Alright, I'm On-Board With A NOED Change.
After many years, I'm finally on-board with a change to NOED. I don't think it's a healthy perk for the game.
I've been seeing more and more Killers use Corrupt, Ruin, Undying and NOED (or some variation of that) and they are not bad Killers. They are good players and are getting 6-7 hooks and a Kill by the time the gens are done. NOED in the hands of a semi-decent Killer is more than the last ditch effort perk it was supposed to be, it's a guaranteed value 2K minimum perk. Before people get too upset, I don't want it nerfed. It can stay at the same power level, it's just how it is now is not good for the game.
Most Survivor players (especially Solo Q) do not have the time to look and scour the maps for totems. Maps like The Game, Hawkins or Midwich are especially good for hiding totems and it only take one singular dull totem to activate NOED.
Again, I don't necessarily want it to be nerfed and I do not think it is overpowered, but I do want it to be changed as I believe it is unhealthy. Perhaps to a reverse Corrupt Intervention, "After 3 gens have been completed, the Entity blocks 3 of the 5 remaining gens in the Trial for 60 seconds." I dunno, just an idea I had, didn't put much thought into it.
What are your thoughts?
Comments
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I think the simplest fair change to NOED is to make it basekit for all killers. That way there's no surprise, which is the most frustrating part of the perk - survivors will just know they actually have to do bones.
I think Kindred and BT should be basekit for survivors, too.
I think a Corrupt in the middle of the match would be a cool idea for a different perk, though. Immediate pick for my Pig, like Plaything was.
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If NOED becomes basekit, you need to make gens take less time and I don't think we want that.
Solo Q players are already pressed for time as it is, that's going to boost the number of SWF's by a lot.
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The thing about NOED is if you bring a perk (i.e. Small Game) and take the time to actually find the dull totems then it's useless. Yes this means instead of gen rushing you do some other objectives.
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Just have NOED trigger the moment the final gen is done that way survivors aren’t surprised when they get smacked.
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It isn't useless. That's someone who isn't doing any gens for a minimum of 70 seconds.
And again, I'm primarily talking about Solo Q and Duo's. Most games you legitimately cannot afford to not be doing gens during that time.
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Noed alone is fine.
But if Killers use Noed with 3 slow down & tunnel/camp. Its likely 3-4k everymatch. Having Noed basekit just to remove "surprise", Killer would put 4th slow down.
There is no way to change Noed to prevent tunnel/camp into Noed for 2k. If still keep the perk has Exposed effect. Rancor is also a problem like Noed because of this way of playing.
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That's really not addressing the issue though.
Yes, the surprise thing is good, but the issue is that the counter straight up doesn't exist in 99% of Solo Q games and it's unreasonable to achieve.
I'd legitimately like to see some stats as to how many times all FIVE totems are cleansed in a match.
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To me, there is only one change needed to NOED; when the last gen is popped, the "exposed" status effect appears on the survivors right away.
Gives the survivors the chance to realize what's going on without having to get stabbed to find out. They can then choose what to do about it (go totem hunting before trying the gates and hope they don't run into the killer or try to hit the gate and GTFO or something else).
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In solo it’s probably low but idk how the devs could determine that.
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I've always been ambivalent about NOED. It's a strong perk, but risky like all hexes. Can easily be handled with teamwork, decimates solo queue, moderately predictable based on killer performance (or frosty eyes, lol), and most controversial for its ability to allow a failing killer to grab several kills at the end of the game. Only gives value for a short period of the game, but has massive snowball potential and pairs devastatingly well with other endgame perks. Never used it myself and don't especially care what happens to it.
I think boons may have shaken things up, though. We've all heard "just do bones." Cleansing totems used to be a net win for the team (or at least a neutral, unless another player brought Inner Strength and couldn't get any), but now the counterplay to NOED prevents the team from using boons, which unlike Inner Strength incentivizes leaving as many up as possible. I think it's less clear for teams how to proceed, especially solos who don't know what their teammates brought and can't know whether they should be getting rid of bones for a perk that may not exist or preserving bones for perks that may not exist.
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I dunno either, but who knows maybe they have the stats for it.
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I don't think that's a good change.
That's not addressing the core issue.
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True, it was made as a band-aid fix for killers back in the day when they couldn't pressure survivors quick enough to prevent gens from flying. It is just unhealthy at this point. Not game breaking or anything, but annoying and very much outdated.
