prevent Killers from being able to take a person out of the game super early by ignoring all the other Survivors - and in my personal opinion that is perfectly fine and healthier for the game!
Comments
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That could easily be abused to the advantage of survivors. If they could just give each other hook states they would likely end up making it so that you 12 hook everyone or hook them all equally. It also still doesn't solve tunneling because the killer would just hook that survivor again and again, sure they might still end up escaping if they are lucky, but it would still be very boring.
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I think the you have to twelve hook them or hook them equally is what he was going for.
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Forcing Killers to 12-hook without massively slowing down the game is not going to work out.
This is just a huge buff to Survivor.
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In all fairness anything that reduces or removes camping is going to be a large buff ti survivors
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True, but there's not really any compensation on the Killer side.
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Does there need to be compensation for the other side for every nerf/buff. If so whats the current talley is it the killers turn ot survivors for one?
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For such a drastic change, yes.
This would be like increasing gen times to 130 seconds, but not adjusting gen regression perks.
It's massively lengthening the game for one side while not lengthening it for the other
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If you increased gen times why would you then decrease gen regression perks to offset the change? If they wanted to increase the total amount of time it takes to do gens whybcant they just do it?
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Well, it'll be useless for solo. No one would give a hook state to a random.
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Because gen regression perks would become MASSIVELY stronger in that scenario.
Every PGTW kick would be an extra 30-40 seconds. Ruin would be devastating. Corrupt would be absurd.
It isn't offsetting a change, it's rebalancing perks based on a new environment.
you can't just buff things without looking at how perks interact with said changes.
In OP's proposition, he massively extends the game for Killers, but doesn't extend it at all for Survivors (and there are already a ton of complaints that gens are too fast)
This change would make it so that Killers never win unless they play bad players.
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You make it seem like increasing or decreasing anything requires a set off. If they aid let's up gens to 130 seconds and found this is too much they could lower it to 100 or 110 or 90, I'm having trouble seeming why every change needs a corresponding nerf or buff. But if so what was the corresponding killer nerf for the ds nerf that hit a little while ago?
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I did not say that every change needs a corresponding nerf/buff.
DS was overpowered and as such, nerfing it was bringing it in line, ergo, no Killer nerf needed.
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That would make it impossible to win against decent teams without resorting to mass slugging. It guarantees 8-hook 0k scenarios. And as nice and fun as that sounds, there's no way good survivors would ever not sacrifice their hook states. That's already what we do. That's like, survivor 101. Someone on death hook? They vanish and the least hooked person takes the heat.
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Got it ds overpowered OK to nerf, camping not overpowered do needs to nerf survivors to be fair. Do you have a list of overpowered things that can get a free nerf or is it one of those if the devs don't do a corresponding nerf it was overpowered.
Also do the corresponding nerfs have a particular degree of nerfing that follows, for example if gen required 10 percent more time do killer regression perks have to be 10 percent less effective or is it just having a nerf good enough like 130 second gens and .025 of a percent regression penalty?
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Just change hooks into something similiar to Pyramid head cages ,when you hook survivor hook will disappear and respawn in another location that is unknow for the killer when the killer i 24 m from the hook becuse he somehow managed to find that hook the hook will disappear and then reapper in the different location that will prevent tunneling as well as camping
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No on so many levels I cannot begin to express this to the degree it requires. Moreover, I don't care about your personal views on Camping and/or Tunneling. They are entirely irrelevant to making suggestions for changes to basic mechanics. Likewise, I don't care what personal limitations you put on yourself; those are your business and yours alone. You wasted most of your post regurgitating a tired, pointless screed on Camping and Tunneling. Your comments also do not ring true; I'm not going to get into this in depth, but is suffices to say that I don't believe many of the things you say. As those things are irrelevant to your suggestion, I'll let it pass with no further comment.
Camping and Tunneling do not happen near as often (at any level) as Players seem to think, and there are already a host of things that can be done to mitigate or counter the tactics. Not only is your suggestion open to dangerous abuse, it is totally unneeded in the first place.
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There's a lot to unpack here but I'm mostly confused on why you seem to think going for Ruin, flashlight saves, and bodyblocking is toxic behavior.
