Why NOED is unfair. (My opinion)
First off I would like to get something straight if you are new to dbd and you need some time to get on your feet I understand. But if you are experienced and know how to play effectively then NOED is scummy to use. That being said let me say my reasoning as to why it’s unfair, number 1 it’s hidden the entire game, there is no way to know it’s coming except for to guess. (Don’t say “ just do bones” because Why would I do something that doesn’t benefit my team and wastes time especially if there is no NOED)
Comments
-
I would totally use NOED if I had room for it, but there are so many other perks that counter survivor nonsense that I can't really bring myself to use it. Sad.
5 -
Yeah, no it is unfair.
The counterplay to it requires you to basically throw the match as Survivor and I've been running an experiment to prove it.
I think I'm at 190 games, so maybe I'll post stats at 200?
10 -
So... would you be happier if NOED was active during the whole match?
6 -
Yes
1 -
I do not think NoeD is unfair. Most times the answere to NoeD is to "just leave" or "remember the bones". However I get that "do bones" is not your thing, okay.
The interesting thing is you describe things about NoeD that makes it unfair that are true for most survivor perks: "it is hidden" = so is Adrenaline, there is no way to know it's coming = so is Dead Hard, "you have to play suboptimal" = so is Deceisive Strike. Wait...all three apply to Deseisive Strike as well: It is hidden for me as a Killer, I have no way to know it is coming and I have to play suboptimal to evade it.
The thing is, certain perks work around those characteristics and have a huge impact because of them. You could only evade this by showing off everybodys perks at the start of the game to both sides. This however would be pretty boring.
The hidden nature of a perk is fine and NoeD activates when everything is over for the most part. The only Killer where I would consider this especially bad is with Nurse but then again Nurse is bad with every lethality perk in the game.
@Pulsar : Please do so. It would be quit interesting to see what kind of impact this has.
10 -
Why Dead Hard is Unfair
First off I would like to get something straight if you are new to dbd and you need some time to get on your feet I understand. But if you are experienced and know how to play effectively then Dead Hard is scummy to use. That being said let me say my reasoning as to why it’s unfair, number 1 it’s hidden until a survivor has been hit, there is no way to know it’s coming except for to guess. (Don't say "just bait Dead Hard", because Why would i do something that doesn't benefit me and wastes chase time, especially if there is no DH)
It's just a perk dude, a perk over 90, and you can only have 4 at a time. I don't use it because i don't usually get to the EGC, but if i have to, why is that big of a deal? The killer will have 3 perks the whole game, and when the last gen pops, NOED comes into play, if you are experienced as a survivor, you know that it takes 14 seconds to cleanse a totem, and there are only 5, spawning in the same places over and over again. "I don't wanna do bones", then don't complain if there is NOED at the end of the match, when the benefit for the team is to avoid it.
6 -
That 3 seconds it tAkes you to bait a dead hard is the same as taking the time to hunt find and cleanse 5 totems. Okay buddy
0 -
If you honestly dont have enough time to do bones against 90% of the killer roster idk what to say. you can effectively get 3 totems out of the way 20 seconds into the match if survivors spawn next to em or use maps.
7 -
In a really twisted way, it would be more fair. Heck, baseline NOED would be more fair than its current iteration.
The fact that it's declared after its supposed, time-intensive counterplay is part of the problem, since it makes the counterplay a risky investment.
0 -
But you can use clues to know. if the jake is the obsession then he may have DS if that Claud has vaulted a window and didn’t take off then there is the possibility of lithe out the window. If you seen someone take off and there running really fast at the start then boom they have sprint burst.
0 -
Not the same, but it is equivalent i would say. You bait a Dead Hard, if there isn't you are fine, you now have to take the survivor, and bring him to a hook, if there is, the survivor may get to the next loop and you'll lose more time of chase, that the 3 remaining survivor will use in gens, bones, healings... Idk what is the average time of chase, and the average time you waste in downing a survivor and hooking, but i'll guess that it is a bit longer than 14 seconds. If you wanna do only gens, it is fine, maybe your teammates will cleanse some totems, maybe they'll get with the totems spawns in order to cleanse them if there is NOED, i still don't know what is the problem. Just do gens and get out, if there is NOED, get out faster, if there is not NOED get out less faster, is up to you, don't say it is unfair just because you don't like it.
2 -
There is a Obsession in every match even without a corresponding perk. Thus I would have to assume Deceisive Strike every game. Also you can have Deceisive Strike without being the obsession once more forcing me to play around a perk that is not there.
Adrenaline, Deliverance, Unbreakable...I'm all Ears, Undying...both sides have plenty of "hidden" perks that make quit a difference and you will only notice them once it is too late.
I am not saying that NoeD should stay the same. We can talk about it being too strong or having too little counterplay. I am just saying that the problem is not it's hidden nature in activation.
