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dead hard is speedrunning its way back to the meta and it's scaring me shitless
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I get thats very stressful. First time faced a sweaty tbag swf, I stopped playing for a week. I still get those kind of survivors sometimes, just leave a gg and move on.
But I learned that dont take it personal, some people plays the game only to be toxic and ruin other's experience. They only want to see your rage, dont let them success.
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The perk is fine.
You are able to play around it.
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I've got no issues with current Dead Hard. It's stronger against strong killers and weaker against weak killers. If I get hit with it more than once, it's usually my fault.
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I do try to move on, just hard when it happens three games in a row. I mean, I come from League of Legends, so I'm pretty used to people being twats for the sake of being twats. But still, kinda demoralising.
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Dead Hard is still strong, yeah, and there are still some situations where using Dead Hard gives the killer no way of playing around it, but at the very least it's a lot healthier than old Dead Hard. If it's usage rates get even close to what old DH had then maybe we can talk about nerfing it again but I've got no real issue with it at the moment.
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I can't believe some people would still complain about DH. It is so much more balanced and fair, and has counterplay on the killer's side. We don't need DH to become useless, it's in a perfect spot now.
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How is it as obnoxious? Almost everyone complained about it giving survivors free distance so they could reach a pallet or window they wouldn't have otherwise. It was stupid because it didn't have any counterplay for killers.
Now it doesn't do that anymore, and survivors instead have to time DH perfectly to be able to tank another hit. The payoff is bigger now, but it's harder to procc, and most importantly, killers now have fair counterplay against that perk. It's completely fine, I can't believe some are still complaining about the perk. It doesn't need to be nerfed into uselessnes.
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Frankly I dont know how people didnt even see it coming that DH was going to come back to the better. As the game changes, and time goes on, people improve, and I knew people were going to use Dead Hard again once they adjusted to the changes.
Speaking from experience, I love variety, but the issue with the old meta is that it was so set in stone that everyone used the same 6 perks every match, and while DH is really common, I still do see a lot more variety in loadouts than before, at least from the survivor end of things. I know that maybe in a few months, this variety might not be there, but Im at least happy there is variety while it is here.
Balance-wise though, DH is in a good spot imo. It takes skill and is rewarding enough for people to use it. I just feel as if other perks need something to elevate them a bit more and make them better. For both sides there are a lot of perks that just fill the gutter with junk.
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Aside from cheaters, I think it's perfectly fine. It's definitely a strong perk, but now it does requires skill. If someone can pull this on me legitimately, I can't even be mad. However most players I have seen using it, they just actively ram into you to force its use, which 95% of time isn't as good as simply trying to escape in the usual manner.
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I mean some habits dead hard. BBQ is my crutch but it is a mid perk at best. The reason for it's high usage is killer's have always used it and therefore continue to use it. They could be using meta perks instead.
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Just comes down to preference in the end really or which perks you have available.
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You’re not punished for hitting a survivor that successfully times a dead hard any more than you’re punished for hitting a full health survivor. Less so, in fact, because your hit against dead hard inflicts deep wounds. They’re not charging by the weapon swing - just attack.
Honestly at .5 seconds I don’t see how anything other than a bot can successfully time it frequently enough to justify the perk slot. I do play on console though so maybe it just feels unforgiving due to the controls.
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Nerfing DH so it's out of the meta and... It's back to the meta.
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Indeed. Its interestingly, but unsurprising, mostly a thing in higher MMR.
Nowadays, the god loopers in a given group of survivors will nearly infallible run it and you have to always take it into account at certain situations and often get baited into hitting them when DHing; though it is never so problematic that you fear swinging.
But about a week ago I smurfed my account a little bit in order to grind out the last couple of pips to get into Iri1. And as soon as my MMR dropped did DH disappear entirely. It felt so jarring, but made totally sense: the good player's in the higher reaches are, well, good enough to capitalise on DH and turn a sticky situation into a getaway, while less experienced player's just have to get lucky or go down.
