Fair and fun solution to SWF problem
Comments
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2 v 6 is a cool idea, but I feel as though it would have very long queue times. Would be hard to get duo killers with comms, and if solo players don't enjoy the mode, (and I don't think they would, since you'd probably get flamed by the swf group for extending queue times and weakening their team by not having comms with other people) then the issue would only get worse.
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@RSB said:
Everyone knows, that SWF is not fair.I'm a killer....I disagree. SWF is nothing new. It's been in the game from the start. The game has enjoyed success for it's first year in spite of your alleged "imbalance". I don't deny it sounds a bit fun, but the game suffers in many other, more reasonable, areas at the moment. To add another killer would throw off what balance has been achieved.
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@FSB75 said:
@RSB said:
Everyone knows, that SWF is not fair.I'm a killer....I disagree. SWF is nothing new. It's been in the game from the start. The game has enjoyed success for it's first year in spite of your alleged "imbalance". I don't deny it sounds a bit fun, but the game suffers in many other, more reasonable, areas at the moment. To add another killer would throw off what balance has been achieved.
The thing is, it was not in the game from the start, as you have said. The devs implemented it, because survivors wanted to play with their friend, meanwhile the game WAS AND IS balanced for solo killer and solo survivors. That's why we need a solo mode, and KWF/SWF mode. For balancing and fairness.
@SaltyKiller said:
How about, crazy idea, the Dev team fixes the current balance problems and weird bugs and THEN once that's done it's time to think of adding a new mode? I know that's just an absolutely insane idea that no rational human being could think of but hear me out.I won't be talking to you, forum troll, sorry.
@Abyssionknight said:
2 v 6 is a cool idea, but I feel as though it would have very long queue times. Would be hard to get duo killers with comms, and if solo players don't enjoy the mode, (and I don't think they would, since you'd probably get flamed by the swf group for extending queue times and weakening their team by not having comms with other people) then the issue would only get worse.It would not expand queues, because SWF will still play SWF, solo will still play solo. In KWF mode you could play with random killer anyway, so do not worry.
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So kill with friends? are you trying to destroy the immersion? The story of each killer?
When did Mickey meet Freddy? could be a licensing issue.Fixing the balance in general should help poor baby killers
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I think this is a nice and fun way to balance the game. The killer being able to have a friend against 6 survivors sounds fair to me. I do think SWF should not be allowed in Ranked because of how powerful it is.
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After having my ass kicked by a 3 team SWF team who absolutely positively didn't use mics?!?
Here's what I'd like to see. Being forewarned let's you be prepared. In the lobby, I wanna know who has joined my lobby as a team of survivors: either a team of 2, 2&2, 3&1, or (dear God) a team of 4. This at least let's me know that I might need to bring out my big-gun add ons.
The thing is that SWF gives knowledge to the survivors, balance that knowledge out by giving information to the killer.
Does that seem fair?0 -
I think separating the two would be a good choice. However I don't think we should increase the numbers, it would be a bit hard to balance.
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the killers should get 4 AI swf and the swf get a AI killer. all problems solved. SaltyKiller, your posts are so awsome, you brighten my day. it's really an inspiration reading them :chuffed:
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@Axlegolas said:
the killers should get 4 AI swf and the swf get a AI killer. all problems solved. SaltyKiller, your posts are so awsome, you brighten my day. it's really an inspiration reading them :chuffed:Look at the AI in the "Tutorial" in PTB xD
@lastloadout said:
I think this is a nice and fun way to balance the game. The killer being able to have a friend against 6 survivors sounds fair to me. I do think SWF should not be allowed in Ranked because of how powerful it is.Also it would be really fair, because killer could play with his friend/random and have much more fun.
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Honestly when it comes to the SWF question i think taking a simple approach would be the best one. The bulk of the issues we experience from SWF is the 3 and 4 man cancer squads that make the game a nightmare to play. 1.) We could create two separate queues. One of them is an unranked casual mode that allows SWF and Solo players to join. Solo players and killers would be granted some buff's in this mode aswell as a bloodpoint bonus for hosting this match. Then the ranked mode could be entirely solo queue. Remove the ability to see steam names and steam profiles and scrap the pregame chat. This would make lobby hopping impossible to accomplish.
2.) Now this solution i think the devs would be more onboard with and it would take less work. Like i stated earlier in my post SWF becomes a serious problem when you are running against 3 and 4 man squads. If separate queues are out of the question i think a compromise is in order. Only allow 2 man SWF and completely remove 3 and 4 man SWF from the game unless you play KYF. 2 man SWF is not as horrible to deal with and the killer could easily be buffed in certain areas to accommodate. Its mostly just 2 friends having a good time. Again remove the ability to view steam names and profiles and scrap the pre game chat and ability to see killers loadouts on death.Edit: oh also Survive with Friends could also be renamed to Survive with a Friend.
