I'm so happy people are finally realizing this game is so killer sided
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Yes you can remove ds, bt and ub
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At least you've provided an answer. So instead of going by advantage gained, you want to go by the threat of the hex. Also you think 2 totems is fair for stopping a perk from ever having any benefit.
Yes, the killer has a better move speed and insta-down. You by that point should have map knowledge and an understanding of how well that specific killer loops. It's difficult, not impossible, as it should be for a hex perk. It may take a bit of time, but frankly until the gates are opened time is on the survivors' side, and again, you have the option to remove it from activating, or just stop it when it does, so you can decide on a case by case basis. Michael with noed? Fun, but not scary. Blight? Definitely going to make sure there's no dull by the time my team does the last gen.
Devour Hope at full strength is about as powerful, I would say, however the fact that it isn't just locked to after 5 gens are powered, and can be up for a large part of the match itself makes it far more powerful. Yet somehow even with 5 stacks survivors are still able to find the single lit totem to kill it, even through they would have less map knowledge by that time.
Noed isn't "for free". The cost is playing a perk short for most of the match, for a perk that may be prevented from even activating. It's one of the biggest gambles a killer can take with their loadout. (though, to be fair all hex perks are a roll of the dice)
This whole "fault" thing? It's trash. Looking at any perk proccing as someone's "fault" or as a "punishment" or any of that other bullshit is what leads players on all sides to complain about valid game mechanics (like say, being baited into taking a DS hit). So in your example I would say neither is the "fault" of the other. Both are simply players using their perks to try and win the match.
I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I am out here bashing people for using DS, but I'll make you a deal. If you can find a single post where I personally have derided a survivor for using DS or any other perk, I'll edit every noed post I've ever made to say "Firellius was right" if not, then I'd kindly ask you take the friend you keep bringing into this discussion back to Oz, where he can help Dorothy and get himself a brain.
Post edited by AsherFrost on4 -
Playing around isn't removing, and that straw man is getting even moldier than the others presented here. That would be like claiming that you can remove Ruin, just so long as you never get off a gen after you start working on it.
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Undeniably. Low skill anyone is suffering in this game, thanks to nonfunctioning SBMM.
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And this is what I get for using a phone with auto correct to try and explain issues it sometimes acts up so let's see what I can make from this.
First off you might as well just say go ahead and bleed people out cause first off since the mindset people have is that everyone uses ds so slugging is warranted also like I said why then should people be allowed to do this bt and ds make it so it's a lost safer to do risky tactics atm and it shouldn't be allowing more than one person to swarm a hook in the first place.
Secondly this was a bad part on wording on my end what I ment to say is that instead of trying to hide the scratch marks and hide they just run to a locker and hide making it obvious as to where they are. However, the logic you proposed make no sense. In your words then I guess the killer should just slug again or just leave them alone even though they ######### up.
Third both the fact you said this was biased and what you try to defend doesn't help your case. First off, what I said for noed the usual arguments for it being over powered is a joke since boons exist and the fact that some maps make the placement of totems terrible doesn't help either. Yet, the main issue I have is the same I said to another, as of right now the biggest issue for boons right now is the mechanic itself as long as that exist you can tweak and nerf however you like perk wise, but it will accomplish nothing due to how boons are as a whole. And yes while dull totems don't effect noed until it's activated it is still a one and done risk vs reward perk unlike boons which can be reused over and over again.
And yes ds does reward survivor mistakes just like most meta now since most of them do not reward survivors for chases, gens and such instead a good chunk of the most used perks that survivors use reward them for getting caught or getting hit which right now they might as well be called safety nets because the level of forgiveness is getting more and more apparent as time goes on.
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How exactly does DS reward survivors for their mistakes when it punishes killers for tunneling??
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It rewards them for losing the third chase with a stun.
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I don't think anyone but you and perhaps one more person thinks that. Many says Otz could be the best killer player in this game, and there are probably houndreds of survivor teams that can 4 man escape against him. The best players of Nurse are probably the only ones that could compete with survivors.
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Because they get caught and right now with how survivors tend to be at times they don't do a good job at either hiding or since constantly running is something all survivors do they make it too obvious for the killer location wise.
You are right on one thing ds was ment to be a tunneling perk. So, then why then do survivors who have it tend to use it in ways that encourage it insinstead. That's the reason I say it rewards bad play because thanks to how long the timer is other than slugging and waiting for 30 seconds or so the killer has no real way to punish the bad play.
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Their position is declared to the killer the moment they come off the hook! What are they supposed to do against that?
'They got caught', yeah, big ######### whoop when the killer knows their exact location. Who wouldn't be able to catch that?
'Don't run then!' But then how do I make distance from the killer? They still know where the survivor is if you don't leave tracks, because they know the survivor can't be far. All they need to do is sweep the area and just kill the survivor when they inevitably find them.
You are right on one thing ds was ment to be a tunneling perk. So, then why then do survivors who have it tend to use it in ways that encourage it insinstead.
Because outside of an aggressive use, the perk is dead weight in almost all cases. Is that your balancing metric? Should survivor perks just be blank slots?
That's the reason I say it rewards bad play because thanks to how long the timer is other than slugging and waiting for 30 seconds or so the killer has no real way to punish the bad play.
You're getting a free down. Quit whining. They wanna waste half a minute lying on the floor, helpless, that's to YOUR benefit. You have no right to just slam your face into that perk and demand that it bends for you. Survivor perks are supposed to help survivors, not killers. You argument here legitimately comes down to "I should be able to fully ignore this perk".
