The Legion Buffs! (Reasoning and Justification) FINAL THREAD UPDATE!

redsopine01

Simple solution to A counter survivors not healing in the match which is dumb B to improve the legions power after you deep wound all 4 with frenzy if they don't fully heal they can be downed with a get it from frenzy with the standard double frenzy

redsopine01

redsopine01 said:

Simple solution to A counter survivors not healing in the match which is dumb B to improve the legions power after you deep wound all 4 with frenzy if they don't fully heal they can be downed with a get it from frenzy with the standard double frenzy

Few typos I mean if they don't heal a second frenzy downs them but you keep the double stun

NMCKE

powerbats said:

@Nickenzie said:

I have mixed feelings about this since it could over complicate things about the DW status effect. Regardless, great idea @powerbats!

Yeah I can see how it could overcomplicate things which is why i'm hoping better minds than mine can think it through , especially the math side of things where x times the y equals EFF YOU CALCULUS !!!!!

Are you talking about the timer picks up in speed when you don't mend?

powerbats

@Nickenzie said:
powerbats said:

@Nickenzie said:

I have mixed feelings about this since it could over complicate things about the DW status effect. Regardless, great idea @powerbats!

Yeah I can see how it could overcomplicate things which is why i'm hoping better minds than mine can think it through , especially the math side of things where x times the y equals EFF YOU CALCULUS !!!!!

Are you talking about the timer picks up in speed when you don't mend?

Yes, if you're not in a chase then say after 5 seconds the timer starts counting down and goes faster the longer you don't fully mend. So if you start running around the progress you made will also start to decay back to zero and the timer then starts ticking quicker.

If you add in the effect they can't work on gens until fully mended then to fully heal is x seconds, 15 for the mend and the SC time.

NMCKE

powerbats said:

@Nickenzie said:
powerbats said:

@Nickenzie said:

I have mixed feelings about this since it could over complicate things about the DW status effect. Regardless, great idea @powerbats!

Yeah I can see how it could overcomplicate things which is why i'm hoping better minds than mine can think it through , especially the math side of things where x times the y equals EFF YOU CALCULUS !!!!!

Are you talking about the timer picks up in speed when you don't mend?

Yes, if you're not in a chase then say after 5 seconds the timer starts counting down and goes faster the longer you don't fully mend. So if you start running around the progress you made will also start to decay back to zero and the timer then starts ticking quicker.

If you add in the effect they can't work on gens until fully mended then to fully heal is x seconds, 15 for the mend and the SC time.

Ah, I understand now! Basically, your mend progress will decrease first then your actual DW timer will decrease second. The longer you don't fully mend, the faster this happens! Okay, this is easy to understand and I think this would be a great edition to the DW status effect! Phenomenal thinking there @powerbats, keep it up!

ShrimpTwiggs

I would love to give some feedback on your ideas, but I actually haven't seen much about the new character. I haven't seen any gameplay or his ability, so I can't really give you anything constructive.

NMCKE

ShrimpTwiggs said:

I would love to give some feedback on your ideas, but I actually haven't seen much about the new character. I haven't seen any gameplay or his ability, so I can't really give you anything constructive.

It's all cool, but you can get a general idea on how bad he is when you see multiple YouTubers especially Tru3ta1ent saying he's good against BAD survivors.

alivebydeadight

@Nickenzie said:
Introduction

I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors. How Can We Make The Legion Better?

1.) When performing a normal M1 attack on a survivor without using your power, you won't drain your power gauge.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

2.) When using Frenzy on a injured survivor, they will be put into dying state instead of gaining the deep wound status effect.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

3.) Get rid of the double stun when attacking a survivor with the deep wound status effect. Pick one developers, the fatigue or the attack cool down.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

4.) The mending action should be considered as a healing action and mending should take the same amount of time as a regular healing action.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

5.) Show survivor's auras that don't have the deep wound status effect after instead of having a symbol in the direction of where the survivor is at.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

That's it, yes we may not need all of these changes but we do need most of them to make him better as a killer. Please tell me what you think below with reasoning and justification.

Don't say, "You're playing him/her wrong." Guys I watched a SWF and they weren't sweaty, they was just playing together to have fun. The killer got a few 1k and 2k by spreading the damage, the killer was obviously good but he wasn't able to get hooks easily.

Here's a video on why the killer isn't good, he doesn't have a way to get hooks. You either focus one survivor down, hope to win a 110% chase with a normal M1 attack, or pray that the survivors don't know what the mending action is. Pardon his language and I don't believe this PTB is bad, it just needs a few changes so ignore his huge exaggeration regarding the PTB patch as a whole.

P.S: Notice how every hook he got was because it's was the survivor's fault for losing a chase to a 110% M1 killer. He was also spreading the damage on his first game and look how fast survivors can mend, it practically had no effect.

Here's another one by Monto, he says everything better.

Another one with him using No Mither

teach me how you so good at making these type of rework ideas

NMCKE

alivebydeadight said:

@Nickenzie said:
Introduction

I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors. How Can We Make The Legion Better?

1.) When performing a normal M1 attack on a survivor without using your power, you won't drain your power gauge.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

2.) When using Frenzy on a injured survivor, they will be put into dying state instead of gaining the deep wound status effect.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

3.) Get rid of the double stun when attacking a survivor with the deep wound status effect. Pick one developers, the fatigue or the attack cool down.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

4.) The mending action should be considered as a healing action and mending should take the same amount of time as a regular healing action.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

5.) Show survivor's auras that don't have the deep wound status effect after instead of having a symbol in the direction of where the survivor is at.

Reasoning:
(Spoiler)

That's it, yes we may not need all of these changes but we do need most of them to make him better as a killer. Please tell me what you think below with reasoning and justification.

Don't say, "You're playing him/her wrong." Guys I watched a SWF and they weren't sweaty, they was just playing together to have fun. The killer got a few 1k and 2k by spreading the damage, the killer was obviously good but he wasn't able to get hooks easily.

Here's a video on why the killer isn't good, he doesn't have a way to get hooks. You either focus one survivor down, hope to win a 110% chase with a normal M1 attack, or pray that the survivors don't know what the mending action is. Pardon his language and I don't believe this PTB is bad, it just needs a few changes so ignore his huge exaggeration regarding the PTB patch as a whole.

