Why is the community so up in arms about noed?
Comments
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Rules for thee but not for me.
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It's as much an outplay as pressing E to get to pallet or window after screwing up. They rushed gens and ignored the danger so you get to end the game fast and force them out or kill them.
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>topic about noed
Mentions dead hard for some reason
every time
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Mentioning swf, exhaustion perks, Shift W meta would get the same response. In terms of how it feels to the opposing side deadhard is closest
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NOED is a bit like an end-of-level-boss. If I face it as survivor, then it adds another optional objective to get out (if it even gets used at all!). I don't get annoyed at it - I actually relish the challenge.
As killer, I always randomize perks, but if I do get NOED it's a reward for fighting one perk down throughout the match. Really, it doesn't give much in return unless the survivors play badly.
However people look at it, being oblivious or ignorant towards how to deal with it is the way it works best. As survivor, always expect NOED and play stealthy, rather than rushing to a gate for a speedrun attempt. It might sometimes reward bad play, but it mostly punishes bad play by the other side.
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To force players to use a perk is not a counter.
Noed is a relic from the past that needs to be reworked. It is an overkill against solo survivors.
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There are only 2 problems with Noed as far as i can see.
1) facecamping
The counter to facecamping is to rush gens, that leaves little time for totem hunting and for the effort it requires is a pretty easy way to guarantee at least a 2k
2) Dull totems are not worth doing outside of noed
Dull totems are just not worth doing just for a chance to maybe counter a potential Noed. Despite what some players think Noed just isn't common enough to always do all totems. Doing them all and seeing the killer didn't have any perk relating to totems just feels like a waste of time.
My prefered change to nerf noed is to buff it. Make it so everytime a survivor cleanses a dull totem they scream, become exposed for 20/25/30 seconds and every survivor gets the hex notification. On top of that only survivors that have been hooked before become exposed when all gens are completed
This will make Noed more usefull throughout the match but more importantly survivors will know it's in play. It no longer is a gamble. And they can't use to make facecamping better
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Small Game, Detectives Hunch, Maps, Counterforce all can be used to COUNTER yes counter NOED. If the perk doesn't pop or get used because survivors cleansed the totems in order to prevent it from being used, that is countering it oh "but go off"
Yeah, and not ever touching a gen is technically a counter to Ruin.
You can't just say 'this makes the perk lose value', you have to look at the applicability of the counter. That's the problem with NOED: It's got two counters, one of which works, and the other is 'jUst dO bONes'.
'Doing bones' does not make NOED lose value. Only the fifth totem makes NOED lose value. All the other ones you cleanse don't hinder NOED at all, and in fact might actually help it. You know how people complain about totems being right out in the open and very easy to spot? Yeah, if you cleanse that, you know for sure that NOED is not gonna go there and is instead going for a better spawn.
Doing bones doesn't do anything if noed isn't there or it takes too much time if noed is there. Just like the rest of your post, an excuse. No matter how annoying noed is, its not even a good perk to run since most survivors with 40% brain function can find a totem and cleanse it on their way to a gen.
If they do that, good for the killer. Means they're not actually going for the 5-cleanse and are instead wiping out the weak totem spawns to goad NOED into a godspawn.
On multiple occasions, I worked on a gen right next to a totem and made the conscious decision NOT to destroy the totem, in case there was NOED. And on multiple occasions, I finish the gen and the totem lights up. If I'd only had 40% brain function and cleansed the totem, the team would've had to hunt NOED down instead of cleansing it 14 seconds after the fifth gen pops.
What a lovely and yet extremely far assumption of a statement. Plenty of killers I go against run noed and nobody carried anybody
Oh, sorry, hang on...
its not even a good perk to run since most survivors with 40% brain function can find a totem and cleanse it on their way to a gen.
So if the killers you're going up against DO actually bring NOED fairly consistently, I guess you're in bottom green ranks? Yeah, you don't need your teammates to carry you there, so my assumption was wrong.
Don't blame a killer for using a perk that this game legit holds your hand to get rid of
Did you read literally -anything- I wrote or is this another 'Just accept the perk tax' thing?
you need them to nerf it.
Says who?
I keep saying it needs a rework due to its trash-tier design. As it stands, it doesn't do the alleged job of making totems a secondary objective, for all the reasons I mentioned.