It may take a bit of time, but frankly until the gates are opened time is on the survivors' side
That depends on the killer's performance. Put out enough pressure and time absolutely isn't on survivors' side.
Blight? Definitely going to make sure there's no dull by the time my team does the last gen.
Case in point. A good blight is definitely going to punish you for wasting time on five dulls on the off chance that he's carrying NOED. Remember: You're not guaranteed any return on investment for clearing 5, and if you miss one, you get even less.
Devour Hope at full strength is about as powerful, I would say, however the fact that it isn't just locked to after 5 gens are powered, and can be up for a large part of the match itself makes it far more powerful. Yet somehow even with 5 stacks survivors are still able to find the single lit totem to kill it, even through they would have less map knowledge by that time.
Devour Hope is not up for most of the game either, though, and it can be demolished with just one totem, before it becomes a problem, and there's a near guaranteed return on investment for doing so. It's much, much, MUCH easier to find one hex totem than to find all five dulls, especially in regards to the solo/swiffer dichotomy. You can easily clear a single hex by yourself. Doing five dulls by yourself is going to seriously set your team back, if you even succeed.
The cost is playing a perk short for most of the match, for a perk that may be prevented from even activating.
This is something that people need to realise too: The only way you don't get any value out of NOED is
A) It gets cleansed the moment it comes online
OR
B) The fifth gen is never completed.
If the fifth gen pops and NOED doesn't fire? You got about as much value as you could've gotten had all four survivors run No Mither into your Thanatophobia.
It is almost impossible to not get value out of NOED. The value will differ, sure, but you're going to get something out of it. If it doesn't fire, it slowed the survivors down about as much as a sixth gen would've. If it does fire, you get the movespeed boost. And if you get a hit on a healthy target before they cleanse it, you got the instadown.
At worst, it's a single exposed down (Haunted Grounds, anyone?), at best, it can turn a dead loss into a 4K.
NOED is a strong perk with unfair counterplay.
I'm not sure where you are getting the idea that I am out here bashing people for using DS
When did I say you did?
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"But again, that is somehow always the survivors' fault, but killers aren't responsible when they faceplant their way into a DS proc."
Pretty much there. Drawing a comparison in your reply to me that had nothing to do with anything I have said.
Yes there is always some benefit, ideally all perks should offer at least a little benefit in the match, that's why you bring perks. That doesn't make it op.
"At worst, it's a single exposed down (Haunted Grounds, anyone?), at best, it can turn a dead loss into a 4K."
1. Not quite haunted grounds. More like getting to borrow Billy's saw for a single hit. The biggest benefit of haunted grounds is the fear it creates.
2. Literally any killer has the capacity to snowball against an uncoordinated or unskilled team. That's not unique to noed at all.
"If the fifth gen pops and NOED doesn't fire? You got about as much value as you could've gotten had all four survivors run No Mither into your Thanatophobia."
I would love to see the math backing that assertion up.
"It's much, much, MUCH easier to find one hex totem than to find all five dulls, especially in regards to the solo/swiffer dichotomy. You can easily clear a single hex by yourself. Doing five dulls by yourself is going to seriously set your team back, if you even succeed."
Indeed it is. However removing all 5 does something that you can do to no other perk, completely stop it from activating. Otherwise it's still a single totem to dispell, just like devour. Shouldn't it be much easier to dispell a perk than it is to keep it from activating at all? And let's be honest, with the boon meta, is there ever a match that has 5 dulls? Because in every game I've played as survivor since the release of the witch, it's been 2-3 booned totems per game, meaning that instead of the "much much harder task" of removing 5 totems to stop a perk from activating, you really only need to do 2-3 at most.
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Never has been or will be killer sided.
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Pretty much there. Drawing a comparison in your reply to me that had nothing to do with anything I have said.
That is the argument you stepped in on. I brought up DS vs NOED to illustrate the point of how the forums confer all autonomy to only the survivors.
Yes there is always some benefit, ideally all perks should offer at least a little benefit in the match, that's why you bring perks. That doesn't make it op.
That's a motte and bailey. You stated that NOED can be stopped before it activates, I point out how that doesn't keep it from having a hefty impact on the game.
This in contrast to DS, which has virtually no impact if you counterplay it.
1. Not quite haunted grounds. More like getting to borrow Billy's saw for a single hit. The biggest benefit of haunted grounds is the fear it creates.
How is that 'fear' a relevant benefit that NOED doesn't also offer? You're not scaring any survivors that you're not near when Haunted Grounds pops, but you are scaring survivors all over the map when you slug someone with NOED.
2. Literally any killer has the capacity to snowball against an uncoordinated or unskilled team. That's not unique to noed at all.
Yes, congrats. But NOED still reduces the requirement for such a play by more than half.
I would love to see the math backing that assertion up.
Sure.
Thanatophobia slows down repair speeds by, at max, 20%. Gens take 80 seconds to complete. 5 x 80 = 400. 20% of 400 is 80. Thanatophobia will buy you 80 seconds here.
Totems take 14 seconds to destroy. 5 x 14 = 70. NOED bought you 70 seconds here.
The difference is only 10 seconds, except Thanatophobia requires all survivors to be injured, all the time, while NOED doesn't even need to be equipped to potentially get this benefit. This is also not counting the time it takes for the survivors to actually find the totems. Any search time will likely push NOED over 70 seconds, and in a solo team, it could easily take even longer as survivors cannot coordinate with each other, making searches take longer and possibly costing search time after all five totems are already done anyway.
However removing all 5 does something that you can do to no other perk, completely stop it from activating.