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I'm going to comment on this, but only briefly. You are trying to compare apples and oranges here, and slip it into your debate with Pulsar on the sly. You and I had this conversation. Decisive Strike is a PERK. Camping is a tactic, i.e. an aspect of Player agency, a matter of their personal play style. A Perk is a coded mechanic. A tactic is a manifestation of free will and personality. Please do not construe these things, nor pretend they are remotely the same. I'm sure you can make your argument and support it without mixing and matching two very different things.
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The game is a solo vs a team, alone you can't do anything about tunneling you need your team to step in, perhaps the killer ignores them but they can still body block and harass the killer to make i extremely unpleasant to tunnel. Also your idea is very short sighted, it would make playing killer legit impossible; sorry but it just is not possible to 12 hook a match with survivors your skill lvl, you will lose every time.
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I disagree to some extent, I think it would still be less boring than forcing a Survivor to sit there and Spectate and wait for their friends (in SWF situations). But you are correct, the chances are the Killer would still probably just keep tunneling that Survivor IF they wanted to or felt like it - the difference being that by doing so the other Survivors could at least extend the time the Killer gets punished for this type of gameplay and finish Gens therefore giving a slightly higher probability of Escaping.
That's kind of my whole point though, it wouldn't necessarily be a huge balance change either way because at best it will only increase the odds of the Survivors getting to Escape slightly, I don't want it to actually make a huge impact on Balance which is exactly why I thought of this, it wouldn't impact Balance significantly but at least it would allow players to continue playing for "Closer" to the "end of the match" rather than get Tunneled and forced out of the match super early on while the other 3 still have Full Hook States.
Also, again it would be INTENTIONAL that the Killer has to 12 Hook each game because that is actually BETTER for the Killer. Having a 12 Hook Game is worth significantly more Bloodpoints generally AS WELL as one of the best ways to get a +2 Pip if you are trying to Rank Up. As a Killer I WANT to get 12 Hook games EVERY match, but sometimes it is impossible to do so because even if I get the 4K it won't count as 12 Hooks cause one of the Survivors played super safe the whole game or was just significantly better than the others and I couldn't down them.
It would give Killers a chance to Score Hook points on the "Pro Survivors" that they cannot down by their own skill, for one example. Not saying that's fair to the Survivor either, but at least the Survivor is in this case willing giving up a Hook State for their friend.
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Yes this is completely Correct, I am saying that this would make it easier for Killers to get a 12 Hook game and that is in my opinion a good thing for Killers in general. Not only does it discourage "toxic" gameplay in general (such as Tunneling first Survivor to death immediately), but it also encourages healthy gameplay of trying to focus on securing your 12 Hooks every single match and maximizing your bloodpoint and pip game as a Killer each time.
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Well could you please explain why it would be a "Huge" buff?
I personally do not see it that way at all.
As Killer you are still getting a completely free Hook State from a different Survivor, one that you didn't even have to go through the trouble of finding or downing. That, and they still have to unhook the Survivor that you were "tunneling" hypothetically (if that is the gameplay you prefer to play though I don't enjoy it myself) to save them, and when they do you can still continue to Tunnel the weak Survivor and force them to give up ANOTHER Hook State if they want to keep their friend in the match.
Eventually you will either get ALL available Hook States off of that one Survivor, or they will be forced to let that Survivor Die and be Sacrificed anyways.
That being said, this above scenario would ONLY happen if you are playing as an (in my opinion) "Toxic Tunneling Killer" because if you were to play the way that I play Killer then this change wouldn't even effect you at all because I do my best to spread out my Hooks as evenly as possibly every single match in order to secure 12 Hooks every match on my own, but it is hard cause I have to constantly be aware of which Survivor I am going for. This would actually make it less challenging for me as a Killer to complete 12 Hooks.
Either way, I just don't see how it would be a "Huge" buff to Survivors. I think it would actually be a Minor Buff to BOTH sides, which is what I love about it. Almost more like a Quality of Life change to DBD in general.
- Hypothetical, the other Survivors all use their Hook States to give up to the 1 poor guy that is stuck on the Hook to try and abuse the system and sit on gens the whole time -- well ANY Killer should instead of "Camp" the guy on Hook go LOOK for the other Survivors and Pressure Gens. What will happen then? Well, The Killer won't be around to Camp or Tunnel when the Survivor gets Unhooked, but chances are the Killer will have found someone else working on a Gen instead and is in Chase with them trying to get a Down. In Theory it ACTUALLY forces a Killer to play the "correct/more fun" way, without actually taking away too much from their ability to get a 12 Hook match since they get a Free one each time it happens from one of the other Survivors.