You opened this thread with the title of 'Why is the community so up in arms about NOED'. You're already coming into this with a pretty aggressive opening post demeaning pretty much everyone else, and when I explain why you are wrong, you flip a lid.
This is why NOED gets people up in arms. It is the worst designed perk in the entire game, by a country mile.
No Mither included.
Point 1 here also deserves stressing: On top of NOED being a killer's freebie with an unintuitive counter mechanism, it is a supporting act to facecamping, the biggest problem the game has.
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So I should waste 5 mins looking for totems? Thats not how it works you find totem as you play not wasting half of game to remove noed because likely you won't get to see endgame with that play nobody has time to search for totems around whole map especially with teammates being allergic to gens and not being able to hold chase 20 seconds and I don't see why ppl who complain about complaiing complains about other party perks to justify theirs? You're asking them to stop complaining but you just complained about dead hard and ub so the point is ppl will complain about things they find unfair both dead hard and noed not just one
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Couldn't the exact same thing be said about Decisive and Dead Hard?
They reward you for making dumb decisions
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It absolutely destroys solos because no one knows how many totems have been done, and no one would waste a third of a game hunting dulls on big-ass maps.
If there was a totem counter for solos I'd say it's balanced
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Yes please more whataboutism, that's what this forum needs
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No, I'm saying:
"Rewards free kills"
Yet these perks reward actually free health states of sorts.
Not saying nerf these perks
Post edited by EQWashu on1 -
Decisive strictly only works for people getting hard-tunneled now
PLEASE stop with the whataboutism
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That's a blatant lie.
I've had survivors purposely abuse the perk just to make stupid risky decisions and get rewarded with it.
It's designed to do that, yes. But do people follow it up to It's word? No.
I had a game where I "tunneled" an individual by accident and ate a Decisive because they had an inner strength set up.
I had survivors win the game just because they were "tunneled" I had survivors save other survivors because I "tunneled."
Yes, it was designed to be anti tunneling, but you will always run into someone who will purposely abuse the perk.
This isn't "whataboutism" this is just day to day stuff you deal with as a killer.
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They ways you can """Abuse""""" DS nowadays are tiny inconveniences to the killer, any meaningful progress automatically shuts the perk off
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Tiny... inconveniences? I'm sorry. What?
When you deal with a competent team you'll run into someone who make you accidentally take the bait, I've fallen for it a few times, some were dumb, but others were actually well played.
I want to reiterate something I think you missed by accident. No, I personally do not believe these perks should be nerfed. They should be left alone. I may have an bias opinion on other stuff, but these two are fine.
But, what urks me is the argument that's being made about NOED being a stupid OP second chance that rewards poor play when Decisive and Dead Hard rewards you with poor play as well.
Difference about one of those is that one of those perks can be used multiple times a match.
Post edited by DwarvenTavern on2 -
Yes, tiny inconveniences. The survivor has to waste their own time not doing the objective in order to bait you with DS, and it's your own fault if you fall for it. Stop dramatizing this now-forgettable perk.
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Oh my lord this was bait, holy hell I fell for that hard lmfao
Jesus, good one
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Content creator makes vid about "whataboutism" Sheeple followers immediately visible.
You can't have a game like this and just nerf the ever loving snot out of one side without the corresponding problems being talked about for the other.
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No, it's not bait.
Start playing and stop whining.
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I have a discussion on my post history about whataboutism in this community made over a year before Scott's video, but nice try
And yes, you can. Every time someone drags another perk from the other team into the discussion, the thread gets temporarily derailed. IE: Above
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So what about the "free" things survivors have? Like Dead Hard? Adrenaline? Killers taking 1-2 seconds to kick gens which can now be blast mined requiring 5-6 seconds to break only for the survivor to take 0.1 seconds to touch it and stop regression.
Im not a fan of noed, whether i play killer or survivor, but the whole "noed is a free down" argument just doesnt work as survivors have a lot more "free" stuff.
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Becuase survivors think they already won after all the gens are powered and rather than blaming themselves for not doing totems they blame the killer.
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Oh. You're being 100% wow.
Okay, I have not once over dramatized this perk once so ever, I never screamed and shouted that this perk needs to be nerfed, not once in this discussion. I just noticed that you can do more plays with Decisive than you did, you chalked it up to being useless while I noticed that you can still make decisions if executed properly.
