General Discussions
General Discussions
I'm so happy people are finally realizing this game is so killer sided
Comments
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Then stop using flawed stats.
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Ok so you're right, he's talking about the game's design. However, I'm still not reading "This game is killer sided" from what he said.
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I have to address a few of these points here:
- The meta. Who cares about the meta tbh? The killer meta has been allowed to change so much because killers constantly get new powerful perks while survivors get like 1 decent perk every 4 character updates. That's not a point in favor of survivors but that shows for favorability to killers instead.
- There were so many bad suggestions for how to nerf DS that would have made the perk absolutely useless. Yes it took a while, but they found a good fit. The other perks you mentioned were easier to come to (and deserved)
- DS and Unbreakable is an overrated combo that only works if a killer decided to slug and tunnel. If you don't slug or tunnel, 2 out of their 4 perks are useless.
- Boons are fine.
- Hit validation has been killer favored almost since the game came out. There have been millions of clips of people vaulting a window and running before getting hit by something because the game was run on the killers connection and as far as they were concerned, they hit you. Now it's based on the server connection and it's balanced but hit validation has literally never been survivor favored.
- Perks. I addressed this earlier but survivors constantly get garbage perks when new survivors are released versus killers who get perks that are actually good enough to replace things they have in their build.
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This man's really out here acting like Mikaela didn't just come out a couple months ago and boons aren't op
Also acting like the meta for killers isn't been
Ruin,undying,pop,tinker for years
And the meta
DS,dh,bt, and iron will for years
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The main reason killer meta has changed so much over the years, because killer meta perks have gotten nerfed much more often than survivor meta perks have.
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Survivors and killers both get decent perks, but the meta for survivors is locked around a core of things that can act as extra lives. It doesn't matter how many general healing, information, generator, skill check, sabo, or item perks are added; they're not going to offer the same universal chance of an extra life, so they won't breach the meta. CoH is so crazy strong it can manage it--because you only need one or two people to have teamwide self-heals and potential superspeed heals, shutting down entire tactics with only one person's perk investment.
It's not that Survivors get bad perks so much as it's nearly impossible to add anything that's not even more gamebreaking that would ever see use outside of meme builds.
And hit validation had a bug with power eating (the PTB is supposed to fix it? I think), which was definitely survivor favoured.
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- Boons are fine: ...I was referring to CoH... you didn't read that part i mentioned about how absurd it is..
- Hit Validation: ...Survivors being greedy with pallets and should've been hit but got saved due to "Validation" would like to have words with you,
- Ds / Unbreak: ...slap that sucker on all 4 survivors and even if you decide to do a mass slug and get pressure, that's a hellova time you're losing on hooking and applyin' pressure, even when they choose the "no mindgame and pre-throw" value, Also high MMR would like to have a word with you..
- The Meta: Killer meta changed atleast 8-9 times in it's lifespan.. Survivor barely changed, Why? Cause it's too great to pass up, Dh? ds? Unbreak? Bt? Sign me the hell up for a glorious time of "Screwing with the killer"
- So many bad suggestions: I've seen alot more posts just LITERALLY saying that ds can't work if you're doing something, I.E what our current ds is..
- Perks: Killer perks would like to also have a word with you... if you took atleast say blight for example, out of like 200 or so killer perks, Only atleast 20-30 perks would be good for him, ...And that's it, some killers benefit greatly with half and or more the perks that're accessible, and then there are other killers... that can barely benefit from over 30..
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I personally disagree because I think there are a lot of (older) strong survivor perks worth running. We'll Make It, Inner Strength, Saboteur, For the People, Head On.
The survivor "meta" perks are literally reactionary perks to tunneling and camping. That's it. It's literally, "If I don't put on DS, I'm going to get hard tunneled. If I don't put on Unbreakable, I'm going to get slugged after I get tunneled because the killer thinks I have DS and is committed to tunneling me, but not brave enough to follow through with their scummy tactics. If I don't bring BT and someone gets camped, I won't be able to save them.
If the campy/tunneling meta didn't exist, no one would run any of those perks because they would be useless outside of those situations. I personally don't run any of them except BT to save people (My main survivor has Saboteur, We'll Make It, For the People, and BT). I'm good for saving other people but I get tunneled and slugged alot because I don't run DS or Unbreakable and I live with it, but after so long, many survivors just say "screw it", tunnel me and see what happens.
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One killer,that is,Otz, have 7k+ on the game,he wins the most because he knows the most,not because the game is killer sided,also,playing "scummy" aka Camping/Tunneling/Slugging helped him,but you don't want killers playing like this right ?