P.S: Notice how every hook he got was because it's was the survivor's fault for losing a chase to a 110% M1 killer. He was also spreading the damage on his first game and look how fast survivors can mend, it practically had no effect.

Here's another one by Monto, he says everything better.

Another one with him using No Mither

teach me how you so good at making these type of rework ideas

Your quote is outdated as I completely redone my thread, take a look because I think I'm going places with my suggestions!

AlwaysInAGoodShape

@Nickenzie
@Janick

Although I like your attempt at solving the Legion's problem, it's hard for me to consider it a good idea, because, apart from anything you came up with, I believe it's build on fundamentally clunky mechanics.

What is wrong with the Legion?

In Dead By Daylight we like to keep things icon; easy to understand. Many of the ideas around DBD, such as Lockers for hiding, Pallets for throwing, etc. make so much sense to us as they are easy to understand.

The developers decided to do something similar with the Health System: Healthy > Injured > Dying state. Easy, right?

Although it works great conceptually, it's very limiting in the rate at which a killer should be able to attack someone because every killer kills in 2 hits (or at best 1).
With a 0-100 Hit Point system where every killer would do 50 damage, the devs would have a lot more variety and room for variation; changing it so that you start bleeding at a certain HP range (say 80) and you start bleeding more frequently depending on how much damage you have exactly.

But what IF we want to be able to have a killer that hits people more frequently, without being overpowered? Well, this is where we corner ourselves; because of our lack of having a more dynamic health system, we create a new health system (similar to what is mentioned above) and have that run at the same time as the traditional DBD health system!
Then we'll artificially create some amount of interplay between the 2, even being it one-sided!

Our desires for the dynamic HP system leads us here: Some suggest that when in the injured state, DW should start at 50%, effectively being exactly what I mentioned, but the DW playing as a more dynamic HP bar allowing for 75% and 25% Hp hits, etc. In short we really try to make it work... but hell does it feel unnatural having this intermediate health-system compensate.

Even worse is the Current Health system, where the interplay between the 2 separate health-system stop working together once someone entered the Injured state.

When we look at this killer we see weirdness. Why is there no difference between hitting a hurt or healthy survivor? Why can I not see scratchmarks when in Frenzy?
Well, the answer is, we've gotten too technical by trying to build on a fundementally flawed killer.

When searching for "Legion" in the searches, I see most debates stabilising and agreeing on building on top of these flawed mechanics.

But I think I have an Alternative:

We already have a great killer here!

You read that right. Conceptually, this killer is great! When I found out that they made a mechanic that allows you to effectively deal with grouped survivors I got excited and was impressed by the Devs.

Uncounciously we already know who the Legion really is:
-He stabs frequently
-He is good at moving over various obstacles
-He's a shredder of groups

Let's turn this killer in something great.
My suggestion will feel weird as it's very non-conforming to the current direction of the Legion debate.
My suggestion is only loyal to the concept of the killer and will do everything to avoid building on top of flawed mechanics and conceptually dull technicalities.

An alternative.

How he'll play:
The (new) Legion is a killer that is good at shredding groups. He benefits from survivors who like to stick together. He jumps from target to target and the more he hits, the stronger he gets. When he finds a survivor alone, he generally will be able to catch them, but after inflicting damage, he'll most likely have lost them.

Definitions:
-Deep Wounds:

Deep wounds is an effect applied to a survivor that triggers a timer. This timer can be stopped by mending for 16 seconds. (8 seconds with a teammate). The timer always ticks. whether in a chase or not, except when you're mending.

-Quick Cuts:

Quick cuts is a delayed hit of any nature. It works like a status effect applied to a survivor, like exhaustion. While this status effect is active on a survivor, a killer (through whatever ability) can then trigger Quick Cuts, removing it and applying the hit with whatever intensity. Note here that the effect of Quick Cuts is not always the same, in as far is it signals it will be able to trigger a delayed hit of any nature on you.

-Frenzy-Stun

The Frenzy stun is a stun the Legion can receive (Typically after depleting the frenzy bar or hitting a survivor for the 2nd time while in frenzy). During this stun, the Legion stares at the ground while looking at his hands, completely losing vision of the environment for X amount of seconds. During this duration and 5 seconds after, he's unable to see scratchmarks and blood. (The scratchmarks and blood are not deleted. Their alpha is reduces, similar to the spirit until they start to fade back in.)

-First Hit

The first hit refers to the first hit against a unique survivor during this instance of frenzy. Meaning that at best, you could get 4 first hits off if you hit every survivor once, until you are forced to go for a second hit. That it is called the first hit doesn't mean that it's the first hit in the game, or against that survivor ever. It's exclusively defined by this instance of activating Frenzy until it is depleted.

-Second Hit

See first hit. The second hit refers to the second time you hit the same survivor during the same instance of activating Frenzy. Theoretically you could get 4 second hits off if you already hit all 4 survivors once with your first hit.

-Sudden Death

Sudden Death is a status effect that allows a killer to mori that player.

-Red Frenzy Glow

This is the glow survivors will gain after they've been hit for the first time. It is important to do it this way around so that other survivors who might be hiding aren't unfairly exposed.

-Red Frenzy Indicator

This is the red symbol you see during frenzy, that show you the location of the survivors.

His power:
His power is revolving around the Frenzy bar. When frenzy is active, he can vault pallets and windows fast, see scratchmarks as ever before and he can hit a survivor, what is defined as "a first time' and "a second time".

Whenever the Legion hits a target for the First Time, he refills his frenzy bar completely, Moves up 1 tier (up to 5) and applies "Quick Cuts".

As the second hit is "the combo closer", the second hit will trigger the effect of quick cuts on all the survivors except the survivor receiving the second hit.
Depending on what tier you were it, the effects of your second hit and Quick Cuts are increased.

The Legion wants to hit as many survivors before going for his second hit. The higher his tier, the more people he will have Quick Cuts applied to and the stronger the effect of quick cut gets.

Because your first and second hit gets stronger the higher your tier is, you want to hit as many survivors before ending your streak by attack a survivor twice.
If you manage to hit all 4 survivors, you will be in tier 5, which will turn you into a machine-gun as later defined.