Which I experienced. You say it's anti tunnel, I say I got jumped scared when I suddenly get stabbed by a downed survivor I didn't realize I already hooked.
I've had people make really nice plays with this perk, just because they thought about it and I've met several others who made poor decisions but still got to make some nice distance.
I'd be over dramatizing this perk if I said it's op, which I haven't. Not once, your argument would hold more ground if I did, but I remind you: Have not.
Again, you said it was "now-forgettable." I still think it holds merit, a good merit, a healthy merit.
What I did say was: "that's kinda dumb arguing about NOED being a strong second chance perk, when Decisive and Dead Hard are things." I'm stating that's it's odd how survivors riot at the second chance perk killers have, but expect us to be blind to their own. You can clearly see the bias views of some of these people.
But, we'll hold off on that. You berated me for "dramatizing" Decisive, yet I never read you saying anything about Dead Hard. Strange. Very, very strange.
Do you think it's strong? I think it's fine. What about you? Are you gonna... "dramatize" Dead Hard?
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Dead Hard is a legit crutch for survivors so I didn't argue it. What, am I supposed to argue on behalf of all things survivor now? Because I don't think DS and NOED are equals?
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because its rewards killers who play poorly and turn a match where survivor dominated into a 4k, HOWERVER the "im solo so i cant deal with it" excuse dosent work when there are multiple perks to help you deal with it
I have been dealing with it just fine without cleansing perks, you can still get away with gen rushing trough it, since its spawn can be controlled.
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I think it's just silly, this arguing back and forth when we're almost equal.
Then I get berated by you because you thought I think Decisive is OP. But, I never thought that once so ever. I think Decisive is one of those perks that needs a bit more thought to use now and if done properly it can severally drop a killer by a peg. It's a thought base perk.
Like... let's use Trapper as an example if that's okay.
Trapper gets rewarded for out smarting other people.
I personally think Decisive falls into that part now
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First and foremost, this is what is wrong with this community. One thing cannot, ever, be considered for what it is. If someone criticizes something about the killer side, killers will instantly come and criticize something about survivors, without even taking into consideration what was being said or how true it was. This has to stop. If one side gets nerfed in something, it doesn't mean the other side needs to be nerfed as well. That is not how balancement works. Keys and Moris aren't correlated, for instance. Yet they keep being compared.
That said, no, it's not the same. DS should be an anti tunneling perk, even more so now that it got nerfed. Yet, the stun it gives is too short to really prevent the killer from tunneling you again. Dead Hard, instead, doesn't work most of the time, giving you the exhausted status when it didn't work or got you hit mid animation anyway. Sure, it is annoying af, but so is Bloodlust. And that isn't even a perk. And when the killer simply moves faster for failing to hit you, survivors need something to close distances with a pallet. I wouldn't really make it so it is instantly recharged when you get hooked, though.
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Adrenaline is a perk that activates only when all gens have been completed. And to complete all of the gens, you must work on them, your objective as a survivor. If you completed all of the gens, you get rewared for completing your objective. As a killer, NOED rewards you for NOT completing your objective, which is far different. And, on the plus side, Adrenaline is an exhaustion perk with a 60 seconds timer. Which means that, for 60 seconds, your DH will be gone. If the killer is chasing you at that time, Adrenaline will only make the chase slightly longer. As per Dead Hard, check what I wrote above. And again, remember, Bloodlust isn't a perk. Yet all killers have it. Blast Mine isn't as good as killers would like to make people think. It only does something if you kick gens when it is activated. If you get there too late, it's wasted. If you chase survivors instead, it's wasted. But, I must say, it baffles me how killer can whine about anything. Before, you used to cry about people combining DS and UB. Now that people don't use those as much as before, you found other things to cry about. Not saying there isn't stuff that needs fixing in this game, there is a lot of it. But, at the very least, try lamenting about things that need that, not about simply everything.
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Okay. I'm gonna say it: I NEVER SAID THESE NEEDED TO BE NERFED.
Do not, and I repeat, do not put words in my mouth.
I'm also tired of constant nagging and screaming of so and so perk is op. Why I said it was because it's a freaking joke about how DUMB it is! I used those two as an example of how unfair it is to demand for a perk to be nerfed if the other side literally has the same types of perks that do the same thing. Second Chance perks.
