What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair?
Comments
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So I definitely would like to point you towards the question I've raised to other people who shared the idea that doing all the totems is unrealistic- why would you assume that it's the only counter, why isn't finding the totem after it procs considered a counter when it's far more realistic and effective?
But I do appreciate the last point for being new- I don't know that I agree, though. If it's endgame, then your only objective is securing kills, so camping the hook is all the killer has. NOED doesn't really come into that beyond being a very, very temporary deterrence from attempting a save until it's cleansed?
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Again not really an option when it comes to facecamping. Especially in solo by the time you realise it's a facecamp you have to focus everything on gens and don't have time to go scavage hunting even if it's just to remember their location.
There is also the case in between it activating and it being cleansed there can always be a survivor that goes down even if you remember the exact location of all dulls. Not really a problem cause adrenaline does something simular but it's still a feelbad moment.
Do want to clarify that i don't think noed is a problem, atleast not a high priority one. I can just understand the psychology behind people hating it.
It's kinda like dead hard how it dangles victory in your face to then rip it away from you. It's not nececarelly op or a problem but it does feel bad
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I think a lot of people hate it cause they thought they had the game won and got surprised with noed at the end.
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If 4 persons messed up cuz of noed, it is easier to blame the perk and its user instead of optimizing the own playstyle. In majority of my matches the killer gets 0-1 extra kill with noed. that's all.
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NOED is unfair to solo q players that can't coordinate to do 5 gens and five totems every game. Bloodwarden is a one minute endgame perk/ No Way Out is a one minute endgame perk... NOED should be the same.
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The reason NOED isn't on a timer is because it can be shut off within seconds of it activating, though. You don't have to do all five totems, you just can if you feel that would be worth your time.
Otherwise, you deactivate it once it is revealed to you.
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It doesn't change the fact that survivors can't coordinate every game "until the end" to cleanse all totems and get five gens done. Still doesn't change that fact. Its like saying previous ds was fine because "you could just go to someone else for one minute".
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Right, but again, you don't have to cleanse all the totems. That isn't necessary for countering NOED, it's just an option you have if you want to for whatever reason.
I agree with you! Expecting solo survivors to cleanse all five totems every game isn't reasonable. But nothing is actually making them do that because NOED lights up like any other hex when the last generator is done.
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Noed is fine, if the killer really is as bad as you say, then you have time to do bones, if the killer was pressuring you well enough that you can't do bones, then they earned it
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Like any other hexes, a good placement is all it takes to wreck survivors. And unlike other hexes, NOED doesn't need as much input from the killer's side to beat down the survivors. I've seen countless games where the killer barely hooked anyone during the trial, and then demolished my team just because of that one perk. That shouldn't be a thing.
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But it's not a loss until all 4 survivors have left the match via door or hatch. In various games I have seen Survivors get greedy and cocky when all Gens are done. They do more BMing, getting close to the Killer and in general Farming the Killer. Not every Killer that uses NOED is a bad player who can chase or counter loops just as all Survivors that use 2nd chance perks are bad.
These 2nd chance perks are crutches at the most, but are valuable tools for the experienced. The point of NOED is that it's a surprise perk like Bloodwarden, you don't know it's there until it happens. Yes Blood Warden has a very lame counter, just 99 a door and wait to open it after a hook. Personally there are issues there I won't go into for the sake of staying on topic.
But NOED has 2 major counters, break totems or just leave. Yes breaking the 5 totems is a task and can be difficult on some maps but since totem placement has yet to be fixed thier locations are in fixed spots. Survivors have items and Perks to find Totems faster but now we come down to the reason why so many Survivors are now complaining about NOED.....Boons.
Now that we have Boons, especially CoH, Survivors don't want to break totems because they don't want to lose that "critical" location for CoH. I have been trolled in a match for breaking a totem to use Inner Strength.
In the end NOED isn't unfair or supports a bad or inexperienced Killer. We just have a perfect storm of flaws as a whole that make issues worse.
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So don't. Just cleanse the lit totem at the end.
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Basically it comes down to 2 things, from my experience.