The exact details:

Tier 1:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is relatively short
First Hit: (The first hit that brings you up in that tier is described in that tier. (see tier 2)
**Second Hit: ** (impossible to get as you jump to tier 2 after your first hit)

Tier 2:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is significantly increased from tier 1.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 7 seconds.

Tier 3:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor and applies a Traditional Borrow Time effect for 25 seconds.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 5 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts gain Deep Wounds.

Tier 4:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Instantly downs a survivor.
If Injured: Downs a survivor.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 3 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts get Injured + receive Deep Wounds. If they were already injured, they are brought down to the Dying State.

Tier 5:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Applies "Sudden Death" to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State and applies a per
-You no longer receive the Legion-Stun after stabbing a survivor for the 2nd time during this instance of frenzy.
-The lack of Legion-Stun allows you to apply the "Second Hit' to all remaining survivors if you have reach to them.
-The Second hit refills your frenzy bar.
Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts get Injured + receive Deep Wounds + Mangled and Haemorrhage. If they were already injured, they are brought down to the Dying State.

Other details:
-The Red Frenzy Indicator is an indicator shown every so now and then intervals. They are only shown when a survivor is moving.
-Upon Depleting your Frenzy timer, you receive a Legion-Stun lasting 3 seconds.
-The Legion can see scratchmarks during Frenzy.
-When the Legion applies a second hit, he applies broken to that survivor for the same duration he is stunned. (This is to avoid heal abuse with the giant stun times.)
-Quick cuts only lasts for the duration of that instance of Frenzy. After is is finished, Quick cuts is completely removed from each survivor. If the effects were already triggered, they will of course continue.

Balance

So what are his strengths and what are his weaknesses?
His strength is obviously being able to get over obstacles fast and being able to quickly inflict wounds to a lot of people in a close area.
His weakness, more then in the original version, is that he is terrible at "tunneling" or focussing down someone if he doesn't have reach to multiple people.

His stun is deliberately awful, as to make it extremely consistent for survivors to disappear.
This is what is so beautiful about this solution:
He is a killer that is very good at hitting people, like the nurse, but can not tunnel these people as he loses them after applying a low-tier second hit.

This means that, unlike the frustration caused by the nurses ability to ignore most of the game, the Legion will lower that frustration by not being able to tunnel these survivors like the nurse could.
This forces him to cause havoc across the board against anyone who he can find, hoping he has enough map pressure and manages to stumble on a hit, hiding survivor, or hopes to find 2 or 3 survivors together, at which point he can slowly start machine gunning them down, not requiring him to find them again (by the fault of survivors themselves).

Now we have a strong killer that unlike the nurse manages to lower frustration, as he spreads his/her strength across the map, instead of against 1 survivor.

A killer that is fun AND strong.

A killer that is easy to understand:
A machine gun against groups; requiring you to sit still while he stabs at your team, in the hope you are hidden..
and if he catches you alone; strong at hitting, but bad at tracking you from Healthy To Downed.

I hope by that, you see a solution other then the building on previous clunky mechanics.
We have the chance to turn his/her beautiful concept into a killer we all can enjoy.

Along the variables like: Legion Stun Time, Frenzy timer across tears, the increased movementspeed, etc. we have all we need to turn him from UP to OP, being able to settle at a perfect balance with healthy mechanics that feel intuitive and make sense.

No more staring at the ground to avoid triggering a chase while chasing a DWed survivor!
Nope! Just intuitive mechanics, conceptually sound technicalities and a lot of stabbing.

DocOctober

Peanits said:

Read over the new feedback, I'll give my thoughts here.

Regarding the changes to deep wound: I don't feel like this would be a significant change. If it's a 60 second timer by default and depletes at a 50% rate during a chase, you're still looking at two minutes before they actually go down. Sure, you could use your power again to shave off a little more time, but if it takes 30 seconds to cooldown, you're still looking at a significantly long chase just to down someone with it. For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended.

Being unable to mend yourself back when injured would be neat. I think that more than anything could give the legion a lot of power. It would slow down survivors more than they currently are (where they can immediately start mending the second you turn your back and move to the next survivor), and more importantly, it would allow you to interrupt the probably-still-injured survivors as they're mending each other up, which plays nicely into his power.

Regarding frenzy changes: I'm mostly on board with this, I don't see any real downside here.

The QOL change: I wouldn't want to see that happen. Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered. You could tag a survivor with deep wound (injuring them), catch back up in frenzy, end frenzy, close the small distance they gained very quickly, and then use a regular M1 to down them. Unless they are immediately next to a window or pallet when your frenzy ends, they're dead.

The big issue with frenzy is that it ignores all of a survivor's counterplay. Pallets don't save you, windows don't save you, nothing does. If the legion gets remotely close, they're going to hit you. That's why I see it as a very tricky killer to balance. How do you make a guaranteed hit powerful without making it feel unfair to play against? And at the same time, how do you make a guaranteed hit weaker without making it feel weak to play with? It's a tricky situation, I don't really think there is a right answer to.

In any case, still good feedback, I think the general idea is good but the killer itself is incredibly touchy to balance. It's hard to say whether or not it would be enough or whether it would make them overpowered, but it could be interesting. I would say that the fatigue reduction couldn't happen, though, that would make him way too powerful at something he's not designed to do.

Pallets don't help you? Just vault right back when Legion vaulted. His momentum carries them beyond it, giving ample time to be safe again.

At any rate, I prefer the QA team's proposals.

NMCKE

DocOctober said:

Peanits said:

Read over the new feedback, I'll give my thoughts here.

Regarding the changes to deep wound: I don't feel like this would be a significant change. If it's a 60 second timer by default and depletes at a 50% rate during a chase, you're still looking at two minutes before they actually go down. Sure, you could use your power again to shave off a little more time, but if it takes 30 seconds to cooldown, you're still looking at a significantly long chase just to down someone with it. For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended.

Being unable to mend yourself back when injured would be neat. I think that more than anything could give the legion a lot of power. It would slow down survivors more than they currently are (where they can immediately start mending the second you turn your back and move to the next survivor), and more importantly, it would allow you to interrupt the probably-still-injured survivors as they're mending each other up, which plays nicely into his power.