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It would be nice if we had something to look up for this info.
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Maybe one of the Mods or Devs will pop in to say something, idk.
I'd genuinely like to know and it isn't something I've seen brought up before.
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The thing is, NOED alone isn't a broken perk, it's just unfair. But if you stack it with slowdown perks such as Corrupt, Ruin, and PGTW, it's sure as hell broken.
If I had to change it I'd probably make it so that the survivors are cursed by NOED at the start of the trial, and in order to deactivate it they must destroy every single dull totem on the map. After the 5th gen gets done, each time the killer downs a survivor destroys a dull totem. If at least one dull totem stays on the map, the killer has the opportunity to kill the survivor (which takes time to do). If the killer downs a survivor with only one dull totem on the map the killer no longer gains the ability to kill the survivors because NOED gets deactivated. Survivors have the ability to destroy the NOED totems to remove NOED after the 5th gen is done.
Oh yeah and the killer will have the ability to see how many totems are on the map at any time since it will have a token indicator.
This change would essentially turn the perk into a slowdown perk and a risk-reward (if they don't do bones and instead manage to escape) perk for the survivors. Now that they know that they should do the bones, it'd actually punish survivors for not doing all bones, and still help them if they cleanse a few. I'm not sure if this change would make NOED overpowered, but as a downside to it, the perk would be hindered by other hex perks since hex totems won't count as NOED tokens. Boon totems will also not count as NOED totems.
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I had an idea for it a while back:
"You will devour the last hope for survivors as the entity rewards your skillful hunts.
You receive one token for every survivor you hook while generators remain. When the last generator is completed, if you have at least 7/6/5 tokens, the perk activates and every survivor is exposed for the next 60 seconds."
This change is to only affect those who got enough hooks in (pretty manageable) and remove its HEX aspect so the killer no longer has to worry about totems being cleansed/blessed.
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See, I disagree. The Core Issue seems to be that survivors want a chance to counter it (they've had all match to counter it but that's a different argument ;D). Finding out that the killer has NOED without having to get hit gives them exactly that. They have the opportunity now to determine what they should do about the NOED if they didn't spend the time during the game to clear out dem bones.
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The same minute you quoted me, I added an addendum about Kindred and BT also being basekit.
I think Gens are largely fine, as is, even as a killer main. I think a few changes could be made to basekits for a lil extra regression, I think items are a mite too strong, I think a lot of tweaks could be made - preferably at the same time - to effect some QoL.
I just think NOED wouldn't earn nearly so much ire if the Exposed status was expected, even anticipated.
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The issue is that it's totally unreasonable to expect Solo's to get all 5 totems without there even being a guarantee that they have NOED.
It takes 70 seconds at a minimum to cleanse all 5 totems, not accounting for search or travel time. Maybe if you're in a SWF, you can get away with that, but Solo Q gets decimated.
I'd really love to see some stats about how many totems get cleansed on average per match
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I think that would be fine.
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I'm trying to understand the argument. Though I'm not sold either way. This is the only perk in the game that requires you to do dull totems. I used to feel it's unhealthy for the game but either way you spin it, the perk is fine for the game. Changing anything about it in regards to the power it brings to a killer, will again, make dull totems never be touched.
I'm not sure what you refer to is it's "core issue" because you haven't given us what you believe to be the "core issue" with the perk. The only thing I can deduce from the thread is you believe it's a nuisance to solo-Q. Which isn't even true. It takes 1 person to run Small Game and there will never be a NOED to worry about. Regardless of the 70 seconds to do them. Many forget this isn't additive time to the overall trial. There are 4 survivors. This time is shared time. Within that 70 seconds, not accounting for tool boxes or speed up perks, in 10 more seconds there can be 2 gens to pop and then you could in theory could be on a gen for 10 seconds while this happens.
In the grand scheme of things, in a decent MMR game, doing all dulls will only extend the trail probably 20-30 seconds on the high end. This isn't any meaningful time to the killer. Even for a quick chase this is just edging on 1 down, pickup, and hook. Including the NOED will just scrap another mid-chase on someone else.
So from my POV, doing anything to this perk will completely ruin it and make dull totems never touched again.
