BT should be nerfed, here's why
Maybe I'm just being salty because it feels like it happens a lot.
What I'm noticing survivors doing a lot is purposely follow you so after you hook a survivor they can get hit, save while you're in the attack cooldown animation, and then Dead Hard avoiding the hit and getting their teammate hit. Another common scenario is they run you to the hook and then the saved survivor bodyblocks you until they get hit.
Borrowed Time is meant to punish killers that are both camping and tunneling. These scenarios, at the very least from the killers perspective, are not fair Borrowed Time plays. You're doing something to cause the illusion of camping and tunneling when in reality you're just being an a-hole and it feels a lot like perk abuse.
Here's my suggested nerf. If a survivor is hit while borrowed time is active on them and it's a protection hit, borrowed time's endurance is negated and the survivor is downed.
Like I said, maybe I'm just being really salty, but I stg this happens almost every match now and I'm sick of it happening. Survivors shouldn't be getting rewarded for these plays with borrowed time.
Edit: After reading the comments, and I read ALL of them, I've realized maybe the first step to making my suggested nerf work would be to shorten the range that you can get a protection hit on. If a survivor is 10 meters away, you're not protecting them from anything except MAYBE a Huntress hatchet. There is no reason for it to be that large. Also, my suggestion is just one suggestion and other suggestions on how to fix this are always welcome. I saw someone mention taking away survivor collision for the one that has Borrowed Time. That I think is also a great suggestion.
Comments
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That's the same idea I had a while ago, and it turns out that what the game considers a protection hit is very, very generous.
IE, generous enough to make the perk useless.
Just remove collision from the person with BT while it's in effect so they can't bodyblock you.
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Not been salty this is a common problem. Sure bt and ds are just fine when use ad intended but when survivors start to use them offensively is when it's a problem.
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I've always thought BT should work on a time AND distance based system.
For example, "When a Killer has remained within X meters of a Survivor for more than X seconds, Borrowed Time will apply the Endurance status to the unhooked Survivor.
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I never find it a problem honestly. You can wait BT out and it's completely useless. In the scenario you mentioned, now both are injured and very vulnerable. I do get how it's annoying in endgame or when you're trying to finish off a survivor, but it's so easily avoidable as is DS imo.
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I don't mind it. I'll just bap them one and choose a different target. Dead Hard is the big problem here, IMHO (and CoH).
That's not a bad idea either though. It's a bit like the old DS in a way, where it's clearly intended to be an anti-tunneling perk but is too often used offensively.
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You guys complain about everything. BT is completely fine.
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- Body is 1 character too short.
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Back with old BT if I knew they had it I was able to use Victor to avoid it since it was based on terror radius it was dirty but I kinda miss it XD
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Sorry but as long as Camping is not properly dealt with, BT can stay as it is for all I care.
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Protection hits can sometimes be clunky, so I would say just remove the BT'd survivor's collision so that they can't bodyblock, and prioritize other survivors being hit instead if they somehow get hit when bodyblocking.
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Godforbid people give feedback on a gaming forum expressly for giving feedback.
This is...actually an incredibly elegant solution. 10/10.
It's perfectly fine when being used as an anti-tunnel/camp perk.
It's annoying when it's used as an offensive tool.
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I disagree with this. If I get unhooked with BT I should be able to protect my teammate if I want. This isn't even needed.
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Sooooo, what's the counterplay?
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Either smack the survivor that was unhooked or try to get past them. Survivors don't always successfully body block. We shouldn't nerf things just because they are useful. It's not broken or OP at all. It's okay for both sides to have good perks in the game.
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Oh yeah, tell me more about how standing in a doorway so that I can't go after the guy who unhooked you is good game design.
It's a lose-lose and it needs to go.
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Then go a different way. Not all maps have tons of doorways. It's fine
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No, it's not.
I'm done discussing this if you aren't willing to do so in good faith and I'm beginning to get frustrated.
Have a good night.
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I didn't come up with the idea (other than the priority part) so I don't deserve credit, but it's by far the best solution IMO.
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Sure, you can do that, but you shouldn't be able to. Killers shouldn't be punished for not wanting to tunnel.
