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The Legion Buffs! (Reasoning and Justification) FINAL THREAD UPDATE!
Introduction
I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors.The Legion Solution!
I figured out a way to make The Legion a lethal killer while having counter play!Deep Wound Status Effect:
-If you was previously healthy and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll be able to mend yourself to the injured state. However, if you was previously injured and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll NOT be able to mend yourself to the injured state, only a teammate can mend you to the injured state.
-The DW timer will decrease at its normal speed when in a chase.
Balancing The Changes Above...
-The DW timer will be increased to 60 seconds. Additionally, if you was previously injured and you was inflicted by the DW status effect, you'll see the auras of all survivors in the trial and you'll see "Find Help!" At the bottom of the screen to aid newer players on what they need to do. The survivors auras and the "Find Help!" Will fade away when you are no longer DW'd.
Reasoning: (It's in the spoiler)
Basically, the DW status effect is not much of a time waster (which is the developers intentions) because you can easily mend to the injured state. Additionally, survivors wouldn't heal to the healthy state as the DW status effect has the same effect regardless of what your health state is.
My DW changes solve the problems above by: (There's now a punishment to not healing against The Legion)
If a survivor decides not to heal and is inflicted by the DW status effect, they will be punished as they won't be able to mend themselves and will need to waste more time running to a teammate.
The Legion's Power:
-Every time you use Frenzy on a survivor without the DW status effect, Frenzy will last 2.5 seconds longer than normal, your Frenzy movement speed is increased by 5%, and your Frenzy meter will be refilled. These effects are not permanent and will reset whenever Frenzy ends.
Balancing The Changes Above...
-Frenzy will now last 10 seconds and will take 30 seconds to automatically refill. Additionally, Frenzy can only be used when the power gauge is fully charged.
Reasoning: (It's in the spoiler)
The Legion has a power that encourages tagging multiple survivors but was extremely inefficient as tagging multiple survivors is extremely difficult to perform. Additionally, (let's assume the developers don't add my DW changes above) tagging multiple survivors would waste more time than what time you have wasted by DW'ing every survivor since mending is a cake walk. Therefore, tagging a single survivor with Frenzy is the most efficient method for downing survivors which negates the point of the power: Spreading the damage.
How will my changes to The Legion's power solve the problems above: (Tagging multiple survivors will be faster and more do-able)
Since these changes will make The Legion able to tag multiple survivors more efficient and of course faster. You'll now be rewarded for going to survivor to survivor and now tagging a single survivor will now be inefficient due to how easy it is to tag every survivor. Remember, easy doesn't mean you'll always tag every survivor when you use Frenzy, it just means it's more likely of an outcome if you have proper movement and the survivors are in a bad position.
NOTE: The Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy is there to give survivors a chance to recover if you happen to tag everyone assuming if my DW changes was also added in to this change as well. If my DW changes wasn't not added in then we wouldn't need the Frenzy charge nerf and requirement to use Frenzy.
Quality Of Life Changes:
-Double stun is removed so pick one developers, attack cool down or fatigue.
REMEMBER: These numbers can be changed later on if it's OP or underpowered. So, please just ignore the numbers as they are mainly place holders and take everything you have read with a grain of salt.
@Janick, please give this another read!
Feedback and criticism is appreciated as always but please don't bash me if you don't like something. Additionally, don't LOL rate this thread without saying why you disagree because I tried really REALLY hard and I put a crap ton of thought into this so don't disappoint me!
Videos on why The Legion is a weak killer
Here's a few videos by Monto, he says everything better and goes into detail in each video. The first two videos go into how the killer is not viable by destroying The Legion as a survivor.VIDEO 1.)
https://youtu.be/9oy7ZmFrsIEVIDEO 2.)
https://youtu.be/ipiUWXPyM7oTru3ta1ent SPEAKS the TRUTH: He says Legion is good against BAD survivors.
