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The Legion Buffs! (Reasoning and Justification) FINAL THREAD UPDATE!

24

Comments

  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    twistedmonkey said:

    While I get what they tried to do with Legion and they could be strong in the right hands I dont think they have learnt anything from the responses regarding the general feel about the Doctor or Freddy, while not strong killers they just arent very fun to play with or against for various reasons and fun should be what the game is about.

    The Frenzy mechanic, what is really fun about running around hitting survivors constantly with no real effect? what is fun about being one of those survivor having to constantly mend? I can understand they dont want to make it healing but it is the same thing just under a different guise, it is hit run lose mend, hit run lose mend all with a different M1 animation from healing nothing more, it looks like in the long run it will just prolong the game making it overall quite tedious and not actually fun to play.

    There is of course no point in healing when playing V Legion as you can easily be hit again with them having a notificaiton of were you are and as I said doing this over and over is really tedious, I understand the 110% movement speed due to how fast they can be but in trying to make a killer where they can prolong the game they may have shortened it instead with a mechanic players will just get tired off and either DC or die on the hook.

    Valid point.

    I've enjoyed fighting Legion because he's new, and to be honest a lot of players are really bad with him.

    However fighting a competent one on The Game was kind of frustrating. People were mending and healing all the time. Took forever to get gens done. 
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    The_Crusader said:
    Nickenzie said:
    ad19970 said:

    Downing survivors that are injured with frenzy would be too much. Survivors have absolutely no defense when the legion is in frenzy mode, he is comparable to Nurse that way, only he struggles with dowing survivors. But that would make him too good. If anything, if an injured survivor gets hit by frenzy, they should immediately lose like 30% of the deep wounds meter, but not more. I agree with 1 and 3, that would be enough to make him viable honestly. Maybe increase his speed to 115%, then he would be really, really good.
    There is one addon though that allows the Legion to only need three hits while in frenzy mode instead of four in order to down a survivor. If they built that add on into his base kit he would also become viable, I believe.

    What I really don't like about this killer is that it almost doesn't matter at all how a survivor does during a chase against The Legion. If he's in frenzy mode, it doesn't matter what you do because he can just ignore any defense survivors have. If he's in normal mode, well than sure survivors can fight back. But since he only has 110% movements speed he is very easily loopable, so it's pretty much just wait until The Legion gets his Frenzy back and then goes for you again while in frenzy mode, and then you can't fight back as survivor anymore since he'll hit you anyways, so you might as well just run in a straight line as survivor again.
    So honestly, buffing his lethality to much so he becomes a top tier killer, would probably make him the most hated killer, far more than even Doctor. Maybe I'm wrong though, but trying to survive against a killer in which the length of the chase pretty much does not depend on you as a survivor at all, but only depends on how the killer works is not very fun.

    If you are injured and you're attacked by The Legion's power, you should lose the ability to mend yourself. However, other survivors can still mend you but you're too injured to do it yourself. How does that sound?

    Additionally, Calm Spirit should affect the scream you yell out when the DW bar drains.
    He would be OP then and everyone without Bond would be getting slugged.

    People would have what, 20 seconds to find another person befofe going down? Not gonna happen on lery's, and if hes tagged 3-4 survivors and all are running around panicking it's game over.
    I had an idea that they increase the bleed out timer to 60 seconds (bare with me for a second). If you're put into DW from the injured state, you'll have 60 seconds to find a teammate and you'll see the auras of all survivors during this time. There could be a notice at the bottom saying "Find Help!".
  • The_Crusader
    The_Crusader Member Posts: 3,688
    Nickenzie said:
    The_Crusader said:
    Nickenzie said:
    ad19970 said:

    Downing survivors that are injured with frenzy would be too much. Survivors have absolutely no defense when the legion is in frenzy mode, he is comparable to Nurse that way, only he struggles with dowing survivors. But that would make him too good. If anything, if an injured survivor gets hit by frenzy, they should immediately lose like 30% of the deep wounds meter, but not more. I agree with 1 and 3, that would be enough to make him viable honestly. Maybe increase his speed to 115%, then he would be really, really good.
    There is one addon though that allows the Legion to only need three hits while in frenzy mode instead of four in order to down a survivor. If they built that add on into his base kit he would also become viable, I believe.

    What I really don't like about this killer is that it almost doesn't matter at all how a survivor does during a chase against The Legion. If he's in frenzy mode, it doesn't matter what you do because he can just ignore any defense survivors have. If he's in normal mode, well than sure survivors can fight back. But since he only has 110% movements speed he is very easily loopable, so it's pretty much just wait until The Legion gets his Frenzy back and then goes for you again while in frenzy mode, and then you can't fight back as survivor anymore since he'll hit you anyways, so you might as well just run in a straight line as survivor again.
    So honestly, buffing his lethality to much so he becomes a top tier killer, would probably make him the most hated killer, far more than even Doctor. Maybe I'm wrong though, but trying to survive against a killer in which the length of the chase pretty much does not depend on you as a survivor at all, but only depends on how the killer works is not very fun.

    If you are injured and you're attacked by The Legion's power, you should lose the ability to mend yourself. However, other survivors can still mend you but you're too injured to do it yourself. How does that sound?

    Additionally, Calm Spirit should affect the scream you yell out when the DW bar drains.
    He would be OP then and everyone without Bond would be getting slugged.