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I could be wrong but I feel like this would split the community even more.
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@RSB said:
Everyone knows, that SWF is not fair. Thanks to their coordination and voice chats, they gain the benefits of several aura reading perks, they can coordinate which perks they bring, they can set their roles (gen-rusher, looper), etc.Dear devs, you know, and I know it. But what can you do? Deleting it would irritate survivors, which would end up in the drop of the playerbase and your earnings, which are important. Without them you cannot develop this game.
So, deleting it would irritate them, nerfing it probably too. So what now?This is my idea:
Split the game into two gamemodes.
1) 1 versus 4, 5 generators - The same as it is now, BUT without SWF. What does it mean? It means that ONLY solo survivors can join to the lobby of the killer. They cannot be in SWF
2) 2 versus 6, 9 generators - Yes, 2vs6. "Fight fire with fire", as they say. Let the killer play with his friend in KWF mode (Kill With Friend). In this mode, 2 killers join to the first lobby (the same lobby as SWF has), then they click "Ready" and create the proper lobby, where survivors can join. It would be the only lobby where survivors could play in SWF, and it would be OPTIONAL for solo survivors to join this lobby as well (just and option, in Settings, or in the main menu, which enables the solo survivor to play in 2vs6 lobby). Then, you could limit the teammates in SWF to 3, so there would be maximum of 2 teams of SWF in one lobby (but this is optional).
What are your thoughts?
that's neither fair or fun, and honestly, I love facing swf, they are rarely coordinated and bring eachother down to a fault, separating the lobbies is not the way to go, and 2vs6 is unfair when 1vs4 is already a slaughterfest with enough skill on a good day
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@SaltyKiller said:
Best possible and most fair solution: Killer receives a buff per number of SWF players that join a lobby.So how about something like NOED? If 2 SWF people join a lobby, the Killer is now 2 or 3% faster. 3 SWF people join then the Killer is now 4 or 5% faster. 4 man SWF and the Killer is now 6 or 7 or even 8% faster.
I feel like an 8% speed boost against a 4 man SWF squad is pretty fair considering just how stupidly OP a 4 man squad can be.
dude, the games with a looper not always swf, it's the lone lunatic kite players
I assume that you've never talked to the survivor part of the community?
rarely is a kite playing with others, unless it's to tell them not to waste pallets, which tbh, makes little to no difference, as they take the chase anyways, only time it matters is if you go for someone else, then the kite don't want them to waste pallets while he tries to retake the chase, which reminds me:
your option is to go for the other survivors, or put pressure on the gen warriors, there's many solutions all of which requires outskilling the kite, ignore their bait and taking the lead, and if you face a good looper, remember, Freddy and Hag are the best at anti-loops followed by Huntress and Hillbilly (I'm not even gonna place nurse in comparison btw, she's always a nudge above), even if Freddy has a reputation of being the worst killer, he's actually built to withstand loopsFreddy explanation along with looping: looping is a beautiful phenomenon that happens due to collision, it seems like the survivors are faster, but it's only because they are taking the closer route by having their center closer to the wall they are looping around, Freddy however, is also tiny, this makes him the fastest to route around loops among all killers except nurse, as nurse could just blink through...
This is btw, the reason that survivors think Freddy's lunge is further, because he can lunge around a loop like no other killer with what seems like a higher speed, and this is also the reason to why Freddy has among the highest kill-rates (according to stats from about a month ago)1 -
Just give solo comms equal to SWF, so they are equal strength, then nerf both. Balance achieved
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@Jack11803 said:
Just give solo comms equal to SWF, so they are equal strength, then nerf both. Balance achievedMaybe this too, but new gamemode would be very cool, people want to play killers together.
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@Michael_Myers said:
Would be interesting to see how Freddy's dream demon power would be integrated into a KWF scenario. Would the other killer play the match in the dream world, or would one be in the dream world while the other isn't? Could be cool either way.The other killer wouldnt be in the dreamworld ofc.