https://youtu.be/8ReHiCNSUwQComments
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I disagree with being able to down survivors with frenzy but that's it, all the other changes feel pretty fair.Post edited by AChaoticKiller on6
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I feel like Frenzy should down survivors if they are injured not when they are in the BT status effect. I made this change because survivors don't feel like they should heal because a frenzy attack does the same thing regardless if you are healthy or not.AChaoticKiller said:I disagree with being able to down survivors with frenzy but that's it, all the or he changes feel pretty fair.6 -
With your aura-reading, it will be first hit and run, let the survivor mend, only to come back and hit them again to down them. Over that, you also want mending to work as healing, which will take 64 seconds to completely heal themselves with sloppy butcher, not forgetting how fast the killer can attack, move, vault pallets and read auras with Nurses Calling. It's absurd.5
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It's been 1 day. Let people figure him out first. He seems REALLY strong and letting him down survivors from Frenzy would be OP. Maybe as an add-on but I think one of his add-ons already increases the amount the bar goes down after a hit.
Also if you make Mending an heal action then it can be affected by buffs/debuffs. I'm sure you are thinking "Sloppy should work" and stuff which is good for killer, but then keep in mind you can't insta-heal mend right now, or use a medkit. It's a flat 16 seconds to Mend. If it were a healing action then people would be able to Mend in like 4 seconds with a purple medkit and good add-ons.
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The idea behind the Fenzy attack making it difficult to down survivors is cause the power is ment to spread the pain around the survivors. Not tunnel one survivor down.
The idea from the survivor side, is that this killer isn't meant to be played as a chaser and tunneler. You frenzy.. spread the hits around.. Then hunt the injured.
You aren't ment to spend the whole time chasing the same survivor while frenzied. That is why you lose the power if you hit someone who has a deep wound. If you are chasing the survivor to hit them 4 times while in frenzy so you can down them... You are playing the killer wrong. In fact, you are playing them horribly wrong.
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Just hitting a survivor with a regular attack shouldn't drain his power, maybe do the opposite and recharge it a little bit instead. With mend being healing he might be a little op, I'd love to be able to use nurse's on him, but I think it'll be too much. Maybe give him a passive ability of being able to see mending survivors within 16-24 m radius, this way survivors will be forced to run away further from him, thus draining deep wound meter more As for auras, I think those markers look way cooler. I also wouldn't mind 115% speed.
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You're not getting the point, if you wanna actually down a survivor, you'll have to attack them normally (without Frenzy) when they are injured or let their bleed out bar drain to 0. Both things are extremely difficult since a 110% M1 chase is rather impossible since survivors can get more loops in and a survivor can mend anytime they want.TheBean said:The idea behind the Fenzy attack making it difficult to down survivors is cause the power is ment to spread the pain around the survivors. Not tunnel one survivor down.
The idea from the survivor side, is that this killer isn't meant to be played as a chaser and tunneler. You frenzy.. spread the hits around.. Then hunt the injured.
You aren't ment to spend the whole time chasing the same survivor while frenzied. That is why you lose the power if you hit someone who has a deep wound. If you are chasing the survivor to hit them 4 times while in frenzy so you can down them... You are playing the killer wrong. In fact, you are playing them horribly wrong.
4 -
To heal with a teammate, it would take 16+16=32 seconds.Khalednazari said:With your aura-reading, it will be first hit and run, let the survivor mend, only to come back and hit them again to down them. Over that, you also want mending to work as healing, which will take 64 seconds to completely heal themselves with sloppy butcher, not forgetting how fast the killer can attack, move, vault pallets and read auras with Nurses Calling. It's absurd.
To heal by yourself, it would take 16+32=48 seconds.
With sloppy butcher, 20+40=60 seconds to heal by yourself.
I understand where you are coming from but again, these values can be changed. However, I just want more synergy with the killer because he doesn't have much perk synergy.
4 -
Mending shouldn't be considered healing. The healing changes were already crippling as it is, and the number of inconsistencies regarding killer powers and what is considered healing is getting ridiculous. The killer already makes injuring multiple survivors easy. To have that synergize with Sloppy Butcher, NC, Coulrophobia and their own add ons? Too much. Way too much.
Agree with 1 and 3 though. Kinda iffy on 2.
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@Nickenzie said:
IntroductionI been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors. How Can We Make The Legion Better?