    People would have what, 20 seconds to find another person befofe going down? Not gonna happen on lery's, and if hes tagged 3-4 survivors and all are running around panicking it's game over.
    I had an idea that they increase the bleed out timer to 60 seconds (bare with me for a second). If you're put into DW from the injured state, you'll have 60 seconds to find a teammate and you'll see the auras of all survivors during this time. There could be a notice at the bottom saying "Find Help!".
    Ok not a bad idea, but what if Legion just follows you?

    You either then run to a fellow survivor who also gets hit with deep wound then you're both running around trying to find someone to heal you both, or you lead Legion away but then you bleed out and go down.

    Or does the timer still pause if he's chasing you? In which case he could still follow you.

    I think he would feel like Freddy then in that you'd feel like you couldn't escape him and that isn't fun.
  • FujinRaijin
    FujinRaijin Member Posts: 72

    I would personally lower the base fatigue-time, currently he relies on cooldown add-ons too heavily, would make frenzy still down injured survs (so they have to actually heal) and make Mending take longer and not store progress.

    I don't think the power should show auras, and mending shouldnt count as healing because it would have potency to become extremely unfun.

  • White_Owl
    White_Owl Member Posts: 3,786
    edited November 2018

    I think just the point 2 would make him stronger and more menacing (when No Mither doesn't really have have a downside, that's a problem). My main problem is that currently the Deep Wound doesn't put enough pressure, especially since it's silent and not affected by aura reading, so survivors can do it in safety even near the the killer. I'm not sure if it should be affected by Mangled and Coulrophobia, though.

  • Cymer
    Cymer Member Posts: 946

    @White_Owl said:
    I think just the point 2 would make him stronger and more menacing (when No Mither doesn't really have have a downside, that's a problem). My main problem is that currently the Deep Wound doesn't put enough pressure, especially since it's silent and not affected by aura reading, so survivors can do it in safety even near the the killer. I'm not sure if it should be affected by Mangled and Coulrophobia, though.

    As it is mending and healing is not the same and do not benefit from the same perks/conditions.

  • chefdave12118
    chefdave12118 Member Posts: 193
    I love the new killer. I agree with people saying (s)he should have a base 115 spped though . Maybe a couple other tweaks mentioned in this thread, but this killer can be dangerous . If 3 people are in one area that's 3 people with a one shot hit and you can chase one and down them while the others are first mending then healing . It slows the game down, but I really think the killer needs 115 speed and ultra rare add ons 
  • Madjura
    Madjura Member Posts: 2,442

    @Janick said:
    I can also confirm that the TR expand to 32M when he applies the Deep Wound effect, it was omitted from the Power description. (extending over 32M was useless and distracting because you did not have time to reach them) Text will be fixed.

    How does this extended 32m radius work exactly, how does it interact with the following perks:

    • Monitor & Abuse, gives you 32m when in a chase - does the power extend it past those 32m?
    • Distressing
    • Distressing + Monitor & Abuse when in a chase (should be 40m) - does it extend past the 40m?
    • active Tinkerer
  • twistedmonkey
    twistedmonkey Member Posts: 4,291
    edited November 2018

    wrong post :P

  • alivebydeadight
    alivebydeadight Member Posts: 1,559

    @Nickenzie said:
    Introduction

    I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors. How Can We Make The Legion Better?


    1.) When performing a normal M1 attack on a survivor without using your power, you won't drain your power gauge.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    2.) When using Frenzy on a injured survivor, they will be put into dying state instead of gaining the deep wound status effect.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    3.) Get rid of the double stun when attacking a survivor with the deep wound status effect. Pick one developers, the fatigue or the attack cool down.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    4.) The mending action should be considered as a healing action and mending should take the same amount of time as a regular healing action.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    5.) Show survivor's auras that don't have the deep wound status effect after instead of having a symbol in the direction of where the survivor is at.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    That's it, yes we may not need all of these changes but we do need most of them to make him better as a killer. Please tell me what you think below with reasoning and justification.

    Don't say, "You're playing him/her wrong." Guys I watched a SWF and they weren't sweaty, they was just playing together to have fun. The killer got a few 1k and 2k by spreading the damage, the killer was obviously good but he wasn't able to get hooks easily.

    Here's a video on why the killer isn't good, he doesn't have a way to get hooks. You either focus one survivor down, hope to win a 110% chase with a normal M1 attack, or pray that the survivors don't know what the mending action is. Pardon his language and I don't believe this PTB is bad, it just needs a few changes so ignore his huge exaggeration regarding the PTB patch as a whole.

    P.S: Notice how every hook he got was because it's was the survivor's fault for losing a chase to a 110% M1 killer. He was also spreading the damage on his first game and look how fast survivors can mend, it practically had no effect.

    Here's another one by Monto, he says everything better.

    Another one with him using No Mither

    110% movement speed and 2inning the chase with luck, boyo, hag does it, I do it with huntress without hatchets, now all we need is some sloppy butcher treatment to fix the mend

  • Th3Nightmare
    Th3Nightmare Member Posts: 1,266

    @Nickenzie said:
    Introduction

    I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors. How Can We Make The Legion Better?