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Ds is more at the bottom of the meta and BT is ran because you can get a free unhook with it. UB was meta only in combo with DS. DH has nothing to do with slugging or camping or tunneling and is meta as well as CoH. The reason thes perks are meta is because they counter effective killer strategies and if those strategies don't happen you can still get value out of the perk.
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That doesn't change anything though.
Tunnelling, camping and slugging are still available tactics. So with that in mind, killers are pretty much in complete control.
Until those strategies are addressed, survivors can't be nerfed.
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And those strategies can't be addressed until something else is buffed or Survivors are nerfed somehow.
As for being in control, Killers can control their own strategy--but they can't control the pace of a game or anything, that's on the Survivors.
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if Survivors has been nerfed quite a bit why are they using the same perks they have always used, also remember now that both boons and the new wiggle mechanic are a thing we might as well throw the nerf idea out the window.
Along with that why shouldn't more killers be Viable right now the only ones that are are nurse and blight, meanwhile all the others (who people have paid for mind you ) have taken hit after hit when it comes to nerfs and most now are passed or on the border of not being worth the money that people spent while survivor are basically pallette swaps with a perk build.
Also, this most recent update shows that killers are or will soon be a side no one wants to play since now there are fewer viability options thanks to the add-on nerfs add the mmr and sbmm issues that are rampant now and you have a recipe for alienating one side of your game that is already lacking in players.
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I always wondered who were those claudettes, trying to blend and crouch behind the rocks and gets sacrificed on third hook in a minute. Happy to meet you!
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SBMM is a thing. Otz was matched with people of the same skill level.
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SBMM is a joke that factors in exclusively kills and escapes and nothing else. That is not a good indicator of skill whatsoever.
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So either SBMM doesn't work and must be scrapped immediately, or killers are indeed OP and should be nerfed immediately. One of the two conclusions can be drawn.
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Well yes, that is why people are calling SBMM useless. It doesn't actually help.
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Furthermore, the BHVR devs themselves have literally said people drastically over the MMR soft cap have to be soft capped back down, because otherwise queues would take literally hours. There was people at 3000+ MMR, but they had to be capped to 1900 because there's no matches at that high of MMR in anything short of hours. So obviously, people like that going against actual 1900 MMR players would stomp them (even assuming MMR was accurate in the slightest). Furthermore, Otz has nearly 8000 hours in the game. That's more than most people would play DBD in their entire lifetime.
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Im leaning more in the SBMM is bullshit camp cause seeing how some people play and still win kinda defeats the whole purpose of it being skill and more it being that they got good RNG
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Well if that's the case then people still need to admit the game is not as survivor sided as it's made out to be, be it for actual balance or SBMM #########.
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It's only survivor sided at extremely high levels of play which most people won't deal with it ever. Otherwise, it's mostly balanced.
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No, no he was not.
SBMM is going exactly how I thought it would.
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No you'll win "sometimes" if you're going by Otz tweet, not "most of the time".
If both side bring their nasty builds, survivors generally have the advantage as only some killers can even bring anything that might compete with what survivors can bring in. A lot of that killer power also comes from add-ons which are limited. A lot of survivors strength comes from perks which can be brought in every game and items which can also be maintained or found.
Overall and generally the game leans towards survivors. from what I understand Otz is just saying don't give up on your matches because there's always a chance, if even a small one. I don't think he's trying to disregard survivors strengths. Its just survivors can mess up or just not be running as sweaty a build as you in that particular game.
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The devs in the dev blog said that if people leave the lobby matchmaking basically ignores mmr to find a replacement. So there's actually no guarantee matches you have are at the same mmr.
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It is an actual balance or SBMM bullshit mainly however it is still survivor sided because if you look at the toolkits and the fact that one side lives and dies by the perks and items while the other has perks,base kit, and addons to factor in its easy to tell that as of right now it is survivor sided.
When you only have 2 killers that are Viable in every skill bracket along with how easy survivor second chance perks can be for lack of a better work exploited it's no wonder people think this way as well.
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What evidence do you have that the game is truly survivor sided? Even tournaments that have no restrictions on them come out to being balanced (slightly killer sided but negligible). Personally I have hardly seen any stats or evidence to show that the game really is survivor sided outside of people just saying that it is based on their own experience which is never a good thing to go off of.
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How about the fact that no one can say that killer can be played without camping and tunneling along with sweaty perks and techniques now?
Maybe the fact that certain killers don't see much play or any at all now such as deathslinger, twins, and trapper might be evident enough for you along with the fact that most people say that the only top-tier killers are nurse and blight which have similar kits factors into that.
What about the fact that if you read and look at how people use survivor perks including using an anti tunneling perk in a way that encourages it and tanking hits, a distancing perk used to tank iframes, and a healing perk that stacks with medkits to allow 2 sec healing times.
