General Discussions
General Discussions
Remember old Undying? Sounds an awful lot like the way boons currently work.
Comments
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why do you want COH to be useless like the other boon perks??
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As long as survivors can infinitely place coh, it has to be useless.
If you want coh and other boon perks to not be useless then they need to be more like hexes where the killer destroys the totem with the boon.
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If it’s gonna be useless than why bother using the perk?? The survivor meta is not gonna change if the devs constantly keep nerfing survivor perks.
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Well they’ve tried but killers can’t ever approve.
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Because it's not an unhealthy mechanic, mostly.
Like I could talk at length about the intended design of boons and how they could be an extremely good addition to the game providing more texture, back-and-forth, and natural slowdown to every trial they're present in, but the core of why people are "so insistent on keeping" boons as a concept is because it's not an unhealthy mechanic.
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I get you want broken tools for survivor, but I've already explained I want devs to make boons destroyable and have counterplay and make effects of boons stronger rather than have boon perks be forced into uselessness because they are effectively uncounterable.
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With how useless the boons are except COH, idk why they people complain about infinite blessing.
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You literally just said you wanted COH to be useless...
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Because if you make them not infinitely relightable, they'd need a compensatory buff to stay relevant as an option. Adding a risk of permanently losing the perk, on top of the time investment of setting it up just makes too much drawback. Blanket nerfing boons also seems like an odd approach when only CoH is the problem.
The rest of the boons don't have sufficient pay-off to warrant tacking on such a risk. And both Exponential and Shadow Step are mechanical, not numerical, so both of those would need functional buffs that would balance out that added risk.
Which is overall way more work than adjusting CoH, and risks frustrating killers even more.
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It has to be made useless as long as it can be infinitely blessed.
You can't balance infinite healing without making the values low.
But hey keep ignoring the whole make boons stronger by allowing the killer to destroy them. There's no point in explaining further to someone who just wants broken survivor perks.
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I didn’t say I wanted broken survivor perks, I want perks that are not extremely situational like the other boons.
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This didn't age well after boons were released (though I thought they said more about Undying).
Though I wouldn't compare boons and hexes. Yes boons can be reliant an infinite amount of times (which I think is fine except for CoH) but require finding a totem and wasting time creating it. Hex totems take no time to set up and also give a map wide effect.
I'd like CoH to have a set amount of times it can be used but every other boon totem can be used as much as possible.
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Do you have data? Or is it just what you think
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Boons base mechanics are a problem. They should not work on multiple floors since that just allows a few specific maps/main buildings where they're almost impossible to get rid of without throwing away all your pressure.
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Boons are fine. CoH is fine.
Can you imagine how much pain to patricks ego would that be?
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What am I reading, I mean I read only the title, nothing else matters. 😭
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You can have old undying back if you make cleansing take 1 second and totems give off a sound
Or you can nerf boons and make them take 14 seconds to stomp while being undetectable.
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They listed Ruin's usage as a factor in nerfing it, yet won't apply the same to DH. Boons are just another example of this one sided thinking.
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I am once again reminding everyone that boons are a fine enough mechanic, and it is CoH that is op. Please, stop crying about boons lol the devs have made it clear they are fine with how BOONS work, and so do most good players. CoH is a different story and it definitely needs nerfed. Besides that, doing possibly 5 totems each taking 14 seconds was still bananas and people need to remember not every team they face is a 4man, hell even doing like 3 boons could be throwing the game for your team. Please stop blaming every little loss on things lol sometimes it can just be skill issue 🤷♀️
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um they literally just announced that Dead hard is being looked into.
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CoH isnt a big deal honestly. It is another symptom of a problem that's been around forever. Perk stacking, and especially meta perk stacking. Survivors should have options for dealing with the killer, no doubt -- but they dont all need to use the same perks. Get rid of perk stacking and the utility CoH provides will decline drastically
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Oh, you mean the way the Developers "reworked" keys after removing the hatch from spawning depending on the number of gens done?