1.) When performing a normal M1 attack on a survivor without using your power, you won't drain your power gauge.Reasoning:
(Spoiler)2.) When using Frenzy on a injured survivor, they will be put into dying state instead of gaining the deep wound status effect.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)3.) Get rid of the double stun when attacking a survivor with the deep wound status effect. Pick one developers, the fatigue or the attack cool down.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)4.) The mending action should be considered as a healing action and mending should take the same amount of time as a regular healing action.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)5.) Show survivor's auras that don't have the deep wound status effect after instead of having a symbol in the direction of where the survivor is at.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)That's it, yes we may not need all of these changes but we do need most of them to make him better as a killer. Please tell me what you think below with reasoning and justification.
Don't say, "You're playing him/her wrong." Guys I watched a SWF and they weren't sweaty, they was just playing together to have fun. The killer got a few 1k and 2k by spreading the damage, the killer was obviously good but he wasn't able to get hooks easily.
Hello
Thank you very much for the feedback. Very appreciated, especially the nonsarcastic or positive tone.
Although I can confirm that everything that you mentioned was tested out. Most of the ideas were actually how he was initially. We made him the way he is to give a chance to survivors to escape. He was simply unstoppable and not fun to play against. I will not explain all the reasoning for each point but I can guaranty that the whole design team sat down and discussed those before coming up with the current iteration. (I might explain further in a stream)
I can also confirm that the TR expand to 32M when he applies the Deep Wound effect, it was omitted from the Power description. (extending over 32M was useless and distracting because you did not have time to reach them) Text will be fixed.
We are also reviewing the pallet animation, it was done that way to make it feel good on 1st person, although it has a much bigger impact on gameplay than anticipated. Thank you again!
34 -
OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.
Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
19 -
Never. Blinded by 4k greed.Juya said:OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.
Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
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@ThrillOfTheHunk said:
Juya said:OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.
Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
Never. Blinded by 4k greed.
No, no. It's more like "Imusttunnel" syndrome.
The legion is just like the pig as in, it is at your disadvantage to tunnel a single survivor the whole game.
6 -
Tell me how you'll down a survivor? By winning a 110% M1 chase (which us difficult because you are very easy to loop) or hope they don't mend? You can also focus down a survivor which believe it or not, is the most efficient method. Don't get me wrong, it's good to get multiple survivors but usually you wanna down them.Juya said:@ThrillOfTheHunk said:
Juya said:OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.
Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
Never. Blinded by 4k greed.
No, no. It's more like "Imusttunnel" syndrome.
The legion is just like the pig as in, it is at your disadvantage to tunnel a single survivor the whole game.
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Thank you for the clarification and transparency! I know you tried REALLY hard to make this killer and I respect that, but he's just off a little off. Watch Monto's video (the bottom one) to see his problems exactly, he just doesn't have a way to secure hooks.Janick said:@Nickenzie said:
IntroductionI been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors. How Can We Make The Legion Better?
1.) When performing a normal M1 attack on a survivor without using your power, you won't drain your power gauge.Reasoning:
(Spoiler)2.) When using Frenzy on a injured survivor, they will be put into dying state instead of gaining the deep wound status effect.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)3.) Get rid of the double stun when attacking a survivor with the deep wound status effect. Pick one developers, the fatigue or the attack cool down.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)4.) The mending action should be considered as a healing action and mending should take the same amount of time as a regular healing action.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)5.) Show survivor's auras that don't have the deep wound status effect after instead of having a symbol in the direction of where the survivor is at.
Reasoning:
(Spoiler)That's it, yes we may not need all of these changes but we do need most of them to make him better as a killer. Please tell me what you think below with reasoning and justification.
Don't say, "You're playing him/her wrong." Guys I watched a SWF and they weren't sweaty, they was just playing together to have fun. The killer got a few 1k and 2k by spreading the damage, the killer was obviously good but he wasn't able to get hooks easily.
Hello
Thank you very much for the feedback. Very appreciated, especially the nonsarcastic or positive tone.
Although I can confirm that everything that you mentioned was tested out. Most of the ideas were actually how he was initially. We made him the way he is to give a chance to survivors to escape. He was simply unstoppable and not fun to play against. I will not explain all the reasoning for each point but I can guaranty that the whole design team sat down and discussed those before coming up with the current iteration. (I might explain further in a stream)
I can also confirm that the TR expand to 32M when he applies the Deep Wound effect, it was omitted from the Power description. (extending over 32M was useless and distracting because you did not have time to reach them) Text will be fixed.
