What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair?
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It might be easy for SWFs but im talking about solo teams. This perk is straight up overpowered if its used against solo survs because they have no coordination.
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Ohtofu/ Truetalent/ Otzdarva says noed is unhealthy as content creators killer mains. It only means that thinking that noed isn't fair and healthy doesn't come from nowhere. But, continue to deny all validity from the other side. Continue to pretend that there is no valid reason to think that noed is unhealthy and unfair.
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I have never had any issue snuffing a single lit totem in any game I've played as solo survivor, which is the majority of the games I play.
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Provide an actual reason, not "these guys say it is". So far that and "it feels bad to me no matter what any data says" are the only "reasons" you have brought forth and no, neither of which is particularly valid.
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Then you probably played against inexperienced killers. Or the solo teams you were playing with were good (which is very rare.. but whatever)
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So then, you must also find Ruin, Devour, Thrill of the hunt, and literally every other hex perk just as overpowered, as you have now twice confirmed that you find it too difficult for a solo survivor to remove a Single Lit Totem. Also, you should probably try out Detective's Hunch, as that will teach you what a totem looks like. Because honestly if you can't do a single one, that's a game knowledge/skill issue.
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They are experts on the subject not you. You can't put they expertise aside for no good reason. It doesn't work this way. When you want to know if someone is responsible or have a mental illness you ask a psychiatrist... not the local bookseller.
Edit; you can have a different opinion than theirs. But you can't say that people that think the same have no reason to think it.
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I shouldnt waste a perk slot just to counter a perk that i dont know when i will play against. Devs should just nerf NOED and turn it into an interactive perk.
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Slight correction, they are not experts on the topic we're discussing, because we're discussing potential balance changes. Otzdarva and the others are very thoroughly knowledgeable on how the current currently is but that doesn't automatically translate to having any particular authority on how it should be.
That's why bringing them up here isn't really relevant, in this area they're just people who play the game whose opinion has about as much weight as anyone else's.
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NOED is different and stronger because its a end-game hex perk. And its effects are way stronger compared to the other hexes.
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Ok, so then why earlier did you completely refuse to accept the developers (Amos in particular) and say they are mistaken? Are the ones who made the actual game and keep it going not considered "experts" to you? After all, using your own analogy they would have been the ones who went to school and studied the brain, while otz and the like are more the "self help" gurus you find on YouTube, who while very enthusiastic, are not formally trained.
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Surely that would make it weaker, though? The killer has a very small window of time to actually make use of it before it's either cleansed, or the survivors just leave the match.
It's still just one lit totem, so I'm not sure why it being the endgame would make that much difference? Maybe the killer's defending it, but in that case you can just go open the exit gates and leave.
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They have quite the experience with the game. That's why it is relevant. It doesn't say that they are automatically right. That's it.
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Because you deny all validity from noed criticism. You don't admit that it is understandable that noed have issues for survivors.
Edit: also... Almo, the same dev that said that old Object is not a terribly effective perk?
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No no no. NOED, as a end-game hex perk, is stronger than other hexes. Because survivors might think that the killer has no hex perks and not waste time cleansing totems. And once the end-game starts.. killers can get surprise instadowns and secure kills.
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That's just not true. I just haven't accepted the Bs you personally have said. My comments in this thread alone show that I am more than willing to consider actual reasons.
And that really doesn't explain why you feel that streamers of a game are authorities that must be listened to, yet the people who actually made the game can be dismissed out of hand. That has nothing to do with me.
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I agree! It doesn't mean they're automatically right, and it also means they aren't experts, they're just people with a wider knowledge base to pull from.
They're relevant, but they're relevant because their reasoning might be persuasive, not just because they hold a certain opinion. I don't care that Otz thinks NOED is unfair, necessarily, but I might care why he thinks that.
(I don't, in this scenario, but hypothetically I might.)
That's why it was an argument from authority; you weren't bringing up his argument, just mentioning him because you (presumably) thought his name was inherently more persuasive.
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Sure, but that assumption is going to be proven wrong the first time someone's hit with it. As soon as you see "CURSED: NO ONE ESCAPES DEATH" show up on your screen, you can go find and cleanse the totem- or if you're the one hit, your team can so they can go for a save.