I'm "sure" the developers will immediately fix the other boon perks to be useful after they remove the ability to place boons infinitely.
Sorry, but I prefer at least 1 useful boon and 3 useless boons, compared to 4 useless boons.
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NOW it is. Ruin was nerfed, what, two years ago? That's two years of pretending DH's issues don't exist. Now that they've announced it, just how long do you think it'll take for them to actually DO anything about it? Six months? Another year? For reference, look how long it took them to address keys after the mori change.
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Yeah, fair point.
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Good point.
Was it a good change though or a substantial mix up? not really.
Healthy changes should broaden the available play styles not narrow them, that's what makes stale meta a narrow selection of viable play options.
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Yeah, and Nurse was being looked into and it took three years - and they broke her so badly they had to killswitch her.
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Yes, but that's only for the killer. Boons are "OK" because it's for survivors.
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I'll put it like this, I don't think I have ever seen a boon actually won the game on its own. However, killer hex perks I have seen actually won the game for killer every day i've played.
All you need to do is play both sides to see the difference. Killer hex perk are massively game changing. NOED can change a match from a 0K to a 4K, a Blight with Undying/Ruin is unbeatable.
As survivor, you can't go in with a boon perk and have an advantage strong enough to guarantee your win.
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Boons are actually worse to be honest. If you were lucky, you could get rid of Undying + the other hex perk by only doing 2 bones.Worst case scenario, your team would have to cleanse all 5 totems to get rid of the hex, whichj would take a long time but it would end eventually.
With boons, you can snuff the totem as many times as you want and you won't get rid of it. That's the reason why I always say that the only counterplay to boons is by tunneling the user, since it's the only way to get rid of them for good on a match.
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Killers should be able to stomp boons flat
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It's hard to see the value of boons when you're only 1/4 of the team. You don't see when someone else uses it, how or how often they use it.
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What do you think I'm thinking?
I'm just asking if you can prove that use of Hexes completely fell off once Boons were implemented because I don't really see that being true.. Ruin is still popular and powerful so long as it stays up and a lot of killers run Hex heavy builds that punish survivors who cleanse/bless over them what with Haunted Grounds/Retribution.
But again, if there's some kind of hard evidence showing that killers are just not using Hexes at all anymore please let me know/show me. I still use Hexes whenever I'm feeling like it on killer it's literally just up to my mood but I really don't think Boons made Hexes obsolete. Circle of Healing, the problem child, has made hit and run playstyle on killer obsolete but boons for the most part seem like fair trades. If boons could only be used once literally nobody would ever use them so that's just not going to happen or if it does then they will go obsolete.
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Boon defenders are blockheads. The concept IS fundamentally flawed, they should be removed, and the playerbase will continue to shrink every day they delude themselves about CoH being ok.
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I honestly can't tell if survivors are just this smooth brained or are lying thru their teeth at this point lmao.
Boons are so stupid good because they support the whole team and yourself, takes aggro away from your team and onto the boons if the killer really wants to deal with it, and all at the small cost of 14seconds of time that as survivor you have a ton of(unless people are dying fast).
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Like you said it was an unhealthy change, and due to such I hope the perk is changed soon.
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Yeah and NoEd should teleport you to a survivor, and save the best for last should get exposed at full stacks. These perks are far too situational.
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Noed is actually really good against solos.
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I still stand by what I said. Boon perks are not that strong except COH.
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It's simply because CoH is the one reason a killer must snuff boons or tunnel/camp the survivors.
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COH is problematic because
- It gives free healing to all survivors, at the cost of only one survivor perk. Perks like kindred only give a benefit (aura reading) to other survivors in the capacity that it helps you directly because you're on the hook. Otherwise it only works for you the rest of the time.
- Unlike prove/leader/etc, the survivor who brought it in doesn't need to be around for you use it. You benefit just from being around the totem.