Regarding frenzy changes: I'm mostly on board with this, I don't see any real downside here.

The QOL change: I wouldn't want to see that happen. Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered. You could tag a survivor with deep wound (injuring them), catch back up in frenzy, end frenzy, close the small distance they gained very quickly, and then use a regular M1 to down them. Unless they are immediately next to a window or pallet when your frenzy ends, they're dead.

The big issue with frenzy is that it ignores all of a survivor's counterplay. Pallets don't save you, windows don't save you, nothing does. If the legion gets remotely close, they're going to hit you. That's why I see it as a very tricky killer to balance. How do you make a guaranteed hit powerful without making it feel unfair to play against? And at the same time, how do you make a guaranteed hit weaker without making it feel weak to play with? It's a tricky situation, I don't really think there is a right answer to.

In any case, still good feedback, I think the general idea is good but the killer itself is incredibly touchy to balance. It's hard to say whether or not it would be enough or whether it would make them overpowered, but it could be interesting. I would say that the fatigue reduction couldn't happen, though, that would make him way too powerful at something he's not designed to do.

Pallets don't help you? Just vault right back when Legion vaulted. His momentum carries them beyond it, giving ample time to be safe again.

At any rate, I prefer the QA team's proposals.

Well, it's all about the killer's sensitivity and if he can see it coming or not. It's like a 360 in terms of its surprise factor but after the first surprise, you'll usually expect it.

redsopine01

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

@Nickenzie
@Janick

Although I like your attempt at solving the Legion's problem, it's hard for me to consider it a good idea, because, apart from anything you came up with, I believe it's build on fundamentally clunky mechanics.

What is wrong with the Legion?

In Dead By Daylight we like to keep things icon; easy to understand. Many of the ideas around DBD, such as Lockers for hiding, Pallets for throwing, etc. make so much sense to us as they are easy to understand.

The developers decided to do something similar with the Health System: Healthy > Injured > Dying state. Easy, right?

Although it works great conceptually, it's very limiting in the rate at which a killer should be able to attack someone because every killer kills in 2 hits (or at best 1).
With a 0-100 Hit Point system where every killer would do 50 damage, the devs would have a lot more variety and room for variation; changing it so that you start bleeding at a certain HP range (say 80) and you start bleeding more frequently depending on how much damage you have exactly.

But what IF we want to be able to have a killer that hits people more frequently, without being overpowered? Well, this is where we corner ourselves; because of our lack of having a more dynamic health system, we create a new health system (similar to what is mentioned above) and have that run at the same time as the traditional DBD health system!
Then we'll artificially create some amount of interplay between the 2, even being it one-sided!

Our desires for the dynamic HP system leads us here: Some suggest that when in the injured state, DW should start at 50%, effectively being exactly what I mentioned, but the DW playing as a more dynamic HP bar allowing for 75% and 25% Hp hits, etc. In short we really try to make it work... but hell does it feel unnatural having this intermediate health-system compensate.

Even worse is the Current Health system, where the interplay between the 2 separate health-system stop working together once someone entered the Injured state.

When we look at this killer we see weirdness. Why is there no difference between hitting a hurt or healthy survivor? Why can I not see scratchmarks when in Frenzy?
Well, the answer is, we've gotten too technical by trying to build on a fundementally flawed killer.

When searching for "Legion" in the searches, I see most debates stabilising and agreeing on building on top of these flawed mechanics.

But I think I have an Alternative:

We already have a great killer here!

You read that right. Conceptually, this killer is great! When I found out that they made a mechanic that allows you to effectively deal with grouped survivors I got excited and was impressed by the Devs.

Uncounciously we already know who the Legion really is:
-He stabs frequently
-He is good at moving over various obstacles
-He's a shredder of groups

Let's turn this killer in something great.
My suggestion will feel weird as it's very non-conforming to the current direction of the Legion debate.
My suggestion is only loyal to the concept of the killer and will do everything to avoid building on top of flawed mechanics and conceptually dull technicalities.

An alternative.

How he'll play:
The (new) Legion is a killer that is good at shredding groups. He benefits from survivors who like to stick together. He jumps from target to target and the more he hits, the stronger he gets. When he finds a survivor alone, he generally will be able to catch them, but after inflicting damage, he'll most likely have lost them.

Definitions:
-Deep Wounds:

Deep wounds is an effect applied to a survivor that triggers a timer. This timer can be stopped by mending for 16 seconds. (8 seconds with a teammate). The timer always ticks. whether in a chase or not, except when you're mending.

-Quick Cuts:

Quick cuts is a delayed hit of any nature. It works like a status effect applied to a survivor, like exhaustion. While this status effect is active on a survivor, a killer (through whatever ability) can then trigger Quick Cuts, removing it and applying the hit with whatever intensity. Note here that the effect of Quick Cuts is not always the same, in as far is it signals it will be able to trigger a delayed hit of any nature on you.

-Frenzy-Stun

The Frenzy stun is a stun the Legion can receive (Typically after depleting the frenzy bar or hitting a survivor for the 2nd time while in frenzy). During this stun, the Legion stares at the ground while looking at his hands, completely losing vision of the environment for X amount of seconds. During this duration and 5 seconds after, he's unable to see scratchmarks and blood. (The scratchmarks and blood are not deleted. Their alpha is reduces, similar to the spirit until they start to fade back in.)

-First Hit

The first hit refers to the first hit against a unique survivor during this instance of frenzy. Meaning that at best, you could get 4 first hits off if you hit every survivor once, until you are forced to go for a second hit. That it is called the first hit doesn't mean that it's the first hit in the game, or against that survivor ever. It's exclusively defined by this instance of activating Frenzy until it is depleted.

-Second Hit

See first hit. The second hit refers to the second time you hit the same survivor during the same instance of activating Frenzy. Theoretically you could get 4 second hits off if you already hit all 4 survivors once with your first hit.

-Sudden Death

Sudden Death is a status effect that allows a killer to mori that player.

-Red Frenzy Glow

This is the glow survivors will gain after they've been hit for the first time. It is important to do it this way around so that other survivors who might be hiding aren't unfairly exposed.