We are also reviewing the pallet animation, it was done that way to make it feel good on 1st person, although it has a much bigger impact on gameplay than anticipated. Thank you again!
8 -
Id say make it a red addon to down from frenzy but allow the killer to not be stunned if they let go of frenzy early0
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With your suggestion you would create an unstoppable beast, I doubt that any survivor will survive this killer and that's unfun for both sides.
Also, you did a huge mistake by comparing the Legion with the Nurse.
The Nurse is a killer with a high skill cap, you have to invest a lot of time to become decent with her. Everyone remembers his first time nurse against good survivors: absolute bully fest.
The Legion on the other hand is a pretty simple and easy to handle killer. U can't say "look, nurse has this, give it Legion aswell".1 -
@Juya said:
OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
Have you actually played as Legion against good survivors? By the time you've tagged everyone with your power and start committing to a chase as a 110% move speed killer (with no hatchets or teleports) then 3/4th of the survivors have already mended their way out of Deep Wound or are damn close. You've wasted just as much of your time as you have theirs.
The legion is just like the pig as in, it is at your disadvantage to tunnel a single survivor the whole game.
No, Legion is more like a Class Photo Freddy. You can tag everyone. Great. You're still loopable Freddy. Except it's even EASIER to snap out of Deep Wound than Dream World (you don't need a generator, ally, or self-care), you move at 110 movement speed, and you get a one time location ping as opposed to seeing the auras of tagged survivors. Unthreatening like Freddy, but to the point where the optimal strategy is to not even heal to full state and to simply gen rush after mending.
Even if I get absolutely RNG screwed as The Pig and the survivors get their RBT off on their first Jigsaw box, I've still stalled the game more than anything Freddy or Legion can do given how you actually have to go out of your way and position yourself next to a non-objective to remove the RBT, assuming I wasn't an idiot and hooked the survivor directly next to a Jigsaw box.
And atleast with the Pig when I chase someone with my 115 movespeed and my ambush dash mindgames that can actually down, the survivors know I mean business. I'm not going to just tickle them and run away. That alone is more pressure than what the Legion can apply.
Post edited by HP150 on9 -
I'm talking about the stun time for The Legion. Nurse doesn't get doubled stunned unlike The Legion and he doesn't have a reason to suffer it. Additionally in, the thread, I said we don't need everyone suggestion I made, just a few would do.DwightsLifeMatters said:With your suggestion you would create an unstoppable beast, I doubt that any survivor will survive this killer and that's unfun for both sides.
Also, you did a huge mistake by comparing the Legion with the Nurse.
The Nurse is a killer with a high skill cap, you have to invest a lot of time to become decent with her. Everyone remembers his first time nurse against good survivors: absolute bully fest.
The Legion on the other hand is a pretty simple and easy to handle killer. U can't say "look, nurse has this, give it Legion aswell".1 -
@Nickenzie said:
Tell me how you'll down a survivor? By winning a 110% M1 chase (which us difficult because you are very easy to loop) or hope they don't mend? You can also focus down a survivor which believe it or not, is the most efficient method. Don't get me wrong, it's good to get multiple survivors but usually you wanna down them.If they are forced to stop in order to mend you can close the distance on them. If they ignore it they go down and you catch them. You don't have to directly chase a survivor if they need to mend, just pressure them enough so they ignore the timer or you and you win.
Also you can still win mind games with slow killers. It's hard but still possible.
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Yeah but if you chase them to apply pressure, the timer stops.thesuicidefox said:@Nickenzie said:
Tell me how you'll down a survivor? By winning a 110% M1 chase (which us difficult because you are very easy to loop) or hope they don't mend? You can also focus down a survivor which believe it or not, is the most efficient method. Don't get me wrong, it's good to get multiple survivors but usually you wanna down them.If they are forced to stop in order to mend you can close the distance on them. If they ignore it they go down and you catch them. You don't have to directly chase a survivor if they need to mend, just pressure them enough so they ignore the timer or you and you win.