    1.) When performing a normal M1 attack on a survivor without using your power, you won't drain your power gauge.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    2.) When using Frenzy on a injured survivor, they will be put into dying state instead of gaining the deep wound status effect.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    3.) Get rid of the double stun when attacking a survivor with the deep wound status effect. Pick one developers, the fatigue or the attack cool down.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    4.) The mending action should be considered as a healing action and mending should take the same amount of time as a regular healing action.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    5.) Show survivor's auras that don't have the deep wound status effect after instead of having a symbol in the direction of where the survivor is at.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    That's it, yes we may not need all of these changes but we do need most of them to make him better as a killer. Please tell me what you think below with reasoning and justification.

    Don't say, "You're playing him/her wrong." Guys I watched a SWF and they weren't sweaty, they was just playing together to have fun. The killer got a few 1k and 2k by spreading the damage, the killer was obviously good but he wasn't able to get hooks easily.

    Here's a video on why the killer isn't good, he doesn't have a way to get hooks. You either focus one survivor down, hope to win a 110% chase with a normal M1 attack, or pray that the survivors don't know what the mending action is. Pardon his language and I don't believe this PTB is bad, it just needs a few changes so ignore his huge exaggeration regarding the PTB patch as a whole.

    P.S: Notice how every hook he got was because it's was the survivor's fault for losing a chase to a 110% M1 killer. He was also spreading the damage on his first game and look how fast survivors can mend, it practically had no effect.

    Here's another one by Monto, he says everything better.

    Another one with him using No Mither

    Ok, according to @Janick, the power is not to shoot down survivors, okay.

    • Speed: 110%
    • What capacity does the killer have with power? - To injure the survivors thanks to their "killer instinct" and speed.
    • How many victims could be reached? - 4.
    • What does "THE LEGION" get with this? - Slow down the game
    • How long? - ......
    • Why do you want to slow down the game? - So that the engines do not repair you
    • Purpose? - Use the power to search for survivors and injure them. Once you have 3 or 4 survivors, start a chase with a speed of 110%, how long will it take to reach the survivor having defense tools such as pallets? If the survivor is experienced or has some experience in the game the killer goes to the storeroom. The killer can slow down the game "injuring" but ... the mechanics of injuring and not knocking down is quite "strange" that a killer "injures" and there is no mechanic to "knock them down" the killer loses all its potential.

    In short: I do not see much use to the power of "THE LEGION", since to demolish does not work, only to slow down the game, and if you include the factor of your base speed, it is a problem of time to capture a survivor who have defenses.

  • Raccoon
    Raccoon Member Posts: 7,692
    edited November 2018
    Wrong post. 
    Post edited by Raccoon on
  • G0odNess
    G0odNess Member Posts: 45

    TEXT WALL INCOMING

    Lets analize the killers, shall we???
    pros and cons of their power (because a killer "is" their power)
    duration: 6 seconds
    recharge: 15 seconds (reusable after 3 seconds.. not that it matters, if you use it right away the sprint lasts for an amazing 1.5 seconds)
    "new effect" applied on a hit while using the power: (d̶e̶e̶p̶ ̶w̶o̶u̶n̶d̶s̶ barely noticeable papercuts) so that the killer isn't "OP" which is essentially the BT ticker, and a nice and totally unnecessary boost to Borrowed Time, an already meta perk
    pros:

    • sprint burst of 120%
    • can vault pallets
    • unrelenting on steroids (practically no delay between hits)

    • if you hit a non "papercutted" survivor the power duration is reseted, so you can use it again.
      cons:

    • base speed of 110% because the power is "too good"

    • muffled sounds when using the power
    • c̶a̶n̶'̶t̶ ̶s̶e̶e̶ ̶s̶c̶r̶a̶t̶c̶h̶ ̶m̶a̶r̶k̶s̶ scratchmarks dont spawn (if the survivor keeps runnig after you hit them with feral and took a six seconds stun, the marks dont start spawning again until the survivor stops and starts running again) when using the power
    • the "papercuts" ticker doesn't goes down on chases
    • feral hitting a survivor already on "papercuts" state will stun the killer for six seconds, and deplete the power bar
    • feral hitting a survivor on the "papercuts" state will, instead of downing them, deplete a tiny bit of the ticker (you need to hit the survivor another FOUR times to deplete the ticker and down them unless you are using PURPLE addons, all the while giving them a nice speed boost and stunning you for six seconds after the hit)
    • normal hitting a survivor will deplete the power bar
    • hitting an already injured, but not "papercutted" survivor will apply the FULL "papercuts" ticker to the survivor, so you still need to hit them another four times.