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That would just kill BT as it would lose the anti-camp/ tunnel off hook aspect due to protection hits having a 10 meter radius.
But survivors losing collision would be nice.
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TBF you can also body block (as killer) the recently unhooked at that same doorway and wait BT out just to down them again...
and that isn't good game design either. Not to mention if the killer was already putting themselves in that situation by Camping just to force a trade.
Two bad game designs in one.
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I generally think that the Killer should be able to shove survivors out of the way, I mean most Killers are super bulky and buff, the more flimsy ones are entity-enhanced.
I admit that bodyblocking is somewhat clever, but its also super unimmersive and yet one more instance were the Killer gets zero respect from the survivors and they play you like a fidel. So don't take it away, but let the killer bulldoze pesky survivors out of the way with 25% - 33% movement speed or something; enough that its a noticable slowdown, but nothing that truly stops a determined Killer.
regarding borrowed time: yeah, I hate its offensive application so much! I am a Killer main, but when I played a fair bit of survivor I learned the hard way how aweful being tunneld feels, ie you get finally rescued, but the Killer focuses on you and downs you instantly, again, and thats mainly because at my baby survivor level, no one plays BT, so I 100% see the need and appeal for such a perk, BUT its not used as a get away insurance, its used as a "throw a wrench into every hook defending attempt the Killer is trying" ability, and that leaves a very, very sour taste in my mouth.
Like some peeps here proposed, make the unhooked survivor affected from Borrowed Time lose collision, so that you can hit their teammates through them, should they try to stand in your way, this would encourage a more careful rescue playstyle and give the perk its original intention back. Right now you often have zero chance to meaningful defent a hook, if you dont camp right in front of it to interrupt the unhooking process, and I think that it would be much healthier for the game if the unhooking was at least a little bit risky?
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To be fair, this is an issue with almost all survivor perks and the core reason why I find the role tedious to play for more than a game or two in a row.
Nearly all survivor perks are just...bleh. They wander the gamut from brokenly overpowered to amazingly weak but are almost never interactive or require meaningful risk/decision making.
It's also one of the main things I love about playing killer. While many of them are undercooked, so many killer perks require you to do something different, can be outplayed and change up both the way you and the survivors have to play.
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You haven't read what alot of us are saying, BT and DH are not real issue when used as intended but when used as a offensive perk is annoying. Because that will just get you tunneld off hook more from what I have seen.
X player gets BT from thier rescuer. X player decides to body block and then run away. Killer decides to chase the one who decided to be cheeky and run interference to down them again. Then X player and other complain saying the killer tunneled when it's the X players own fault for drawing attention towards them in the first place.
I for one dont have a issue with either, except for the hit validation bug that no one seems to want to care about.....but I dont go for the one unhooked but the the one doing the unhooking.
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Correct.
Remove the collision and that solves that issue.
Also, BT doesn't exclusively punish camping. I normally see it used to facilitate unsafe unhooks, for example, I hook someone, turn away and they get unhooked.
I sure as hell wasn't camping.
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So until Camping is properly dealt with, why shouldn't people try to block if the killer is Camping?
I don't see any good reason not to. They deserve it at that point.
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A lot of times killers force unsafe unhooks and body blocking can come in handy. It can be annoying sometimes, but it’s not broken. We should focus on things that actually do need nerfs/buffs.
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Probably because camping is a legit strategy.
Forcing the Killer into a lose-lose situation is a legit strategy, but I don't believe it should be.
It's like telling a group of Solo Survivors to go cleanse 5 totems (which will probably take 3 minutes at least) on the assumption that the Killer may have NOED. It just isn't right. They lose no matter what.
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Agreed.
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Sorry but it's not a legit strategy when the killer only gets 1k with 2 hooks (at best). That isn't playing the game, it is idling at the hook. They might as well be afk at that point.
A real strategy would suggest the killer wants to win (I.E. PLAY THE GAME). The game isn't downing your first survivor and then standing still for the remainder. That isn't Dead by Daylight.
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So the "solution" is a teammate of a survivor being camped can at best trade hooks with BT, as they most likely take a hit going for the save and then immediately go down as the teammate can't block?
