Alright, I'm On-Board With A NOED Change.
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DS, DH, UB, PT, BT and some of the more OP items/add-ons (BNP/Styptic Agent) ect ect
PGTW, CI, Ruin, Undying, plus the more OP add-ons (Pinky Finger/ Engineer's Fang) ect ect
It's funny, usually people think I main Killer.
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Isn't this the only second chance perk the killer has? Why should this be changed when survivors have multiple second chance perks? If NOED is removed or changed, something on the survivor side needs to be changed/removed too.
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You are giving up a bare minimum of 1.5 gens to do 5 totems which may or may not have some impact on the match. That's assuming you aren't chased and go directly to where every totem is.
Your math fails to consider any sort of de-moralizing factor. It sucks to see 3 gens pop as Killer and a lot of time people will get tilted. Likewise, you fail to consider any variables. What map is it? Does he have other Hex perks? Is he running Undying? How good are your teammates? Are you running Small Game or Counterforce?
You've done a very very broad calculation for a very nuanced and specific discussion.
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I really don’t think NOED should be looked at BEFORE gen speeds, killer viability, etc. are addressed. They just go way too quick if you don’t run slowdown perks, and in that case a NOED surprise is well-deserved and the survivors earn zero sympathy from me.
I do think it’s bull crap for a killer to get free kills at endgame due to NOED, but there are more pressing issues that would need to be looked at first.
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It's actually 14 seconds.
How many of your random's are cleansing totems? Again, you're making an argument that you can't prove and that I can't disprove.
Blessing a totem does take time, but it also gives a massive benefit for doing so. It also doesn't really affect NOED because I've yet to see a Killer who will allow a Boon Totem to stay unsnuffed for long.
I just don't see how people can think NOED is a healthy and good perk. It does exactly what Old DS did. It forces you to play around it regardless of whether or not the player actually had it. The similarities don't end there, but you get the point.
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No, it sure isn't lol.
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This is an anecdote, and probably not an accurate one (if it is, then you are playing at a really bizarre MMR).
- A lot of regression perks have no or negative synergies with each other. At best it winds up being overkill. You'll regress one gen to 0% but will eventually lose a battle of attrition without any info perks. If I recall, the most commonly selected Killer perk was BBQ, and has been for ages. Watch some good killers - the only time that someone would run this sort of loadout would be a gag build.
- 3 players up is fine. At worst you lose 1, which is what BHVR have said is the intended result of the average match (2 kills, 2 escapes). Below 3 players - if he pulled that off before NOED activated, you were outplayed and he probably deserves more kills.
- If he slugs rather than hooking, you win (it's way harder to guard a slug). Don't be altruistic, loop him until the gates open and split up. Once one gate is done, everyone head there. He'll either hook the slug, or try and get you. Either way, just leave.
- And yet this thread isn't 'gut all meta perks' (which would amount to more survivor perks being nerfed than killer perks). It's another 'nerf NOED' thread. This is actually an excellent example of a Motte and Bailey fallacy, haven't seen one of those in a while.
The latter, obviously. If it wasn't for his post count, I'd assume he was another Sluzzy alt.
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I don't disagree, but I think it does need to happen.
I would be interested in seeing the stats for the number of dull totems cleansed on average per trial depending on the groups of Survivors. For example, how many got cleansed with 4 Solo's vs 2 Solo's and a Duo ect ect
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What other killer perks would you consider second chance perks?
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Well I can say now you come from a place of honesty. You really reach sometimes, but your honest.
Okay, I am very open to nuanced topics, hell I hoped on someone for deducing a more nuanced topic, but forgive me....in terms of if NOED is unhealthy for the game it's not very nuanced. All of these variable your listing is a fraction of something like a survivors skill and awareness. I mean I GUESS they are a part of it, but it's like a fraction of a fraction of meaning.
Even if you take my "very broad calculation" to it's worse end, you can still in theory find time to do totems or at least know where they are to render NOED useless. Which is why the math checks out. On either end, you can still find time to do something about NOED.
I think the problem here is your looking for a complex solution for a simple problem.
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- You don't need tracking perks on certain Killers. Or any really if you are attuned to the intricate ways of the Entity (look for crows)
- The last experience I had with this was a Wraith on The Game. All-Seeing Blood + Purple Windstorm. 3 players up is an almost confirmed 4K if the Killer is smart. Slug one, go to a door, slug the other and then return to the other slug to find the other two. You can't get a door open in time. Unless you give him a 3K, in which case you can.
