Gen Speeds
Comments
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This is not true.
Sometimes tunneling is a straight up mistake. You (as the killer) need to understand when to stop chasing the one person. The game was designed as a 4 v 1 which means that part of your job is to patrol generators.
Something which I know many don’t like to hear. Fact of the matter is if you cannot by any means take your eyeballs off that one person, what do you expect the other 3 survivors to do? Get Pom poms and start cheering for you until that person goes down?
Like, I’m not denying that tunneling can be a strat. You take 1 out earlier, the rest is a breeze. The problem is how long is it taking you to tunnel? There comes a point where you either have to look at your playstyle and perhaps ditch that if it’s not working.
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It is representative because, as you said, he was playing a m1 killer who didn't use his power. Traps can be disarmed, which renders the killers power useless. We have a lot of killers with "ammunition" or that require to break the chase in order to regain their power.
A survivor should not be able to run a killer for 4 minutes. At least not a killer with so many hours.
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The problem with the word tunneling is it has a broad usage. When I say tunneling I mean the next person I catch and hook is leaving the game, some people use it for someone who see someone and chases then four gens and then camps them out which is actually the correct usage but the more common one is the one I used. I won't tunnel untell 2 gens are left because I don't want to deal with 1 gen and 4 survivors its a stressful situation
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So... you start to tunnel after the first hook, yes? Because in most of my matches 2-3 gens are gone when the killer gets his first hook.
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Yeah if that becomes the tone of the game the survivors are efficiently doing objectives the I have to match said pace or have a much a much harder game once 1 gen is left
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Makes sense
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It happens because a mix gen speed, survivor spawns,and map size. You can do totems but I won't lie when I play survivor I won't prioritize finding totems over gens if, if I find one on the way or its next to the gen sure but thats just how the flow of the game works
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Survivors don´t do totems, because there is no incentive to do them. At least for most of them.
Old Undying gave survivors an incentive to do all totems. But they didn´t like that. So it was nerfed and along with it the gen slowdown went over board. Since then, killers have been struggling with gen speeds. Surprisingly the devs seem to ignore this issue. Probably because there are still enough killers playing, to entertain survivors.
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After not doing totems, survivors will then complain about NOED. It's bonkers.
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Yes.
That's the reason why I don't recommend using NOED. Sure, it's almost guaranteed to trigger. But the devs will only look at the kill stats and think everything is fine, when killers got 1 or 2 kills because of NOED. Even though, when they barely got any hooks during the match.
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I saw the video and have honestly no idea what you are on about. Nothing of this is representative of this game's balance. I would be curious though how long you think a chase should last in a secenario like shown in that video for the game to be balanced?
He is not using his power in any way, just playing an M1 killer. With killers like Blight, Deathslinger, Pyramid Head, and so on, in this game, of course you shouldn't be able to down a survivor within a minute when not using your power at all. How ridiculously strong would killers otherwise be that have strong powers that aid them in chases?
Then there is of course the fact that these survivor players have probably just as much experience in this game as Otz does.
Not to mention that the survivors in that video generally use a lot of the map, at which point you would also always come along other survivors, that you can go for as well.
Then there's also the fact that this is freaking Cowshed. Every sane person agrees that map is survivor sided beyond imagination, but a map like that is not representative of this game's balance. We definitely still have too many maps that are this survivor sided, but the majority of maps aren't that bad anymore.
And to top it all off, almost everyone agrees that Trapper is not a viable killer either. So even if he used his power, it's only to be expected that he would lose the match.
If someone like Trapper was viable, especially on a map like this, that would imply that many other killers in this game were overpowered and that most maps were killer sided.
So nothing of this video is really representative of the game's balance, except that this game still has problematic maps. It only shows that we need better map updates, but the devs have proven to not be able to do so for whatever reason. I hope once the new matchmaking goes live, the devs will realise they need to update more of these maps to make them more balanced. It's sad that most of these maps have already been updated twice and still remain extremely survivor sided.