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This is completely entirely false, Please Read the post again to see how it benefits the Killer in multiple ways.
Or Read my Replies that I just wrote to other's before you explaining more detailed scenarios.
The Killer actually gains a great deal from this, and all it does is encourage them to play in a fair way that not only will reward them more at the end of the match but is more fun than using "Camping/Tunneling" methods. If the Killer is a Killer who doesn't Tunnel, this will "hardly" effect them because most Survivors will be on their final Hook States anyways and not able to give one up to save the first one dying or much less willing to as it would put themselves in mortal danger.
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This is possibly true in MOST cases, and that is why this is more a QoL change directed at SWF and for Killers in general.
Perhaps no one would give up a Hook State in Solo, but perhaps they would, that I admit is kind of up in the air.. I can see someone actually doing it if they think that it might make that SMALL % chance difference where they can all Escape instead of all get Sacrificed. Those are pretty Rare situations where this might change the tides THAT much in a match, but it is certainly possible, and you never know sometimes people are just feeling kind or generous haha
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Yeah, that's again kind of speaking to my point.
This will encourage that type of gameplay, even toward some of the "not best" Survivors out there.. and discourage the Killer from sitting and Camping/Tunneling slightly, also as I mentioned before there are cases where you CANNOT prevent the Killer from killing one specific Survivor.
It just happened to me in a match yesterday, I was actually playing Solo Qeue Survivor, and the Killer for some reason decided to Tunnel me to death immediately from the start. There were 2 other Survivors that actually stayed after they unhooked me and tried to Body Block the Killer for me - the Killer WOULDN'T Even Swing at them, just walked around them and went straight for me.
In this scenario, if my system was in place, instead of having to try and "Bodyblock" for me, unsuccessfully at that, they could just let the Killer hook me and give up their own Hook States while working on Gens either forcing the Killer off of me or possibly making it easier for them to Escape. And lets be real, in this scenario, that literally just happened yesterday, the Killer was just being rude af.. there is absolutely no reason to tunnel someone that hard and ignore others while they are body blocking you, I swear I didn't even have an item it's not like I was flashlighting or had a key, I spawned near him by coincidence and it was a Bubba that chainsawed me down and then never let me go.
I only scored 1K bloodpoints that game, and it was a horrible experience, and shouldn't have been fun for anyone to be honest... and there was actually nothing that I could do with how hard he camped/tunneled me. If a Killer is doing that, they deserve to get some kind of drawback in-game for the type of behavior.
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Flashlight Saves and Bodyblocking are equally Toxic to me as Camping and Tunneling - neither is necessary to WIN the game, it is mostly done to annoy the other players or be rude from my experience. Especially the type of Survivors that do it regularly, also usually happen to be the Survivors that talk trash at the end of the game in the lobby lol.
That being said, going for Ruin is of course not Toxic behavior. But when the same Survivor gets downed in front of Ruin 3 times in a row, even when you are NOT trying to tunnel them but after every unhook they don't even heal they just run right back to Ruin and try to do it in front of you again, they are Literally Asking to be killed. I don't consider it Toxic behavior, but I cannot allow them to destroy the Ruin right in front of my face and will Kill them if they insist.
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No, it's massive buff to Survivor.
If you are playing against a half-decent team, you will need to tunnel someone out of the game because a 4v1 is massively against you as Killer. This change would allow the Survivors to keep the game a 4v1 for an extremely long time, making it virtually impossible for Killers other than Nurse or Spirit to win.
It'd turn every single game into a slug fest.
Let's take a hypothetical scenario that can very easily happen. Say you spend 20 seconds looking for a Survivor at the beginning of the game, and then you have a 30 second chase (which is relatively fast) and it then takes you another 10 seconds to pick up and hook said Survivor, then another 15 to get to a gen.
That's three gens done and you have one hook and you had an ideal scenario with a quick chase. This scenario happens a lot at higher ranks against Survivors who have an inkling of knowledge.
You now have two gens left and 4 Survivors alive. Tell me how you win the game without tunneling someone out so that the game is more manageable.
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Killers get BP and pips.
