What *Exactly* Makes NOED Unfair?
So, I'm going to lay out my own position first so nobody's engaging under false pretences- while I don't think NOED is necessarily "fine", I think that it is by no means OP, unfair, or unhealthy. I think it's a mediocre, inconsistent perk that provides very little value at a point in the game where you're running up against the clock to actually use that value.
But... that is not the overriding opinion of the community. The community seems pretty split, and a lot of people seem to think NOED is unfair and/or unhealthy. I've never seen a good argument as to why, so that's what I'm asking for here! If you think NOED is unfair, unhealthy, or OP, tell me why!
Specifically I'm looking for a little more detail- I've seen people say, for instance, that NOED "gives unearned kills" or "rewards bad play", but never any explanation of why they think it does either of those. I do genuinely want to know the reasons behind thinking this way, this isn't a bad faith gesture, but I also will probably prod you for a little more explanation if something doesn't seem to make sense.
Let's try and keep it civil, though! No sense chiming in just to state that you don't think NOED is an unhealthy perk.
Comments
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Nothing.
NOED is fine.
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I think the opinion of it is that its a rage perk.
I mean that you can play a game flawlessly as a surv then die at the end, But my counter to that would be, that there are to many variables that go into a game, map/killer/perks then you can drill deeper and say gen and totem placement that would never call it fair.
Do any of the second chance survs perks reward bad play? i would say all of them, You don't need d.s if you dont get hooked, you dont need b/t if you don't get hooked, you don't need d/h if you can loop.
Do they not reward bad play?
Is Noed counterable? yes, it just requires more than just gen rushing. tbh it's a 50/50 perk, sometimes useful other times like most hexes wasteful.
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It is like Dead Hard for me.
You are winning chase and then survivor is saying "No, bud i have Dead Hard. We will loop more."
You are winning game and then killer is taking it from you with NOED.
NOED is bad design. Perks should not reward bad plays. Before i get what aboutism, yeah survivors have Dead Hard and it needs to go as well.
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Do you have any idea how many perks in this game, on both sides, are designed to help you suck less?
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I mean, is it really "winning game" when you didn't cleansed 5 bones?
lul
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But how does NOED reward bad plays? The game obviously isn't over just because the last generator popped, the killer isn't being given a "get out of loss free" card, so how does NOED reward bad plays?
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People seem resistant to the idea that end game builds are valid.
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I'm not sure if it's about "end game build" in general, NOED is WEAKEST of all the endgame perks because you can simply stops it from activating, but somehow no other endgame perks will be complained much.
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You lost game, you failed to stop survivors. You should not get kill because of NOED.
Help is different. You can use some perks for chase, slowdown, pressure etc. We are talking the perks which rewarding you for your lose. Yeah this is bad design for me.
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Genuine question- do you think Remember Me and No Way Out are also badly designed perks that need to be scrapped? Additionally, would you say that any kill the killer gets after the last generator is finished is unfair and unearned?
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I never said after last generator is finished killer should not get kills. But yeah, NOED kills are not deserved kills. Just bad design.
Why NOED is issue? Because killer is not doing anything, lose generators and then NOED will activate. This is not skilled play. Remember Me and No Way Out are solid perks. You need hooks for NWO and you need to hit obsession for Remember Me. Both perks are rewarding good plays.
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You haven't won or lost until you left the trial.
I win plenty of games at the last gen or ecg, not because i use Noed, Im a Huntress main, but because i prey on the fact many survivors want to help there friends, the amount of games i go from a 1k to more because of auteurism astounds me, Like my last game, i got 1 surv down after 3 gens popped.
So i camped and traded hooks, then come ecg 2 are wounded 2 are dead then it turned into a 4k, if they had have left that 1 surv i would have 1k instead of a 4k and 2 pips.
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I think you are misunderstanding NOED and rancor? because NOED doesn't make you get "kills" even, it just allows killers to skip a hit.
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This is fair. You played well and you rewarded for this, congrats!
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I think it's a little silly to assume that the killer isn't doing anything, they're probably playing the game normally and just doesn't get everyone killed before the last generator pops.