No, it turns NOED from the strongest hex perk in the game into a very competitive slowdown perk. And that's assuming the killer actually does have NOED, because remember: You need to commit to that quintuple cleanse -before- NOED is declared, meaning NOED can fulfil this slowdown role -without being equipped at all-.
And on top of that, it is absolutely not unique in being the only perk that you can completely stop from activating. DS can easily never activate. Deliverance can easily never activate. Red Herring can easily offer no value. Flashbang can easily offer no value. Devour Hope can go down before it gets tokens. Ruin can go down before it regresses a single gen. Huntress' Lullaby can go down without gaining tokens, or it can simply fail to throw a survivor off.
NOED is basically the only perk you CAN'T stop from having an impact.
Which feeds into the main argument I was making: The forums have an attitude where, if the killer wins, the survivors just sucked, but if the survivors win, it's not because the killer sucked, it's because survivors are OP.
DS vs. NOED shows this. It's one of the most counterplayable perks being heralded as a part of why survivors are OP, versus the least counterplayable perk that survivors are often held fully responsible for if it fires.
Killer autonomy is entirely disregarded and their skill is not considered. The game is survivor sided because 'Look at tournament play!', but Otz consistently winning matches on a perkless build with a 30 second AFK timer at the start is met with 'you can't set that standard for killer players, that's way too high skill'.
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Yea but when the best argument is "SWF groups so toxic" when it comes to killers trying to make the argument that its not in their favor, thats not really evidence. In fact its just annoying at this point that SWF complaints are literally their best argument as to why they think its not in their favor. I've been solo queing all day to use up these envelopes before the event is over. Guess how many SWF teams I saw today? 1... and everyone died.
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1. Still trying to pretend any current match has 5 dull totems? And even with that there's still a 1/8th difference. When you look at the 2-3 that are actually likely, it's 28-32 seconds... Hardly a "hefty" impact. As far as time searching, you're going to count that for totems but not gens? Really? Both have a limited number of physical places they can spawn, and are usually pretty close to each other.
2. Killers have 4 perks, all of which can be seen by the survivors. I don't buy the argument that people always think the killer may have noed. Maybe in the first few seconds, but once you've seen gens blocked at the beginning of the match (CI) killed 2 lit totems (ruin, undying) and saw the killer head straight for a teammate after getting a hook (bbq) it's plain as day they don't have a 5th perk. (And that's just using the build I've been playing against pretty much consistently for the last few days)
3. Thats why it can be completely removed. If you think the killer has it, you have the option (in addition to dispelling as you would any hex) to remove it before the game starts. You can't do that with DS. As no matter what, you have to play around it to keep it from activating, and it's far more difficult to work out what perks each survivor has until they actually use it. (Not to mention just a bit harder to keep track of 16 perks than it is 4.)
4. As far as deliverance goes, the only way any killer is stopping that is through blind luck in hooking the survivor with it first, even though they have literally no way to tell who that is. Red Herring? Unable to be stopped. Sure, it may not work (if you mis-time it and hit it while the killer sees another survivor, or get one that's given up on gen defense entirely), but then, noed may pop and the killer unable to find a single survivor until the single totem it's on is snuffed. (Happened twice just last night in survivor matches I played, once against a trapper, the other against Freddy) Flashbang? Literally as good as your aim (assuming no lightborn, just as we've assumed you're trying to cleanse all dull totems without the perk specifically designed to help that endeavor) and there's no way Any killer can stop you from making grenades, outside of playing such great 7 point defense that you never get to touch a gen. I will grant that both hex perks you mentioned can in fact be found and removed before serious gain is given, but then since you have stated dispelling dulls is "hefty impact" I don't see how you claim dispelling lit totems (which literally takes longer per totem) isn't any impact at all. Like with time searching for gens, it seems the clock only moves when you say it does.
5. The us vs them nonsense you keep putting in? Not really addressing that. For some reason it seems you are really stuck on DS, which I have not seen a serious argument against as a perk since it was last reworked. (Are you sure you don't mean DH?) The "forum is just killer sided" arguments don't do you any favors either, as that's the same line of BS our most... Infamous forum members consistently play on to bait. Anyone trying to use a professional streamer playing against randoms to prove anything is just wrong. All it shows is that otz is playing Dbd. (We don't even know for sure they are all legit matches, he's an entertainer, not a pro gamer, and there's literally no oversight of any of his matches)
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Tournaments don't allow people to bring 4 dead hards and the sweatiest stuff like normal matches, a lot of maps are banned as well. You put a comp team or strong SWF using whatever they want in a pub match and they will decimate lol its not even close. The only thing tournaments show is, even with a sh*tload of restrictions, the game is not even close to balanced.
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YIKES putting words on people's mouth, learn some basic interpretation before you try to use content creators who are not even saying what you think to fit your agenda dude
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Tourney just shows how this game is balanced around camping and tunneling, most notably camping.
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Still trying to pretend any current match has 5 dull totems?
It still takes 14 seconds for every one of those 5 totems. Boons definitely make things much better on NOED, since they repay some of the investment in the counter so you don't run the risk of cleansing 5 for zero gain, but they're perks of their own accord and that needs to be taken into account as well.
As far as time searching, you're going to count that for totems but not gens? Really? Both have a limited number of physical places they can spawn, and are usually pretty close to each other.
I do hope you're not going to try and argue that it's just as hard to find gens as it is to find totems. And you bring up the limited number of physical places: Gens have two extra.