That means nothing if they lose literally every match because you allowed the Survivors to keep 4 people in the game for an extremely long amount of time.
Gens will fly and there will be virtually no way to stop it, except for mass slugging.
I'm sorry, but this is a very bad idea, especially if you are trying to make the game healthier.
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I mean, at Red Ranks I go out of my way to 12 Hook every match that I can, often screwing myself over trying to do so even. But it is certainly not impossible, I would say I have over 50% success rate and I have fun doing it.
Again, I actually cannot seem to understand why people would consider this such a huge buff to Survivors, IF YOU ARE Trending to get a 4K match as a Killer, this actually shouldn't effect your success rate whatsoever. UNLESS You use Tunneling/Camping as your only Method of achieving that 4K .. but to be quite frank, if that is the type of Killer you are and you cannot complete getting your 12 Hooks without using those Tactics or Methods then you probably should be at a different Rank as Killer than you are now realistically speaking.
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It is painfully clear that you cannot understand why people (nearly EVERYONE responding to you) thinks your suggestion is a huge buff to Survivors. Your inability to understand it (or accept it) doesn't make it any less true. Let me emphasize a fact for you; everyone who has responded to you with over 2K+ hours in the game (all of whom have reached Red Rank in both Killer and Survivor) have been of basically the same opinion. Isn't it possible that some (perhaps even all) of them know what they are talking about?
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Hmm
Idk, maybe I'm just a better Killer than I thought I was lol.
I don't know what game you are playing as Killer, but just because I do face some Survivors or SWF Teams occasionally that completely wreck me and get a 3-4man Escape, it really does NOT happen that often, even at Red Ranks, and I always go for the 12 Hook if I can. I legit get upset at myself if toward the end of a match I realize that I messed up and won't be able to complete a 12 Hook.
This is without Tunneling, I use Make Your Choice to be frank and ALWAYS try to go for the Unhooker if I can. That's my playstyle. That means I'm away from Hook, and leaving the person who got unhooked alone and going for the person who saved them.
Honestly, I REALLY don't think that I'm that good of a Killer, there's no way that other's can't also play this way and still get wins. That would be absurd, in your own scenario you make it seem like EVERY match a Killer would HAVE to Tunnel or Camp to get a Survivor out of the game as quickly as possible or they would NEVER win...
No offense, but Your Scenario is far less Realistic than mine lol, I know for a fact that you don't HAVE to Tunnel every single match to get wins, and by the way, it is totally okay to NOT win and get a 4K every single match either. Long as you +0 Pip it's actually technically not even a Loss and you still get BP for it.
Obviously getting +0 Pip without getting more than 1K every single match wouldn't be fun, but you would improve as a Killer and over time you would start getting more Kills without having to use nasty tactics or methods to do so.
Mind you, I actually came up with this NOT because a Killer was using this tactic to win against us as super pro Survivors. My SWF Team is fairly new and we are not very good Survivors ranging from Rank 4 - Rank 13 .. but when we face a Rank 1 Nurse that Tunnels from the start and doesn't stop tunneling all game long even when there are still 4 Gens up... how are we supposed to even try to have fun? lol
The interesting thing about all of this for me is that I BARELY Play Survivor, I almost only play Killer because I can't stand Solo Qeue and up until recently never had anyone to play DBD with..
But now that I'm finally trying to play SWF I'm starting to learn why people hate Tunneling/Camping so much, and being a Killer Main KNOWING that it is completely not a necessary tactic to actually win (I suppose if you are good enough), it did began to upset me and try to get thinking about creative "fair" ways to try and discourage people from doing it and possibly help SWF have a little more fun while at it.
I also think that you are over thinking how much time it actually will add to the game, remember, you are still getting a free hook state from another (possibly more experienced) survivor who you didn't even have to chase or down... that's actually HUGE
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Have you considered that nearly everyone in this thread has said that this is a bad idea?
My scenario happens extremely often. Go look at any tournament or streamer. When they get a team that kind of knows what they are doing, they will have to tunnel.
Tunneling is a good strategy and it will not be removed.
Camping is also a decent strategy, but is easily counterable and as such, will not be removed.
If you want to push this buff to Survivors through, you HAVE to slow the game down massively. Gens will need to take at least 110 seconds, if not more. Perks will need to be completely rebalanced. Items will also need the same.
It's unrealistic and it doesn't really work.