-Red Frenzy Indicator

This is the red symbol you see during frenzy, that show you the location of the survivors.

His power:
His power is revolving around the Frenzy bar. When frenzy is active, he can vault pallets and windows fast, see scratchmarks as ever before and he can hit a survivor, what is defined as "a first time' and "a second time".

Whenever the Legion hits a target for the First Time, he refills his frenzy bar completely, Moves up 1 tier (up to 5) and applies "Quick Cuts".

As the second hit is "the combo closer", the second hit will trigger the effect of quick cuts on all the survivors except the survivor receiving the second hit.
Depending on what tier you were it, the effects of your second hit and Quick Cuts are increased.

The Legion wants to hit as many survivors before going for his second hit. The higher his tier, the more people he will have Quick Cuts applied to and the stronger the effect of quick cut gets.

Because your first and second hit gets stronger the higher your tier is, you want to hit as many survivors before ending your streak by attack a survivor twice.
If you manage to hit all 4 survivors, you will be in tier 5, which will turn you into a machine-gun as later defined.

The exact details:

Tier 1:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is relatively short
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: ** (impossible to get as you jump to tier 2 after your first hit)

Tier 2:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is significantly increased from tier 1.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 7 seconds.

Tier 3:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Injures a survivor and applies a Traditional Borrow Time effect for 25 seconds.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 5 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts gain Deep Wounds.

Tier 4:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Apply quick cut to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Instantly downs a survivor.
If Injured: Downs a survivor.
-You receive the Legion-Stun for 3 seconds.
-Triggers Quick Cuts: The Survivor affected by quick cuts get Injured + receive Deep Wounds + Mangled and Haemorrhage. If they were already injured, they are brought down to the Dying State.

Tier 5:
-The Frenzy-bar timer is slightly increased from tier 2.
First Hit: Applies "Sudden Death" to the target hit.
**Second Hit: **
If Healthy: Brings a survivor to the Dying State.
If Injured: Brings a survivor to the Dying State and applies a per
-You no longer receive the Legion-Stun after stabbing a survivor for the 2nd time during this instance of frenzy.
-The lack of Legion-Stun allows you to apply the "Second Hit' to all remaining survivors if you have reach to them.
-The Second hit refills your frenzy bar.

Other details:
-The Red Frenzy Indicator is an indicator shown every so now and then intervals. They are only shown when a survivor is moving.
-Upon Depleting your Frenzy timer, you receive a Legion-Stun lasting 3 seconds.
-The Legion can see scratchmarks during Frenzy.
-When the Legion applies a second hit, he applies broken to that survivor for the same duration he is stunned. (This is to avoid heal abuse with the giant stun times.)
-Quick cuts only lasts for the duration of that instance of Frenzy. After is is finished, Quick cuts is completely removed from each survivor. If the effects were already triggered, they will of course continue.

Balance

So what are his strengths and what are his weaknesses?
His strength is obviously being able to get over obstacles fast and being able to quickly inflict wounds to a lot of people in a close area.
His weakness, more then in the original version, is that he is terrible at "tunneling" or focussing down someone if he doesn't have reach to multiple people.

His stun is deliberately awful, as to make it extremely consistent for survivors to disappear.
This is what is so beautiful about this solution:
He is a killer that is very good at hitting people, like the nurse, but can not tunnel these people as he loses them after applying a low-tier second hit.

This means that, unlike the frustration caused by the nurses ability to ignore most of the game, the Legion will lower that frustration by not being able to tunnel these survivors like the nurse could.
This forces him to cause havoc across the board against anyone who he can find, hoping he has enough map pressure and manages to stumble on a hit, hiding survivor, or hopes to find 2 or 3 survivors together, at which point he can slowly start machine gunning them down, not requiring him to find them again (by the fault of survivors themselves).

Now we have a strong killer that unlike the nurse manages to lower frustration, as he spreads his/her strength across the map, instead of against 1 survivor.

A killer that is fun AND strong.

A killer that is easy to understand:
A machine gun against groups; requiring you to sit still while he stabs at your team, in the hope you are hidden..
and if he catches you alone; strong at hitting, but bad at tracking you from Healthy To Downed.

I hope by that, you see a solution other then the building on previous clunky mechanics.
We have the chance to turn his/her beautiful concept into a killer we all can enjoy.

Along the variables like: Legion Stun Time, Frenzy timer across tears, the increased movementspeed, etc. we have all we need to turn him from UP to OP, being able to settle at a perfect balance with healthy mechanics that feel intuitive and make sense.

No more staring at the ground to avoid triggering a chase while chasing a DWed survivor!
Nope! Just intuitive mechanics, conceptually sound technicalities and a lot of stabbing.

See thisnisna balanced power but your forgetting his add-ons and how would you reach teir5 would your base teir3 be 1 and at 5 it's like devour hope but once it's uses your set back to tier one so as to not abuse ot

AlwaysInAGoodShape

@redsopine01

Okey, so this is how you would reach up tiers:

1. Activate Frenzy. (Your bar is now depleting)
2. Hit your first survivor for the first time (you now enter tier 2)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)
3. Hit your the 2nd survivor for the first time. (you are now tier 3)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)
4. Hit your 3rd survivor for the first time. (you are now tier 4)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)
5. Hit your 4th survivor for the first time. (you are not tier 5.)(Your bar is refilled with a new total amount)

If you made it to tier 5 and for whatever the other 3 survivors are still within range, you can now mow them down.

Technically speaking, you could us frenzy to down 4 survivors with a total of 8 hits, faster than any other killer. It's just that the survivors have tools (positioning and hiding) to defend themselves against this from happening.

Note that the moment you leave frenzy you drop back to tier 1. Note that if you go for a second hit against a survivor (and you're not in tier 5), you will apply the effects of that tier and then drop back to tier 1.

A visual example of a Legion attacking 3 different survivor and attacking the 3rd one for a second time:

(Knife represents a hit)
(Skull represents the Quick Cut status effect)

redsopine01

Ah but them how do you activate tier5

AlwaysInAGoodShape

redsopine01 said:

Ah but them how do you activate tier5

Oops, you found a tiny innaccuracy in my original notation. What is written as the first hit in tier 1 should not be there, because i describe the first hit that brings you to tier 2 in tier 2, of this was the misunderstanding you had.