There are other perks that give comparable benefits without needing skilled plays, too. Haunted Grounds gives about the same benefit, the killer does nothing to "earn" that Exposed effect, is that one badly designed? If not, what's the difference?
I don't mean to be aggressive, legitimately- I want to understand why NOED gets called bad design when other similar perks don't.
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The intended counter-play to NOED is unrealistic for most Survivor groups.
Likewise, you are taking a guess that the Killer has NOED. You never know for sure. Cleansing 5 totems is a fairly large time investment, similar to one gen at the bare minimum.
Additionally, when the Killer isn't terrible and has managed to pressure your team well, but you have the edge when the gens are done, you just lose. There was no opportunity for you to cleanse totems, else you'd have lost the game earlier. That's a damned-if-you-do, damned-if-you-don't scenario.
To top it off, NOED is horrid at it's job. The teams you actually need it against (ie, 4-man squads) can remove it easily, as I've found in my totem experiment. NOED just ends up stomping Solo Q and Duo Q players, whom you shouldn't need it against.
NOED is a crutch for bad Killers, true, but it's unhealthy because of it's unrealistic counter-play that boosts good Killers to unintended heights and it is clearly a relic of a bygone era.
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I see how that would be the case if the only counterplay for NOED is to hard stop it from ever activating, but that's... not even really the best tactic for going against it?
You're right, cleansing all five totems is a heck of an undertaking, especially if you're doing it alone, but your argument kind of ignores the fact that you can just take care of NOED after it activates? Just make a note of where the dull totems are as you're playing, and check those if the perk actually does end up being in play. Surely the fact that not only is that a tactic, but also that it's the better tactic, should outweigh the fact that the hard counter is a little more unrealistic? Add onto that the fact that survivors do actually have perk builds that actively incentivise them to cleanse all the totems if that is the tactic they want to take (on top of those same perks making it easier to do), and NOED kinda loses that supposedly unhealthy aspect, surely?
I'm not talking out my ass here- I play solo survivor and I've done this exact thing myself, and I'm a pretty bad survivor who definitely doesn't have all the totem spawns memorised.
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Haunted is also does not need skill but it limited with a minute. And you need to bait survivors to cleanse it, using with other hex totems maybe. So Haunted is not problematic perk or bad design.
Devour is stronger than NOED and it rewards you for hooks and non-camp gameplay.
Rancor is giving info to obsession, so you know killer has it and you can play carefully at end game.
NOED is different. Killer does not need to do anything. Lose generators and get your reward. And survivors does not know you have it before first survivor down. This does not looks me good design, sorry.
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They complain because they can't bait the hook (abuse trash mechanics to force a hit instead of a grab) and then bt body block ds out the gate complete with crouch spam.
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Game is about Sacrifices and escapes and it suddenly gives killer 1-2 more kills on average. I think you understand how it affects mmr
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or you can just find a totem after all gens done, I'm not sure if it is that "unrealistic"... no different from cleansing a hex, you don't even have to do gens, and killer will likely to do camp or else pretty much letting everyone to escape.
You aren't even limited by EGC when NOED activates.
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NOED is very often active for about the same amount of time as Haunted, though. Either survivors can just open the gates and leave, or they can go cleanse the lit totem- I've played with NOED myself a fair amount to see how much value it actually gives, and in my experience, the value it gives is typically one down and very occasionally two or three downs, because as soon as it's active someone finds it to cleanse it or everyone leaves.
It may be a "reward" for "losing generators" (putting those in air quotes because it's pretty loaded framing- matches get into the endgame all the time, it doesn't mean it's a lost game or the killer "failed" to protect the generators, especially in the current state of the game), but the killer is put on a heavy time limit to actually make use of it. Given that and the fact that it can be prevented from ever activating, doesn't that balance it out to better design?
I still don't love the perk, I'd like to see it reworked to be more consistent, I just don't really see how it's an unfair design.
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Rancor is definitely WORSE than NOED, it gives killer the information of where every survivors are in, and if you die WITHIN game, killers can just slug camp obsession and kill it.
even worse if it's paired with nemesis, just eat a stun, kill them, they dead.