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Not a single person has actually given any legitimate explanation/evidence/examples that make sense and can't be countered rather easily, that's all. I just honestly believe people are not thinking it through completely, either that or they just don't WANT this to be something that is changed, despite all of the evidence that I on the other hand have provided toward why it would be good for the game.
I am here because I am completely 100% open to discussion.
Most people that are responding "against" my idea, are not providing any real reason or evidence or specific examples as to why.
That is not a discussion, that is just someone stating "No" without giving any actual reason behind it sort of like when parents say "Because I said so." lol
Look, I made this post because I wanted to spend some time offering up a suggestion that I PERSONALLY thought would make the game better for all of us. I explained myself, I gave scenarios, and provided evidence to back up my thoughts. Then, I asked for your opinions.
By the way, Thank You for taking the time to share your opinions! ^^ I appreciate it, and that's fine, like I said, I am willing to have a discussion about it.
But until someone can ACTUALLY say something that straight up 100% Proves me wrong and I read it and think to myself "Oh wow, omg, I am such an idiot this was a terrible idea why did I even bother writing it!?" Well until that happens, I'm just here trying to have an open discussion about it with everyone that's willing to participate and I'll respond with my thoughts to your thoughts ^^
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I gave you a likely scenario at high levels of play.
This would destroy the game at Red Ranks.
Nobody can prove you wrong because the evidence we need would need to be gathered in a test. Unfortunately for you, that test isn't going to happen, so you'll have to take common sense as an argument.
As someone with nearly 1K hours in both sides, this is an awful idea. Respectfully, go back to the drawing board.
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Honestly, I am actually totally okay with everything you just said lol.
I agree I DO NOT want Tunneling or Camping to be "Removed" as it is quite literally impossible to do so and I understand that quite well.
If anything I just want it to be slightly discouraged so it may occur less when it is actually completely unnecessary in many situations where it happens, sure not ALL situations, as you pointed out there will be some like in Tournaments etc where it might even be necessary, but just like that it still occurs when it is clearly not necessary either.
But even more so - I JUST WANT there to be a way to continue playing if you are the 1st person that gets Tunneled out of the match in a SWF. It really sucks and is a shame that there is a game mechanic that legitimately forces someone to sit and wait for their friends to finish a match that may go on for a very long time because the Killer decides to just force 1 player out of the match within the first few minutes.
That's a ######### thing and some QoL would be pretty cool there.
EDIT: When I thought of this, I wasn't even the one that was being Killed first during the SWF matches, (that happened in solo qeue though), but I just felt SO Bad for my friends that kept falling out of the match so early every time because they aren't as skilled on Survivor as us, then they have to wait and it makes them not want to keep playing DBD... it's just lame and I figured at least this would give them a chance to keep playing more.. something should be done at least even if it isn't the idea that I came up with.
Oh yeah, and I ALSO Agree with you that Gen Speeds should take longer IN GENERAL. This has nothing to do with my post or suggestion, but yeah I know for a fact that Gens pop WAY too fast sometime especially against a pro SWF team.
Bro, I am on your side, that's why I am so shocked that you cannot see the bigger picture.
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But that behaviour exist for a reason - actually being able to win. In this concept of yours, it would be 9 minutes on average before someone dies in every single trial. I don't think I've even had a 9-minute trial in weeks.
And it's not tunneling. It's just the fact that it's unrealistic to have killers get 8 hooks before someone dies. That just doesnt happen. I cannot stress that enough, if you're at 8 hooks and no-one is dead, you have lost the trial.
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It's not even about tunnelling one person, you also just ignore the good players or the players that haven't been hooked because you need people out. Sometimes it's right to tunnel someone, true, but I don't see it come up that often.
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If you want to discourage tunneling, add incentives to not tunnel.
Penalties do nothing. We've seen this with camping.
The biggest reduction in camping happened when BBQ came out. BBQ is a perfect example of how to discourage a tactic without penalizing the player. It gives a nice BP bonus and some aura reading, which encourages the Killer to leave the hook, or stay depending on what they see.
If you could do something like that with tunneling, I'd be on board.
As it stands, tunneling is the best way to win games and, in higher levels of play (see the MMR test) it's often the only way to have a chance to win.
Likewise, "gen rushing" is also the best way to win and, in higher levels of play (again, see the MMR test) the only way to have a chance to win.