Otherwise: 
You don't necissarily activate tier 5.
You either "get" tier 5 (by hitting 4 survivors only once during this single activation of frenzy).
Or you apply the effects of tier 5 (by being in toer 5 and hitting a survivor for the second time).

Unlike any other tier, tier 5 doesn't stun you afterwards, meaning that you can keep applying tier 5 (the insta down) to every survivor you have reach to.

In case of a Meg, Dwight, Kate, Jake;
Hit all of them once during frenzy = tier 5
Try hitting them all a second time to insta down them. (They are all hurt from your quick cuts proc anyways). In tier 5, every hit (inuclding your second, resets the frenzy bar until all of them are down or you run out because you failed to reach them in time.
Upon exiting frenzy, you become tier 1 again.

powerbats

@DocOctober said:

Pallets don't help you? Just vault right back when Legion vaulted. His momentum carries them beyond it, giving ample time to be safe again.

At any rate, I prefer the QA team's proposals.

But does he not get affected by the slow vaulting which is why his momentum carries him past then? Also wouldn't the survivor be exposed to an attack even if he slides forward some due to the slow vault?

Janick

@Nickenzie said:

Then I'll mend when the chase breaks, I'm a great survivor and I'll mend beside pallets to make sure you won't sneak up on me. If you sneak up, I'll use the pallet and mend until you use the power to catch me. Repeat until either I'm downed (you have wasted a lot of time not pressuring generators) or until you give up on me (even worse). I'll be honest, I'm terrible at survivor, especially in chases but this killer is a laughing stock. At least with Freddy he doesn't have to hit you 5 times to down you.

Hello

I would like to make it clear that the Legion requires 4 hit to down a Deep wound Surviror.

The first hit is the initial 30 sec, a subsequent hit removes 10 sec, for a total of 4 required hit. If you are experimenting a 5 hit chase, please let us know because it is definitely a bug.

Thank you

Wolf74

4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

NMCKE

Janick said:

@Nickenzie said:

Then I'll mend when the chase breaks, I'm a great survivor and I'll mend beside pallets to make sure you won't sneak up on me. If you sneak up, I'll use the pallet and mend until you use the power to catch me. Repeat until either I'm downed (you have wasted a lot of time not pressuring generators) or until you give up on me (even worse). I'll be honest, I'm terrible at survivor, especially in chases but this killer is a laughing stock. At least with Freddy he doesn't have to hit you 5 times to down you.

Hello

I would like to make it clear that the Legion requires 4 hit to down a Deep wound Surviror.

The first hit is the initial 30 sec, a subsequent hit removes 10 sec, for a total of 4 required hit. If you are experimenting a 5 hit chase, please let us know because it is definitely a bug.

Thank you

Yes, it's a bug as the hit sometimes doesn't register or the DW bar doesn't reflect the second hit. This is kinda rare but is annoying when this happens, thank you for asking!

NMCKE

powerbats said:

@DocOctober said:

Pallets don't help you? Just vault right back when Legion vaulted. His momentum carries them beyond it, giving ample time to be safe again.

At any rate, I prefer the QA team's proposals.

But does he not get affected by the slow vaulting which is why his momentum carries him past then? Also wouldn't the survivor be exposed to an attack even if he slides forward some due to the slow vault?

Like I said before, if you have the sensitivity and you expect it. You can prevent survivors from hopping back over the pallet without them taking a stab.

Janick

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

GodDamn_Angela

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Survivors being able to stop the timer, and the timer not decreasing while in a chase kind of counters the idea of a "delated inst down Killer" so no one with any skill is going to be downed by DW.

Freudentrauma

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

And I thought DW are more like RBT traps. There is a thread, but it's only there to give you a reason dealing with it and waste your time.

redsopine01

AlwaysInAGoodShape said:

redsopine01 said:

Ah but them how do you activate tier5

Oops, you found a tiny innaccuracy in my original notation. What is written as the first hit in tier 1 should not be there, because i describe the first hit that brings you to tier 2 in tier 2, of this was the misunderstanding you had.

Otherwise: 
You don't necissarily activate tier 5.
You either "get" tier 5 (by hitting 4 survivors only once during this single activation of frenzy).
Or you apply the effects of tier 5 (by being in toer 5 and hitting a survivor for the second time).

Unlike any other tier, tier 5 doesn't stun you afterwards, meaning that you can keep applying tier 5 (the insta down) to every survivor you have reach to.

In case of a Meg, Dwight, Kate, Jake;
Hit all of them once during frenzy = tier 5
Try hitting them all a second time to insta down them. (They are all hurt from your quick cuts proc anyways). In tier 5, every hit (inuclding your second, resets the frenzy bar until all of them are down or you run out because you failed to reach them in time.
Upon exiting frenzy, you become tier 1 again.

Ok but then why say number5 can cause a mori

redsopine01

GodDamn_Angela said:

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Survivors being able to stop the timer, and the timer not decreasing while in a chase kind of counters the idea of a "delated inst down Killer" so no one with any skill is going to be downed by DW.

They have a point because if you look at a few live early ptb a wounded person heals while somone chased easily after running away from the killer which makes it really easy to just keep getting hit by the power from a slow speed killer

NMCKE

Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Like I said in my OP, he's like the Pig (slows down the game) but he does lack lethality.

Raccoon

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

I can only assume that there are some decent buffs en route.

DarkWo1f997

Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Well that’s all fine and dandy sir, but the problem is, there isn’t at least 1/3 chance for it to actually down them if you aren’t staring at the ground, following the scratch marks and waiting for them to try to mend so you can hit them.

I guess it’s almost guaranteed then but still it’s not fun for the survivor.

in your opinion, can the power be relied upon to have a fair chance to get downs on survivors? 