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Sadly its not going to happen, such a mode would be insanely hard to balance and the devs cant even balance their normal gamemode
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@Jack11803 said:
Just give solo comms equal to SWF, so they are equal strength, then nerf both. Balance achievedI like your suggestion Jack. As much as i hate it this would be the most effective solution to the SWF question. Make Solo queue and SWF on equal grounds in terms of strength and then buff the killers from there. I know i have made posts making very clear my contempt for SWF and some of my ideas are extreme but yours seems like the most reasonable solution that helps everyone get what they want. Only thing i would like to add is make it so that a Solo queue can disable all comms if they so desire if they want to avoid talking with the rest of the team ( or to avoid BM because we all know that will become a problem guaranteed )
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Daddy Trapper and Daddy Myers dream team. Yes please. But what happens if bith killers bring the same hex perk like noed or ruin. Would there be 2 hex totems? And if so, would it remain active until both are destroyed. Or perhaps, would one ruin effect only four of the six survivors so that when one is destroyed, 2 of the six would no longer be effected. And if one killer brings noed, do both killers get the effect. Or will 2 totems spawn, each with an assigned killer. And what about stacking perks like thanatophobia. If one person ever got damaged, that would be a VERY sizable debuff to actions. All fun things to think about. DADDY DUO!!!0
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Anything that gets SWF seperated & out of ranked play is a good idea.
One thing I would add though is to make KYF not invite-only.
Add a server browser so you can see what games have open slots to play in. Of course the host would still need to have an option to make the game private so it doesnt show up in the browser if they just want to play with friends and dont want random people joining.1 -
As someone only playing swf on ps4 (and Solo on PC) i agree with the idea of two Killers vs swf if that would keep people from dodging 80 % of the time. Or even disable ranked for us swf players.
I have seen so many people getting mistreated by swf groups it sickens me - one of my buddies and I even encountered a swf Team so toxic we agreed to not use specific perks while playing swf. This includes self care, adrenaline, anythingelse healing related, Sprint and ds. (obviously because we can heal and help each other when needed)
We also agreed on not revealing perks if someone dies (although we often laugh and tell the others of our Group that they are dead if specific things are used by the killer ex: mori, nobody escapes death). I just hope more swf groups would play more fairly and less toxic to make the game more fun for All of us!
And by the way: thanks to All Killers on ps4 Not dodging our swf lobbies! You guys are often the most fun Killers of them All and we are glad that you guys take up the challenge against a Team! We love you :chuffed:0 -
How bout they just separate SWF from ranked and give killers double BP for dealing with death squads of flashlight wielding maniacs as incentive to Q that mode. That way ranked stays pure solo Q for fairness and SWF still get killers to play with. Nevermind, just saw that was already sugested lol.
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The idea could be interesting, but I see mainly two problems. The first is that it should require new bigger maps (like old Pale Rose or bigger), the second is that killers with the ability to slow down survivors progress like Freddy, the Doctor and the Pig with a chase killer like the Nurse, Billy or the Huntress would make a deadly (and mostly unfun) combo. Imagine a Doc with maxed shock range that does nothing but bringing survivors into madness 3 while a Nurse downs them one after the other. No healing, no gens... just survivors at the mercy of the killers.
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@White_Owl said:
The idea could be interesting, but I see mainly two problems. The first is that it should require new bigger maps (like old Pale Rose or bigger), the second is that killers with the ability to slow down survivors progress like Freddy, the Doctor and the Pig with a chase killer like the Nurse, Billy or the Huntress would make a deadly (and mostly unfun) combo. Imagine a Doc with maxed shock range that does nothing but bringing survivors into madness 3 while a Nurse downs them one after the other. No healing, no gens... just survivors at the mercy of the killers.It is a two-edged sword. There are more survivors too, so it equals to more flashlights etc.
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This is the only solution to SWF I actually care for at all, and I appreciate that instead of just complaining and trying to buff killers into the stratosphere you have a fun way for killers to get to SWF too. I think that's wonderful.
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@hill_o said:
This is the only solution to SWF I actually care for at all, and I appreciate that instead of just complaining and trying to buff killers into the stratosphere you have a fun way for killers to get to SWF too. I think that's wonderful.Thank you kindly ;> I also think that it is he best resolution to this problem: we get rid of one balance problem, we get way easier balance in the future (because of two modes) and we get a mode that almost everybody wanted - 2 killers in KWF.
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@RSB said:
@hill_o said:
This is the only solution to SWF I actually care for at all, and I appreciate that instead of just complaining and trying to buff killers into the stratosphere you have a fun way for killers to get to SWF too. I think that's wonderful.Thank you kindly ;> I also think that it is he best resolution to this problem: we get rid of one balance problem, we get way easier balance in the future (because of two modes) and we get a mode that almost everybody wanted - 2 killers in KWF.