1. Survivors feel that once the last gen is finished, they've won. A sudden risk that threatens to reverse that win isn't looked upon kindly, even though it's functionally the same as if they had UB/exponential and used it right at the end when the killer thought he was about to get a multi-kill situation going. (One effectively removes a health state, the other gives one back)
2. Survivors seem to believe that the only counter to the perk is to stop it from activating entirely. You've already seen that here. The idea that you can wait and treat it like every other hex perk doesn't seem to ever actually sync up.
I will add, with the boon meta, noed is less of a threat than ever, and yet also encountered more often. What I mean is, as survivors aren't actually getting rid of totems now, more killers are bringing noed, but in the actual match it's a lot easier to find the lit totem as 2-3 of them are booned, (making them possible to see through walls and floors across the map for the survivors) meaning you've got a 33-50% chance of it being the first non-booned totem you come across. Countering noed has never, ever been easier for solo (the only way I play survivor for years now)
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"NOED doesn't need as much input from the killer's side to beat down the survivors."
You still have to chase them, hit them, and get them to a hook. Where exactly is the lack of input?
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I mean that you can play a game flawlessly as a surv then die at the end
But you did not play 'flawlessly' because you either ignored bones, or were pressured off bones.
Perks should not reward bad plays
What 'bad play'? The bullshit '5 gens popped so the Killer basically lost' lie?
You lost game, you failed to stop survivors. You should not get kill because of NOED
No, you did not. You did not win because 5 gens popped. The Killer did not lose because 5 gens popped. This is false. This is a lie. You are wrong.
'5 gen popped 🤪' is stupidity Survivor mains invented to pretend NoED has flaws. Stop it. Saying this is a lie. The Killer has not lost until Survivors cannot be killed. End of story.
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It’s all psychological, something similar to loss aversion. People hate losing something they think they won much more than losing the chance to get something they never had. So nobody complains if a Haunted Ground pops early in the match and two people go down instantly from it and that snowballs into a 4k with the gens not being finished. But if the killer has 2k going into the end and the gens pop and they get another 1 or 2k because NOED got them 1 or 2 downs at the end of the match you can bet there will be enough salt to fill an ocean!
Finishing the gens feels like a win to a lot of survivors, so when they lose after that it really stings. It’s got nothing to do with whether or not the perk is actually effective, it’s all about this feeling of losing something you already earned.
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I have never seen any other perk allowing a killer to come back, after getting outplayed all game, other than NOED. No other perk ever. So, continue to pretend that NOED doesn't give too much.
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And yet Survivors have 16 'come back' perks in every match and this is fine. Double-standard harder. 🙃
Also, the Killer is not 'getting outplayed' if 5 gens pop. This is not some magical goal line. The 5th gen popping is the same as the first; it's just a step to escaping. Survivors have not won, or 'outplayed' the Killer, just because a 5th gen popped.
Survivors babbling the same nonsense they always babble to lie about NoED.
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"Noed is so unfair because solo players might not know whether totems are done." - Person who only plays 4 man SWF but doesn't want to get off a gen to touch a totem 1.25 times a match.
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The problem with NOED is that it takes away a sense of accomplishment from the survivors when they feel they already won.
Killers with access to insta-downs the whole match, just fine.
Perks that expose during the match, not a problem.
Perk that exposes after the last gen, evil incarnate.
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The reason that NOED is a bad perk - is the same reason that Technician, or Windows are bad perks. They coddle the player too much, where the player is discouraged to actively learn and overcome their weaknesses.
The killer's objective, and gameplay is literally to hunt and hook survivors - with the main goal being to secure the kills. Riddle me this, if you are a good killer, who can secure 1-2 kills before all generators are finished and then secure another or the remaining survivors, what is the need for NOED?
You've utilised the necessary skills to the fullest, and were awarded for it. The presence of NOED, would then become redundant - because you are achieving your goal, whilst also stopping some of the players from even reaching end-game. Same way that if you know the lay-out of tiles, a perk like Windows becomes redundant because you already know where you have to go for the next pallet/window - or better yet, technician becomes completely useless when you've gotten accustomed to hitting skill checks because it's value is completely deteriorated. You only rely on those perks if you aren't fully confident either in your ability to navigate the map in a chase, or in hitting skill checks and until you remove those perks - you will truly never become a better player because what is the reason for it?