Keys and Moris are completely different! Those two were blatantly over powered because they guaranteed a victory with little effort. That has been rectified now for the better of the game. Keys with zero charges can't open the hatch and moris now only work on death hook.
That's significantly better than what they were in the past.
By the way, just wanna say this. Being stupid with Dead Hard doesn't mean it isn't strong, it's like having NOED and you used your alternative power that doesn't get NOED's benefits. Your other statements for this perk are correct though, hence why I said it doesn't need to be nerfed.
Also, why the hell bring Bloodlust into this but also say that it's bad to compare mechanics to two different sides?
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Because survivors only care about their fun, and only survivors are allowed to have second chances/unearned crutches.
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It's stressful. Seriously, so many people are up in arms about perks being OP, but the only one I think could use a tweak the most is Prove Thyself. But, I don't know the general consensus of that, I think 30% progression is high. If I did the equation right. 15% to every other survivor right? So, two people get the benefit or did I butcher that hard?
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Stepping in here quickly, please remember this is a discussion forum - everyone is going to have different opinions, but please remain calm and civil in your discussions. Thank you.
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Are you able to confirm if Noed has any planned changes?
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Because Bloodlust is something all killers get, for free. It is, effectively, a 5th perk, that doesn't need a slot. Hence why I compared the two things. If Bloodlust goes away, so we can stop favoring tunnelers, I'm all in for DH to be changed. But the truth is that killers have lots of facilitating things, and Bloodlust doesn't even have to be tied to a perk, in order to be there. If your fellow survivor randoms fail to complete gens, and die, you don't get a speed boost on how fast you can repair them. Nor do you do that if they DC on their first down. Keys and Moris were different in that Moris were far more OP. That said, I think keys could be nerfed in something else, too. Perhaps limiting them to just one per lobby, SWF or not. And NOED isn't really OP, it is just blatantly stupid. It's like old DS was. People kept slugging because they thought survivors would have DS. How's the situation with NOED? If you don't cleanse totems (and you have no idea how many have been destroyed, if you are not playing in a full SWF), you'll probably die. If you waste minute after minute in order to search the entire map, often being the only one in your team doing that, you're giving the killer a lot of additional time to kill you. Either way, it works good for him.
And what exactly does "being stupid with Dead Hard" mean? Hope you aren't referring to getting exhausted while on the ground, because that is nowhere near being the player's fault.
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I'm gonna talk about the Dead Hard one first since it's shorter, hope you don't mind.
I keep hearing that statement over and over, I still don't know what it means, but I've seen topics of people defending Dead Hard because they don't pay attention of what they're doing and Dead Hard into trees, walls, generally any obstacle and try to use that as a case saying as to why it's not strong. That's why associated it with that statement.
Bloodlust, I've never had an issue with Bloodlust as a survivor and I'm decently high up in terms of "Ranking" I know it's broken, but I've never had too much issues.
Now as a killer, I don't even remember the times I've used it for any other killer who isn't an M1 killer, that being said. No. It shouldn't be changed, I know that sounds bad, but for killers who primarily only have an m1, which is a decent cast, that's considered a bad move. Now, I had an exception to this, two perks that supported M1 killers by a lot. Enduring and Brutal Strength. But, unless you're okay with those being basekit for killers, then bloodlust shouldn't change.
Now we get to talk about NOED, one. The killer only has three active perks through the entire trial until end game happens. Nothing. NOED doesn't offer anything passive during not endgame and it can be completely countered by doing totems. But, knowing you, no offense, but whenever someone makes a case against NOED they'll say "That's not a valid strategy."
Yet, we're told time in and time out
"Don't tunnel a survivor" even though they stand in our way with DS and probably Borrowed when we want to get the UNHOOKER, and when we get the Unhooker we either get the Decisive to flashlight us or try to get our agro. I've seen this too many times and it just gets old.
"Just apply more gen pressure" even though there's a new meta going on involving Prove Thyself and Spine Chill (maybe not spine chill, but I have seen A LOT of spine chills comboing with Prove Thyself) we're just told to be more aggressive or dedicate to the meta. Not sure about you, but the meta is freaking boring. I want to play what I want, not use this crap just to have a better chance.
I know you hate comparisons, but... how is that genuinely fair?