Killers have 4 perks, all of which can be seen by the survivors
No. Unless the killer has hard identifiers on all four of their perks and you, personally, happen to observe ALL of those identifiers, you don't know whether or not they have NOED.
and saw the killer head straight for a teammate after getting a hook (bbq)
Even that is nothing more than an educated guess because the killer could just be using their gamesense to make their own educated guesses. BBQ & Chili can only be recognised by Distortion and Object of Obsession, nothing else hard confirms BBQ & Chili.
There's plenty of perks that aren't identifiable, and even if they are, you still need to see that yourself or be in a swiffer and have a teammate confirm that perk to you. The killer might've blocked five windows with Bamboozle over the course of the match, but if you never witnessed them do it, you still have no way to know he doesn't have NOED.
Thats why it can be completely removed. If you think the killer has it, you have the option (in addition to dispelling as you would any hex) to remove it before the game starts.
But doing so requires a time investment that is equivalent to other slowdown perks, and it's a massive gamble because if the killer does -not- have NOED, you just wasted a ton of time. And the slightest imperfection will see your effort go unrewarded, too.
As no matter what, you have to play around it to keep it from activating
Yes, but this counterplay consists of -not pressing a button-, as opposed to spending 70 seconds minimum to root it out.
As far as deliverance goes, the only way any killer is stopping that is through blind luck in hooking the survivor with it first, even though they have literally no way to tell who that is.
But that does allow the perk to literally never fire, contrary to what you said about NOED being the only perk to do that.
Red Herring? Unable to be stopped. Sure, it may not work, but then, noed may pop and the killer unable to find a single survivor until the single totem it's on is snuffed.
Even then, NOED gives a speed boost, so it always gives at least -some- value. And when there's only three gens left, the chances of not finding a survivor are pretty slim, since there's very few objective locations left for the survivors. It's one of three gens, then one of two gates.
It is technically possible for the totem to go down the moment it goes live (Had that happen once), but that goes back down to being RNG based, much like Deliverance.
Flashbang? Literally as good as your aim
And the killer's ability to look away for a second.
For some reason it seems you are really stuck on DS, which I have not seen a serious argument against as a perk since it was last reworked.
The post you responded to was in response to someone making a legitimate complaint about DS. And it's not the only one. It is still being named in the same breath as DH, with the same connotation of a 'second chance perk'. The principle of that is the crux of my argument: Killer autonomy is disregarded.
Anyone trying to use a professional streamer playing against randoms to prove anything is just wrong.
That can certainly be argued. However, the ongoing insistence that the game is some degree of survivor-sided falls on even shakier support, but has long gone uncontested. Otz is actually one of the few people to argue against it, the video that caused this thread is just the fuse to the powderkeg.
The fact that the notion that the game is survivor-sided has survived for as long as it did without any discernible, concrete evidence to support it, strongly suggests a bias in the community.
That is all.
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Wanna see objective evidence?
que time, in most region there is no time of the day killer is faster, it shows how most people can't have fun in killer games.
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That's funny, the 'objective evidence' showed me that queue length fluctuated throughout the day, and that morning/early afternoon queues were faster for survivor than killer, which would reverse by the end of the day.
It couldn't be because an asymmetrical PvP game built on a 1v4 system has fluctuations in population based on time of day, could it?
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NOED is a strong perk with unfair counterplay.
Oh no! Being able to TURN OFF AN ENTIRE PERK by doing 5 or 1 totem is SOOOOO UNFAIR! 😥
Survivors won't be happy until they remove anything that can kill them. This statement basically proves that. Clearly, having to do totems is 'unfair' because Survivors want to lick gens and twerk out the exit in sub-5 minutes. Anything that stops the genrush is just automatically 'unfair'. Boo-hoo. 😭
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Thanks for your insightful contribution, I guess?
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Sorry but I'm tired of seeing the same bullshit almost once a day:
'It rewards failure!'
No, it does not. The Killer has not failed just because 5 gens pop.
'The Killer has basically lost!'
No, he has not. He has not lost just because 5 gens pop.
'Doing 5 gens is unfair!'
The ENTIRE POINT of the perk is to get Survivors OFF OF GENS. It's an anti-'genrush' perk. Note: I put 'genrush' in quotes because there is no such thing; 'genrushing' is Survivors playing their goal efficiently. But the term serves for my point; It exists to slow down gen speeds by forcing Survivors to look for totems.
It's a risk vs reward:
- You risk cleansing totems. Either your risk pays off & you stop NoED before it happens. Or you do gens and get smacked.
- Alternatively: You risk doing totems, and you wasted time because the Killer never had NoED.
This perk literally has the most Survivor interaction of any Killer perk, in that they decide if it even activates, and have to be aware of it's threat in every match.
And all Survivors can do is whine and snivel that 'doing totems is unfaiiiiiiir!' because they want to lick gens, flashlight-clicky, and twerk out the exit gates ASAP. So they invent lies and bullshit fail-state scenarios in order to push this false narrative that NoED is somehow this Uber Perk that gets 4Ks automatically when it activates.
But I don't see NoED teleporting Survivors onto hooks. I don't see it giving Killers aura-reading or Killer Instinct. So I don't get how Survivors can gurgle 'It gives FREE KILLS!' and expect anyone even slightly intelligent to believe them.
It's all bullshit and lies screamed every day until they actually start to believe their own false narrative, and then they scream LOUDER because they went from 'lazy liar' to 'It actually gives free kills! Just don't ask how!'
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The ENTIRE POINT of the perk is to get Survivors OFF OF GENS. It's an anti-'genrush' perk. Note: I put 'genrush' in quotes because there is no such thing; 'genrushing' is Survivors playing their goal efficiently. But the term serves for my point; It exists to slow down gen speeds by forcing Survivors to look for totems.