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I think that kind of info is wrong imagine the other way around when survivor get rescue and they have DS or BT the killer could see the symbol beside the portrait like that they know if the have those perk active i dont think that kind of info should be in the game honestly
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I for one am completely fine with noed. I feel that any change could make it worse.
There are many things to do with noed.
1) cleanse/bless the totems beforehand. There are already so many perks for this.
2) open the door(s) and escape.
3) find the totem and cleanse it.
These are all viable actions. There have been many games where my noed was hunted down and cleansed. And others that the survivors just left.
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I don't usually agree with a lot of your posts, but I agree with this. NOED does need some changes. I am not sure what they could do, though.
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>>"Most Survivor players (especially Solo Q) do not have the time to look and scour the maps for totems. Maps like The Game, Hawkins or Midwich are especially good for hiding totems and it only take one singular dull totem to activate NOED."<<
There are tools to make it easy to find totems, so that is simply not a good excuse. People rather just gen rush and risk it, and NOED is the price. Now with Boon Totems, survivors don't want to cleanse totems. Changing a killer's perk just because survivors don't want to counter it, is not a good reason.
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I don't see any reason to change NOED myself. If the killer doesn't show any hexes at all then you should already be playing around NOED and doing totems. Of course that includes times where the killer is running hexes too. Just in general a good idea to do them for extra BP and killer notifications.
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You completely missed my argument.
Solo Q and Duo's do not have that kind of time, especially not with a GUESS that they have NOED.
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This is just completely false.
Even if your basing off the assumption NOBODY is doing anything, this doesn't make it a fair argument.
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What Noed really needs is some indication it's in play. Even if it's in the killer's favour.
For example making it when a survivor cleanses a dull totem they scream and reveal their location. While technically a buff it will remove the surprise factor from the survivors.
That and something to prevent hard campers to get use out of it. Maybe making the expose effect not trigger on survivors who cleansed a dull totem or getting atleast 3 hooks or something
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Oh, really?
How many times do you see people going out of their way to cleanse dull totems? Not often.
Most of my Survivor games are down to the wire. MMR seems to be working well for that at least. The Killer usually has 6-7 hooks and maybe a Kill by the time the gens are done. You're going to tell me we could afford to go scour the map for totems on the chance that the Killer might have NOED?
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It's far too strong right now.
I'm not seeing it on bad Killers either, really good players are using it in conjunction with slowdown perks.
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Overloading the perk just to make it be indicated beforehand doesn't seem like a great idea. It's already a contentious perk.
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Um, yes. Yes I am saying you have time.
I'm getting the hint we play in completely different MMR.
Ignoring that, you know all that time survivors spend sitting in the exit gate after it's open? To either get hit out, or teabag and what-have-you? The time you spend doing that should be put into doing dulls. So once again, yes. You have time as a solo survivor to do totems or insure others are if it bothers them that much.
People don't NOT do dulls because "the game is so close" they don't do it because people would rather slam gens. Most good survivors either don't do ALL of them, or do none and just remember where they are in case NOED is in play at the end. In nearly all high MMR games the only way a killer gets away with a 3 or 4k is greed on the survivors side. That's the only way. You greed for altruistic plays, or slamming gens even near a killer.
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I play a lot of games where I simply don't have time to do totems... my whole team would die if I did.
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Yeah, you're clearly playing against bad Killers if you have time to do totems /s
Don't bring MMR into this discussion, nobody can prove anything like that and insinuating I'm bad isn't helping your argument.
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I agree that NOED probably needs to be altered - but there is such a thing as timing.
Killers are getting shellacked right now.
Let's start by helping the underdog side out for a bit, then we can talk about kicking them again.
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I not trying to be rude but anecdotally yes, you may run into games where this is the case. It's DBD after all. But lets math this out. Lets say a match is like idk 10 minutes. For this example lets say everyone escaped. That 10 minutes is 40 minutes of collective time because multiple things can be done at once...there are multiple survivors remember. You meaning to tell me within this 40 minutes a collective time you cant use 1 minute and 10 seconds to do all the totems? Lets say 2 minutes for travel time too.
Now lets say everyone died right, and you did all the the dulls. Did you really hurt your team? Lets say it's 10 minutes again. One person dies at 5 minutes, another at 7, another at 9, and you last at the 10 minutes. Well total time is ~30 minutes. So again I ask you, does 2 minutes really take that much time of the allotted time for the team in that match?