Have you watch this video yet? Look at how laughable this killer is.https://youtu.be/9oy7ZmFrsIE
5 -
@Nickenzie said:
AChaoticKiller said:I disagree with being able to down survivors with frenzy but that's it, all the or he changes feel pretty fair.
I feel like Frenzy should down survivors if they are injured not when they are in the BT status effect. I made this change because survivors don't feel like they should heal because a frenzy attack does the same thing regardless if you are healthy or not.
That why you shouldn't use the frenzy against injured survivor
0 -
Nice read. Enjoyable thread with lots of valid points.
I think he's strong. The only problem is his double stun (It's literally Nurse's old Swipe & Stun bug but it's intentional, which makes it even worse). It's annoying when you swipe someone for the second time, they jump over a pallet, and you're forced into not 1, but 2 stuns, then a pallet break. It's negatiting to the fact that he's a 110% movement speed Killer, and his power ends up hurting him more. When having the 4.4m/s, you have to have the power make up for it. I'm all for the stun (It's obvious it's needed) but the double duration just outweighs a lot of his pros.
And, man, just buff him to 115%. Like, it's obvious he needs it. Fix the damn fast vault too, it's so easy to 360 him around pallets and windows when he vaults with Frenzy.
Otherwise, he's really good. I think we're underestimating him. It's really easy to locate survivors. Distressing works well on him. I'd probably pick M&A over it though.
Played him considerably, and the trick is the beginning of the match. Injure one, use your big TM to find the rest. Rinse and repeat, once 2 or more are injured, go for the hook. Also, Thanataphobia, Stridor, etc, are all good perks on him. Feelsgoodman (Actually tho, for once a Killer I like.)
Edit: Also, pointing out in Monto's video. WHY DOESN'T MENDING MAKE ANY SOUND
3 -
@Dragonredking said:
@Nickenzie said:
AChaoticKiller said:I disagree with being able to down survivors with frenzy but that's it, all the or he changes feel pretty fair.
I feel like Frenzy should down survivors if they are injured not when they are in the BT status effect. I made this change because survivors don't feel like they should heal because a frenzy attack does the same thing regardless if you are healthy or not.
That why you shouldn't use the frenzy against injured survivor
So you expect Legion to basically chase them as a hag with no power when they're injured? Is that really what you're saying?
4 -
@TheBean said:
The idea behind the Fenzy attack making it difficult to down survivors is cause the power is ment to spread the pain around the survivors. Not tunnel one survivor down.The idea from the survivor side, is that this killer isn't meant to be played as a chaser and tunneler. You frenzy.. spread the hits around.. Then hunt the injured.
You aren't ment to spend the whole time chasing the same survivor while frenzied. That is why you lose the power if you hit someone who has a deep wound. If you are chasing the survivor to hit them 4 times while in frenzy so you can down them... You are playing the killer wrong. In fact, you are playing them horribly wrong.
The problem is that the mend is a joke if you let them run off and fix it. It stops while you're mending and you're able to mend yourself. There is no justification for that. Either it needs to run down during a chase and runs down while mending or you can't mend yourself.
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@Janick
The Killer itself is fine and well designed, imo (though that may just be the exhilarating thrill of vaulting pallets speaking, haha).The problem is that Deep Wounds is by far one of the least threatening status effects in the game.
If survivors couldn't just heal themselves out of Deep Wounds (need a medkit or ally), or the timer kept going during the actual mending process, The Legion would be able to apply the effect, break chase, and possibly have a chance of the survivor going down from the status effect.
Without add-ons, the effect itself is very non-threatening.
To add to this, you've replaced the threatening nature of Borrowed Time (already the meta rescue perk) with one of the weakest status effects in the game.
9 -
24 hours and people are already b!tching.
The concept of a TEST build is quite elusive.6 -
@Juya said:
@ThrillOfTheHunk said:
Juya said:OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.
Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
Never. Blinded by 4k greed.
No, no. It's more like "Imusttunnel" syndrome.
The legion is just like the pig as in, it is at your disadvantage to tunnel a single survivor the whole game.
Agreed.
Painful.
But true.2 -
The sheer amount of complaining about Legion is the forums is a completely different thing to providing feedback. Admittedly, the original post for this thread wasnt bad.