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My main issue with it is that you don't know it's in play until someone gets hit. You could be going for an end-game save and suddenly you're down because whoops the killer has NOED and you didn't know. Now you die too because you tried to be a nice teammate.
That, to me, is the only thing that feels unfair about it.
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...Does it, though? In my experience what it does is give 1-2 downs, not kills.
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We must not play against the same Killers.
The issue with that is that someone is already on the ground when we find out NOED is in play. There is very little chance (unless the Killer is horrible) that they are going to let you cleanse the totem. Likewise, going around the entire map takes time and even if you knew the exact spawns, it could still take you over 30 seconds to find the totem, let alone cleanse it.
As for perk builds, sure. You could take an entire build dedicated to hunting totems. Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Inner Strength and DH? You could do that. But again, you are taking a guess that the next Killer might have NOED.
NOED does not lose it's unhealthy aspect just because you can bring a very specific build to counter it. You can make an entire build to counter Dead Hard as Killer, does that mean DH is fine? Of course not.
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I could see that- the only part that does feel like it might be unfair is that the one guy who gets hit first doesn't have much of a chance to do any of the many things NOED can be countered by.
I would like to challenge the idea that you die because of that, though. Even with two people hooked, the perk can be deactivated and saves can be made-- and if the other two just leave, what did NOED actually do there? It got one down, and then everyone left, since in this scenario the first hook happened before NOED did anything.
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I think there's a reason NOED is usually on players that get destroyed.
I don't mind the end game instadown but I think the speed boost is too much.
I also don't like the argument "just do bones" since if a killer is face camping (I.e Bubba) your told to rush gens. So there's no time to waste running around to cleanse all the totems. If he then downs you near the totem, it's impossible to cleanse.
I'd personally remove the hex part of the perk and make it time based. Give the killer 2 minutes of instadown and remove the speed boost.
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Those kind of way is pretty norm in survivor perks though, I'm not talking about whataboutism, I'm just saying it's pretty clear dev thinks "pretend existence of a perk and adapt according to it" is fine and fair.
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That's a buff, and problem is not really a "do bones" or noed but bubba and facecamp.
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I don't mean builds just to counter NOED, I mean builds that give you actual reasons to break totems, using perks like Inner Healing or Clairvoyance to get some benefits.
To your other point, I'm not sure I understand what you mean. If the killer is defending the totem, then you can either go for a save or simply leave, and if the killer isn't defending the totem then you have the opportunity to cleanse? I'd love to hear a little more elaboration on that point so I can better understand it.
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You don't need to get hit to find NOED though, just look around for totems and if one is lit, NOED is there.
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And what exactly is the Killer doing during that time?
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NOED is not that strong, i agree with that. But this does not make it good design. You can use NOED with 3 slow-down perks, so maybe survivors will never have chance to cleanse totems.
But how i would change it? I think NOED should has time limit or it should work like NWO. You will need 4 stacks, so you will need hook everyone once for activate it at end game. So perk will reward you for your good gameplay.
But Bubba, who camped one survivor should not get second kill with NOED. Or if killer played so bad, they should not get rewards. This is my problem about this perk.
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Trying to find someone, hook someone, and camp there or go elsewhere.
if he go to searching others, you can just save hooked one and escape, if he camp there, there is plenty of times to break bone.
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I've essentially based my opinion off of the stats I've been taking.
I've been running Small Game for nearly 4 months and 300 games. I can show you the data, if you are interested.
NOED had a 20% appearance rate. Of those games, another 20% ended with NOED not adding any additional Kills.
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I'm less interested in how often people cleanse all five totems - as that's already not even the ideal counter to NOED - or even in how many kills the killer ended up getting, and more interested in what actually happened in those games.
For example- I've been running NOED myself as an informal sort of experiment, and there was a very interesting game where NOED did activate, and I got three kills when I'd previously been shaping up to get none. It'd be tempting to take that as evidence that NOED gives kills, but in reality, I was playing Trapper and NOED gave me nothing; someone was already injured when NOED activated and I was right on them, so neither half of NOED did anything, and the other two stepped in traps while going for a save, so NOED did nothing there either.
In my experience, NOED does very little. It gives you about one down, maybe two, and then it's either cleansed or people just leave.