That is precisely why NOED is such a dumpsterfire of gamedesign.
It's a risk vs reward
You risk cleansing totems. Either your risk pays off & you stop NoED before it happens. Or you do gens and get smacked.
Alternatively: You risk doing totems, and you wasted time because the Killer never had NoED.
And that is why. The counterplay is an investment of five totems against no guaranteed reward. As a coordinated effort, this might work, but survivors don't get those tools as baseline, so that's out of the window already. This gets compounded by the fact that it is a lengthy process and only full, 100% completion offers ANY benefit, and then ONLY if the killer actually did bring this perk, which survivors have no way of telling. Then, even if you do manage to get all totems done against a killer who DOES have NOED, as mentioned before, it competes with Thanatophobia for a slow-down perk.
And in theory that is all fine...
But the fact that it's 100% risk with little to no chance for an actual reward, means the 'counterplay' is massively disproportionate.
And then you have to remember the way it works if you fail to get all five totems: It will find that last totem and take that one, which means if you cleansed all the totems you COULD find, all you accomplished was both wasting time AND guaranteeing that the perk is shunted into the totem you CAN'T find. In which case your effort is rewarded by making the perk a bigger problem than it would've been if you hadn't touched -any- totem.
Which, in short, means that NOED actively discourages the cleansing of dull totems.
Legitimately, the perk would be considerably more fair if it and a totem counter were baseline. Because then it -actually- is in the survivors' control.
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If It and a totem counter were baseline; It would NEVER see endgame play. Ever.
Survivors would ALWAYS know it was in play. You may as well just make 'Cleanse 5 totems' a requirement for exiting through the gates, at that point, because NoED would not exist by the time 5th gen pops.
I can get behind 'have a totem counter' be baseline if you're not in a SWF. It helps branch the massive gulf between SWF and SoloQ.
But the POINT of NoED is not knowing if it exists. This way; Survivors can possibly be punished if they 'genrush'. You make NoED 100% exists in every match and, sure, Gens slow down slightly, but it would NEVER see end-game. Ever.
There would be no more risk vs reward. No more punishment for making the wrong call because the risk has been removed to make Survivors happy. It goes from 'Do they have NoED? Can I pound this gen?' to 'Time to 99% the last 3 gens, then totem hunt! Because they always have NoED!'
It's more hand-holding bullshit meant to make Survivors happy while kicking Killers in the balls. It removes the threat of NoED, and any chance of it making end-game at all. Because Survivors don't like making bad calls, IE: Deciding to 'genrush' & getting slapped by NoED.
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Yeah game is so killer sided,playing killer is so fun.
/s
Game shouldn't be either sided,it should be fun for both sides.
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"The ENTIRE POINT of the perk is to get Survivors OFF OF GENS."
"If It and a totem counter were baseline; It would NEVER see endgame play. Ever."
So you're saying it would succeed at the thing that is, according to you, 'its entire point', and you somehow also paint this as a bad thing.
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The 'bad thing' is that it's EFFECT would be useless. May as well rewrite the perk to say 'Survivors can't open the exit gates unless they cleanse all 5 gens'. Because it's effect would be non-existent, and only exist as a big enough threat to force Survivors to do bones.
Give SOloQ a totem counter. I agree with this.
But NoED HAS to stay an unknown threat or else it counters itself. It cannot be a known factor in every match, or Survivors would know to totem hunt before popping that 5th gen. If you can't understand this; either you should not be talking about perk balance, or you're ignoring it to fit your arguments.
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But then the 'entire point' -isn't- to pull survivors off of gens, is it?
Sure, if you want to keep your instadowns, it won't fix it, but it would at least be fair. What you are proposing is a combination of both: You want it to continue having an unfair counterplay -in addition- to a really strong effect if/when it pops.
You want it to stay a gamble, so that killers can benefit from the perk -without having to equip it-.
If you can't understand this; either you should not be talking about perk balance, or you're ignoring it to fit your arguments.
I absolutely understand the impact. Point is: I don't care. And two posts ago, neither did you, because you described the perk's 'entire point' as being 'to get survivors OFF GENS'.
Have it be a hex perk for instadowns and speed boost? Fine.
Have it be a slowdown perk on par with a permanently maxed out Thanatophobia? Fine.
Driving its counterplay on RNG and creating a hardline 'damned if you do, damned if you don't? Not fine.
You want it to be a gamble, so it can stay out of survivor control, which feeds back to my original argument about how this forum treats killer autonomy vs. survivor autonomy.
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You want it to stay a gamble, so that killers can benefit from the perk -without having to equip it-.
What? I'm the one saying it should NOT be base-kit, because that ruins now knowing if the Killer has it or not! I'm the one wanting it to stay a perk!
You said:
the perk would be considerably more fair if it and a totem counter were baseline
Implying you want NoED to be baseline alongside a count of totems still in a match.
I don't. Making NoED baseline means it never sees end-game, because Survivors will ALWAYS know it exists. Survivors won't pop the 5th gen until they're sure all totems have popped. At that point; what is the point of NoED's power? If it can't be used; why does it exist as it does?
At that point; you could remove it and just say 'All 5 totems must be cleansed along with 5 gens done, or Survivors are Exposed', because NoED would NEVER pop.
You seem to be ignoring that, for NoED to BE NoED; it needs to be UNKNOWN, so Survivors can make mistakes.
Instead, you demand Survivors have their hands held with yet ANOTHER bullshit mechanic, and the ability to make mistake involving NoED MUST be removed, because Survivors making mistakes the Killer can use is bad, apparently?