I hope you're on the same page as me, up to this point. Imagine if the devs released a perk - that punished you for achieving your objective. Let's say that a resurrect perk existed in the game, we don't have to go deep into the mechanics, but the basic outline is that you can bring a player back from the dead. Would feel awful, knowing that you worked hard chasing that player, securing the kill and then to be punished by a perk that undoes your work - adding more conditions to a game that you felt like you were winning. It would be cheap, and cheated if they were to escape as they didn't deserve to. You outplayed them throughout the trial, and put all you had to secure the 'win', only for it to be undone by a singular perk.
Now flip it onto NOED. You could've ran several chases with the killer, won every single one. Never gotten hooked. Challenged the killer on their gen pressure by completing generators, saving your teammates to ensure that they can see the end of the trial too. You're nearing the completion of the last generator, you pop it, and then you're smacked with NOED. A game that had 0-2 hooks throughout the whole trial has now turned upside down to a singular perk, with you teammates dying on hooks. A game that should've been a 4-man escape, due to the skill gap between those survivors and killer, has now turned into a 2-3 kill game. The killer did very little to deserve those downs, and relied on the survivors to complete THEIR objective so that he can be awarded with a cheap perk.
The perk doesn't only insta-down, but it tilts a pre-existing advantage even further in the killer's favour by having a speedboost, making looping for the survivor dangerous especially if pallets have been used already.
You're not a good player, or becoming a better player if you are conditioning a reliance on a perk.
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So your evidence that noed is too powerful is that there aren't a wealth of options for a killer to turn a match around in the late game? So by that logic DS would "give too much" as there is no other perk that allows you to escape from the killer's shoulder just because you lost 3 chases back to back.
Also, hate to break it to you, but the game is balanced around a 2e/2k, which means it's assumed that the gens will all be done in the majority of games. (As that's literally the only way 2 can escape) It's not "outplaying" anyone, it's just doing (most) of your objective.
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End game or during the trial... never saw any other perk that turned the tide for a killer that was getting his ass kicked before the perk entered in action. That says it all.
Please, don't be such a hypocrite. You're criticizing about survivors what you deny about killers.
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For your second point, i don't agree. Many killers that run the perk, will go as far as taking the risk of a wiggle-off, to hook a survivor right by where the NOED is.
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Again. Fixing generators isnt kicking anyone's ass. It's literally expected in the match. And rarity of options doesn't make something op or in need of change, if anything it would point to a need to add more, similar perks.
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Whew, there's a lot to this one...
Okay, first challenged assertion: Windows of Opportunity is not a bad perk, nor is it a training wheels perk. It gives you more information than just pallet spawns- it shows you which pallets have been dropped by teammates, which breakable walls have been kicked, and what pallets you actually have available. Technician I'll grant you, but it's not really a bad perk because it's a training wheels perk, it's... just kind of a bad perk in general, it's not even that useful for players who are still learning.
Second, I absolutely have to challenge the idea that a game with 0-2 hooks can be turned around by NOED if the skill gap actually is that intense. Remember that the perk has among the most counterplay in the game, it can be prevented from ever activating and it can be deactivated once it does, and it still requires the killer to win a chase- even if it makes chases slightly easier to win by giving a speed boost.
If the killer actually isn't good, what's the excuse for the perk not being disabled and the killer once again outplayed once that buff is removed from them? I absolutely buy that a good killer can snowball the one or two downs NOED gives you into a victory, but I don't buy for a second that a bad killer can in the way you're describing. NOED simply isn't that powerful, even while it's active, and there's no reason it should be active for that long unless a survivor team are running into it like lemmings.
Lastly, I have to disagree that the game you're describing "should" have been a 4-man escape. Games turn around in the endgame all the time without NOED, the game is not won just because the last generator popped.
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That's when you just leave with the rest of your team, and leave him to his 1k. Same as you would a bubba camping at egc.
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I'm talking chase wise. Never saw a killer doing badly in chase, and then coming back because of one perk.... except for NOED. Is it that hard to understand?
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If you lost 5 generators, yeah this was bad play. NOED should not give you kills. If you are skilled, you can get more kills. Game is not over yet. But NOED should not give you kills, simple. Bad design.
But ofcourse you will defend NOED, what a surprise.
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So you've never seen bamboozle?
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I'm not being a hypocrite to point out your hypocrisy over whining the Killers have ONE 'second chance perk' while Survivors get 4 per Survivor. That's not how it works.