0 -
@Arsoul said:
The sheer amount of complaining about Legion is the forums is a completely different thing to providing feedback. Admittedly, the original post for this thread wasnt bad.
feed·back
/ˈfēdˌbak/Submit
noun
1.
information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
synonyms: response, reaction, comments, criticism11 -
The people who say that his power is not meant to down people.
Have you tried downing a decent survivor with 110%MS? It won't happen and no, bamboozle won't help you with it.
14 -
You're awesome.HP150 said:@Arsoul said:
The sheer amount of complaining about Legion is the forums is a completely different thing to providing feedback. Admittedly, the original post for this thread wasnt bad.
feed·back
/ˈfēdˌbak/Submit
noun
1.
information about reactions to a product, a person's performance of a task, etc., used as a basis for improvement.
synonyms: response, reaction, comments, criticism 4 -
They seem fun to play as but I'd still increase their base level speed and give them an ultra-rare add-on that lets frenzy down injured survivors.
1 -
Frenzy should be able to down injured survivors but not down survivors who are in the deep wound status effect. This would encourage survivors to heal to the healthy state instead of running around injured.MhhBurgers said:The people who say that his power is not meant to down people.
Have you tried downing a decent survivor with 110%MS? It won't happen and no, bamboozle won't help you with it.
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The game isn't balanced around a high skill level apparently, since the killer as to feed off of survivors mistakes (as most of them do).3
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I don't want this killer to be Nurse 2.0, I just want him to either:JanTheMan said:The game isn't balanced around a high skill level apparently, since the killer as to feed off of survivors mistakes (as most of them do).
A.) Make his power slow the game down more (the developers' intentions).
B.) Make his power more deadly.2 -
Stopped reading at point 2. To think killers claim survivors are entitled...
Imagine that. You have an injured survivor, and you have a killer with 120% movement speed and can vault pallets and now can use that ability to down people too.
That doesn't sound overpoweted at all.
It's interesting reading these suggestions the past few days. Killer mains basically want an unstoppable monster, balance be damned. Next killer might as well just be a win button, and when you press M2 you automatically win the game. It's the only way they'll be happy.6 -
Just don't be running around injured my friend. If you are able to mend to the injured state, you should be able heal to the healthy state to prevent yourself from being downed. If that is OP, then maybe we can make the survivor unable to mend (If they're put into the deep wound status effect from the injured state) since they are injured to a point where they can't mend themselves.The_Crusader said:Stopped reading at point 2. To think killers claim survivors are entitled...
Imagine that. You have an injured survivor, and you have a killer with 120% movement speed and can vault pallets and now can use that ability to down people too.
That doesn't sound overpoweted at all.
It's interesting reading these suggestions the past few days. Killer mains basically want an unstoppable monster, balance be damned. Next killer might as well just be a win button, and when you press M2 you automatically win the game. It's the only way they'll be happy.4 -
@Janick
"Most of the ideas were actually how he was initially. We made him the way he is to give a chance to survivors to escape. He was simply unstoppable and not fun to play against. I will not explain all the reasoning for each point but I can guaranty that the whole design team sat down and discussed those before coming up with the current iteration. (I might explain further in a stream)"
Wait what?
Please do explain in a stream. That sounds like you created a killer that could run fast and vault pallets and then realized he was too powerful and scaled him back.
If that was the case I'm curious how such a killer could ever make it past the idea stage. Or was it a case of make a fun power and then nerf/buff it to make it fit into the game?
I'm curious how the design process for a killer goes and how this one came about. Vaulting pallets...that was a pretty crazy idea. I always thought that would be forbiden.Post edited by The_Crusader on2 -
Please stop complaining about the killer or else I will complain about your complain by complaining some more.
For me, Legion problem is not enough pressure. Mending takes too little time, frenzy require tagging multiple survivor to be more effective, but survivors can know that they are playing against legion by just look at the DW bar. Decent survivor already know that they can't stick together and spread out is safer in general.
My idea:
1) Different walk cycle in DW state"" and hide the bleed out bar. Without bleed out bar, Legion won't be exposed early game, survivor won't be notified if their teammate is in DW and only can tell if they are nearby to observe it.