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I have always refused to use Moris (if not for something that tasked me with using them), keys (just the same), NOED or DS. Yet, since at least a year, the constant, never ending tunneling I am subject to/witness others being subject to when I play as survivor, convinced me that it now has become a necessity. Because I can't stand being tunneled again and again and again. People commonly associate tunneling with chasing the freshly unhooked survivor to hook him again. And, even if that is true, to me tunneling is more having the killer chase a survivor for longer than it would take to go back in time and come back to that same moment. The game is structured in a way that, sooner or later, a killer will catch that survivor. And that is flawed, because if you are better than him, he should not simply catch you because Bloodlust granted him the ability to do so.
About Dead Hard, I never talked about those who use it into walls or corners. I said that it gets used, gives exhaustion, and DOES NOT prevent you from getting hit. Most of the time you get exhausted, but the perk didn't even activate and you go down.
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Because a lot of people find it 'cheap' (usually the same ones who don't do totems and then complain).
Good survivors will cleanse totems. Hell, a lot of good players can recognize the perks a killer brings & count them. There are a lot of signs a killer has NOED for end game. Some really good teammates will even go back into the match and go looking for the NOED after its activated, instead of just getting out safely. They'll take the risk and try to help the teammate on hook.
Bad survivors will cry about how they deserved to get out but instead die because of 1 end-game perk that they could have eliminated during the entire match.
I wouldn't worry though, those 'bad' survivors will stay bad/likely not learn anything. Because of entitlement. And as for the good ones, they won't complain even if they do die to it because they understand its their job to get rid of it and didn't/couldn't.
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Now that I'm off of work, I freely converse.
No chase under any circumstances should last forever, especially with how the maps are being designed now. Coldwind is absolutely the worst map right now besides RPD. It isn't because the corn, just the loops there are tedious and frustrating.
I've had a jungle gym, Pig tree, long lines (you know the hay on one side of the pallet with broken equipment on the other), into the barn. Christ. Alive. No way in hell should that be allowed. In fact, if they were set spawns, no randomness any more, then I think that way it would be fine to remove Bloodlust, but right now, no.
But, if that doesn't make you agree, then keep in mind killers who can't super lunge like Demo, slow down like clown, loop lock like Trapper, range like Huntress, or even rush like Hillbilly, will suffer immensely by this horrid decision because they don't have any other way of playing catch up or shut down unless they want to make specific builds. But, fun fact, that will cause issues right now because how the game is right now. In addition, might provoke more camping if they can't deal with ridiculous chasing situation. Boy howdy, I love it when a survivor sprint bursts away and I eat 17 pallets before I can even hit them and mind gaming can only get so far.
"Free perk" I sure do appreciate the survivor's free perks on having broken spawns, and potentially great map tile spawns as a "free perk." Broken spawns as in that they're all not together, and with how the gens are designed now where there is slowdown with more survivors on a gen, sure is exciting.
1.) Before you say anything about this, no. Besides making them a set spawn, I don't have any other issue with them, because right now we have the tool help counter that.
2.) Even if Bloodlust is removed tunneling will still be a thing, not sure why everyone automatically assumes that's it's just gonna disappear or help immensely, hell, those killers might pick up more stronger killers just out of spite.
And 3.) We still have an overwhelming list of issues that absolutely need to be took on before the thought about removing or changing Bloodlust can even be entertained.
Now, I've seen a lot of dumbness with deadhard, so it was pretty safe to assume that this would be another pointless argument about Dead Hard.
But you've opened my eyes to a legitimate issue with Dead Hard that will probably be fixed and will inevitably be drowned out by more pointless argumentative cases about Dead Hard.
Oh, and just to be safe
Is Dead Hard OP? No.
Just saying that before I get hit with another "you think DH is OP? Scrub." Like I did last time in a different discussion.
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I think it's silly to say that it's viable to cleanse every totem every match. A lot of matches just don't end up that way, especially in soloq but even with swf. That's part of the fun and surprise of going against hexes.
Noed can be really lame to go up against, but you can almost always tell when a killer's running it based on how they play. Honestly I find devour hope or blood warden to be more annoying, but it doesn't really kill the match unless the killer is a douche.
There's been a few times where I've seen killers make builds that center around noed and I've been very impressed. I'd like to see more of that rather than the same old boring meta builds. That goes for survivors too.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I don't see any problem with noed.