    Please compare the pros and the cons of the power, and tell me why do the devs feel the need of all the killers powers to handiccap them somewhat, i know people complains about clown, doc and freddy, but this is just preposterous, at this rate i'd rater have a killer at 115% with literally no power, and ill explain why.
    A lot of people has suggested that the killer is Not supposed to chase people, they are not chasers they are game stallers, because pig and doctor are the top tier killers in the game, right??? wrong, the name of the game for killers is not "stalling" is "chasing" thats why the queen of the game is Nurse and the close seconds are billy and hatchet huntress, because they are good chasers, and thats why no hatchet huntres is the worst killer in the game, because of 110% speed.
    So some argue that the objective of the legion should be to get as many on a injured status, but that falls flat on it's face because, unless the survivors are hugging each other linking chains in rarely gonna happen, even when the survivors are on the limit of the terror radius it's hard to get them if they see the killer sprinting, and, if you just leave one survivor "papercutted" to go afther the other the survivor will just mend and go to gen rush already a lot of optimal survivors just dont heal and, against the legion it effectively doesn't matters, because wneh the killer comes for an injured survivor they need to either use their power to get to said survivor and then it doesnt matters if the survivor is injured or not, since the bleed out ticker is applied in full injured state or not, thus requiring five more hits to down an already injured survivor, or, if the killer wants to get the survivor in one hit, they get looped forever thanks to their 110% speed, so, the killer that is supposed to capitalize on injuring multiple survivors, gets nothing for injuring multiple survivors.
    The power is also counter productive for chases, as stated early, the best powers are the ones that help in the chase, not the ones that stall the game, and, since the legion's power makes it so that more hits are requiered to down a durvivor, it does not only stalls the survivors for an amazing 15 seconds, but makes the killer waste way more time trying to hit a survivor once at 110% speed while looped or four times at 120% speed with a nice stun of 6 seconds between hits and no scratch marks to track.
    Also, again, the killer wins by hooking people, the "chase" powers are the ones that help the most at hooking, not the "stalling" powers or, again, pig, freddy and doc would be the top killers, they aren't, a stalling power that stalls the survivors for an amazing 15 seconds, while making it so that the killer requires to hit a survivor five times, or for the killer to totally forsake than their power exist so that they can down a survivor in two hits while moving at 110% speed, is a completely garbage power, and it does nothing to help the killer get the hooks they so desperately need.

  • Carpemortum
    Carpemortum Member Posts: 4,506
    akbays35 said:

    I don't know if this was covered but the BIGGEST issue with Deep Wounds is the info it gives to other survivors, if it doesn't tick down it tells the other survivors that you're still in chase with that one survivor.

    This is a problem? I thought we wanted to bridge the gap of swf and solo? 
  • Fenrir
    Fenrir Member Posts: 533
    TheBean said:

    The idea behind the Fenzy attack making it difficult to down survivors is cause the power is ment to spread the pain around the survivors. Not tunnel one survivor down.

    The idea from the survivor side, is that this killer isn't meant to be played as a chaser and tunneler. You frenzy.. spread the hits around.. Then hunt the injured.

    You aren't ment to spend the whole time chasing the same survivor while frenzied. That is why you lose the power if you hit someone who has a deep wound. If you are chasing the survivor to hit them 4 times while in frenzy so you can down them... You are playing the killer wrong. In fact, you are playing them horribly wrong.

    But if people know its the legion and spread out gen rush then the legion wont be able to spread the pain at all
  • Fenrir
    Fenrir Member Posts: 533
    Arsoul said:

    24 hours and people are already b!tching.
    The concept of a TEST build is quite elusive.

    Except its not really testing anything devs dont make any changes during this time and it more like a showcase build and when people try to give feedback to improve the perks or killers they just say there fine and basically git gud while they are definitely not good themselves
  • BunnyTheHutt
    BunnyTheHutt Member Posts: 1,773

    @Juya said:
    OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.

    Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.

    why not just run sloppy butcher and save the best for last on trapper? you could turn any killer into legion with these 2 perks. When a killer can be done in 2 perks and better when put on any killer with 115% ms there is a problem.

  • SpikeyBiscuit
    SpikeyBiscuit Member Posts: 45

    @Janick said:

    Hello

    Thank you very much for the feedback. Very appreciated, especially the nonsarcastic or positive tone.

    Although I can confirm that everything that you mentioned was tested out. Most of the ideas were actually how he was initially. We made him the way he is to give a chance to survivors to escape. He was simply unstoppable and not fun to play against. I will not explain all the reasoning for each point but I can guaranty that the whole design team sat down and discussed those before coming up with the current iteration. (I might explain further in a stream)

    I can also confirm that the TR expand to 32M when he applies the Deep Wound effect, it was omitted from the Power description. (extending over 32M was useless and distracting because you did not have time to reach them) Text will be fixed.

    We are also reviewing the pallet animation, it was done that way to make it feel good on 1st person, although it has a much bigger impact on gameplay than anticipated. Thank you again!

    I love this new killer but as he is it's too weak. Two simple tweaks at the minimum would fix this: Make DWE always tick down unless being chased or mended by others, and make injured survivors who get DWE applied to them freshly start the countdown at half bar. These two changes will be all it takes to allow Legion to down survivors without making him unfair to play against.

  • G0odNess
    G0odNess Member Posts: 45

    @Fenrir said:
    TheBean said:

    The idea behind the Fenzy attack making it difficult to down survivors is cause the power is ment to spread the pain around the survivors. Not tunnel one survivor down.

    The idea from the survivor side, is that this killer isn't meant to be played as a chaser and tunneler. You frenzy.. spread the hits around.. Then hunt the injured.

    You aren't ment to spend the whole time chasing the same survivor while frenzied. That is why you lose the power if you hit someone who has a deep wound. If you are chasing the survivor to hit them 4 times while in frenzy so you can down them... You are playing the killer wrong. In fact, you are playing them horribly wrong.

    But if people know its the legion and spread out gen rush then the legion wont be able to spread the pain at all

    furthermore, the legion has a movement speed of 110% so how the hell are they supposed to catch up with a decent surv but to go and hit them another four times with frenzy (all the while taking a nice six secons stun and giving the surv a speed boost), the "deep wounds" (more like barely noticieable papercuts) are mended in 15 seconds, thats how much the power "stalls " the game,

  • G0odNess
    G0odNess Member Posts: 45
    edited November 2018

    @BunnyTheHutt said:

    @Juya said:
    OMG, when will people understand that frenzy isn't a tool made to kill survivors, but to stagger they're by forcing to mend their wounds, and at the same time, revealing other survivors nearby.