EDIT: not being sarcastic I’m genuinely curious to know how effective the power is. I don’t want it to be guaranteed downs, but it shouldn’t be rare either. Do you guys feel you’ve hit that sweetspot in between? 

redsopine01

If he's a delayed killer double the mend time from 7 to 14 or allow sloppy butcher to affect it

Exerlin

I think he would be a lot more powerful if hitting an injured survivor with DW would give them deep wounds with only 20 seconds on the clock and not stun you. Then you can hit them again to knock them down to 10 seconds. This way, you only have to hit them in frenzy once after your first stun if they decided not to heal.

DarkWo1f997

Why doesn’t the bleed timer start at 50% every time deep wounds is inflicted until that survivor heals all the way from injured? 

DarkWo1f997

Can we at least have survivors punished if they don’t heal against the legion? 

powerbats

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Isn't this where you come up and non frenzy smack them since they're wounded already at that point?

Wolf74

@DarkWo1f997 said:
Why doesn’t the bleed timer start at 50% every time deep wounds is inflicted until that survivor heals all the way from injured? 

My idea goes a similar way.
The timer should stay the SAME where it stopped after the mending, until the victim got healed up completely.
So staying in injured state is not an option.
Only after fully healed the timer starts with a full bar again if deep wounds gets applies anew.

DarkWo1f997

powerbats said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Isn't this where you come up and non frenzy smack them since they're wounded already at that point?

That’s the idea, but the thing is, at 110% speed, it can take a long time. 

NMCKE

DarkWo1f997 said:

powerbats said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Isn't this where you come up and non frenzy smack them since they're wounded already at that point?

That’s the idea, but the thing is, at 110% speed, it can take a long time. 

A very long time.

NMCKE

DarkWo1f997 said:

powerbats said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Isn't this where you come up and non frenzy smack them since they're wounded already at that point?

That’s the idea, but the thing is, at 110% speed, it can take a long time. 

This here, the survivor can know when you're coming and run to another pallet. I'm not trying to bash the developers on how poor this killer is but I can probably run this killer for 5 generators. Sure, eventually Frenzy will down me but it'll take 4 hits and due to his Frenzy fatigue, I'll use Iron Will to break the chase.

NMCKE

I see a lot of threads saying he's bad so I'll bump this thread (instead of making another thread) to show people how we can make the Legion better!

Incarnate

@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.
I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.
1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.
2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.

I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.

If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.

In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.

..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.

Fenrir

Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Well you failed at that

Fenrir

Nickenzie said:

I see a lot of threads saying he's bad so I'll bump this thread (instead of making another thread) to show people how we can make the Legion better! so bas

Mr_Myers

@GodDamn_Angela said:

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Survivors being able to stop the timer, and the timer not decreasing while in a chase kind of counters the idea of a "delated inst down Killer" so no one with any skill is going to be downed by DW.

So why make his power play peek-a-boo with the survivors

NMCKE

Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.
I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.
1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.
2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.

I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.

If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.

In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.

..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.

Don't take this to heart but I feel like the skill checks can over complicate things with the DW status effect. However, I see that you understand the main problem with DW: It has the same effect on injured and healthy survivors.

A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.

Incarnate

@Nickenzie said:
Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.

I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.

1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.

2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.

I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.

If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.

In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.

..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.

Don't take this to heart but I feel like the skill checks can over complicate things with the DW status effect. However, I see that you understand the main problem with DW: It has the same effect on injured and healthy survivors.

A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.

I'm will not, as I'm just trying to throw some ideas so we can better fix the legion. The skill checks would only begin triggering when the injured victim with DW has reached 5% or less of the DW timer and has also reached the "find help", as this will ensure that unless the victim keeps doing the skill checks it will eventually go down, unless it receives help in time.

However one thing I would say probably would be needed, is that the last survivor should still be able to progress through the "find help" stage, but only if it's the last victim, where it will progress slower than normal. So that the last victim won't be completely depending on someone who isn't there.

Also, what I were suggesting of course were intended to work with what you already have suggested.
You're right, 60 seconds is quite some time, hence also why I suggested two different timers as, one is able to self-mend completely without help and the other will need help with the last part.

However with that said, we may have to realize that a rework will be a lot easier and better in the long run.

NMCKE

Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie said:
Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.

I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.

1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.

2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.

I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.

If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.

In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.

..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.

Don't take this to heart but I feel like the skill checks can over complicate things with the DW status effect. However, I see that you understand the main problem with DW: It has the same effect on injured and healthy survivors.

A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.

I'm will not, as I'm just trying to throw some ideas so we can better fix the legion. The skill checks would only begin triggering when the injured victim with DW has reached 5% or less of the DW timer and has also reached the "find help", as this will ensure that unless the victim keeps doing the skill checks it will eventually go down, unless it receives help in time.

However one thing I would say probably would be needed, is that the last survivor should still be able to progress through the "find help" stage, but only if it's the last victim, where it will progress slower than normal. So that the last victim won't be completely depending on someone who isn't there.

Also, what I were suggesting of course were intended to work with what you already have suggested.
You're right, 60 seconds is quite some time, hence also why I suggested two different timers as, one is able to self-mend completely without help and the other will need help with the last part.

However with that said, we may have to realize that a rework will be a lot easier and better in the long run.

To be fair if the Legion DW'd you then attacks you again with Frenzy, you can still loop the Legion for 40 seconds before going down (assuming my Frenzy suggestions were implemented to the game). Those 40 seconds can be used to complete half of a generator per survivor so if you do go down because the Legion chased you till your timer expired, at least you'll know the Legion wasted a lot of time. My changes makes him better at stalling the game while being like the Pig where you can catch them mending and down them. If they run away then their timer will still decrease since my changes will not stop or slow the timer during a chase. Basically, if you go and tag multiple survivors then you're increasing your chances of catching a survivor off guard and downing them.

Incarnate

@Nickenzie said:
Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie said:

Incarnate said:

@Nickenzie - In regards to your suggested the deep wound mechanics.

I think there needs to be two different timers, as indicated just below.

1 - healthy -> DW'ed - Longer than the normal DW timer to compensate for timer going down during a chase.

2 - injured -> DW'ed - Longer timer than the one above.

I think the deep wound timer needs to keep going down in a chase, but slightly slower, so that way if the killer decides to apply pressure on the same DW'ed victim, the killer will not be severely punished for it.