If I had to change it I would say that survivor can see the aura of the totem with NoeD the same way they can with Hex: Plaything. This would make its counterplay more accessible.
3 -
False there is not an obsession every game. yes it’s true the person with DS can not be the obsession but that’s very uncommon let’s be honest. Also the ones that are hidden are not insta win perks like NOED
0 -
And starting the match while being exposed?
Are you sure about that?
3 -
I will give you a tip. Don't cleanse totems, just search for them while traveling to gens / unhooking etc. just normal stuff. This way you don't waste too much time. By this you will find hidden hexes like Devour hope.
And when there is endgame, you see noed, you already know where are totems, so killer is going to get 1 down from it and cost was playing whole game with 3 perks.
How is that unfair? Totems are easy to find on most maps, except indoor those are annoying.
I think it's big mistake to cleanse dull totems, just look for them and remember, if you try to cleanse you are risking that one god knows where totem is going to be noed and you are screwed.
2 -
False: From Patch 4.7 onwards every trial has an obession regardless of loadouts.
So lets be honest, your argument is invalid.
And NoeD is not an instant win. It is more likely to be one secured kill and nothing more.
6 -
It's often just one secured down... that doesn't have to mean a kill, unless that survivor is on dead hook.
2 -
There wasn't an obsession every game, but there is now, i don't know the patch, but every game, whatever the perks, there is an obsession.
2 -
No, they would want it to be active hex whole game. Like Devour hope.
Why just not use Devour hope then? It is probably going to start to work sooner and you can mori. Some ideas are just stupid...
0 -
First off I would like to get something straight if you are new to dbd and you need some time to get on your feet I understand. But if you are experienced and know how to play effectively then DEADHARD is scummy to use. That being said let me say my reasoning as to why it’s unfair, number 1 it’s almost up the entire game, there is no way to know it’s coming except for to guess. (Don’t say “ just pick a killer with INSTA DOWN” because Why would I do something that doesn’t benefit my playstyle and wastes time especially if there is no DEADHARD)
0 -
Alright, I'll try to tag you in it if you want.
I'm basically tracking how many totems get done in a match on average.
Just to see if the counterplay of "do bones" is legitimate or not.
1 -
Actually, yes, I'd like it more if NOED were a Hex that the Killer couldn't see but it was active at the beginning of the trial.
I've only got to cleanse one totem now instead of five.
0 -
Why not just use Devour hope then?
0 -
//
3 -
Double exposed is so broken!
0 -
Double exposed causes Survivors hit to instantly DC
0 -
But what about triple exposed? Tier 3 myers running both
0 -
Yeah, mori is for noobs. DC Lunge is what we need.
0 -
I mean, it'd also drop to just one totem, so it'd be at least cleansable.
But you're missing the point. The whole counterplay is a major investment that massively backfires if the killer turns out not to have NOED. That's a part that's unfair that would technically be fixed if NOED was active from the start.
0 -
You do realize that's 4% speed increase with instant downs and Undying?
0 -
Dear OP,
Boons = blessed in 95% of matches multiple times. blessing vs doing bones = huge time difference
Enter as a killer into match with 4x hex build. How long will they last?
You have more then enough time to do bones while rest are being chased or doing gens. You can use map and perk to be more effective.
As long as you secure that he cannot prop the noed it is useless, otherwise, you have to
gamle with risk
2 -
And how about we just make NoeDs totem visible to survivors once it activates like it is the case for Hex: Plaything. Then survivors could search for it and disarm it in time while still leaving the perk the same as it is now.
0 -
Well, its not like all survivors instantly drop dead once NOED activates. You still have to cleanse only 1 hex perk. So simply wait for the first hit after the gens are completed and if you get exposed, then start searching for that hex. Chances are, it spawns in a ridiculously easy to see spot.
1 -
Is it scummy to use a perk that is in the game: No.
It is hidden the entire game, until is is revealed and active. This is the standard in the game, DS, BT, Dead Hard, Sprint Burst, Deliverance, Head On, Make Your Choice, Overcharge, Dragon's Grip, etc. etc. etc. etc. it is literally how pretty much every single perk works in this game, they don't project themselves.
It is hidden the entire game till the end game, because it is literally not active and equivalent to an empty slot till that point.
Just do bones is not a valid strategy? Well it is, but personally I would suggest: Don't do Bones, Remember where they are and do 1 bone at the end of the game unless you bring perks to do bones. There is nothing more frustrating than not being able to find that last totem that wasn't cleansed and you will antagonize people using boons.
Additionally you can simply open the gates and leave the one person they wacked down with NOED, just because you did all 5 gens doesn't mean that survivors are all entitled to leave at that point. The game hasn't ended and the end-game is part of the game.