Wrong. Your OPINION is that the Killer has 'played bad' because 5 gens popped. You invented this arbitrary point (5 gens) and decided 'the Killer played bad' and now think this is actually enforceable.
Typical Survivor main entitled whining; they think they can invent rules and actually enforce them.
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Who said bamboozle had no counter? Who? Even against billy or bubba it is not undoable to go against. The killer has to work hard to get it. Not the case with NOED. Its the same with save the best for last.
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Yes you are, since you refuse to get rid of all bs from both sides.
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I've never seen noed force a survivor to jump on a hook. I've never seen it activate and make survivors drop dead, so I'm going to have to challenge your assertion that it's giving anyone kills.
Also, as previously pointed out, all of the gens being completed is literally expected from a balance perspective. For 6 years the devs have said they balance around a 2e/2k being average. That means in the average match they expect all gens to pop, as that's the only way for 2 to escape. So I'm going to also have to challenge the assessment of "bad play" simply because the thing the developers plan to occur in the majority of matches, happens.
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Uhh, nobody said that, including me?
Your back must be sore from all that goalpost moving.
You said
"Never saw a killer doing badly in chase and then coming back because of one perk.... except for NOED."
So I pointed out bamboozle, which literally exists to help a killer win a chase when he is doing badly due to being looped.
You didn't say "Name a perk that doesn't have a counter"
noed also has several counters, so I really don't know what it is you are trying to argue at this point.
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You are not person who will tell me what is wrong or not.
Your objective is stopping survivors. If they finish generators, this mean they are close to escape. But you can still stop them, game is not over on this point. BUT! Noed should not give you kills here. It is bad design like Dead Hard. This is my opinion. It is not wrong to me. And i don't care if it is wrong for you. You are not important person for me.
And i am not even survivor main lol. You are wrong here. I am killer main and i am enjoying with killer more. And i am playing killer. Actually i was playing killer more, after CoH playing killer is almost imposible. So i stopped DbD, i back for event and probably i will stop after event.
2 kills 2 escapes are pretty bad balance, i don't wanna talk about it because we are talking about NOED. I already told why i don't like NOED. Because it is crutches perk for killers. And survivors have same type perk too. I don't want to see this type perks.
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Just got Rancored... Last Gen pops - caught and killed.
Game is not over after last gen is done.
NOED is completely fine - everybody knows it could be there but ignores it during the game. Because not everbody runs it though.
And then when the first goes down everybody screams. But it was completely your fault ignoring the totems during the match.
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Again, this is a personal opinion, and I'll allow you to have it. But personally, I believe that Windows IS a bad perk because of it's coddling aspect. No need to debate this though, as this is nothing more than difference of opinion.
As for your second point, I mean.. It truly can. A bad player doesn't have to be someone who loses the chase with not even a hit on the survivor, often times that I play against killers that I think aren't confident in chase, they'll leave me injured. But they leave me because of their inability to actually secure the down on me. NOED removes the bridge between chasing a healthy survivor and having to down them - by completely obliterating the stage in between - which is the injured state. As we've acknowledged, getting the initial hit is also fairly easy when assisted by a speedboost.
The counter argument of the perk being deactivated exists, and I acknowledge that the perk does have counter-play. But this counterplay pre-dominantly exists in the realm of SWF, and not necessarily solo-queue.
I won't lie to you, my MMR isn't the best, I'm someone who has a long history of DCing and I've somewhat ruined my MMR because of it, so I recognise that I'm playing in a lower skill bracket than what I'm supposed to be, so I know what high and low MMR games roughly look like. Let me tell you, that solo-q is god awful. I have a vivid memory of a recent game, the killer couldn't catch me, but I took my sweet time engaging in the chase to give my teammates time to do generators. Whenever I was out of chase, I would look for bones or finish a generator that survivors were taken off. I think I failed to find 1-2 totems in the trial, when we hit end-game. Long and behold, NOED. I think the killer secured about 3 kills with that NOED as he hooked the initial survivor right by where the NOED totem was.
If you are looking at the balancing of NOED through the lens of SWF, or at least a party that can communicate - sure, NOED becomes easier to play around. But when you are looking through the lens of, I can't communicate with my teammates, i have NO idea what they've done throughout the trial - it becomes a different story.