- I've already made my argument for killing all meta perks. Also, please note the numerous times I said that I DON'T WANT NOED TO BE NERFED. Changing an extremely problematic and bad perk is not an unreasonable idea.
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No Way Out, Remember Me, Undying, Bloodwarden ect ect
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Yup, I agree NOED needs a change. But like I said, other changes in the killer’s favor need to happen first in my opinion. NOED is a band aid solution for gens going way too quick, either due to gen speeds themselves or lack of killer viability (see Deathslinger, Legion, Clown, etc.).
I would love for NOED to be reworked into a speed buff at endgame, maybe like 10%-15%. Remove the hex aspect as well (give it a 2-3 minute max duration if it seems too strong).
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I thought my idea was good too :(
In all seriousness, I don't really care when it gets changed. I was on the side of "just do bones" for a long long time. It just isn't feasible for Survivors to do all 5 totems in a close game on a chance that the Killer has NOED. And now that I'm able to play Survivor again, I can experience that joyous fun first-hand lmao
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Yeah it’s very difficult for a solo Q team to cleanse all 5 totems if it’s a map with that ONE finnicky spot no one checks.
I usually duo, rarely do I always have a 4-man team so I bring Detectives here and there to not depend on my randoms cleansing totems.
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I've said in another thread I'd like to see a rework. Personally I'd like it to operate a bit like No Way Out. You get a stack for each different survivor you hook up to 4 stacks. You get 30 seconds per token. Once you hit a survivor after the last gen pops the timer starts.
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I posted something and apparently didn't go through either way I hate to be a reductionist but I feel they are making a complex solution for a simple problem.
I think you fail to realize the way this perk sits in the meta is in a spot where if you touch it's power position it grants at all, you completely gut the perk and make dull totems useless (besides boons of course) or make it way to overpowered.
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I think noed is fine it costs a perk slot for the killer to use and potentially never activates and its also countered by plenty of survivor perks and items
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You have betrayed the order of killer, Pulsar. We are all supposed to blindly defend NOED because the survivors dislike it. What have you become? Hiss!
In all seriousness, I genuinely wasn't expecting this thread. Mixing it up a bit, our daily NOED talk needed a bit more spice.
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Which is why I am suggesting a change. I very clearly said I did not want to nerf it. I even gave a suggestion that would make it extremely strong, imo.
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Well, I got tired of the mindless drivel and decided to go out in the wilds of Survivor-land to experience it myself.
It feels cheap in the same way Old DS was, but it still isn't OP. I'd rather change it entirely to something more useful than leave it as is.
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Did you think Old DS was fine?
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I think NOED is fine the way it is. Fair and balanced in my opinion.
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Can you explain that?
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Bingo!
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Dismissing a legitimate discussion for a meme is always classy.
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Yes but as I've mentioned many times now. Any change will make it truly unhealthy if we go down that route. Instead of this pseudo-unhealthy. But I guess agree to disagree.
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The thing you're missing here is that you're assuming only one person does all totems.
Because in solo queue reality, if people were to actually do totems, all four survivors might end up scouring the map looking for totems, including sweeping areas where their teammates have already been.
So that 70 seconds of cleansing time plus 120 of travel time gets multiplied by four. That'll put you at almost 13 minutes, which is over 25% extra time the killer gets to wipe the entire party. And here's the kicker: It doesn't necessarily cost the killer a perk slot.
The issue with NOED is that it creates so many lose/lose scenarios for survivors trying to counter it by pre-emptively doing bones. You do the totems, but the killer didn't have NOED? You lose out. You don't do the totems, the killer had NOED? You lose out. You do the totems, but you fail to find totem 5, and the killer has NOED? You lose out even harder.
NOED has two intrinsic issues that make 'do bones' a bad counter to it. One is that it is not guaranteed to show, two is that the first four totems cleansed do not weaken NOED in any way, shape or form, and instead run the risk of actually making NOED stronger. After all, if you cleanse all the totems you can find, you make sure that NOED goes to the one totem you -can't- find.
The biggest slap-in-the-face regarding NOED is that the totem counter, which was asked for to pull solo and swiffer onto a more even playing field and make balancing easier, was added to the perk tax instead. That should never have happened.
So how do you fix NOED?
If you really want it to be the thing to turn dull totems into a second objective, it has to be baseline, and it has to scale in severity with the amount of totems remaining. Give it scaling benefits based on how many totems are left alive, for example:
1 totem: 4% movespeed
2 totems: 4% movespeed and all survivors are exposed.