    Give him/her/them more of a chance, Legion just got out.

    OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the ######### are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???

  • thesuicidefox
    thesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,223

    Just FYI for some people, I was just watching HybridPanda's latest video. He went against a Legion using Stab Wounds Study (lowers DW timer) and Frank's Mix Tape (increases Frenzy damage to DW timer). The killer was awful and got bodied, but he was doing more than 50% per hit in Frenzy. That means 3 hits, or 2 Frenzies to down them. Considering how unavoidable Frenzy seems at the time, that add-on combo seems like it would make him crazy powerful. Give those add-ons to a good killer and you might see why it's a bad idea to let him down so easy in Frenzy.

  • thesuicidefox
    thesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,223

    @G0odNess said:
    OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the [BAD WORD] are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???

    I putting this in big text for everyone to read...

    THE SURVIVOR MUST STOP TO MEND

    They have to. Immediately after the chase ends, they must do that before ANYTHING else. It's not like RBT, or Madness, or normal healing even, where you can choose to do other things for at least some time before doing those actions.

    It's this moment where Legion can close the gap on you, and if you are close enough the 5% less movement speed is irrelevant.

  • Mister_xD
    Mister_xD Member Posts: 7,669

    i agree on pretty much everything, but point 2), as this would literally make him a 110% movementspeed onestot killer, due to the fact that he would just attack normally and then instantly switch off to Frenzy mode, which is very hard to dodge btw, and outright down you without giving you any chance for a counterplay at this point. i would be okay with this change, if an injured survivor who gets hit with frenzy actually instantly looses 50% of their deep wound timer, instead of having the full 100%. this way, your 2nd attack, which comes right away, would put them on a 20% meter, allowing you to eigther charge your ability back up and frenzy them down or just m1 them regulary.

    this would be a better solution imo, as it wouldnt just make him into a walking oneshot.

  • G0odNess
    G0odNess Member Posts: 45
    edited December 2018

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @G0odNess said:
    OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the [BAD WORD] are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???

    I putting this in big text for everyone to read...

    THE SURVIVOR MUST STOP TO MEND

    They have to. Immediately after the chase ends, they must do that before ANYTHING else. It's not like RBT, or Madness, or normal healing even, where you can choose to do other things for at least some time before doing those actions.

    It's this moment where Legion can close the gap on you, and if you are close enough the 5% less movement speed is irrelevant.

    No they not, as long as the legion is chasing them, the timer stops, and the mending timer is not reseted if the animation ends, so survivors can "mend tap" it, AND, the timer stops as soon as the mending happens, so, a survivor can be on the final second of the "deep wounds" ticker, and still be A OK.
    Also, legion can't "close the gap" because after feral hitting a deep wounded survivor, a) the legion takes a SIX seconds stun, b) the survivor gets a nice speed bost and c) while on frenzy the scratchmarks mechanic is deleted, so a survivor has to do nothing but to keep running to some direction the killer doesn't sees them, and then mend on the last second of the "deep wounds" ticker.

    Post edited by G0odNess on
  • Bravo0413
    Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,647
    AChaoticKiller said:
    I disagree with being able to down survivors with frenzy but that's it, all the or he changes feel pretty fair.
    I disagree with the instadown as well... that would just be not fun for either side... there'd be a few laughs... but legion would be the first killer I'd call OP
  • G0odNess
    G0odNess Member Posts: 45

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @Orion said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @G0odNess said:
    OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the [BAD WORD] are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???

    I putting this in big text for everyone to read...

    THE SURVIVOR MUST STOP TO MEND

    They have to. Immediately after the chase ends, they must do that before ANYTHING else. It's not like RBT, or Madness, or normal healing even, where you can choose to do other things for at least some time before doing those actions.

    It's this moment where Legion can close the gap on you, and if you are close enough the 5% less movement speed is irrelevant.

    Or they can keep looping, because the timer will not go down during a chase.

    Dude just break the chase LOL. Like how hard is this to understand really? The game almost seems to do it automatically for you after he fatigues. You can still totally track someone without being in a chase with them. Don't just follow them and trigger a chase, let the chase break and track them from a distance. When they stop to mend you move in and get a hit. If they run they lose time. If they do that too much they just go down because they never mend.

    You guys have 0 imagination when it comes to tactics and mind games. Stop just following survivors around like a lost puppy and you will do better I swear.

    break the chase so that the survivor jukes thanks to a six seconds stun, a speed boost to the survivor and no scratch marks, so that any decent survivor just breaks LOS, hides, mends in 15 seconds, and then when the killer finds the survivor it's either one M1, 110% speed hit or five "deep wounds" hits???

  • HP150
    HP150 Member Posts: 455
    edited November 2018

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @Orion said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @G0odNess said:
    OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the [BAD WORD] are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???

    I putting this in big text for everyone to read...

    THE SURVIVOR MUST STOP TO MEND

    They have to. Immediately after the chase ends, they must do that before ANYTHING else. It's not like RBT, or Madness, or normal healing even, where you can choose to do other things for at least some time before doing those actions.

    It's this moment where Legion can close the gap on you, and if you are close enough the 5% less movement speed is irrelevant.

    Or they can keep looping, because the timer will not go down during a chase.

    Dude just break the chase LOL.