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If anything it takes luck because 0.5 seconds of Endurance means even the smallest bit of latency will either make you get hit JUST before the game registers you Dead Harding or JUST after the Endurance ran out during the animation.
That's why many people complain about getting downed and being exhausted. It's unreliable as hell so people think it now takes "skill" when it's basically become a luck dependant perk that's still annoying to go against.
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I see a lot more killers using chilli than i do survivors using DH. Definitely shortens the process of looking for survivors. I just find it weird that people camplain about DH when it requires split second reactions to successfully use. Whereas bbq and chilli is easy to utilise. Especially when certain killers can clear the distance in seconds, demo, freddy then spirit, wraith and nurse to a lesser extent.
And FYI I'm not a survivor main, I play killer just as much. I haven't unlocked bubba yet but even without bbq I'm having a fairly easy time with killer. When i unlock it it'll make it much easier. I take it since you referred to "you survivor players" that you're a killer main?
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Ohh yes speedy chainsaw boi
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I hate to break it to some of you but DH was never NOT meta lol... people eventually used their brains to think for themselves and practice their timing instead of jumping on the hate-bandwagon that happened right after the update. 99% of the people that were mocking the new DH weren't even using it, they were too scared to practice and replaced it with other autopilot perks
'Wait, I can't just press E and get rewarded in any scenario anymore, I actually have to calculate my uses because there's counterplay for it now??? This perk is so ass, I'm switching to Lithe'
The perk even with the nerf has never been ass, maybe some of the people judging it are. Of course you can get robbed due to latency with the Survivor or Killer even when timed correctly, Of course you can bait it out easier now because the 0.5 second duration is harsh, but it still gives great value on people that force you to use it at pallets, windows, hook trades (the hardest one to pull off). A large source of its value also comes from the fact that people aren't expecting to see it as much and often get comfortable, then they get caught off guard at the wrong moments. There's countless scenarios where it shows its worth
Is it predictable once you've already seen somebody use it on you? Of course, but the distance and time added to chases adds up especially when you consider that multiple people can and still run it together. Its not carrying terrible players for free anymore, but its still meta
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Current version is stronger than the previous version. So of course its still meta.
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Killers don’t always have fair counterplay. The only real counterplay is to walk up to a survivor and breathe down their neck for a few seconds, so you can do a quick M1 tap. Killers aren’t allowed to lunge, and many killer powers aren’t allowed, if you want to do the counterplay.
And dead hard for distance is still in the game, if the killer needs to lunge is order to reach a survivor that is getting close to a pallet. Either the killer lunges and eats a dead hard, or they don’t lunge and the survivor can drop the pallet.
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I will never understand this argument. The dark souls series is pretty notorious for extremely bad latency issues, and yet look at these parry windows in DS2:
Not only are most of them pretty damn small for their active windows, they don't even have uniform startup windows to boot. Yet people can use them online just fine in a game where you can be looking eye to eye then suddenly be teleported into a backstab. The absolute "best" weapon for parrying only has an active window of 18 frames, or 0.3 seconds. Bare fists and fist weapons are also some of the more popular ones, and they're only 4 and 5 frames respectively. after a startup of over 15 frames to begin with.
It's quite literally a skill issue. Because again, reads are a skilled play: You are committing to your opponent doing something before having any confirmation they are, in fact, doing the thing. You're straight up reading their mind and calling it out like goddamn Joseph Joestar. I feel like people who play fighting games take to this stuff a lot easier than others because its an overlapping concept with the genre (and obviously with things like fencing, as the DS series shows.) It's ok to not really be too familiar or skilled with these types of things, it just means you don't get as much value from the perk as people who are.
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Funny how they can cut its use rate in half and it's still the most used survivor perk
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I don't mind DH. Why? is a free stack of STBFL.
Unless the obversion haves it then ouch, lol.
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Actually it is baitable. Swing at the pallet or just miss and their script will force the DH.
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It's quite literally a skill issue. Because again, reads are a skilled play: You are committing to your opponent doing something before having any confirmation they are, in fact, doing the thing. You're straight up reading their mind and calling it out like goddamn Joseph Joestar.