I'm sure that will make camping an unappealing tactic.
Also makes end game saves nearly impossible.
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Oh, you're talking about facecamping
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Waiting 12 seconds and watching the unhooked survivor panic as they realize they're about to have a very short match.
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You realize 12 seconds can get you to a loop easily right?
They'll be just fine if they want to be.
EDIT: That's also assuming the Killer hits them the instant BT wears off. Not before and not after.
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You said the survivor was blocking you in a doorway, not running to a loop.
You realize the survivor can't get to a loop while they're blocking you in a doorway right?
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Yes.
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Here we are going in circles. You are right: bodyblocking a camping killer certainly feels good and is the right thing to do, but once learned you will employ this tactic against every killer who comes back and tries to defend the hook, or when a teammate tries a super unsave cheeky unhooking right in the killers face. And here the killer gets punished for doing nothing wrong, nor can the survivors be criticized for employing a technique that works. So we are looking for a solution that shuts down the offensive use of BT, that mostly punishes good, non-camping Killers, while leaving its core intact, ie shutting down tunneling.
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So what I am gathering is that they need to make improvements on the game itself to be able to tell if it is a warranted body block (They were camping anyway) or not a warranted body block (The killer was not idling at the hook, thus they were not face-camping) The game then allows there to not be any collision between survivors.
That would be a fair change IMO. At least then, the person doing the saving understands that they will not be able to body block them.
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Kind of scrapping my original idea for a nerf but what if Borrowed Time worked so that if you unhook within the first, say, 3 seconds that the survivor was hooked then borrowed time doesn't activate. I feel like that would shut down the "follow the killer and unhook in front of their face before they have time to leave and get an easy bt off" tactic. I was also going to suggest for them to change the protection hit distance from 10 meters to maybe 4 meters and then also add in my original idea of protection hits shut off bt, however on top of that first change I just listed maybe that's too much. That would also take away the bodyblocking offensive strategy if they were both implemented though.
I want to try coming up with an idea that is a suitable nerf that doesn't also gut the perk. So maybe if my original idea doesn't work then maybe if they made those changes to protection hits then went with either of those suggestions it would work. My original suggestion would work if they decreased the range of a protection hit.
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If your supposed anti-tunnelling perk gets used to take hits and body block... well, I have to agree it's only going to cause more tunnelling. If the perk to prevent you from doing something is used to prevent you from not doing that thing (i.e. hitting or pursuing someone else), then you're just going to draw attention back to the easier target: the already-injured, possibly nearer-death unhookee.
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So are you guys getting unhooked at all? I seem to die 1st hook every match... 🤣
Also, the problem with nerfing BT is that it only affects soloQ. SWF can and will still plan their saves, the rest of us will just die like that because most people are not risking it to save a random teammate 😕
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I'm pretty sure they can start running. They aren't being blocked, after all
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If you don’t like borrow, I have 2 suggests
Don’t swing
use mad grit
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I think healthy change would be you have no colision with killer while you are under BT effect. This will make it harder for tunneling killers (can't bodyblock someone to wait out BT) and more healthy for non-tunneling killers.
Seriously I am so sick of trying to play fair and go for the rescuer and BT unhooked guy trying to body block me. Makes you want to tunnel that unhooked Survivor.
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Talking specifically about facecamping I believe you're right, but the scenarios I'm talking about aren't facecamping at all.
Post edited by ChurchofPig on0 -
Just remove collision when survivor has bt so you can go through
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BT, DS, DH, Prove and other broken perks they could be nerfed simply by limiting their use to a maximum of one per team 🤷♂️
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With how often killers camp and tunnel it's perfect the way it is, until they find a way to properly punish those two things BT does it's job well, especially when they have a Mori and get obsessed with a player they hooked and won't chase anybody else. Don't know if it's just my luck but happens pretty often in my matches.
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Agreed way too strong. It should now apply break and exhaustion for the rest of the match. Maybe even apply hindred effect.
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It's most definitely not that simple. In an enclosed map, it is very possible that there are no alternate routes that aren't exceedingly time-consuming.
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