And if they don't... well, people don't always get saved in the endgame without NOED in play, it happens.
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Its not BS. You don't want NOED to change. When a change would eventually make it better for killers also. If you understood what i said, i'd actually buff NOED in the end. I'd buff it for good killers. And weaken it for the trash ones.
I mentioned content creators to say that thinking that noed is unfair doesn't come from nowhere "since players of that caliber came to the same conclusion". From what i've heard, they dislike noed for his snowball potential against solo q players... the same argument you all just put aside.
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I know the thought doesn't come out of nowhere, I just disagree with it. I don't think that NOED actually does unfairly punish solo q players, for reasons I've laid out throughout the thread.
Hearing Otz thinks it does have too much snowball potential doesn't change my mind because it doesn't address any of the reasons I think the things I think.
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But by denying that aspect... you're also preventing buffing the perk accordingly in the end.
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...No? I think the perk is too weak/inconsistent and think it should have a completely different effect, because making this effect stronger risks actually making it OP and making the effect weaker by forcing a token system or timer onto it is obviously the wrong call.
I am not interested in making NOED more finnicky and inconsistent to actually use, even if it comes packaged with some stronger effects. I want it to be consistently useful.
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In your opinion. I could also say that a timer limits the snowball potential that is problematic, but make it consistent enough so that other problematic aspect gets addressed. I could also say that endgame builds needs a good noed or they'll be worthless, and that asking for the four survivors to be hooked once before the fifth gen pops is enough restriction to reward the killer with good permanent pressure. NOED has its own core, no need to change it... just create another perk if you have a good idea for endgame.
Edit: look at ds... it was op as hell. They didn't change its core nature, only its activation requirements. And now it is in a perfect spot.
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Sure, in my opinion, but we're just discussing opinions here anyway.
If the timer came with the removal of its hex status, it would end up in the same scenario- you already need to have quite a few hooks going (ideally someone dead) before NOED's going to do all that much for you, so it'll be in the exact same spot. But... that's bad? It would be just as annoying to survivors because nothing about it has actually changed beyond it having less counterplay, and it's still not going to be a particularly great perk because the benefits being on a timer means survivors will be more inclined to be immersed until they're no longer Exposed.
If it's not on a timer, and it's just permanent... that makes things far worse? Now it's a strong effect with no counterplay at all, I don't see how that fixes anything.
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They should remove the increased speed. That’s all. If you want a kill, work for it. Not let a perk kills for you
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Putting it on a timer has more counterplay from survivors. Cause choices to make are more clear then. Like, if the timer exceeds the hook state you just leave. Otherwise you wait it out. With a totem its different. Very different. It all comes down to luck.
I'd be fine with noed being permanent if the killer has hooked all survivor once... because trash killers wouldn't benefit from it in the first place, what is my only issue with the perk from a survivor perspective.
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I'd argue choosing whether to wait out the timer or not is exactly the same amount of counterplay as choosing to cleanse a totem or not, with the sole difference that cleansing a totem is more interactive than waiting in a bush.
Your second point is the one I have bigger problems with, though- NOED may feel as though trash killers get too much value, but one of my main points throughout this thread is that I genuinely don't see how that could be true. If a killer is trash, they'll get one down, the perk will be revealed, and then their more skilled opponents will go cleanse it or they'll just leave. The only way a trash - or even just average - killer gets all that much value is if survivors play into it, not because the perk itself inherently gifts it to them.
What I think it boils down to is that survivors see a killer that's having a poor match, assume they're trash, and then get mad that they successfully leveraged NOED into a few kills because they don't think a skilled player could possibly have a bad match- or more realistically, because they don't realise how much they or their teammates played into NOED and gave it value. It all comes down to perception, and while there's merit to saying a perk that feels bad warrants changing, it's important to understand that it just feels bad so you don't suggest things that'll make the problem far worse. Changing NOED to give the same or better value so that "trash killers can't benefit" will make the perk a far bigger problem, because currently, trash killers only benefit if the survivors play poorly- and a skilled killer will get much more out of a less counterable version of the perk.
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So, because SoloQs are bad at working together, the perk is OP?