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You seem to be ignoring that, for NoED to BE NoED; it needs to be UNKNOWN, so Survivors can make mistakes.
Instead, you demand Survivors have their hands held with yet ANOTHER bullshit mechanic, and the ability to make mistake involving NoED MUST be removed, because Survivors making mistakes the Killer can use is bad, apparently?
This is the exact point.
Objectively, PURELY objectively, undeniably, doing five totems is the bad choice unless the killer is so absolutely garbo that the survivors have all the time in the world.
And you are labelling it as 'the survivors making mistakes'.
It's NOT a mistake. It's just that the counterplay to NOED is such an absolute dumpsterfire tier of risk/reward ratio that it is just flat out tactically bad decision-making to commit to it. But SOMEHOW, you arrive at the conclusion that 'the survivors made a mistake'.
That is the part that needs to go. It needs to ACTUALLY be a mistake if the survivors let it pop, and you can't have that happen if there's a very real chance that the counterplay has you torpedoing your own team for literally zero reward.
It can't be a gamble.
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That depends entirely on RNG and the killer's performance, don't you think?
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doing five totems is the bad choice unless the killer is so absolutely garbo that the survivors have all the time in the world.
Or, and the one thing you and every Survivor ignores; you can keep an eye on totems and see if one lights up. Then, you only have to do ONE totem! Wow!
But you, and every Survivor, keep acting like this idea does not exist and all 4 Survivors are expecting to do 5 totems each. Because that sounds so much harder than 'Do 1 totem each, plus 1 more.' or 'Keep an eye on totems & see if one lights up'.
Funny thing is; Survivors 'dont have time to do 5 totems', ever, but sure as hell have time to re-bless totems 50000000 times to get Circle of Healing to work. Almost like it's a lie to demand changes/nerfs to NoED instead of getting off of gens to counter a Killer perk.
Face it; your idea ruins NoED, and it's designed to ruin NoED. You're making the same bad faith argument of 'Doing 5 totems is SOOO HARD!' as if one person has to do all 5. Because it's easier to cry to nerf NoED while lying that it's 'For the health of the game' instead of getting off gens when you see a totem.
NoED is fine. Get off gens. It does not need a change or lazy-arse hand-holding nerf that benefits Survivors under the same bullshit warcry every Survivor uses 'It's for the health of the game!'. 99% of the time; 'The health of the game' = 'The enjoyment of Survivors'.
NoED is fine. Do bones. Survivors don't deserve to know it exists just because they want the game to spoon-feed them information they're too lazy to think about.
The only part I agree with, with a caveat: Anyone NOT in an SWF should have a totem count on screen. Or have one pop up when they clean a totem. This way, they know if totems have been worked on when they contribute to totems being worked on.
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Or, and the one thing you and every Survivor ignores; you can keep an eye on totems and see if one lights up. Then, you only have to do ONE totem! Wow!
Oh no, I don't ignore that. But everyone else does when they say it's the survivors' mistake for letting NOED pop!
And even then it's not a perfect solution because the totem is assigned at complete random, making the perk RNG. 'But that goes for every Hex!', and none of them grant a persistent 4% movespeed boost + instadown. Proportionality is a thing.
4 Survivors are expecting to do 5 totems each. Because that sounds so much harder than 'Do 1 totem each, plus 1 more.'
Good luck coordinating that in solo queue. Remember: No totem counter! No communication! You'll just have to guess that your teammates all did one and no more than that, or else you're gonna keep looking for totem number 5 which is actually already gone, or you get on gens after you did what ever killer main shouts down your face and 'did your bones' only to find that you were the only one to do bones!
Nah lad, great design.
Funny thing is; Survivors 'dont have time to do 5 totems', ever, but sure as hell have time to re-bless totems 50000000 times to get Circle of Healing to work. Almost like it's a lie to demand changes/nerfs to NoED instead of getting off of gens to counter a Killer perk.
Another smoothbrained killer main take: "They can do one totem with the ability to recuperate their time by either benefiting off the perk or having the killer expend time to counterplay it, so they can absolutely do five totems for zero gain!"
It's almost as dumb as 'Hexes should be relightable because boons are'.
Face it; your idea ruins NoED, and it's designed to ruin NoED.
By 'ruin', you mean making it actually a consistent game mechanism and giving it a fairer counterplay while buffing killers on the side. But that ain't good enough for you, you want survivors to be at the mercy of RNG while also calling it a 'mistake' if it fires.
You're making the same bad faith argument of 'Doing 5 totems is SOOO HARD!' as if one person has to do all 5.
It's solo play. If you aren't doing all five, you're not countering NOED. The default doesn't allow any communication. Even if everyone tried to do their bit, they'd just as easily risk wasting extra time.
Because it's easier to cry to nerf NoED while lying that it's 'For the health of the game' instead of getting off gens when you see a totem.
You get off a gen to cleanse a totem, you're throwing the match. Because you are actively making sure that IF NOED does spawn, it doesn't spawn right next to you.
You still haven't wrapped your head around this, have you?
NoED is fine. Get off gens.
You want NOED to get people to cleanse totems, make it baseline. Layer upon layer of risk to 'doing bones' just ensures that it's better not to.
I would ask you to stop centering your entire perspective on a baseline principle of 'the survivor is at fault', but hey, I think your username says enough about the chances of that happening.
There's no point in continuing this discussion because you are absolutely too stuck in your anti-survivor mindset.
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You're right but it's a pipe dream for that.