2) Make self mending longer and mending by other significantly shorter so that it is better to have someone mend you. Survivor in DW state see teammate aura, so survivor can make a choice by either hiding well and waste more time mending or run to teammate and risk the possibility of leading Legion to teammate.
I know both of my idea is kind of difficult to do. They did said making new animation takes up a lot of resources that they could not simply do it. Seeing teammate aura in DW also directly buff borrowed time, which is already been buff when Legion come out and annoying to deal with at the first place.1 -
OH YEAH, I GOT 10 LOLS ON MY OP! Sorry I had to point that out lol.2
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@Juya said:
OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.
What is the point of having a power as a 110% killer if it's not suppose to kill...
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Downing survivors that are injured with frenzy would be too much. Survivors have absolutely no defense when the legion is in frenzy mode, he is comparable to Nurse that way, only he struggles with dowing survivors. But that would make him too good. If anything, if an injured survivor gets hit by frenzy, they should immediately lose like 30% of the deep wounds meter, but not more. I agree with 1 and 3, that would be enough to make him viable honestly. Maybe increase his speed to 115%, then he would be really, really good.
There is one addon though that allows the Legion to only need three hits while in frenzy mode instead of four in order to down a survivor. If they built that add on into his base kit he would also become viable, I believe.What I really don't like about this killer is that it almost doesn't matter at all how a survivor does during a chase against The Legion. If he's in frenzy mode, it doesn't matter what you do because he can just ignore any defense survivors have. If he's in normal mode, well than sure survivors can fight back. But since he only has 110% movements speed he is very easily loopable, so it's pretty much just wait until The Legion gets his Frenzy back and then goes for you again while in frenzy mode, and then you can't fight back as survivor anymore since he'll hit you anyways, so you might as well just run in a straight line as survivor again.
So honestly, buffing his lethality to much so he becomes a top tier killer, would probably make him the most hated killer, far more than even Doctor. Maybe I'm wrong though, but trying to survive against a killer in which the length of the chase pretty much does not depend on you as a survivor at all, but only depends on how the killer works is not very fun.3 -
I'm pretty sure the original concept of the "power" was for it to give the killer a sprint burst and to vault pallets, then the devs backed up because it was "op" and came with all this BS about d̶e̶e̶p̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶n̶d̶s barely noticeable papercuts, hitting crowded survivors, and the heart beat of non papercutted survivors to "balance" it and to give a nice boost to BT to boot, because they are afraid of releasing another killer with the power level of billy or, god forbid, the nurse.
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@Janick said:
Hello
Thank you very much for the feedback. Very appreciated, especially the nonsarcastic or positive tone.
Although I can confirm that everything that you mentioned was tested out. Most of the ideas were actually how he was initially. We made him the way he is to give a chance to survivors to escape. He was simply unstoppable and not fun to play against. I will not explain all the reasoning for each point but I can guaranty that the whole design team sat down and discussed those before coming up with the current iteration. (I might explain further in a stream)
I can also confirm that the TR expand to 32M when he applies the Deep Wound effect, it was omitted from the Power description. (extending over 32M was useless and distracting because you did not have time to reach them) Text will be fixed.
We are also reviewing the pallet animation, it was done that way to make it feel good on 1st person, although it has a much bigger impact on gameplay than anticipated. Thank you again!
I personally think you did "too much" to give survivors a chance.
Survivors can mend hidden even from nurse calling, and they will be downed only if they forget to heal, unles the killer tunnel them at 110% speed...
I really think that just changing those features will balance the killer a lot more:
1- let the killer see the aura of survivors mending if they are out of his terror radius or if he have nurse calling. (remember this is now borrow time and it will be going on other killers too, you are nerfing nurse calling now)
2- When not in a chase, the DWE bar decrise even wile healing. just that can fix the killer balance problem in my ipinion.1 -
If you are injured and you're attacked by The Legion's power, you should lose the ability to mend yourself. However, other survivors can still mend you but you're too injured to do it yourself. How does that sound?ad19970 said:Downing survivors that are injured with frenzy would be too much. Survivors have absolutely no defense when the legion is in frenzy mode, he is comparable to Nurse that way, only he struggles with dowing survivors. But that would make him too good. If anything, if an injured survivor gets hit by frenzy, they should immediately lose like 30% of the deep wounds meter, but not more. I agree with 1 and 3, that would be enough to make him viable honestly. Maybe increase his speed to 115%, then he would be really, really good.