If a victim gets DW'ed while injured and while mending the victim gets "find help" the DW timer will stop before 5% left, here the victim can only stop the bleeding by keep mending, which would be different from the one who got DW'ed while healthy. In this situation the victim who keep mending will occasionally get a skill check where if they fail it, the timer will automatically decrease by 1% - which basically give a maximum of 4 failed skill attempts before going down. The result from this will be that if they're unable to actually get to another victim, they still have the option to stall the bleeding until another victim will get there and help, which will make this DW'ed victim unable to move and will pretty much be a sitting duck, unless they're willing to risk going down. Either way at this point the victim should consider it lucky if it manages to recover from this state.

In regards to the legion, I think it's base move speed should be 4.2m/s, or maybe even 4.1m/s as the legion is based of a victim, also because it's way too easy to keep chasing one who's already DW'ed who also happen to have a timer that keeps going down while in a chase, and with the changes suggested by Nickenzie, it might be necessary.

..and perhaps make legion unable to actually benefit from bloodlust, because legion already has the feral frenzy, which should be more than enough speed boost.



Don't take this to heart but I feel like the skill checks can over complicate things with the DW status effect. However, I see that you understand the main problem with DW: It has the same effect on injured and healthy survivors.

A 60 second DW timer is a lot if you think about it and most survivors should have enough time to mend (or find a teammate to mend if was previously injured). This and having Frenzy get stronger as you tag multiple survivors should help him slow down the game since he's able to DW multiple survivors. Consequently, we need to a way to balance this out because just these two buffs will make him a killing machine. The Legion will have to wait for his power to completely charge to 100% before using it and it takes more time to fully charge it (as well as lasting just a little bit longer). While my changes will definitely make him better, he should stay at 110% because it's the only thing he has when he doesn't have Frenzy.

I'm will not, as I'm just trying to throw some ideas so we can better fix the legion. The skill checks would only begin triggering when the injured victim with DW has reached 5% or less of the DW timer and has also reached the "find help", as this will ensure that unless the victim keeps doing the skill checks it will eventually go down, unless it receives help in time.

However one thing I would say probably would be needed, is that the last survivor should still be able to progress through the "find help" stage, but only if it's the last victim, where it will progress slower than normal. So that the last victim won't be completely depending on someone who isn't there.

Also, what I were suggesting of course were intended to work with what you already have suggested.

You're right, 60 seconds is quite some time, hence also why I suggested two different timers as, one is able to self-mend completely without help and the other will need help with the last part.

However with that said, we may have to realize that a rework will be a lot easier and better in the long run.

To be fair if the Legion DW'd you then attacks you again with Frenzy, you can still loop the Legion for 40 seconds before going down (assuming my Frenzy suggestions were implemented to the game). Those 40 seconds can be used to complete half of a generator per survivor so if you do go down because the Legion chased you till your timer expired, at least you'll know the Legion wasted a lot of time. My changes makes him better at stalling the game while being like the Pig where you can catch them mending and down them. If they run away then their timer will still decrease since my changes will not stop or slow the timer during a chase. Basically, if you go and tag multiple survivors then you're increasing your chances of catching a survivor off guard and downing them.

That is fair to have two different timers, both because there are mechanical differences but most certainly also because that if you're DW'ed while injured you cannot mend yourself completely, which is obviously quite different from being able to mend yourself. There were a reason why I didn't put a specific value on the timers, namely because they were meant to be relative to what you're suggesting value wise, or what a dev would for that matter.

So the slightly longer than normal timer were to compensate for the fact the the time would be going down while chasing, albeit slightly slower. Where the second timer would have to be longer than the one if you had been healthy when the DW was applied, to compesate for the fact that cannot completely mend yourself. So I weren't saying it should be 60 seconds, that was your initial value, what I'm suggesting value-wise is relative what you're suggesting. So if the first DW timer normally is 25 seconds, then maybe make it 30s (increase by 20% from the base of 25s), and make the second DW timer 40 seconds (increase by 60% from the base of 25s). I think that seems reasonable.

Also I don't know if you saw the recent dev stream were @Janick mentioned that one of the changes in the next patch would be, if one were applied DW while being injured it would start at 20s rather than at 25s.

One thing I think might be a good idea to change as well, would be to change when the slightly slower bleeding occurs, from being in a chase to when being within the terror radius. The reason being that currently what we see legion do is this: 1-First Apply DW, then follow up with a second DW strike, then break from chase to see if it's possible to apply it to someone else nearby, if so then do the above, but then return to the first victim to DW strike them again which resets their mending progress and then breaks chase and follows until the victim goes down or does a final DW strike. So changing it from the when chasing to being within the terror radius would make legion not being able to exploit just breaking chase to have the bleed begin at full speed, so that legion actually needs distance him/herself from the victim to achieve that.

ShrimpTwiggs

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

"Delayed Instadown"

Not trying to be rude in any way, but there's a bit of a problem with that statement.

Incarnate

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

"Delayed Instadown"

Not trying to be rude in any way, but there's a bit of a problem with that statement.

I agree, no killer should from a baseline perspective be able to instantly down anyone.
Because if you consider it, every killer who has the capability to instantly down either has to use very rare or ultra rare addons or have to put in a great deal of effort for it.

NMCKE

Incarnate said:

@ShrimpTwiggs said:

@Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

"Delayed Instadown"

Not trying to be rude in any way, but there's a bit of a problem with that statement.

I agree, no killer should from a baseline perspective be able to instantly down anyone.
Because if you consider it, every killer who has the capability to instantly down either has to use very rare or ultra rare addons or have to put in a great deal of effort for it.

I'm okay with killers having an "Instadown" but it should be a skilled action that has counterplay. However, the Legion power has way to much counterplay - meaning his power is no threat to regular survivors - rendering his power completely useless.

Janick said:

@Wolf74 said:
4 hits.^^
So he is the opposite of an insta down killer.
He doesn't half the amount of hits to down someone, but double. XD

Actually, we see him more as a delayed insta down killer.

Knowing what I said to @Incarnate, he is not lethal enough to be considered an "Delayed instadown killer". Please @Janick, you gotta take my suggestions and implement it to the game. I'll sign a contract or do anything saying you have the legal rights to take my idea so we all can have a more balanced killer!