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Boy I am happy you are not in charge of this game's balance. You really think the devs only care about the problems that killers face, and not that of survivors? Being camped is the most unfun thing you can experience in a video game, because you don't even get to play the game.
I have a strong feeling that if the devs ever added a second objective to this game, that would simply increase survivors objective time, without doing anything against camping and tunneling, killer queue times would sky rocket.
People are already complaining about camping and tunneling all the time. What do you think will happen when the chances for survivor teams of winning against such killers would become much more slim? I for sure would stop playing survivor, and I doubt I would be alone, knowing that as soon as a killer camps, I will have no fun whatsoever and there is still a good chance of that killer winning.
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You say, that you saw the video. But it looks like you didn´t understand what it was about.
Bringing up the Trappers power is redundant for the discussion of that experiment. It was simply to have a 115% movement speed killer and how long it takes to down a survivor as a m1 killer. Thats about it. A Hag or Huntress would have taken even longer without their power. Because they are slower.
But since you ask, survivors need 3 minutes or less to complete all 5 gens. Therefore a single chase shouldn´t be anywhere near that amount of time. For obvious reasons. Especially when a killers objective is to get 12 hooks.
Camping (and tunneling) both have been addressed in the past. BT has been buffed several times to make the life of a camper significantly harder.
You ask how a secondary objective would look like, well luckily we had that short amount of time between the Undying release and its nerf. During that time, camping was practically non existant. Or so it seemed. Because survivors didn´t complain about camping (or tunneling) but about having to do totems. That killers get a free win when they use Undying Ruin.
What those survivors didn´t mention was, that in order to get ANY benefit/regression out of Ruin, the killer had to constantly switch targets and roam all gens. A camping killer wouldn´t have gotten any benefit out of it. Neither a tunneling killer.
Sadly, survivor preferred getting camped and tunneled (actual quote!) than doing totems.
And here we are! Back to camping and tunneling because survivors just want to hug gens.
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Ok, so now you are starting to argue against your own point.
I obviously didn't miss the point of the video. You said it yourself, it was an experiment to see how long it takes for an M1 killer without power and normal movement speed to down a survivor on one of the most survivor sided maps in the game. Alas, it is pretty much in no way representative of the game's balance, because you are stripping the power of the killer away, which is his main advantage, and to top it off, you are playing on a map that is notoriously known to be one of the most survivor sided maps.
So now tell me how I am missing the point? Because I was talking about the actual game's balance at the start, at which point you brought up this video after I said Otz is a good example of why this game isn't that survivor sided anymore. Yet that video has very little to do with the game's balance.
And furthermore, it takes longer for survivors to do all gens than 3 minutes. If the killer gets not a single hook during the match, and for whatever reason never tries to chase any other survivor off of a gen as well as applies no map pressure whatever, than maybe they'll be able to repair all gens under 3 minutes. But a killer has to play seriously bad for that to happen, especially on balanced maps. Even on maps like Cowshed, matches shouldn't go by that fast.
Also, your attempt to now blame survivors for camping and tunneling again just supports the idea that you do not care for the survivor side even in the slightest, your bias is very obvious. If there is something in the game that seems op to many people, than they are allowed to complain about it. That doesn't mean they prefer to be camped instead.
Yes, Ruin and Undying was a good combo that only really rewarded killers that didn't camp. But that doesn't mean it was completely balanced, and it's still fairly good at the moment as well. And of course there were still killers that would camp despite those perks.
And the idea that no killer would camp if killers had more time is absolutely ridiculous. You don't actually believe that, or? I am sure there are some players that would camp much less, or simply stop to camp, but there are still enough people that would continue to camp. Because if you buff killers with something like a second objective for survivors, the camping and tunneling strategies will also become stronger. And those strategies becoming even better, rewarding a killer with a win, would be absolutely awful. So we would need a second objective that doesn't buff camping and tunneling in the slightest, which would mean interaction from the killer as well. But even then, camping and tunneling will surely still profit from those buffs a bit as well. So they would need to be nerfed nevertheless. You can't expect killers getting their main problem adressed but survivors not.