- When it's set up, all survivors instantly know where to go because it's highlighted for them! Compare this with other aura perks (bond, better together, etc) that only reveal information in a limited radius
- It allows heals faster than regular self-care or healing via another survivor; so not only does it allow the same thing as self-care, but faster and more universal too
- It has a wide area in which it can work, unlike the extremely localised effects of prove/leader/urban/etc. Imagine prove thyself being buffed that it worked on all gens, regardless if you were there or not!
- It doesn't run out like medkits, etc
- It can never be eliminated by the killer, unlike items which could be destroyed by Franklins, or other once-only perks. This can be set up multiple times, to work again and again and again... whereas DS only works once, BT only works for unhooks (so one survivor can only use it 6x max in a trial), Adrenaline works once, Unbreakable works once, etc
All of those effects combined into a single perk makes it exceptionally OP. And then when you have multiple survivors bringing it into a trial (so you could have 4 totems booned), that makes for ridiculous matches.
So for survivors saying it's fine, please explain this BS?
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Well, I'm not a survivor and I don't say that CoH is fine, but I do have to contest some of your points there.
A fair few of these aren't really problems with CoH, they're just rundowns of how the boon totem mechanic works. So, my main question is, do you also think the other boon perks are equally problematic for the same reasons, or is CoH unique? If the latter, why?
I have my own answers, of course, I'd just like to know where we're both coming from before getting stuck in.
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A fair few of these aren't really problems with CoH, they're just rundowns of how the boon totem mechanic works.
You say that, but you don't single any out as an example? All of the issues I raised are problematic with COH, and can be corrected with that perk alone.
You're making an assumption that certain features have to be part of boon totems (i.e. global effects); that assumption is unfounded as yet. There's literally no reason why boons cannot be limited to apply to certain scopes alone.
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That's not the assumption I'm making- the assumption that I'm making is that the features you highlight aren't problematic on the other three boon perks. Things like giving the other survivors its effects, the perk holder not needing to be nearby, it not running out or being permanently removable, and being highlighted to the team are all parts of the boon totem mechanic that are not problematic on the other three.
My take on CoH is that you cannot fix its problems with sweeping changes to boons as a mechanic. The other boons are balanced around the fact that the killer has to be nearby for it to be used to its fullest; Shadow Step's aura hide is somewhat useful at range but the perk excels at being able to cloak you in chase, Dark Theory is only going to be useful in chase due to what it does, and Exponential isn't really useful ever but basically requires you to go down and be slugged in its radius, or at least nearby. In these scenarios, the killer knows where the boon is (at least roughly) and the back-and-forth snuff/relight counterplay is theoretically able to begin.
Now contrast to CoH. It already ignores how boons are set up to function, by being at its strongest when the killer has no idea where it is and being a perk you want to use away from the killer, so all changing the mechanic does is aim a hefty nerf at three perks which don't need it, and only maybe actually fix CoH.
The perk itself needs a rework, not the mechanic it's tied to. To bring it back to the topic of the OP, they didn't fix Undying by messing with the hex totem mechanic, they fixed Undying.
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Its basically a meta race between the two sides that will complain about the strongest perk/combo in the other's arsenal and will continue to the end of time. And to be fair Killer meta also got changed due to buffed DMS/Pain Resonance and look at the complaints that got.
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they didn't? they became way more common because booning an hex takes too much time.
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Well, I don't necessarily agree they aren't problematic on the other perks, it still doesn't change my point re: COH. Each of the things I've mentioned apply to COH. I never used the term exclusively, and my point was clearly to highlight how many things are being combined into one perk. Even if you want to attribute a few of the things to global boon mechanics, that still doesn't negate how OP COH is being as it builds on top of those.
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Some people can’t ever be pleased.
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They were camping and tunnel way before boons
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Right because camping/tunneling didn’t exist before COH.
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Those complaints were bs too
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