    Yeah man, because "chasing" a survivor while walking backwards the entire time is a super fun and intuitive mechanic, not cheesy at all.

    Or do you mean trying to stay close behind while relying on this game's super fickle trigger of what it considers a "chase" and "not a chase" while depending on the survivor being completely oblivious to your location? Because we totally didn't go through this with The Pig's release when everyone was trying every way to get the Reverse Bear Traps actually be the Pig's main form of killing, like in the entire series of the Saw movies?

    Oh, and since you're in the "dude just break the chase LOL" crowd you must also be in
    the "dude just break the totem" crowd when it comes to NOED
    the "dude just hide behind a generator" crowd for BBQ&Chili (guess they can cancel the locker aura hiding now)
    the "dude just slug the survivors" crowd to stop hatch standoffs
    the "dude just don't get caught" crowd for tunneling complaints
    the "dude just do the generators" crowd for camping complaints
    yeah?

  • Fenrir
    Fenrir Member Posts: 533
    thesuicidefox said:

    @Orion said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @G0odNess said:
    OMG please understand the legion's base speed is 110% so, please, explain to me how the [BAD WORD] are they supposed to catch a decent survivor without their "power", do the killer just plays "ring around the rosey" 'till the survivor feels like stoping???

    I putting this in big text for everyone to read...

    THE SURVIVOR MUST STOP TO MEND

    They have to. Immediately after the chase ends, they must do that before ANYTHING else. It's not like RBT, or Madness, or normal healing even, where you can choose to do other things for at least some time before doing those actions.

    It's this moment where Legion can close the gap on you, and if you are close enough the 5% less movement speed is irrelevant.

    Or they can keep looping, because the timer will not go down during a chase.

    Dude just break the chase LOL. Like how hard is this to understand really? The game almost seems to do it automatically for you after he fatigues. You can still totally track someone without being in a chase with them. Don't just follow them and trigger a chase, let the chase break and track them from a distance. When they stop to mend you move in and get a hit. If they run they lose time. If they do that too much they just go down because they never mend.

    You guys have 0 imagination when it comes to tactics and mind games. Stop just following survivors around like a lost puppy and you will do better I swear.

    If we went with that logic genrush will easily out play the legion
  • dontTouchMyGens
    dontTouchMyGens Member Posts: 35
    Nickenzie said:
    MhhBurgers said:

    The people who say that his power is not meant to down people.

    Have you tried downing a decent survivor with 110%MS? It won't happen and no, bamboozle won't help you with it.

    Frenzy should be able to down injured survivors but not down survivors who are in the deep wound status effect. This would encourage survivors to heal to the healthy state instead of running around injured.
    This. This alone would change everything and would make him/her terrifying. It could be a little too strong though if you consider how long it can take to heal with sloppy butcher and/or coulrophobia. And then there’s Nurses Calling... But I think in general this is the way to go.
  • akbays35
    akbays35 Member Posts: 1,123

    @Carpemortum said:
    akbays35 said:

    I don't know if this was covered but the BIGGEST issue with Deep Wounds is the info it gives to other survivors, if it doesn't tick down it tells the other survivors that you're still in chase with that one survivor.

    This is a problem? I thought we wanted to bridge the gap of swf and solo? 

    Yeah but we don't need to give survivors a 4 obsession indicator which is what happened to Legion, even low level players will understand this and use it to their advantage, granted Pig has the same issue where the timer wont tick if survivors are in a chase, but pig is less likely to get multiple facetraps and give that info to survivors.

  • dontTouchMyGens
    dontTouchMyGens Member Posts: 35
    edited November 2018
    @Nickenzie
    @Jannik

    Maybe there could be different tiers of deep wound. 

    Tier 1 (1 stack): dw as it is now
    Tier 2 (2 stacks): timer keeps ticking during the chase (maybe at a reduced speed?)
    Tier 3 (3 stacks): dw can only be mended by another survivor, medkit or self care

    Tier 2 and 3 could be switched, not sure about that. 

    Reasoning: this would give Legion a choice after one hit to either inflict dw upon another survivor or keep going after the first one. If he does the latter, it comes at the price of being stunned after the second hit, ending his frenzy and giving survivors a headstart.
    DW would become a threat on higher tiers rather than being a minor inconvenience.
    Post edited by dontTouchMyGens on
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    alivebydeadight said:

    @Nickenzie said:
    Introduction

    I been doing some research for a while now and I'll have to say, he's very weak. This is due to the fact that he can't secure his hooks easily which is what the game evolves around. For you to hook someone as The Legion, you'll need to hit a survivor with your power four times down or you can M1 a survivor with a 110% movement speed twice (or once if they are in the deep wound status effect). Both processes takes a long time to secure a hook because you are simply doing something that is inefficient. Yes, the killer is a "Pig" where (s)he can cause survivors to waste time by mending but that's not good enough to justify his weak ability to hook survivors. How Can We Make The Legion Better?


    1.) When performing a normal M1 attack on a survivor without using your power, you won't drain your power gauge.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    2.) When using Frenzy on a injured survivor, they will be put into dying state instead of gaining the deep wound status effect.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    3.) Get rid of the double stun when attacking a survivor with the deep wound status effect. Pick one developers, the fatigue or the attack cool down.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    4.) The mending action should be considered as a healing action and mending should take the same amount of time as a regular healing action.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    5.) Show survivor's auras that don't have the deep wound status effect after instead of having a symbol in the direction of where the survivor is at.