I also understand that there is counterplay to camping and tunneling, but slap on NOED, and the killer will still be almost guaranteed a 2 kill every match. For extremely little effort. The counterplay also doesn't always work, and it also doesn't solve the problem that it's incredibly unfun to go against.
Not to mention that perks like BT and DS are the only real counters to that strategy. But guess what, killers have perks that counter gen speeds as well. So just use those perks. We are getting three new slowdown perks with Pinhead as well, two of them seem pretty good already. Isn't that great?
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Where do I even start...
First of all, BNP still exist. While not being as strong as they used to be, they still enable survivors to complete all 5 gens in 3 minutes or less.
The experiment was important because a killer can't always use his power for one reasonor another. A huntress can be looped so tight, that she won't be able to use her power.
Otz had another experiment where he tried to down survivors only using the power. He had to use m1, because it wasn't possible for him.
Good survivors know how to loop and when even a stream powerhouse like otz has problems, then the balance is off.
Survivors shouldn't be able to complete gens in the time they complete them now. Killers struggle heavily with the current gen speed. Hell, today I've seen a streamer come up with a build that contained 4 slowdown perks. Killers shouldn't be forced to take so many slowdown perks to have a decent match.
What do killers do when they lose 3 gens in the first chase? They camp. Of course they do, because they feel cornered. Survivors would do the same if they were all on death hook.
So you try to discredit my opinion because I understand the motivation behind camping? Show me a single survivor who walks past a 90% and regressing gen. Survivors even go straight to a gen once they get off the hook. No healing until the gen is gone.
I play solo survivor on red ranks. But somehow I'm biased, because I don't agree with you.
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What are you on about? I'm giving you counterarguments, not discrediting your opinion. You are the one talking smack about survivor mains if anything, at which point I pointed out that it makes it seem like you care very little for survivors. That and of course that you seem to only want killer problems addressed.
I've already explained why the experiment is not representative of this game's balance, so I'll skip that now.
Huntress is map dependent, fair enough, but a good Huntress can definitely get hits with her hatchets on most maps, no matter how good they are. Survivors do have counterplay against Huntress though, that's true.
But there is not one single killer that can't use their power for multiple minutes. I fail to see how that's possible. Even with Huntress. There will always be moments where she can use her hatchets, can you give me an example where a Huntress can't use her hatchets for multiple minutes?
Of course, with a killer, you want to use both their power and M1. You want to play them as effective as possible, which Otz surely isn't doing when he is not using one of the abilities of the killer. Again, survivors being able to loop even Otz for multiple minutes, especially when they have just as much experience, on a survivor sided map like Cowshed without Otz using his power, is not a good example of balance, because no one will play a killer like that. The same goes for using only the killers power and not their M1.
BNPS are still an annoyance when multiple survivors use them, I am not going to argue with that.
And again, you seem to be derailing from the topic that was discussed, this time regarding camping. Now I do understand the motives of camping. But one of my arguments is that it's extremely unfun to go against and a cheap way of winning a game. A game certainly isn't lost after 3 gens are repaired, and if you are good with killer, 3 gens won't always get repaired after the first hook. Resorting to camping is simply a very easy and at least in some cases kind of a cheap way to somehow secure a kill, instead of playing normally. And that can't be the case anymore at the latest when survivors receive another objective.
That's what I was addressing. This has nothing to do with killers camping after 3 gens get repaired in the state the game is right now. This has to do with camping, and tunneling, becoming too powerful if a second objective was added to the game. I'm not sure why you would bring up camping as it is now in the game?
I generally don't blame killer players for camping though, I blame the game for having it be a viable strategy sometimes. In fact, there are situations where a killer is kind of required to camp, when multiple survivors are close to the hook for example, though at that point I wouldn't even call it camping anymore.
I understand that killer can feel stressful, and I would be happy if that was improved on, but that doesn't mean the game is so unbalanced. Killer is certainly more punishing, which I guess is why the game can feel more unbalanced than it actually is.
But adding a second objective without addressing camping and tunneling at all is a recipe for disaster in my opinion.