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Yeah when did I say they shouldn't run? I never said they shouldn't run what I am saying is that survivors should be punished for being obvious.
I know they get the notice right after hook that's why bt exist yet you expect me to accept that if a survivor ######### up that they should keep their perk because of fuckups that caused.
Also for one let me ask you this since apparently it's considered "whining" if a survivor runs to a spot and gets in a situation where they get caught what do you suppose the does cause from what you decided to answer you want to say the choice is either eat the ds or ignore them maybe instead of considering it whining maybe actually figure why I'm saying this instead of just jumping to "KiLLer waNt 4K" like most who don't accept people saying certain things.
Also for ds I said flat out I understand what it is meant for however much like I asked why should it be used in ways that encourage it and instead you decided to basically say that ds should be used in ways to encourage it because it is for aggressive play which the perk was not made to do.
And lastly yes I do have the moniker for survivor complaints boiling down to "don't get caught" because the game atm fluctuates on how the survivors play now. So IMO right now camping ,tunneling, slugging are now viable thanks to both the balance and survivors.
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Right except there's more to it than just "######### swfs " basically.
For one like I said for as much as people want to uses a streamer or a dbdtubers word as gospel or atleast use it as evidence to say "the game is not survivor sided" or "the game is balanced" it cannot be used as much as they want it to be. Unfortunately atm the people who are trying to use this as proof are seemingly the same kind of people who would say ff13 is fun after playing hours upon hours Into the game cause that's when the fun (or in this game's case balance) starts to appear. This is a game where you can spend hundreds of hours playing killer and due to one update or one patch all of it can be thrown away and you have to start anew trying to catch up again while survivors do not have to deal with it as much because all survivors are the same.
First off and many others have said it but these people have basically everything unlocked for killers which only a percent of players do. And if it wasn't for the MMR ######### matchmaking, it wouldn't be as bad of a problem as it is. And maybe there wouldn't be so many people flat out saying "######### mmr, why deep this?" Along with now I can almost guarantee it being also an issue because the devs used it as an excuse to nerf an already unpopular killer to an almost useless killer.
Along with that many can agree that high mmr is survivor sided and yes while I can agree not every high mmr player is a god at the game, it does not matter when taking into account how matchmaking prioritizes players making it a gamble basically on if a match will be balanced, a squash match for you or a squash match for the opponent. Which if this game had better match making or a lobby system like say smash 4 it could potentially become more the first instead of the other two.
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Yeah when did I say they shouldn't run? I never said they shouldn't run what I am saying is that survivors should be punished for being obvious.
'Being obvious'. IE: The killer getting a notification when you get pulled off the hook and then having to run away with bright red marks showing where you went.
I know they get the notice right after hook that's why bt exist yet you expect me to accept that if a survivor ######### up that they should keep their perk because of fuckups that caused.
Again 'survivor ######### up'. What are you supposed to do when the killer comes charging in, two seconds after you've been pulled off the hook? You're still injured, you're easily traceable and the killer knows exactly when you get off the hook.
Not to mention that you're casually throwing in another perk, and this one isn't even in the unhooked survivor's control!
cause from what you decided to answer you want to say the choice is either eat the ds or ignore them
Or, option 3: SLUG THEM. They ain't helping their team when they're tuckered out on the ground, and they haven't been helping their team since they got pulled off the hook. They've practically taken themselves out of the fight for a full minute, and you got extra pressure all that time.
Also for ds I said flat out I understand what it is meant for however much like I asked why should it be used in ways that encourage it and instead you decided to basically say that ds should be used in ways to encourage it because it is for aggressive play which the perk was not made to do.
No, you misunderstand: DS is meant as an anti-tunnelling perk, but it is one of the most easily counterplayed perks in the game. If the killer opts not to tunnel, the perk doesn't work, at all.
And so people will try to use it aggressively so they can get SOME value out of their band-aid perk. And I would like to remind you: Against a competent killer, this has a near zero percent chance of working, and is much more likely to cost the survivors.
Whether DS has any value at all is entirely down to the killer.
or atleast use it as evidence to say "the game is not survivor sided" or "the game is balanced" it cannot be used as much as they want it to be.
It doesn't need to be used 'as much as they want it to be'. It can be used, period, and that is enough, considering there is NO evidence pointing to the game being survivor-sided. So as flimsy as the stats and Otz' experiment might be as data, it still beats out the 'anecdata' propping up the idea that the game is survivor-sided.
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Ok this is getting old, first off yes they can since there are perks and a boon that can hide scratch marks along with that lockers and some vault points that can help hide survivors among other things, alot of your arguments sound more like a case of victom blaming because for the most part what I read from any hook argument you have is basically "if anything like bt or that isn't in a survivor's perk build they can't do anything about it at all so ds must stay that way" right does that excuse constant running survivors or people body blocking? To me I would say no cause it should be a bad play but to you I guess it's just fine that's why I keep saying it's a survivors ######### up because if it wasn't for the plethora of second chance perks and the bullshit they allow, most survivors wouldn't be trying to make excuses and try to say the game is balanced when it's not along with most of the ######### survivors having inflated egos for a game that made one side easier than the other at its core.
Secondly, no slugging is not an answer to the original argument I had because of two main reasons first the more simple issue is that since hit validation is the shits there's a chance a hit can be registered as a grab and yes that's more internet than the game but the fact it is an issue for a a game notoriously ######### about dealing with cheaters I might as well bring it up and for the more game based issue, you can try to justify it as putting pressure on the survivors but thanks to UB, adrenaline, one of the boons along with at least two perks that have an effect on the wiggle bars progression it will not work because unless the killer parks their ass on the survivor and wait out the time due to the perks I brought up. And along with that it doesn't stop the survivor crawling and getting healed as well. No a competent killer wouldn't have that problem because since ds is an anti tunneling perk if a survivor is altruistic no matter what your level is you wi still have to deal with it.