    Reasoning:
    (Spoiler)

    That's it, yes we may not need all of these changes but we do need most of them to make him better as a killer. Please tell me what you think below with reasoning and justification.

    Don't say, "You're playing him/her wrong." Guys I watched a SWF and they weren't sweaty, they was just playing together to have fun. The killer got a few 1k and 2k by spreading the damage, the killer was obviously good but he wasn't able to get hooks easily.

    Here's a video on why the killer isn't good, he doesn't have a way to get hooks. You either focus one survivor down, hope to win a 110% chase with a normal M1 attack, or pray that the survivors don't know what the mending action is. Pardon his language and I don't believe this PTB is bad, it just needs a few changes so ignore his huge exaggeration regarding the PTB patch as a whole.

    P.S: Notice how every hook he got was because it's was the survivor's fault for losing a chase to a 110% M1 killer. He was also spreading the damage on his first game and look how fast survivors can mend, it practically had no effect.

    Here's another one by Monto, he says everything better.

    Another one with him using No Mither

    110% movement speed and 2inning the chase with luck, boyo, hag does it, I do it with huntress without hatchets, now all we need is some sloppy butcher treatment to fix the mend

    @alivebydeadight
    Well, Hag has her traps to compensate for the 110% movement speed. Legion has nothing but a 110% movement speed or he can tag the survivor multiple times with Frenzy. Ofc both options are inefficient.

    Inb4 "Get multiple survivors with Frenzy."

    Once you do that, you're at square one which is attempting to down a survivor with 110% or hammering the survivor with Frenzy until you down them. When you down the survivor - the time you wasted by causing DW to all 4 survivors is non existent - meaning you wasted more time then what time you wasted for the survivors.
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    My thread have been updated, please give it a look y'all and sorry for my bad English as you can see what time I had to redo literally every thing. :(
    @powerbats
    @No_Mither_No_Problem
    @fcc2014
    @chemical_reject
    @friendlykillermain
    @SenzuDuck
    @Peasant
    @ChesterTheMolester
    @ShrimpTwiggs
    @MandyTalk
    @Peanits
    @Janick
  • ChesterTheMolester
    ChesterTheMolester Member Posts: 2,771
    Arsoul said:

    @HP150 said:

    @Arsoul said:
    24 hours and people are already b!tching.
    The concept of a TEST build is quite elusive.

    Yeah man, it's almost like people are giving feedback! What scumbags! /s

    The sheer amount of complaining about Legion is the forums is a completely different thing to providing feedback. Admittedly, the original post for this thread wasnt bad.

    "Its only constructive feedback when it serves my view".
  • ChesterTheMolester
    ChesterTheMolester Member Posts: 2,771
    edited December 2018
    TBH give him 115% speed, remove the double stun and survivors that were injured before DWE tagged can no longer mend themselves (or only up to 90% like being downed)

    That should be enough.
  • Master
    Master Member Posts: 10,200

    @Peanits said:
    Read over the new feedback, I'll give my thoughts here.

    Regarding the changes to deep wound: I don't feel like this would be a significant change. If it's a 60 second timer by default and depletes at a 50% rate during a chase, you're still looking at two minutes before they actually go down. Sure, you could use your power again to shave off a little more time, but if it takes 30 seconds to cooldown, you're still looking at a significantly long chase just to down someone with it. For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended.

    Being unable to mend yourself back when injured would be neat. I think that more than anything could give the legion a lot of power. It would slow down survivors more than they currently are (where they can immediately start mending the second you turn your back and move to the next survivor), and more importantly, it would allow you to interrupt the probably-still-injured survivors as they're mending each other up, which plays nicely into his power.

    Regarding frenzy changes: I'm mostly on board with this, I don't see any real downside here.

    The QOL change: I wouldn't want to see that happen. Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered. You could tag a survivor with deep wound (injuring them), catch back up in frenzy, end frenzy, close the small distance they gained very quickly, and then use a regular M1 to down them. Unless they are immediately next to a window or pallet when your frenzy ends, they're dead.

    The big issue with frenzy is that it ignores all of a survivor's counterplay. Pallets don't save you, windows don't save you, nothing does. If the legion gets remotely close, they're going to hit you. That's why I see it as a very tricky killer to balance. How do you make a guaranteed hit powerful without making it feel unfair to play against? And at the same time, how do you make a guaranteed hit weaker without making it feel weak to play with? It's a tricky situation, I don't really think there is a right answer to.

    In any case, still good feedback, I think the general idea is good but the killer itself is incredibly touchy to balance. It's hard to say whether or not it would be enough or whether it would make them overpowered, but it could be interesting. I would say that the fatigue reduction couldn't happen, though, that would make him way too powerful at something he's not designed to do.

    And thats my biggest issue with this design.
    As you said, there is no counterplay from a survivors perspective, all you can do is try to gain a few more seconds. Thats why the power itself has to be so weak, but thats just flawed design in my opinion.

    My real problem with the current changes is the insane buff to BT. I mean I can ignore the new killer and simply dont play him, but I cant ignore those BT squads :wink:

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Peanits said:

    Read over the new feedback, I'll give my thoughts here.

    Regarding the changes to deep wound: I don't feel like this would be a significant change. If it's a 60 second timer by default and depletes at a 50% rate during a chase, you're still looking at two minutes before they actually go down. Sure, you could use your power again to shave off a little more time, but if it takes 30 seconds to cooldown, you're still looking at a significantly long chase just to down someone with it. For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended.