3 totems: 4% movespeed, all survivors are exposed and oblivious.
4 totems: 4% movespeed, all survivors are exposed and oblivious. The entity blocks windows after one in-chase fast-vault, as opposed to three.
5 totems: 4% movespeed, all survivors are exposed, oblivious, and have their aura revealed to the killer. The entity blocks windows after one in-chase fast-vault, as opposed to three.
The only problem with that is, as previously mentioned, camping, which would make this broken as all hell. But pretty much any kind of balancing idea generally runs into the same issue: 'This would be pretty good, but camping is a thing'.
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Well, you explained it better than me.
#########, I'm really off my game aren't I?
Either way, thank you for doing that.
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I've been going over this argument in pretty much every NOED thread since I started playing DbD. I've had practice.
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What argument did I make that can't be proven? I never claimed that any specific number of players were cleansing totems. But there are 4 survivors and 5 totems. That's 17.5 seconds per player, on average. Hardly a great hardship. I typically cleanse at least 1 totem per game, and I see others doing it too. The problem is getting all survivors to commit to doing them. The problem is the gen rush mentality. Rush gens and escape.
Boons give them a massive benefit to bless them? That must mean that NOED, as it is now, is not enough of a threat to incentivize players to cleanse them. And, while a killer may snuff a Boon totem if they see it, they can't afford to run around looking for them. Btw, DS still forces the killer to play around it, whether the survivor has it or not. The change made it better, but didn't change that aspect. Killers still have to assume that a player is using DS.
The rise in the use of NOED came from the same place as the increase in camping, tunneling, and slugging. Gen times. As long as gen rushing is a thing, you can't keep taking away tools from killers. Doing totems will slow gen times a bit, which is why so many survivors ignore them. Gen rushing is the meta.
Your view seems to be that survivors are not cleansing totems, so NOED should be changed. Dull totems were made cleansable for a reason. NOED was meant to be a threat for a reason. The devs do not want to add another type of secondary objective, so we are left with totems and NOED. They could make it so that other perks could jump totems when cleansed, if there are dull ones available. That might add some incentive. Then it wouldn't just be about not knowing if the killer has NOED, and feeling like it's a waste of time.
Maybe if they scrapped the whole totem system and made perks, like Ruin, regular perks (like Ruin used to be), something could be worked out. And, if the devs could find a proper way to balance the game, we would be just fine. Until then...
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For me I'd remove the hex part of it and make it timed.
NOED:
- 60/75/90 seconds
- No extra speed boost
I only want it changed because I hate the argument "just do totems". Everybody that's played this game long enough knows you can't "just do totems" every single game.
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I play a lot of survivor and i almost never see killers use NOED. If they have it i am okay with that. I have to say that my teammates have become better after the SBMM was released. Recently i played against a trickster with NOED. He hooked me in the basement and my teammates were all looking for the totem. (Soloq) They found the totem and were able to save me. Everyone got out. We all know that sometimes the killer gets a kill just because of NOED. But in my opinion NOED is no insurance for anything. With the new boon totems NOED is even easier to counter. But i agree that sometimes NOED can feel unfair because the killer didn't play good and still got a kill because of NOED.
I play a lot of different killers and i almost only use NOED on killers that i am not really good with. I almost never use it on a killer i am good with, but sometimes killer can be really hard and i still sometimes decide to use it. I don't think it's fair to nerf it. But i can understand that people hate it. But that is just my opinion.
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I think we should really push survivors to cleanse totems more. I see the blame placed on a perk that has counterplay because people are refusing to do the counterplay. The problem seems to be the players not the perk. We pushed people to focus gens, run the same few perks and hold w, I think we can push them into doing totems more. Its not like survivors are lacking the time either.
I can't say "yeah solo players can't do it" when they aren't even trying to. I run small game a lot and I'm really tired of finding the last totem in clear view right next to a gen one of my teammates did.
However, an idea I can still get behind is like, when the last gen pops you get a token for each remaining dull totem. Every time you instadown a survivor the perk loses 1 token, that way even doing a few dulls on your own you can weaken the perk. 2 instadonws instead of an unlimited amount for doing 3 totems is a significant change. 5 instadowns is still strong as well if they do none. It still keeps the idea of making survivors care about dull totems. Could maybe remove the hex status as well.
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I think that change is fine.