Peak 'I'm too lazy to do bones, so please nerf the perk so I can sit my lazy butt on gens all game' reply.
Odd. Why should Killers have to work for every perk while Survivors have 500 second-chance perks that require little to no input from them?
Oh right; because Survivors think anything Killer-powered is OP unless it's got the hardest requirements to activate.
Not even 'Survivors can counter NoED' is enough for them. It has to be counterable AND require massive effort to use. And even then; they'll think of another reason to whine if it's still at all useful. 🙃
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When a killer get two hooks all throughout the game he doesn't deserve a come back because of one perk. A good killer can snowball with any perks... take noed away they won't. That's the problem. Take NOED away from the equation, they would never make a come back. So NOED is the problem within this scenarios.
Cleasing a totem or fighting a timer is different. Cause one is rng related. Not the other. And the gameplay would be more interactive since the killer would have to choose between taking risks or camping till the end. He won't be passive and getting as much value from it.
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It's not unfair. It certainly can't be called healthy though.
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Comebacks happen in the endgame all the time, NOED or not. As for a killer not deserving a comeback because of a perk, that seems a little excessive- if it takes skill to actually perform that comeback (which it does), why exactly is that unfair? You still need the skill to actually use NOED (or whatever other endgame perk you have, No Way Out is the same way) and a trash killer still doesn't benefit in the way you're suggesting, so what's the problem?
The game isn't over just because the last generator is done, it doesn't matter how many hooks the killer has. If they have the skill to make use of what they have available, NOED or not, that comeback is earned.
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When a killer get two hooks all throughout the game he doesn't deserve a come back because of one perk.
Ok. If I hook 2 people before 1 gen pops; Survivors no longer deserve to do gens. I have decided I automatically have won too much and Survivors can't be allowed to snowball.
See how bullshit that sounds? You don't get to decide when Survivors have won or Killers have lost. This 'Killers basically lost' idiocy needs to stop. You're wrong. You don't decide what a win is, and you don't decide when a Killer has lost. The end.
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Tell me one other perk that allows a killer to snowball as much after getting beating to a pulp. There is none. That's why the perk is a problem. WHether you think it is true or not it doesn't matter.
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No Way Out.
Also, depending on how loose we are with strict definition, tons of perks. Starstruck has actually carried me to extra kills I likely wouldn't have gotten without it because survivors tend to get cocky when they think they've already won, and I've also personally had late game Devour Hope carries after only getting a few hooks. Both of those happened after the last generator was completed, so it's definitely comparable.
There's also the fact that the fifth generator being completed doesn't actually translate to "getting beaten to a pulp". Sure, if that point is reached when you've only got a few hooks, that's a poor game for you, but it's still not over and you can still turn it around with the help of perks, and your power.
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No way Out ask the killer to hook all survivors once. And killer can't be passive about it. Wrong!
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To get maximum effect you have to hook 4. To get maximum effect from noed, doing the same would definitely help.
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If you're gonna do the whole "Wrong!" thing, it might be worth making sure you're actually correct.
No Way Out is improved by the killer hooking all survivors once. With zero hooks, No Way Out still activates and still allows the killer more of a chance to turn the endgame around. That also doesn't address the other two examples I gave, of perks that allowed the killer to come back in the endgame.
It's also worth mentioning that you didn't ask for a perk that had no activation requirements (even if NWO still qualifies), you asked for a perk that let the killer turn things around in the endgame after having a very poor match.
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No way out doesn't have a sgnificant effect if survivors haven't been hooked. Starstruck has a 30 seconds duration on survivors. Devour hope needs stack by hooking numerous times, and getting far from the unhook. Killers needs to be quite active to get value from them. That's not the same with noed in a good rng.
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Neither does NOED. Getting one guy on a hook if nobody's been hooked means everyone is totally healthy and not at all vulnerable, making cleansing and saving far, far easier. If you want value from NOED, you ideally want at least one person dead already, otherwise the one person you down is going to have three other people to rescue them.
They're all still perks that, if you're skilled, you can use to turn around a losing match. Same as NOED- except all the perks listed are stronger and more consistent than NOED.