Whether or not you like it, the perk is actually fair. It is strong, yet has very clear counter play and a limited time in which it is active.
4 -
Sure. Unless you invested in the alleged counterplay, and all the easy-to-find totems are gone.
Same if someone else did as these forums like to instruct.
And even if no one went for any of them, what if it just godspawned anyway?
0 -
Double exposed is like a double negative. Hit a healthy survivor, and that survivor gains the Endurance status for 60 seconds.👍
0 -
Then you´ll feel bad about not cleansing all 5 totems or taking a perk like Detectives Hunch.
There are 4 survivors and 5 totems. If every single survivor takes out 1 totem and tries to cleanse a second one, then NOED will never be a problem.
3 -
Dull totems serve no purpose besides perks that synergize with them such as undying, boons etc. I believe dull totems should give killers a small boost to breaking gens,pallets, just like fire up except the number decreases when a dull totem gets cleansed. Booning the totem doesn't reduce the boost and retinking a totem with hex pentimento doesn't increase it again. This feature should probably make cleansing a totem not only more important but also reduces a surprise from NOED.
0 -
Don’t get me wrong, NOED is a big crutch…I’m not a fan if using it or versing it.
However, I’m also a realist. Understand the best counter to crutch perks, is crutch perks. NOED is usually used by newer players, or players that need to regain the momentum they lost during the gen-phase of the trial to survivor crutch perks.
How many Dead Hards extended chases? How many BT’s allowed rookies to farm each other off the hook mid-chase and get away with it? How many DSs were used to prevent hooks (yes, this still happens without tunneling, just less popular). How many Deliverances/Kobe, or many slug self-pick up perks allowed survivors to recover? All these action robbing the killer of the momentum he earned, that’s designed to force another survivor to help.
Also, bare in mind…NOED isnt a free down, it’s not a free hook. You still have to be found, chased down…AND M1 only.
If that’s not enough to say NOED is fine…how about the fact that it can be deactivated, even before getting value? You don’t think a killer would spend 15 seconds in a game doing some secondary objective to disable Dead Hard if they could?
Like it or not, NOED is just a killer crutch perk (the ONLY killer crutch perk btw), that is used to regain momentum they already earned in the trial, that was robbed by survivor crutch perks. I don’t like it, most people don’t…but the only people that can legit claim it is “unfair”, are the people never using survivor crutches.
0 -
It will never be a problem if four randos with zero comms coordinate that effort.
Unless, of course, the killer didn't bring NOED, giving them very strong slowdown without needing a perk slot.
0 -
My only real issue with Noed is that it's used by killers that are often completely lost without it. It's absolutely dreadful to have the most boring game in existence and then have it be cranked up to 11 at the end with most of the team just wanting to leave because the guy's obviously going to camp and the map sucks for totem hunting.
I honestly like NOED on killers that have more dedicated endgame builds, it feels like a whole different game. The gen part was the START, now the real game begins.
But 95% of the time NOED gamers have like two slowdowns, something like BBQ or an information perk, maybe a third slowdown, and NOED is just the saviour as they expect to lose most games (Which is a funny notion). Nothing interesting here. They had a loadout that was good and still needed to get value out of NOED. Lame. The worst part is these types also tunnel a lot and only confirm the 'need for noed' by being unable to even kill the tunnelled until gens are done.
0 -
What very strong slowdown? Cleansing a totem takes 14 seconds.
NOED isn´t the issue. Survivors only hugging gens and ignoring everything else is the issue.
6 -
If only there was a perk to take that would show you how many totems remain on the map. Maybe one that helped you find them as well...
0 -
How many Dead Hards extended chases? How many BT’s allowed rookies to farm each other off the hook mid-chase and get away with it? How many DSs were used to prevent hooks (yes, this still happens without tunneling, just less popular). How many Deliverances/Kobe, or many slug self-pick up perks allowed survivors to recover? All these action robbing the killer of the momentum he earned, that’s designed to force another survivor to help.
DH I can understand, the BT bodyblock has to go, but if you're still complaining about DS, you smashed your face into it, and Deliverance is also a terrible one to complain about. It is incredibly unlikely to fire and overall not that helpful outside of swiffers.
Also, bare in mind…NOED isnt a free down, it’s not a free hook. You still have to be found, chased down…AND M1 only.
It's not M1 only. Some special attacks won't work, but a ton of killers can use their power as normal. Spirit and I think Nurse can still smack you coming out of their power to instadown you, for example. Pinhead and Clown can still slow you down and get their slug on.
If that’s not enough to say NOED is fine…how about the fact that it can be deactivated, even before getting value?
This is what a lot of people don't realise: No, it's not possible for NOED to be deactivated without it getting value. Because the counterplay is, most of the time, so involved that it's already getting value from that. And the instadown isn't the only value.