Not to mention, as I've briefly said, NOED is an end-game perk, by the time that you reach end-game, most pallets and tiles that were safe to run, are no longer there to run.
Quick edit: the philosophy of just leaving and letting the survivor die, by no fault of their own, but because of an insta-down perk, is also unfair when you consider that you're playing in a team, where the highest value you get is from altruism
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Except, forcing a game condition that takes away player agency is terrible game design.
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Not my opinion, but my take on the community's feelings regarding NOED is that the perk is an unnecessary safety net for unskilled killers. After the introduction of the current SBMM iteration, this perk alone can turn a loss into a draw and a draw into a victory by effectively boosting you by one kill as survivors are not encouraged to play altruistic.
Another point of contention is the binary counter-play of the perk. It doesn't matter if 4 totems were dealt with if one remains, the perk will activate with full effect. That's 70 seconds of cleansing time alone, not counting the real time-waster that is finding the totems meaning that if you want to make sure NOED doesn't activate you have to invest 2-3 gens worth of time when the perk might not even be there.
My opinion is: I think the game is too snowbally and needs more catch-up mechanics but NOED in its current state is way too impactful in the current SBMM system. What I would do to change that? When the last generator is powered, NOED activates ALL remaining dull totems and the killer gains a stack for each. Putting someone down with a basic attack will consume a token, and turn one of the NOED totems dull. Cleansing or blessing a NOED totem will remove 1 stack.
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Oh my god, stop playing with words. I said i never saw a perk that allowed a killer that had no skill to beat survivors just because it came into play "except for noed". They nerfed DS/ Moris/ Keys... do you really think noed is gonna cut it? They take so fricking long. That kind of threads would be long gone then.
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Except you aren't being forced? You have the choice. If you think your team is good enough to coordinate the trade and snuff, go for it. If you don't, leave. By your logic, it's "terrible game design" that there can be 1 survivor left, because by that point, all they can do is run for the hatch, (unless the killer gets to it first) it completely takes their agency away in exactly the same manner as you are claiming here.
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Yes, a bad killer can get a down with NOED, but a bad killer will also flounder and get flustered after that point, which is the point at which you'd be looking at countering it. When I brought up that it's one of the most counterable perks in the game, I brought up the other part of its counterplay that you glossed over- you can deactivate it after it's lit up.
I'm not talking about SWF here- I don't have the luxury of knowing firsthand what playing in a SWF is like, I exclusively play solo when I play survivor. I am talking about playing alone, and if it's a bad killer like you're describing, there's no reason why NOED can't be found, deactivated, and then the killer outplayed again when you go in for a save. Alternately, just leave while the killer's hooking their one down, a single kill is still a loss and NOED didn't actually do that much for the killer.
You do not need to cleanse all five totems. The lack of communication is irrelevant- you don't need to know what your teammates are doing to remember where the dulls are and go check them. In fact, your anecdote explains why that's the better tactic- if you don't have means of ensuring you can get all five, it's actively harder to properly counter NOED when it procs.
In that anecdote, by the way- if the first survivor was hooked by the NOED totem, how on earth did that killer get any more downs...? Presumably they didn't leave that spot, so the only way they could get more downs is if the other survivors ran into them, which is hardly a case for NOED being OP.
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So again. Bamboozle. Except unlike noed, there's no option to stop bamboozle from ever activating.
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Bamboozle doesn't allow bad killers to do well in chases.
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That would buff NOED to quite an extent. As is, once it activates you only have to find a single totem and remove/bless it to completely kill the perk. Why add more totems to that equation?
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Of course it does. I'm ######### in chases and it literally helped me learn and get many downs when I used it.
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Look at your own post, “IF” the team is good.
thats conditional, and eliminates a player pool that doesn’t get the chance to coordinate due to a lack of communication.
As a killer, allowing the game to go into end-game with less than 2 hooks, and securing a kill via a perk that insta downs and gives you a speedboost is not healthy, and tilts the game
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It's just an example. There's a few other times where it's better to just rush the gens such as someone who's getting tunnelled, ruin, indoor map etc.
Well I wouldn't mind lowering the time to a minute or 90 seconds but I don't think people would be happy with that.
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If the survivor is good he can still outplay you.
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