The fact that people using tournaments is also wrong cause it's much like saying TF2 tournaments are all skill-based even though the game has so much RNG and some weapons (Much like DBD perks) are busted or have broken tactics and need to be looked at.
The evidence is there and taking one area of the game as evidence shows how laughable the idea that anyone can say the game is killer based when it's not true at all.
Along with the fact that as much as people want to say that the tournaments shows the game is balanced none ever really go into who did they use and what tactics and builds did they use unless you watch the whole thing.
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That tournament you and others cite literally disproves its own point that you are trying to make. 27 of the 30 matches were with S-tier killers. The remaining 3 were all A-tier killers (Pinhead, Oni, Huntress). Pinhead and Oni got completely humiliated. Huntress did okay at 3 kills. Spirit got clowned on for all of her matches except one. Nurse lost most of her games. Blight did mostly good. Furthermore, a heavy RNG factor of that tournament was people trying to guess what the other was going to play/build and then losing/winning when they guess wrong/right.
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Ok so when I say that the game isn't as survivor sided as people say it is I'm including camping and tunneling. Why does it matter if killers have to camp and tunnel it's part of the game and it's what helps them catch up. Honestly I don't believe you only need top tier killers to win, there are a lot of killers that are great that nobody talks about like Hillbilly and Twins.
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Hillbilly and twins suck because of different reasons hillbilly got an overheating mechanic involved that makes him a worse version of Leatherface now and as for twins they have multiple bugs and now no real add-ons to speak of making them as undesirable as deathslinger now.
Also like I said while most killers can be fun only 2 are viable in every skill bracket meaning that unless you play a certain way or have to basically turtle the game it doesn't matter if it helps them catch up or not cause it's not the killer's gameplay that is helping that side win it's tactics that are basically forced on them thanks to ######### balancing by the devs and you also said it yourself.
"It's what help them catch up " why would they need that to catch up if survivors or more specifically their perks and items are not overpowered to an extent
the only time survivors can say the killer is op is if it was all solos with ######### perks but thanks to the fact that swfs and comms exist that possibility is minuscule now cause everybody expects it now.
Also I just wanted to add that this new update almost guaranteed that even more killers are going to be trashed in favor for someone else.
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Maybe it's time to actually critically think about the balance of this game for once.
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Huh? Didn't Otz and Scott JUST advocate for the opposite?
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Well to quote Otz from yesterday: "a Killer can get a ~2k average with a huge handicap if they are willing to play as dirty as you can."
So essentially he's saying the game is balanced if you play dirty which most killers should do anyway.
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How on earth do you get "killer sided" from that?
Post edited by EQWashu on7 -
But he got a 3k average during his experiment. Didn't he?
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Yes he did. That's why the title of this thread says "killer sided". Good killers will win more and average killers will tie. There are enough facts and statistics to prove that the game is generally killer sided.
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Yes. Against survivors that literally played like morons and suicided to someone camping.
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So? Survivors also have to play in ways that aren't very fun for killer if they want to win. That's just the way it is. I don't believe killer is nearly has hard as people make it seem. It's not easy, but it's not that hard either.
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Oh, yeah, my bad. I am just so used to reading survivor sided and it is quite late over here. I totally got it backwards!
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Agreed! I've said this a lot. People will just yell that I'm a survivor main, lol. Killer just isn't as hard as people say.
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I get it. However Scott mentioned to me that he doesn't think the game is generally killer sided so I'm trying to leave him out of it lol
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DH is absolutely fine. If you find my posts comical, then so be it. That doesn't make me a survivor main. I don't recall saying make BT basekit. I did say DS would be much better if it received some buffs to make it better against tunneling (saying make it basekit and work after both unhooks was just a suggestion). They can buff DS in other ways if they want. I still stand by everything I've said. Killers overreact wayyy too much.
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Do people not realize the reason perks like those are not basekit is because you are not supposed to have a basekit counter to those strategies?
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This is a survivor team on the same level as otz
Edit: stupid forum... match starts at 3h48m18s
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Things can change. They are looking at ways to help with camping. Will be interesting to see what they do.
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The only thing the Otz challenge did was get more killers to camp and tunnel the ######### out of survivors to "win" the game.
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No? That just means that you got into game where survivors didn't do same thing :D
It's RNG, it's contest which side is going to bring more nuclear option. That's not killer sided at all.
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The only form of "'camping' they should look into is Bubba camping. Every other killer camping is fine and can (more or less easily) be outplayed even by 4 soloq survivors, if they have just the SLIGHTEST clue at how to play the game.
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Otz actually got stomped by stream snipers doing this. Why do you think he is hiding his lobby now?
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