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Sure, that I know of. BHVR claimed, falsely, to have removed infinites. And although they did, in a way, some loops still act CLOSE to infinites. They can be cut off, as the pig tree, for instance, doesn't give survivors enough room for a fast vault, if you do that. Still, having killers with ranged abilities able to bloodlust you, too, is going a bit too far. The way the game is designed, you are pretty much doomed against a Huntress, Nemesis or Deathslinger, and to a certain point PH as well. Due to how fast they can shoot or go back to melee, you either get hit in melee or vault/drop pallets and get hit from the distance during the animation. There isn't much room to breathe. The truth is this game was never ready to go over its vanilla state, where Trapper used to be among the best killers. Because there weren't any. Too many issues, too few proper fixes.
Regarding spawns, I don't see how those are broken. Multiple survivors spawning together is just bad. If the killer finds one, he finds all of you. And you all work on a single gen instead of multiple ones. That's not meant to happen, and it shouldn't be the only option. If it was, then the killer would know the location of all of the players. And many maps suck, survivor wise. All of the iterations of Yamaoka's and Black Swamp are less balanced than a fist fight against a tank would be. Too much room for the killer, too few pallets or vaults. And I hate playing those maps as killer, as well, because they are just bad, obnoxious beyond belief.
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I run a totem perk every game, all 3 of them are great imo and have their pro's and con's, Detective's is the best i think. You don't have to do every of the 5 dull ones if the match is close and sweaty, just do some and remember the places, then if NOED kicks in go for them. Thats how i do it. I feel completely naked without totem perk, and it's extremely frustrating to go against Devour or Ruin without this help. It will always be a gamble, but i think they're not as bad as most killers say. A ruin that lasts longer than 3 minutes or a Devour with 3 tokens can easily carry you through the whole game, not to mention NOED which can turn things completely around if played correctly
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You always have people that get pissed about being beaten, especially when theyve already considered the game won, only to trip at the finish line. Can be a complete meme of a build and people will still get POed about falling for it.
Saw this video earlier and had a laugh at people complaining about the build.
Obviously the perks arnt OP at all...but doesnt stop anyone from raging after falling for the build.
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...
Okay.
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and assume you play more survivor than killer.
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Personally I think its a bad perk. It gives you 1 kill/confirms any hooks you have as kills after all the gens are done but you could have run a more impactful perk that impacted the whole game like sloppy instead of it hell if you are really wanting some form of exposed just run devour you don't have to be losing to activate it. Imo rancor is better than NOED at least it gives some value during the rest of the match. Noed also can be useless in some games where you do reach the endgame, it can get cleansed, the dulls can be cleansed beforehand and if the reason that you lost the game was because survivors were looping you well then the 5% will help but not extremely significantly. I still think NOED needs a rework though because it is a bad perk but also really frustrating. There is nothing like getting ready to pull of your sick double save from the basement during egc and finally get your archive done only for the killer to have NOED.
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Noedvusers almost always never leave hook they are rewarded for not doing anything but winning a first chase and counting down the ds timer.
My gripes with noed at red ranks is the obvious power creep it lends to the really good killers. Ok we survived your really skilled killer only to die to noed. Cool.
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Because doing a 4man escape is very important for the youtube video.
Most people that complain about noed are the ones that rush gens.
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I thought we were, for once, managing to have an intelligent conversation. Guess I was wrong all along. And since I was, please, spare me any eventual reply.
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We were. In fact, we still are, but I'd like you to see why I was confused.
You made a statement that confuses me.
"Sure, that I know of. BHVR claimed, falsely, to have removed infinites. And although they did, in a way, some loops still act CLOSE to infinites."
I didn't ignore your statement about ranged killers, but reading that and you defending the argument that Bloodlust should be changed created a paradox.
The other part was how you stated how Ranged Killers were and how they abuse Bloodlust.
Using your ability shuts off bloodlust, so if you played a lot of killer, you would know this... I imagined you knew this when I saw your pfp as Deathslinger, but reading that made me slow down and verbally say "what?"
Now, I'm not insulting you or shooting down your views, it just threw me off was all.
Edit: If you won't respond than I wish you well, but as a pro tip, please don't ever make confusing responses.
It could be that I was working at the time, but... what was going on with that last post? It was jarbled and it accidentally painted you in a picture of someone who has never played as this role, but will pretend that you have all this boundless knowledge of said role.
Post edited by DwarvenTavern on2