Exactly! And then killers get to SWF and that would be really fun. xD
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The killers are made so strong, its supposed to be 4v1. If anything they should add in game comms that way you can play the game how its supposed to be 4v1. Right now in the lower levels of the game there are many killers that tunnel, and its basically 1v1 granted 3 survivors may still get out, sucks still to be that person that got tunneled, or even face camped. I think 2 killers vs 8 survivors would be a lot of fun though. I don't know how bad the lag would be but dedicated servers are the answer.
Add in game comms that way it can always be how the game was intended 4v1 - TEAMWORK against an OP killer is fair.
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@rObLoCo said:
The killers are made so strong, its supposed to be 4v1. If anything they should add in game comms that way you can play the game how its supposed to be 4v1. Right now in the lower levels of the game there are many killers that tunnel, and its basically 1v1 granted 3 survivors may still get out, sucks still to be that person that got tunneled, or even face camped. I think 2 killers vs 8 survivors would be a lot of fun though. I don't know how bad the lag would be but dedicated servers are the answer.Add in game comms that way it can always be how the game was intended 4v1 - TEAMWORK against an OP killer is fair.
I recommend playing killer for yourself at mid-high ranks and then you can speak how "OP" the killer is.
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@RSB said:
@rObLoCo said:
The killers are made so strong, its supposed to be 4v1. If anything they should add in game comms that way you can play the game how its supposed to be 4v1. Right now in the lower levels of the game there are many killers that tunnel, and its basically 1v1 granted 3 survivors may still get out, sucks still to be that person that got tunneled, or even face camped. I think 2 killers vs 8 survivors would be a lot of fun though. I don't know how bad the lag would be but dedicated servers are the answer.Add in game comms that way it can always be how the game was intended 4v1 - TEAMWORK against an OP killer is fair.
I recommend playing killer for yourself at mid-high ranks and then you can speak how "OP" the killer is.
I have played at level 10, this is just doing dailys and whatnot. I don't use any perks and can still catch at least 2 survivors. The issue is the killer wants to catch 4 every map and feels that if he don't then he's somehow been cheated.
On the other foot a survivor doesn't expect to live every map or cry about it. Be happy if you catch 1 survivor, you don't have to kill em all every time you go into a map. Survivors don't survive every map...come on now...0 -
Or how about a KWF (kill with friends) where you and up to 4 of your friends play as killer against a single survivor?
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Oh, yeah, 2 Doctors and infinite M3? Balanced as hell. Or even this: Nurse&Nurse, 6 survivours, 9 gens. It will be an easy game, since evading 2 nurses blinking to different places is impossible for anyone. They will just take every survivour on the map one by one, until they all are dead.
How the ######### SWF is hard to play? I usually get either 4x SWf or 4 solo players and they ALL play exactly the same. Furthermore, skilled people do not need voice comms to understand what to do in most of situations, they are aware of the situation almost completely.
Both survivour and killer. Though, having unlimitad survivours and killers in KYF would be fantastic.0 -
As others have said, on the surface this sounds like an awesome idea, but when you get down to the mechanics, it would be almost impossible to implement. Additionally, the maps would have to be greatly expanded; otherwise, the survivors wouldn’t have any chance at all.
However, the idea of changing SWF to match by rank and to turn off the emblem/ranking system for the match, has merit. Offering only bloodpoints and experience seems right. The only down side might be if there aren’t enough killers willing to partitcipate, and the wait times could be very long. It might be strange for single players to enter via SWF, but you can do that now, so it would just be a training thing. The killer should have the option of playing only with solo players, only with SWF groups, or randomly be matched with either based on the current matchmaking server loads. This wouldn’t require very many changes to the code at all.
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bottom line - there is no 'fun and fair' solution.... i say buff killers to compensate for swf lobbies. but then ppl say its not fair to the occasional randos. so i guess its more fair to **** a killer who has no swf options rather than inconvenience a survivor who opted not to accept the option....
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@rObLoCo said:
The killers are made so strong, its supposed to be 4v1. If anything they should add in game comms that way you can play the game how its supposed to be 4v1. Right now in the lower levels of the game there are many killers that tunnel, and its basically 1v1 granted 3 survivors may still get out, sucks still to be that person that got tunneled, or even face camped. I think 2 killers vs 8 survivors would be a lot of fun though. I don't know how bad the lag would be but dedicated servers are the answer.Add in game comms that way it can always be how the game was intended 4v1 - TEAMWORK against an OP killer is fair.