And for that little bit about saying stats from the devs and otz are better, tell me this then why is that neither video factors in things like swfs, the rng, specific maps used to show its balanced, and the potentially grim reaper of this game the ######### matchmaking system. Also it's becoming more and more apparent it is survivor biased thanks to more buff to perks and garbage nerfs that fix nothing and the fact that just as a business standing why not appease the 4 instead of the 1. It may not be obvious but it is showing more and more.
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Ok this is getting old, first off yes they can since there are perks and a boon that can hide scratch marks along with that lockers and some vault points that can help hide survivors among other things, alot of your arguments sound more like a case of victom blaming because for the most part what I read from any hook argument you have is basically "if anything like bt or that isn't in a survivor's perk build they can't do anything about it at all so ds must stay that way" right does that excuse constant running survivors or people body blocking? To me I would say no cause it should be a bad play but to you I guess it's just fine that's why I keep saying it's a survivors ######### up because if it wasn't for the plethora of second chance perks and the bullshit they allow, most survivors wouldn't be trying to make excuses and try to say the game is balanced when it's not along with most of the ######### survivors having inflated egos for a game that made one side easier than the other at its core.
I want to point out here that you are arguing that DS shouldn't fire if the survivor gets caught, so now you're advocating for pairing DS with perks that make you more difficult to find after you've been unhooked, like Off the Record or Babysitter.
You are legitimately so frustrated with the fact that DS exists at all that, in your opinion, it shouldn't be usable if the survivor gets caught. Which is the only position in which DS can potentially fire.
This is how badly killer-biased you are: One of the easiest to counterplay perks is a problem to you because you believe that, while the survivor can be blamed entirely for things outside their control (Should just evade killer with extra perk sacrifices and magic), the killer is absolved of all guilt when they tunnel someone off hook and instead of slugging them and moving to the next target, they pick them up and risk getting DS'd.
If DS fires, 99% of cases, it's the killer making a mistake. It is the single easiest perk to counterplay.
Secondly, no slugging is not an answer to the original argument I had because of two main reasons first the more simple issue is that since hit validation is the shits there's a chance a hit can be registered as a grab
I'm pretty sure that's actually impossible. Grabs can turn into hits, not the other way around.
and for the more game based issue, you can try to justify it as putting pressure on the survivors but thanks to UB, adrenaline, one of the boons
UB only works once. Adrenaline only works when the last gen fires up. Exponential only works in a limited radius around a totem that had to be blessed beforehand, and can be snuffed before it can benefit the survivor in the unlikely event they went down in its radius. These three perks have a chance at remedying the lowest effort counter to DS, in which case you can just opt to camp out the timer on DS to still have no trouble with it. Or you can just leave and let them expend UB so they won't have it next time you slap them down.
Either way, the survivor is losing extra time.
"But I did too, I chased them and now I don't get a hook!"
Then stop chasing a freshly unhooked survivor. Find another target. DS only works if you focus on this one target.
And along with that it doesn't stop the survivor crawling and getting healed as well.
In which case you're pressuring both the slug and the healer.
I don't know what you're expecting here, really. DS has one (1) singular job: To deter tunnelling. And now you're arguing "But what if I'm tunnelling really hard!?"
You don't just get to ignore survivor perks just because you feel you should be allowed to toggle your brain off.
And for that little bit about saying stats from the devs and otz are better, tell me this then why is that neither video factors in things like swfs, the rng, specific maps used to show its balanced, and the potentially grim reaper of this game the ######### matchmaking system.
Literally every factor is factored in. There's nothing about either Otz' experiment or that of the devs that was procured from a curated environment. Otz just hit the play button like you or I might do: He was dealing with swiffers, with RNG, with maps, and with matchmaking.
And likewise, the dev's stats dealt with all of that. They did say Swiffers had an up to 15% increased escape rate over solos, but the overall escape rate was still below 50%. All of the matches they pulled data from were subject to RNG, and they specifically highlighted two maps: The most and least kill-heavy maps. Surprise surprise: The most 'survivor-sided map' still had a 50% kill rate.
Both of these were dealing with the matchmaking in the exact same way as you or I. The only difference that could be marked is that if the matchmaking is working, Otz would have a harder time than you or I. If it isn't, then we'd potentially have a harder time than him.
But a bad matchmaking doesn't make the game 'survivor-sided'.
Also it's becoming more and more apparent it is survivor biased thanks to more buff to perks
The vast majority of survivor perks are garbage, and they still need more buffs in order to be impactful enough to justify picking over something like DS. Which, in itself is also a bad perk, but at least it can get boneheaded killers who just hardcore tunnel into it.
and the fact that just as a business standing why not appease the 4 instead of the 1.
That's a motivation, not an actual piece of evidence.
It may not be obvious but it is showing more and more.
No. You know what's going on?
Kill rates have dropped. But they're dropping TO 50%, not FROM 50%. The game is slowly inching towards the survivors' side, that is true. But it's coming from a place where the average kill rate at red ranks was 70%. By the only metrics available, the game WAS heavily killer sided, and is now only -slightly- killer-sided.
And that -feels- unfair to you.
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Why are we still responding in this literal bait pond?
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Cause people still believe this garbage.
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Never has been or will be killer sided.
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