Only if you are immobilised from fifth gen being done to the moment the hex goes down do you not get value out of NOED. If it doesn't pop up at all, you got a ton of value out of it. More than you would've gotten out of Thanatophobia, for example.
0 -
14 x 5 = 70 seconds, not counting time spent looking for them, which can be doubled up if survivors look around areas where another survivor has already cleansed a totem.
Thana gets you 80 seconds if you maintain 4 injuries for all five gens. And Thana costs a perk slot.
Right, we get four perk slots and a variety of perks, not so that we can choose and customise, but so that we can acquire a strict set of perks used to fix bad design and literally never change them.
'Why is the survivor meta so stale!?'
0 -
NoED would be useless if it was active on one totem or visible the entire match.
I mean, come on; how would it be at all useful if Survivors could find it and cleanse it before it ever turned on because it said 'HERE I AM! MAKE SURE YOU CLEANSE ME BEFORE DOING THE LAST GEN'.
It's clear the people asking for such a change have no idea how game balance works. You have to cleanse all 5 totems or wait until it activates because it's not active before the last gen pops. It would be a trash perk if it existed on 1 totem & could be cleansed in 5 seconds, when it does not activate until end game.
Survivors need to stop complaining about NoED. It's fair. It's an end game perk. It does not 'reward failure' or any other half-baked excuse Survivors invent.
It's not active the entire match and, if you could see which totem it's on before end game; it would be useless. It would NEVER see the end of the match except in fringe cases with bad totem placement.
I don't care if people don't want to accept 'Just do bones' as the way to counter it, because that's how you counter it. Saying 'I don't want to hear that' does not invalidate it as the counter.
Stop being lazy and asking for garbage nerfs to a perk that's fine. Just do bones.
Edit: Fixed for typos.
2 -
Make sure you include Blessing totems too.
1 -
I love how in these discussions people try and act like this is a 1v1 game.
70 seconds spread amongst 4 people, specifically the side that chooses how fast the match is going via gen speeds.
16 perk slots for just 1 person to bring something other than BT/DS/DH/COH
Perhaps the meta is so stale because survivors would rather claim something is "unfun" "unfair" or "op" rather than swap a meta perk for one that would help with their specific issues.
It isn't about fixing bad game design, I personally find that once you know the 10 possible spawn points on each map for totems, the perk becomes superfluous, but if remembering 10 places is too much, they gave you a perk.
0 -
This isn´t a single player game, where 1 person has to do everything alone (unless you are the killer). So your calculation is simply wrong.
1 -
The counterplay to it is to not immediately yank the exit gates open when the gens are done and someone was immediately downed, and then to find the totem and cleanse it so you can go for the rescue.
Alternatively, do open the exit gates and leave the match. NOED probably doesn't make a massive difference in survival rates if someone was already getting facecamped in the middle of the map and the entire team is trying to go for the save. Somebody's going to die.
As strange as this might sound to someone who plays survivor (because this is all survivors ever do 90% of the time), the counterplay is emphatically NOT to hurl yourself at the hook with two other people in an attempt to go for the save right off the bat and get the entire team downed at once.
The counterplay is also not to just cleanse totems all match. It's not a worthwhile investment. Instead, consider memorizing where totems are when you see them so that you can come back to them when NOED is in play. That strategy is the bane of my existence when I run NOED; it'll just be gone immediately.
While this brings up some good points, it's not really a fair comparison.
First of all, you do know when Dead Hard is coming. Dead Hard is always coming.
Secondly, DS (and BT) might be a better example. It's as "overpowered" as NOED in that it denies you downs as easily as NOED gives them and encourages you to play suboptimally, but if you choose to ignore BT and DS and just power through them to tunnel one survivor, that might be suboptimal in the short run, but not so much that you're throwing the entire match - you lose a few seconds. It can even be in a killer's best interests to power through them and kill one survivor as early as possible, because if you finish a survivor off within the first couple of gens being popped, the match is already decided.
On the other hand, if survivors just run around doing bones the entire match, they're wasting enough time to give the killer a serious advantage. NOED isn't even in the majority of killer builds, so it's almost always a waste.
I'm not in favor of nerfing NOED, and I'm also not in favor of nerfing survivor second chance perks like DH, BT, and DS. They serve a purpose, and NOED only has a very limited amount of usefulness against a team that knows what they're doing and doesn't just happily kamikaze themselves at every chance to get a post-EGC save (this is almost as bad of a strategy without NOED active as it is with).
If NOED was nerfed or removed, it'd render a lot of endgame builds (and perks) unviable. That's a fun playstyle to experiment with, and it can make some low-tier killers viable. For example:
Yes, it's a risky build, but it pays off more often than not, and I'll be up in arms if it's going anywhere.
1