You can't nerf these strategies because they are strategies. You can only incentivize players to play in a different way. Else you end up like the camping penalties we have that have stop approximately zero people from camping.
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The problem is you are conflating several things:
- You see this as a Buff to both roles because your idea feeds the Killer free hooks and thus more Blood Points and Pips. However, many Killers do not rate their victories that way. Many of us have played so long and accumulated so much stuff that Blood Points mean nothing to us. Moreover, once you reach a certain Skill, have climbed that mountain, Rank is likewise meaningless. What you are suggesting is "bribing" or "paying off" the Killer for what amounts to escapes for 3+ Survivors. Most Killers, particularly those who have been playing a good long time, want the kills, not your payoff.
- Pulsar did explain why your idea fails. I'll try to restate it in a way you understand more clearly. Your method allows Survivors to "swap hooks" with zero risk. Currently a good team swaps hooks all the time, but they have to earn it. Someone has to leave a Generator (which gives the Killer some pressure) get to the Hook, make the save, and take either a protection hit and/or their on time on the hook to grant a respite for the one they just saved. Using your method they never have to leave the Generator, robbing the Killer of the pressure provided by people having to make rescues and further accelerating the Gen-Rush. More to the point, they can cycle these swapped hooks in a way that always maximizes the survivability of the entire group and thus make it harder on the Killer to ever make tactical eliminations. Your idea is a huge give away to Survivors as it puts all the real choices in their hands.
- It can be abused massively in combination to gear as well. Consider Keys. Granted the Gen-Rush acceleration your method provides (no one is ever off Generators) they can be down to one Generator in record time. The extra time and people with the right gear can always locate the hatch, the Key bearer can be in place, and a massive exodus will be almost impossible to stop. I could name about six more off the top of my head which abuse the hell out of Gear.
I'm going to stop there because I don't really trust you, nor do I think you are actually open minded about this at all. I'm not going to give this a proper treatment only to have you pretend not to understand it when Pulsar and MadLordJack already explained the problems and you just ignored them (or pretended not to understand them). Your method triples down on the Generator Rush issue that is already aggravated by SWF. You all but guarantee that no Survivor has to go for the save until late game and everyone will just give away extra hook states while they bang away on Generators like madmen.
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I just had a game against two rank 1 & two rank 2 survivors with Wraith. It started very well, but i lost momentum after Ruin was gone. They kinda rushed the last 3 gens while they were effectively hook trading (in the end i hooked everyone 2 times). The ones on death hook hid very well and got protected by their mates. In the endgame i messed up a bit because i wanted too much, i wanted to reward myself for a good game (i dominated the chases, mindgamed, had pressure throughout the game).
MY ONLY MISTAKE was that i always ignored the one that just got hooked. Because it was Midwich, and i was Wraith. Because i thought this map was in my favour, only to realize for the 2nd time (had a lose on midwich yesterday) that this map is full of stupid pallets.
I thought it was better to play FAIR. Maaan, was i wrong. It feels really bad afterwards. Good survivors will take advantage of you, if you play like this. It's impossible to win like this against a good team, because as soon as i realized i need the kill NOW or i will even lose, they started to make this hook trade/ taking aggro- shenanigans. The thing is, it's not their fault, they did great, i just did a huge mistake by going for hooks/ chases instead of kills.
bottom line: "tunneling" is part of the game, there is nothing wrong with it, watch every good tournament killer and you will see you need to go after someone who just got unhooked sometimes. Of course there is a difference between mindlessly tunneling the first survivor you see in a match and going for a kill when you need it.
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I play Survivor a bit, and I see tunneling as one of two things.
Situation A (doesn't happen often):
The Killer sees me as so much of a threat that they need to get me out of the game ASAP to have a chance. They often throw the match to catch me, and considering how easy it is to stay in Red Ranks, I don't lose anything but the Killer de-pips and hopefully learns something.
Situation B (happens more often than I'd like to admit):
The Killer sees me as the weakest link of the team and figures I'll require the least effort to remove from the game. I'm easy pressure.
Neither of these situations make me particularly happy, but I understand both of them and as such, I am not too upset.
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Honestly, I rarely see that. Mostly I just see killers going after the first person they see until they're dead.