To be fair, there is a small part in me that would like to see that happen, just to see if I am right about killer queue times sky rocketing. And if that was the case, at least I would get to see all the killer mains coming to the forums and complaining about how long they have to wait to play the game. The downside is that I am a killer main myself and would probably stop playing the game.
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I feel this is where F13 was good in requiring parts or tools to escape. Certainly doable with how Pinhead's box mechanically spawns in. Could do the same with tools or spare parts that gen's would require to fully repair.
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F13 was more fun pretty much across the board for me, both sides. Damned shame it was doomed under Gun Media and Illfonic.
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Survivor issues usually get addressed really really quickly. Just look at how quickly the Undying Ruin combo was nerfed hard and compare it to how long Unbreakable DS was a combo. We are talking about years of difference. Thats why i see killer issues ass more urgent, since survivor issues seem to have priority (sound bug anyone?).
You are right, we are getting a little off topic here, so i´ll just say that there are a couple of maps with zones where there are no lockers around. A Huntress without hatchets and a injured survivor would have to either chase said surivivor (which could be a very long chase) or break the chase completely in search for a locker. Other killers that could face the same issue: Trapper, Trickster, Oni and Myers (maybe Demo, because his ability can be dodged).
The Otz example is simply to show how a extremely experienced killer still has problems against survivors with a similar experience level. If a "normal" killer would have had this isse, people would have dismissed this, because he just needs to "git gud".
Now to losing those 3 gens in the first chase. That is extremely demotivating. A killer who loses 2 or 3 gens in the first chase will be more inclined to camp&tunnel just to secure a kill and/or slowdown the rest of the team. The problem is also, that a killer could perform great and get 2 or 3 hooks before the first gen is completed and still end up with 6 or 7 hooks because completing several gens during a chase isn´t only a phenomenom that happens during the first 2 minutes of the match. Difference is only, that survivors will get "confident" when they complete 4 gens with only 1 or 2 hooks (or even all 5 gens). At that point they might think that they will escape with a minimum of points and try to play more risky against that "weak killer". Which could lead to a snowball situation. I remember a match of a big streamer who played bubba and got 3 hooks by the time the gates were powered. The survivors then became to confident and tried to lure the now camping bubba away instead of cutting their losses and escape. This changed a 1 kill into a 4 kill. Not because he controlled the situation. Not because the game was balanced. Simply because they felt to confident and wanted to get more material for their stream compilation (he played against several streamers). Now on paper, those kills look like killers are OP. But getting so little hooks in the time the survivors complete all gens is a very bad sign. Because he only got the kills because survivors "threw" the game.
Whenever killer queues have "skyrocket" then they were usually at the normal prime time survivor queue level. Means 2-5 minutes. I checked for queue complaint threads in the past year and killer queues only went up during the 5th anniversary event. They instantly went back to normal once the event was over.
Now survivor queues on the other hand skyrocketed around the time Undying was nerfed. We had threads where people complained about lobby dodging killers. Demanding timeouts for dodging killers. Imagine how bad those queues must have been, when people wanted to force killers to play matches they didn´t want to.
It was a direct reaction to the now unstoppable gens. Killers struggled before, and the devs took a tool to slow the game down away.
So, honestly. Do you think the current gen speed aren´t a problem? Survivors complain again about NOED, because they just rush gens and forget about totems. Devs buffed No Way Out because they seem to see how fast the gens go. But instead of fixing the problem, they give killers a bandaid.
The upcoming gen slowdown perks of Pinhead are another attempt to slow the gen rush meta down. But i doubt any of those perks will become a meta or solution.
Devs need to do something about gens or a secondary objective. No one wants to hug a gen for 2 minutes. So the secondary objective would be a better alternative to increase gen times. A new objective would give killers more breathing room to change their loadout instead of stacking gen slowdown perks. Once killers don´t feel cornered anymore, they won´t camp and tunnel. Maybe a few, but we always had some basement bubbas. Those players are just a minority and unlike you think, not everyone would use that extra time to camp more.
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Regarding the perk nerfs, if those were the only examples, I guess you would maybe be right.