Clearly you dont play killer yourself
Even in a usual 1vs4 (i.e. everyone palying solo) the killer is weak AF (except nurse) and can be looped into oblivion. Adding SWF on top of that is just a joke1 -
@Master said:
@rObLoCo said:
The killers are made so strong, its supposed to be 4v1. If anything they should add in game comms that way you can play the game how its supposed to be 4v1. Right now in the lower levels of the game there are many killers that tunnel, and its basically 1v1 granted 3 survivors may still get out, sucks still to be that person that got tunneled, or even face camped. I think 2 killers vs 8 survivors would be a lot of fun though. I don't know how bad the lag would be but dedicated servers are the answer.Add in game comms that way it can always be how the game was intended 4v1 - TEAMWORK against an OP killer is fair.
Clearly you dont play killer yourself
Even in a usual 1vs4 (i.e. everyone palying solo) the killer is weak AF (except nurse) and can be looped into oblivion. Adding SWF on top of that is just a jokeYep, that is true. People should play both sides to see the true "balance" of this game.
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How about 3 vs 12,
All survivors vs 3 killers, all gens have to be completed to open gates.
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I don't really want this because of balance or anything; don't get me wrong, I'm glad that it does that.
But I only want this because DAMN killing with my buddy sounds awesome.0 -
his suggestion/fix is as old as time itself. Just make a different Q from SOLO and SWF Players, and have the killers opt out the option to play against groups, solos, or both!
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It sounds so cool but you gotta think it would be impossible for survivors to survive(i play a lot of killer btw) killers would just both target the same person or corner them and get pretty much an insta down or they would both have 1 in a chase then hook them both and no one would be able to do gens because they need to save it sounds cool but is a little impractical if this were to ever happen it would need some tipping in the survivors favor in some way0
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I've been contemplating a Kill With A Friend mode for several months. There are inherent problems.
What is the optimally, statistically fair survivor group size versus 2 killers?
How many gens on the field and what ratio needs repaired to open the gates? Should it be a larger or smaller repaired gen ratio than a game of 1 vs. 4 survivors?
Should we disallow clone killers so that we don't have 2 of the same killers in the one match? (I shudder to think of 2 Nurses, even 2 noobs doing it.)
Larger play groups require more computing power. Devs don't want to exclude people with older hardware, which is likely a large minority (if not majority) of paying customers. That means prohibitively expensive stacks of dedicated servers in order to be consistently playable.
If KWF did become reality then I suggest it not be for ranks but for a fixed percentage of bonus bloodpoints for the survivors having to face a duo of killers. In fact, I've long thought that killers should get a percent bonus of bloodpoints for each SWF opponent in a match.
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I really like this idea as a killer main rank 1 but also as a survivor rank 1 player. It would be interesting in the least. There would have to be 8 or even 9 survivors tho since you could otherwise just use two killers on one survivor and tunnel and camp them really hard. Which would suck for survivors and killers alike
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Not that I don't like the idea, but this would basically be another game and would require a whole new balance scheme to be managed concurrently, etc. You're essentially asking for DbD 2 as another game mode that would have to be managed concurrently, and we can all see how much of a struggle it is to balance the game as it is.0
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They need to ptb this.0
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@Baphomett said:
Not that I don't like the idea, but this would basically be another game and would require a whole new balance scheme to be managed concurrently, etc. You're essentially asking for DbD 2 as another game mode that would have to be managed concurrently, and we can all see how much of a struggle it is to balance the game as it is.I disagree, it just needs a few tweaks, not complete overhaul of the game. And please remember, that it would be another mode, you would be able to play 4vs1 as always.
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As I said in my earlier post, mode 1 sounds like an idea I posted earlier. Mode 2 has no chance at all of ever becoming a reality as written, as I t would be impossible to balance. However, if it was changed to make it a Red Team vs Blue Team type of game, where each team was 1 killer and 4 survivors, the maps were significantly larger, with 14 generators (7 for each team, evenly distributed), and separate basements for each killer, then it might be possible. The exit gates would be shared, but their status is based on the status of each individual team. They would need to have opening controls on each side of the gate, 1 for red, 1 for blue. If the red team has opened their gates, but the blue team hasn’t, then the blue team would see the gates as closed.
Teams would be allowed to sandbag each other, and tell their killer where opposing survivors are located. I have no doubt that the survivors of either team would rarely make it out alive, but it would make for a true team vs team game. This would of course be a completely different mode of play, and would most likely take an entirely separate dev team to pull off, as they wouldn’t be able to work on the current schedule and this game mode at the same time.
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Devs already said there will never be 2 killers in a single game.
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