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Helping them prior to changing NOED will make it even worse than it is right now.
It's unhealthier than I am and that's saying something
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I never said you nor I was the "high MMR". Nor did I insinuate it. You reading way to deep or looking for something to derail to.
So why are you resorting to accusing me of being "low MMR"?
"nobody can prove anything like that and insinuating I'm bad isn't helping your argument"
Like I said, regardless, the math just says your wrong.
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I've always viewed NOED as training wheels for baby killers. Heck, I used it all the time in my first 100 or so hours. In the hands of a good killer, it's just too much.
I agree that one change that makes sense is for the survivors to get a notification as soon as it is active, not when someone gets hit.
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The only change to Noed i'd agree with is making minimal requirement of 5 hook states. This will solve the problematic thing of facecamping + Noed, which has no counter.
But until survivor meta of preemptive running, holding W, predropping pallets, using overload of second chance perks, gen rushing, until it changes, i dont want to see Noed nerfed. Its the only saving grace on m1 killers right now.
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There's a /s that means it was sarcasm.
And no, your math doesn't check out.
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I think that's a start, but it would be better to give it an effect during the trial for two reasons.
One, so it isn't a dead perk slot and gives the Killer some benefit.
Two, so that Survivors know it's around and can plan accordingly
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I don't think so. Right now the priority should be bringing more killers, killer perks and addons up to snuff.
NOED is strong, but it's not unbeatable and there are things you can do to counter it.
- A big part of what you should be doing is trying to determine what perks the killer is running. Most of the meta perks are either very obvious (CI, Pop, Ruin etc.) or somewhat obvious (Discordance, Starstruck). If you notice that the killer has 1 'blank' spot, probably 2 (smart killers run NOED with NWO) you'll need to anticipate it.
- If you are in a coordinated group, focus on running the killer while someone finds and cleanses NOED. By that time, NWO will have expired and you can leave. If you are solo, run out the timer and leave.
- If the killer gets a hook, don't go and unhook until NOED has been cleansed.
- If all else fails, leave the person on the hook and leave. NOED is only really strong against altruistic groups.
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Okay what part of it? Your not even attempting to engage in a discussion. Your practically plugging your ears and saying "Blah blah blah, your wrong".
Being quick to try and derail because your looking to deep into what I say, or not engaging, is a weird way of looking for a convincing argument"
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That's simply not true. I'm basically only seeing it on Killers who are running 3 Slowdown perks. That's not the typical "NOED user" build. NOED is fine if there are 4 people up. The issue comes when the game is actually even and there are only 3 people when the final gen is popped. If there are 4 people up, no worries, even if he slugs we can easily get the other guy up and open a door while he chases someone else. With 3 people, if he slugs you have an issue. There's very little shot that you'll find the totem on any of the re-designed maps (not fast enough anyways) and he has all the pressure and time in the world.
What needs to happen is that all meta perks need to be gutted, then we can look at the base game.
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Tie Breaking Totems into opening Hatch somehow. Maybe 1 of the 5 Totems contains a Dull/Skeleton Key.
Then make Dull Totems light into Hexes once the Exit Gates are powered, that the Killer can snuff to expose all Survivors for 60s. (Time to play hide-n-seek instead of hold W)
Then make taking the Perk NOED prevent all Totems from lighting, and only 1 Totem will light that is unsnuffable and all Survivors are Exposed.
Contemplate if the Survivors should be shown the exposed indicator when exposed by the Perk NOED.
Contemplate if Dull Totems should have a "sound".
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Getting to see your posts more and more on the forums leaves me begging the question: What do you think the meta perks are? Do you mean all meta perks, or just killer meta perks?
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I did not miss your point, it was just a bad point. It takes 12 seconds to cleanse a dull totem. If all 4 people make the attempt, it is hardly noticeable. What is funny, bringing it up now, is that people are managing to find the time to bless totems multiple times, yet cleansing them is a hardship. NOED does not need to be changed simply because people do not want to put in the time to cleanse totems. NOED makes a risk vs reward situation. Take the time to cleanse totems, or potentially face NOED. Yes, they may not have NOED, but you should be assuming that they do, every game. And, as you said, more and more killers are. Killers have a similar situation with Hex perks. Maybe they will be on a nicely hidden totem, or maybe they will be out in the open right next to the first gen the survivors work on.
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