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I did, very briefly, take stats on that.
NOED actually helped me in around 18% of my games. I counted helping me as giving me a down/hook.
Because I stopped playing on my own, this experiment was scrapped.
also, i did record the hooks for the last hundred games. that does sort of show how the match went.
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There's a lot of poorly designed perks. NOED gets attention cause it feels like punishment for successfully completing one side's objectives. It doesn't have to be a last ditch one sided game against a poor killer. Could be tooth and nail survivors fought for every gen done then...
Game says FU. Devs (not just these but a lot of game designers) never really got it into their heads that no likes getting one shot.
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Its funny that the possibility of certain survivor perks ( DS, DH, BT, UB ) being used in a trial, conditioned a whole generation of killer players and created the whole " nice" playstyle.
Many killers just play around the possibility of these perks existing, they dont wait till they actually witness those.
NOED has been around way longer and survivors just cant get it into their heads to maybe just prepare for it.
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There's nothing wrong with NOED, it's both counterable before and after it activates. Survivors just don't like to die after their made-up win condition of finishing 5 gens
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Don't forget deliverance and even kobe, you can't be sure till hook stage 2.
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3 slowdown perks and they cant fix gens? If that the case the problem is skill becuz on high mmr people vs sweat builds can repair all gens at high speed.
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2 thing that's off with noed's design.
1) the unpredictability. While yes you can counter noed by cleansing/remembering the spots of all totems, the thing is that's quite a timeconsuming task and every second you spend is a second the killer comes closer to "point of no return pressure"
Cleansing all totems and losing with a single gen left to see killer didn't have noed is just a feelbad.
If noed had something like "survivor scream and reveal their position whenever they cleanse a dull" would buff it while removing that uncertainty
2) sometimes you don't have time to cleanse all totems, specifically with a facecamping killer
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What about the other counters, though? Like going and cleansing it after it activates, by keeping track of where all the dulls are?
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As much as some have time to bless boons 24/7, it takes less time to destroy it.
It is a game mechanic, and I dont see here reasons to make some imaginary rules, that killer does not deserve a kill after 5gens done via noed, because he is bad?
I assume BT DH DS Adrenaline, etc. we could make the same statements why bad players dont need 2nd chance perks and go into us vs them …
It is plain simple. Rush gens or memorise location/do bones.
I personally in soloQ do bones when ever i find them.
I managed to countered some noeds and also by not finding last 2 totems before gens. It procced and killer went on rampage.
some you win, some you loose…
But everything that involves as secondary objective regarding just rushing gens and tbag on exit gates; saying its unfair, broken, needs a nerf…sorry lads.
*famous Cote quote*
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on average - it does
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Turn. Off. Post. Game. Chat.
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Reading all this, I just had an idea to "fix" this:
Make Noed Exposed Effect base kit, scrap the perk altogether. So when all gens were done, Exposed is applied, and when EGC starts (gate was opened), Exposed is removed again (which also means, no longer facing Noed when hatch was closed). This way, everyone knows that the killer will down you with one hit, so no longer any "surprise" if it happens. It would discourage finishing the last gen in the killers face. And it would encourage the survivors to open the gate, so 99ing a gate comes with a heavy price. If the killer camps while you are exposed, open a gate and go for the save wiht your BT.
What do you think?
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NOED is an endgame perk but compared to other endgame perks, getting it to proc requires no input from the killer.
NWO, for instance, requires you to hook all 4 survivors to get max value.
Remember Me requires you to hit the Obsession 4 times.
Blood Warden requires you to get a hook after EGC has already started.
NOED is: if 5 gens pop and 1 of 5 totems is still standing, you get a power up.
And that's another thing. Countering NOED is unrealistic. There are 5 totems; finding all 5 for a single perk that MIGHT be there is extremely time consuming, and in games where a match comes down to the last precious seconds, it's not feasible to do all 5 in time.
Another issue is the gameplay it encourages. If it's endgame, then your only objective is securing your kills. So... camping the hook with NOED is all the killer has. And if you're hooked next to NOED, then you're dead; it's basically the same as getting face camped by Bubba.
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