The counter to NOED is to SWF.
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I don't want to nerf it. Where did I say I wanted to nerf it.
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Again, most of my games we do not have the time to scour the map for totems.
We'd waste so much time doing so that the Killer would automatically win.
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Totally disagree, it's a really good perk and I have 0 trust in behaviour turning this into a perk of equal power level. Plus it's one of this perks that gives potential value even if you don't have it equipped, just by existing, wich is really good.
I use NOED with trapper, it's really really good and frankly doesn't feel like a cheap win like most people say, I've been working the whole game setting up traps to get to that point with the end game build, survivors have had more than enough time to disrupt it, that's on them to not consider end-game as part of the game.
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Change the way it procs. That’s all people are asking for.
It doesn’t make sense that a killer can virtually afk and get it to proc via the survivor’s main objective.
No Ed has a counter already. I don’t think it needs any more counters.
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Again, that is because players, including yourself, are not committed to it. There are perks and items that allow you to locate totems, so you don't have to "scour" the map wasting time but, again, people prioritize doing gens faster, and the tools that allow them to do that. You keep making the same argument, which essentially equates to "survivors don't want to cleanse totems, so NOED needs to be changed so they don't have to.". Funny how you ignored everything else I wrote. If you are scared of NOED, cleanse the totems. If you can't be bothered, that is on you. The perk doesn't need to be changed because some survivors are just to lazy to counter it.
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Noed in my opinion is in good condition. Survivors for some reason think that if they started all the generators then they won. But no. They will win if they run away. Until then, the game is not over. And noed is a good perk that allows you to turn the game upside down. I would like the perk to stop being hex, but start after energizing the gate and run for 120 seconds.
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I understand this, but all of this to say 1 perk out of the 16 perks survivors can have can be Small Game, and it's all avoided. All the hunting, all the worry, all the "lose/lose". Everything. Small Game.
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I'm sorry but no... Survivors have so many perks to counter NOED and if they don't want to drop one of their 4 second chances then they get what they deserve. Hell, you don't even need a totem perk since totems have set spawns and all you need to do is learn them.
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Do you...play Solo Q at all?
I've never seen a match where the Killer has had NOED and not had it proc.
Small Game still requires you to run around looking for them, but it narrows the search.
Counterforce does the same.
You are assuming that Survivors have time to do so. You seem to think that Killers are getting one hook by the time 5 gens are done. That is not the case. These games are already down to the wire. 6-7 hooks with a Kill mixed in here and there. Spending 70 seconds cleansing totems would actually result in a 4K in those scenarios. Not only that, but the Killer may not even have it.
It's idiotic that a perk has that much power and whose only counter is to essentially throw the match.
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Sure, assuming they don't get chased (or tunneled out of the game) and are in a SWF so they can tell their team that they don't need to look for totems anymore.
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Counterforce and Small Game.
NOED does nothing against SWF and murders Solo Q. Do you think that is fair?
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I think it's pretty clear if you run into 2 totems broken, your team is cleansing totems. You dont even need a perk for that
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Solo queue is all I play. Again, if you have never seen it not proc, it is because you don't have all 4 players committed to it. And, please don't talk about survivors not having enough time to cleanse totems. Time is on the side of survivors. It's 4 v 1. Killers are the ones on a time crunch. If the survivors are being outplayed, then yeah, time will be against them, but all things being equal, time is on their side. Plus, we already established that survivors seem to have plenty of time to bless totems.
Small game is great. You don't need to run around the map specifically looking for totems, just do what you normally do and when it goes off, find the totem and cleanse it. If you don't want to waste time and have a good memory, you could leave the totems and wait till NOED triggers, then run around to the places you saw the totems and cleanse the lit one, and if it doesn't trigger, you are good. Risk vs reward, up to you.
Counterforce is not the same. When you cleanse a totem it shows you the aura of another totem. Granted, still problematic for the first couple. However, maybe you have heard of these things called "maps". They can show you the auras of totems. Makes them very easy to find. I almost never see people bring maps though, because they focus on toolboxes, med kits, flashlights and keys.
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He doesn't think there is enough time to cleanse totems unironically so I doubt he will budge there, though the next goalpost is to just completely ignore the plethora of things survivors have to mitigate something like NOED or any Hex perk for that matter.
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The fact this forum fails to discuss SWF vs SoloQ with any degree of insight tells you all you need to know about any insight itll provide into dealing with NOED.
'jUsT cLeAr tOtEmS'
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