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Those perks require a lot of input that noed doesn't require. How is getting passively an unlimited insta-down ability an input from the killer?
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He has to guard at least 1 totem. He has to find people, chase people, and hit people still.
How is it Survivors can't understand that they don't create the win/lose conditions for the game? or perks?
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People feel they have won once the generators are done. If the killer wins after the gens are done, they feel like their win was stolen from them and the killer doesn't deserve it because he lost all the gens. They also feel the killer didn't do anything to get it despite playing with 3 perks for 90% of the game.
NOED exists in this weird state where people insist that killers don't deserve kills with it and are bad, but also that they can't do bones to stop it because the killer is too good and pressuring gens.
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You hit the nail on the head. For some reason, Survivors have decided that THEY get to decide when they win, and anything that goes against this is somehow not balanced, unfun, toxic, or whatever new buzzword they will invent tomorrow.
This is the only game where I've seen players decide THEY can invent a new win/loss condition, and expect it to be enforced in the game's balance.
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I actually made that post before reading this thread at all and was amused to go back and read it and see the exact "game ends when gens done" talking point used seriously.
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Maybe they could rework it so noed is only active when youre out of 32m range or something of a hooked survivor
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...No? Why do Survivors think they deserve some sort of shot at the hook? Suggestions to turn off Killer powers, make safe zones, make the hook teleport, and now 'It should turn off NoED'?
The gens popped, and if the Killer hooks someone by a gate; why should he be punished, or why should the Survivors be rewarded?
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I haven't read all pages up so if someone has said something similar to this, forgive me
The problem isn't that NOED itself is unfair, it's a strong effect that by design and stated by the devs themselves is to help the killer when they are at their weakest point (When survivors can escape). It's purpose in the game is to give many killers much needed lethality at a time when they need it the most
The issues with NOED stem from a few things:
Totem RNG - Most of the time this isn't a problem but NOED can create situations where a survivor is just straight up unsaveable. E.G totem right next to the hook or exit gate. Not the killer's fault, but the games
How it scales with killers - NOED on trapper or wraith is one thing, NOED on Nurse is a completely different thing.
And probably the main one: The fact that you can intentionally play badly and still use it. You know what I'm talking about - Facecamping bubbas and the like.
I suppose if we're to use MMR logic, if a facecamping bubba gets 2k bc of facecamping/noed then I guess it was a skillful play right? Well if a bubba is facecamping someone to death, everyone needs to gens. What can they not do if they're having to rush gens due to the killers playstyle? Totems. So what's the counterplay to NOED there?
I think this about sums up why I think NOED can be unfair sometimes, but not all the time.
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If bubba is getting more than 2k by facecamping and noed, he'll move up in the mmr until he faces teams that easily know how to beat both.
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Yeah true, if MMR works as intended that should be what happens
The problem is the playstyle's unfairness to the player, rather than the result if that makes sense since the threads talking about NOED/Unfairness
Maybe it was a bad example, it's just instantly what comes to my mind when I think of the types of killers who use NOED in this way.
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why bother even running from the killer then?
Ask yourself when is DBD actually thrilling to play? Its the times when you have to escape. the chase where you are on death hook sort of thing, under threat of mori, insta down. Scary killers make for great games.
The most exciting chase you'll have is the one where you life is on the line. How many times do you actually get that in a game I'd say 1 in 10.
Most games of DBD go like regular clock work, split up on gens, if not found first then sit on gens, if found first have chase and either get camped to death or get unhooked and go back to sitting on gens. Walk out exit once gens are done, queue again and hope for better game.
The only real excitment is death hook, insta down power, mori or NOED.
People who complain about NOED are the don't want an exciting game crowd they just want to escape and they BOO HOO when they don't. Get killed once in a while its half the fun.
Scary killers make the game good, they make the game exciting the rest is just ego idiocy of people who want to feel more powerful than the killer and always escape and that's a yawn fest.
If they ever nerf NOED all that will happen is this game will get more boring than it currently is. Its almost survive by daylight at this point.
Why not just give the killer a wiffle bat so everyone can always live all the time and then they all get cupcakes at the end and no one ever dies... will you be happy then?
I stand by my sore loser assesment of NOED complainers.
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