    Being unable to mend yourself back when injured would be neat. I think that more than anything could give the legion a lot of power. It would slow down survivors more than they currently are (where they can immediately start mending the second you turn your back and move to the next survivor), and more importantly, it would allow you to interrupt the probably-still-injured survivors as they're mending each other up, which plays nicely into his power.

    Regarding frenzy changes: I'm mostly on board with this, I don't see any real downside here.

    The QOL change: I wouldn't want to see that happen. Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered. You could tag a survivor with deep wound (injuring them), catch back up in frenzy, end frenzy, close the small distance they gained very quickly, and then use a regular M1 to down them. Unless they are immediately next to a window or pallet when your frenzy ends, they're dead.

    The big issue with frenzy is that it ignores all of a survivor's counterplay. Pallets don't save you, windows don't save you, nothing does. If the legion gets remotely close, they're going to hit you. That's why I see it as a very tricky killer to balance. How do you make a guaranteed hit powerful without making it feel unfair to play against? And at the same time, how do you make a guaranteed hit weaker without making it feel weak to play with? It's a tricky situation, I don't really think there is a right answer to.

    In any case, still good feedback, I think the general idea is good but the killer itself is incredibly touchy to balance. It's hard to say whether or not it would be enough or whether it would make them overpowered, but it could be interesting. I would say that the fatigue reduction couldn't happen, though, that would make him way too powerful at something he's not designed to do.

    This is why I say you, Peanits and MandyTalk are the most reasonable mods. Thank you for the amazing feedback, I'll make some changes but first I'll explain why I decided to make these changes.

    "For that reason, I don't really see the need to have it deplete at a reduced rate in a chase at all if the timer is going to be extended."
    Reasoning: I'm scared that if it depletes normally while in a chase, he would be too overwhelming for the survivor being chased. Then again he is a 110% movement speed killer so maybe this wouldn't be too much to ask for. So, I'll take your word and change it to where the DW timer will deplete at its normal speed when in a chase.

    "    Removing the double stun is one thing, but reducing the fatigue period if you purposefully end frenzy would make the killer very overpowered."
    Reasoning: I wouldn't mind if they didn't go through with the reduced stun time if you purposely end your Frenzy since maybe it could be a bit much. However, the double stun absolutely needs to go ASAP!

    I wished more people could be give me feedback like you just did, thank you! Means a lot to see someone take some time to help me understand their point of view! :)
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    edited December 2018
    ChesterTheMolester said:
    TBH give him 115% speed, remove the double stun and survivors that were injured before DWE tagged can no longer mend themselves (or only up to 90% like being downed)

    That should be enough.
    The developers don't like to increase a killer's movement speed even through it would be a good fix to the killer. However, if they decide not to then my suggestions are perfect to making The Legion a more lethal killer while remaining at 110%.
  • Fenrir
    Fenrir Member Posts: 533
    The ultimate thread
  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    Fenrir said:
    The ultimate thread
    What do you think about my suggestions?
  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    I like the suggestions and @Peanits reasoning is rally good as well. i discussed this with @DarkWo1f997 in another thread to address similar concerns.

    I would think that once out of the chase his timer could tick down the further away he is from the victim, so if for instance he loses them. At the start of an internal 5 sec timer he doesn't re-aquire them then the timer ticks down at an ever increasing rate.

    So .5 ticks per second then increasing steadily like BT timer to being depleted at 15 seconds and the only cure is Mending. To keep people from just losing him and Mending for 1 second the pause on the timer will have a decay effect that stacks.

    The more you pause the mend similar to the old SC at a pallet pause routine the faster the progress you made will decay back to zero. This would put pressure on people to stop and mend completely.

    One thing you could also add to it's effect is to make it so you can't repair gens similar to how you can't do so in Madness Tier III.

    I'm not sure how or where this could be tied into your suggestions though or whether it'd work well with your stuff.

  • NMCKE
    NMCKE Member Posts: 8,243
    powerbats said:

    I like the suggestions and @Peanits reasoning is rally good as well. i discussed this with @DarkWo1f997 in another thread to address similar concerns.

    I would think that once out of the chase his timer could tick down the further away he is from the victim, so if for instance he loses them. At the start of an internal 5 sec timer he doesn't re-aquire them then the timer ticks down at an ever increasing rate.

    So .5 ticks per second then increasing steadily like BT timer to being depleted at 15 seconds and the only cure is Mending. To keep people from just losing him and Mending for 1 second the pause on the timer will have a decay effect that stacks.

    The more you pause the mend similar to the old SC at a pallet pause routine the faster the progress you made will decay back to zero. This would put pressure on people to stop and mend completely.

    One thing you could also add to it's effect is to make it so you can't repair gens similar to how you can't do so in Madness Tier III.

    I'm not sure how or where this could be tied into your suggestions though or whether it'd work well with your stuff.

    I have mixed feelings about this since it could over complicate things about the DW status effect. Regardless, great idea @powerbats! :)
  • powerbats
    powerbats Member Posts: 7,068

    @Nickenzie said:

    I have mixed feelings about this since it could over complicate things about the DW status effect. Regardless, great idea @powerbats! :)

    Yeah I can see how it could overcomplicate things which is why i'm hoping better minds than mine can think it through , especially the math side of things where x times the y equals EFF YOU CALCULUS !!!!!