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I honestly don't ever see that, it might be because my SWF has two flashlight clicking Nea's, so I think the Killer has trouble deciding who to tunnel between them.
I tunnel a bit and I usually try to identify either an obvious weak link or a god-tier gamer who is carrying them and get rid of them. It's rare that I tunnel the first person I see out of the game.
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Yeah, you probably don't see it because I think we can all agree that that's one of the worst ways to play. Hardcore tunnelling? I don't know why I see killers do it. Its like hardcore facecamping, it's just so dumb. Getting someone out of the game is only important if it was time efficient, which I genuinely don't see all that much.
Although, for some reason I get paired with 3-person SWF teams a hell of a lot as a solo, so that could be altering my perceptions a bit. Hardcore tunnelling and facecamping are way more effective against solo's with no info perks.
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I read your scenario after I wrote the comment you just responded to, thank you ^^ I replied to it as well! I agree with you on most/all of those things actually!
Thank you for being "Respectful" at least at the end there - however may I ask you, given having read my suggestion and reasons for it - do you by any chance have a possible better solution that would achieve what I am aiming for that you could think of?
I am just curious if maybe we all put our minds together we can find a creative way to solve the issue that I mentioned, and have it be fair and balanced as well, just as something fun to discuss and brain storm together.
Though my final comment on my previous topic suggestion is that I absolutely don't see how it would "Ruin Red Ranks" as I am already doing this and have been for quite some time now on Killer without having it be "ruined" for me in anyway.
Even if it did "Ruin" some games, I think it would only ruin a few rather than many. I think at least as many as it would ruin it would actually end up benefiting me equally as much.
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That's true.
Logistically speaking, it'd make a lot more sense to target the Solo player in that scenario.
Even if it's a god-tier 3 man, it's still only 2 people on gens at max.
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Give Killers extra BP for hooking unique targets.
Rework NOED so that for every unique Survivor you hook, it adds an extra X seconds of Exposed.
Buff Dying Light so that it gives a bigger penalty to all Survivors when you hook unique Survivors.
You have the creativity for this, but I do not know if you have the experience. Perhaps I'm just cynical from too many hours on the game, but it is nice to see someone trying to solve some problems.
Ultimately, your idea is only going to compound issues on the Survivor side of things. Gens will go faster, since there's no need for anyone to leave them and the Killer will be forced to chose between two losing options. Creating an incentive to not tunnel is a better alternative than creating punishments for tunneling.
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Not this solo. Mostly because she's a ######### to chase and has absolutely zero plan in any situation. Like, ever. Who needs skill when you're insane?
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This is exactly what happened in multiple games in a row the last two days with my Solo Qeue AND SWF Experience.. which is why I decided to make this post today lol. It genuinely does make Survivor not fun to play, even though up until now I always had the bias that Survivors had it Easier than Killers in DBD - that in my mind is still true OVERALL - but I do find it upsetting when Killers that can still get a 4K without tunneling (because of how good they are) decide to tunnel anyways and just make it for a really poor gaming experience for the rest of us.
--- Although after having read now most of all of the responses in this Thread..
MY BIGGEST TAKEAWAY FROM ALL OF THIS IS
Apparently WAY MORE KILLERS TUNNEL than I thought. I must be like, one of the only Killers in this game that actually thinks Tunneling is bad and should be avoided whenever possible. I swear to ALL of you reading this, I actually had no idea that I was such a minority on this issue, in fact I just thought that most respectful Killers felt the same way as me. This is a pretty big shock to me lol but at least now I'm starting to understand why I'm getting so much negative feedback on my suggestions.
And I apologize by the way, I do not mean any harm by it. I can absolutely promise you that you can "Win" over 50% of your matches, whether that means getting +1 Pip or at least 2-4K in Red Ranks without ever using Tunneling as a Method if you continue playing until you figure out your own way of doing so, IF you would like to, but I understand now that most of you WOULD NOT like to , and in that case I don't want to be the one to suggest something to take away that crutch from you.
I just really wish there was at least SOMETHING that a player who gets tunneled by a Killer from the start of the game can do so that it isn't such a completely miserable experience for that one particular player.
Please, at least accept that this is a problem that should have some kind of better solution, and perhaps even try to input something constructive that could help <3
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This is fair.
Most Killers don't expect me to be as dumb as I am when I play Survivor.
I confuse them with my bad plays and overall aloofness.
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