There is one addon though that allows the Legion to only need three hits while in frenzy mode instead of four in order to down a survivor. If they built that add on into his base kit he would also become viable, I believe.What I really don't like about this killer is that it almost doesn't matter at all how a survivor does during a chase against The Legion. If he's in frenzy mode, it doesn't matter what you do because he can just ignore any defense survivors have. If he's in normal mode, well than sure survivors can fight back. But since he only has 110% movements speed he is very easily loopable, so it's pretty much just wait until The Legion gets his Frenzy back and then goes for you again while in frenzy mode, and then you can't fight back as survivor anymore since he'll hit you anyways, so you might as well just run in a straight line as survivor again.
So honestly, buffing his lethality to much so he becomes a top tier killer, would probably make him the most hated killer, far more than even Doctor. Maybe I'm wrong though, but trying to survive against a killer in which the length of the chase pretty much does not depend on you as a survivor at all, but only depends on how the killer works is not very fun.
Additionally, Calm Spirit should affect the scream you yell out when the DW bar drains.1 -
I don't know if this was covered but the BIGGEST issue with Deep Wounds is the info it gives to other survivors, if it doesn't tick down it tells the other survivors that you're still in chase with that one survivor.
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He would be OP then and everyone without Bond would be getting slugged.Nickenzie said:
If you are injured and you're attacked by The Legion's power, you should lose the ability to mend yourself. However, other survivors can still mend you but you're too injured to do it yourself. How does that sound?ad19970 said:Downing survivors that are injured with frenzy would be too much. Survivors have absolutely no defense when the legion is in frenzy mode, he is comparable to Nurse that way, only he struggles with dowing survivors. But that would make him too good. If anything, if an injured survivor gets hit by frenzy, they should immediately lose like 30% of the deep wounds meter, but not more. I agree with 1 and 3, that would be enough to make him viable honestly. Maybe increase his speed to 115%, then he would be really, really good.
There is one addon though that allows the Legion to only need three hits while in frenzy mode instead of four in order to down a survivor. If they built that add on into his base kit he would also become viable, I believe.What I really don't like about this killer is that it almost doesn't matter at all how a survivor does during a chase against The Legion. If he's in frenzy mode, it doesn't matter what you do because he can just ignore any defense survivors have. If he's in normal mode, well than sure survivors can fight back. But since he only has 110% movements speed he is very easily loopable, so it's pretty much just wait until The Legion gets his Frenzy back and then goes for you again while in frenzy mode, and then you can't fight back as survivor anymore since he'll hit you anyways, so you might as well just run in a straight line as survivor again.
So honestly, buffing his lethality to much so he becomes a top tier killer, would probably make him the most hated killer, far more than even Doctor. Maybe I'm wrong though, but trying to survive against a killer in which the length of the chase pretty much does not depend on you as a survivor at all, but only depends on how the killer works is not very fun.
Additionally, Calm Spirit should affect the scream you yell out when the DW bar drains.
People would have what, 20 seconds to find another person befofe going down? Not gonna happen on lery's, and if hes tagged 3-4 survivors and all are running around panicking it's game over.0 -
While I get what they tried to do with Legion and they could be strong in the right hands I dont think they have learnt anything from the responses regarding the general feel about the Doctor or Freddy, while not strong killers they just arent very fun to play with or against for various reasons and fun should be what the game is about.
The Frenzy mechanic, what is really fun about running around hitting survivors constantly with no real effect? what is fun about being one of those survivor having to constantly mend? I can understand they dont want to make it healing but it is the same thing just under a different guise, it is hit run lose mend, hit run lose mend all with a different M1 animation from healing nothing more, it looks like in the long run it will just prolong the game making it overall quite tedious and not actually fun to play.
There is of course no point in healing when playing V Legion as you can easily be hit again with them having a notificaiton of were you are and as I said doing this over and over is really tedious, I understand the 110% movement speed due to how fast they can be but in trying to make a killer where they can prolong the game they may have shortened it instead with a mechanic players will just get tired off and either DC or die on the hook.
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