On the other hand though, Mettle of Man was nerfed within a similar time span as Undying. And especially the perks of the last two killers have received some noticeable buffs either shortly after their release or even right after the ptb. I don't think surivor issues have priotity. NOED exists even longer than DS as far as I know, and that perk is still the way it is now.
When it comes to the sound bugs, I just feel like that is incompetence of the devs regarding that aspect of the game.
I understand there are situations where you are just an M1 killer. But those are very rare, and the killer has the option to leave the chase as well, and in general try to prevent that to ever happen. Trickster and Huntress have very few situations where they have to play without hatchets/knifes. People that are good with them know how to use their resources effectively, if they end up with no resources, that means the survivor they are chasing outplayed them numerous times in most cases. Oni just needs one hit, he doesn't need to down survivors without his power. And once he does get his power, ######### gets real. And Myers has a smaller terror radius, so only chasing with him while he is an M1 killer is not smart, but to be fair, he is generally considered underpowered anyways for multiple reasons.
Also, Otz experiment was on Cowshed Farm. Again, a very survivor sided map, on most maps a survivor won't survive that long because they don't have the same tools to fight with. And again, you barely ever should end up in a situation as killer where you have no power left. If this does happen to a killer too often, that's balance problem of that one killer, not the entire game. Trapper as well is considered to be pretty underpowered, for example.
The video in the end shows how an experienced killer player such as Otz struggles against just as experienced survivor players on Cowshed by only using M1, but that's simply not representative of the game's balance.
I understand that losing gens can be demotivating, but the problem here is that some people also immediately believe the match is lost at that point, which it isn't. Unless of course you are playing on a survivor sided map, and there are quite a few of them, admittedily.
I do understand though that, despite still being able to win, matches that have 3 gens pop early on can feel stressfull. That's why in general I do think a second objective would be nice. But I don't agree that it's fair to only address the killers biggest issue of games being too stressful, and not the survivors biggest issues. There will still be killer players that will resort to camping and tunneling, those that are not good enough at the game and realise they can win much more easily with camping. Again, camping can already get you multiple kills, especially with NOED. Making that even stronger would be terrible, and I still believe that killer queue times would become very long.
A second objective would also need far more balance changes. On the one hand, we'll have a serious amount of maps that will generally become killer sided. The maps that are considered to be the most balanced, such as Coal Tower, or Father Campbell's Chapel for example. You've already kind of pointed out another problem. Killers resort to slowdown perks right now, well, having a second objective and stacking four slowdown perks will probably become unbearable in the average match, those would need to be nerfed too, the strong ones that is.
Not to mention that some maps would probably still be survivor sided, like Haddonfield and Cowshed.
Then there are Blight, Nurse and Spirit, which all would definitely need some form of nerf as well.
And then there is still the gap between swf and solo survivors. As long as solo survivors aren't buffed to a much closer level of swf survivors, killers can't get fully balanced around swf survivor teams. This game in general can't be balanced around the absolute top level of play, unlike some other online games. Of course the top level should be considered as well, but only balancing around the top level could be disastrous.
A second objective affects everything, as in it will just shift the average balance of the game towards killer more, but there will still be a lot of imbalance among the maps and killers.
Obviously I am not expecting all these balance changes in one patch if a second objective, or an ealry game slowdown, was ever to happen. But at the very least survivors should receive some forthcoming as well by nerfing tunneling and camping. Queue times are pretty balanced at the moment, at least for me. I don't want to experience what would happen if killers received such a substantial buff and survivors got nothing.
To close this up, I would guess that the upcoming Mori changes involves some form of second objective for survivors, because they made it sound like survivors will have some form of interaction where they can prevent killers from using Moris. So a second objective might happen. And if that second objective also needs interaction from the killer, the killer may be forced to not camp in order to slow down the game. In that case perhaps a second objective would be fine without having a nerf to camping and tunneling immediately, but even then, I think that tunneling and camping should be nerfed down the line as well. Again, it's not fair for killer to have their biggest issue fixed but not survivors.
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