Careful, old Spirit was all about guessing and making reads. 50/50 coins flips were considered unfair. In that same patch, they also weakened deathslinger who had 0.15 scope and you had to predict shots which apparently had no counter-play. Spirit was apparently bs and deathslinger was "If he aims well, he hits you, so it has no counter-play" almost as if the killer is suppose to aim and then miss every time he aims well. Incredible survivor logic.
I activate dead hard around 2/3 of my chases against all killers, so I would not say it is luck based more so then being knowledge based. OP post is complaining about dead hard users that are good at using dead hard, though he does not explain it or rather he briefly mentions what bothers him. I'm going to take a guess that a lot of the comments are missing why he is frustrated by dead hard users. The comment section of the post suggests that you need to time dead hard and while that is true... it is only half true.
this perk is slowly becoming as frustrating to deal with as old dh, and getting robbed out of hits when using powers that don't allow you to wait it out like wesker's bound , trickster's knives or when survivors force a lunge by going to a pallet feels awful.
to focus on last part of his sentence, The way to use new dead hard against m1 killers is that many pallets in DBD are unsafe, for example RPD room pallet in the center of the room is unsafe pallet. Once you put this pallet down, If the killer respects the pallet and does not get stunned, The killer can go on the side of this pallet and the survivor is prompted to what players will refer to as panic-sliding. since the survivor is animation locked when sliding a pallet, you can generally get a hit by lunging at the correct time on one side of the pallet.
Since this situation forces the killer to lunge, this allows survivors to time their dead hard and get a near guaranteed sprint burst, therefore grants a second chance. In order for killer to avoid giving the survivor a sprint burst, you have to break the unsafe pallet but breaking pallets is slow for virtually all killers apart from 2 of them. The result is that your either force to give the survivor an extra-health state or to break the pallet giving the survivor an opportunity to go the next pallet.
this is how you use new dead hard vs m1 killers and OP frustrated by the second chance that dead hard provides. In term of killer powers, new dead hard is less versatile at dodging killer powers as a lot of killer-power have controlling properties such as Deathslinger, Trapper, Doctor and Pinhead.preventing endurance effect from being effective.
Dead hard is not really about dodging hits out in the open, Its about creating situations where the killer is forced to lunge so that you can press the button for an extra health-state. Dead hard never fell out of the meta, It was just changed to be less universally effective in all situations. Old dead hard was closer to 99% sprint burst that was activatable on demand. New dead hard is situational extra health-state requires precision timing and game-sense to utilize correctly.
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I have the same stance with how spirit's mindgame worked as well, and have not been able to enjoy playing as or against her since the change. Slinger I absolutely hate how they handled it, but I at least understand why: they were trying to address his ability to option select interactables to create lose/lose scenarios instead of mixup ones. They have no idea how to prevent that so they added a clunky mechanical delay that just ruins how he feels to use, but i don't necessarily disagree with them removing the option select.
A lot of times these decisions, and people's logic surrounding them, can be both wrong and understandable at the same time. Most of the time it has to do with missing data or considerations that can have a reasonable impact on the situation.
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I agree with your analysis. I would say a big part of skill in dbd especially on the survivor side is avoiding/preventing lose/lose from occurring in advance. I share same sentiments as you in regards to playing as and playing against both of these two killers.
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I mean there's always at least one person complaining about anything. That's like if I said "in a couple of hours, the sun will go down."
Shocking.
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That was already an issue before the nerf. Its not the cheaters, and DH currently is not a problem.
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I've never had a big issue with current Dead Hard. I've always regarded "take a hiy that would otherwise down you" to be the premise of the perk and my own idea had been "you only get the distance if you actually dodge the hit", which is essentially what the current DH does.
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Ahh DS2 pvp where you could make dumb builds before ds3 became r1 straight sword
Like others have said the most annoying thing is the very widespread auto DH or it basicly making projectile killers ussless
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first of all, don't worry about it too much, it's not something hard to deal with at all.
Second: If it is too popular, and speedrunning it's way to meta as you said, that should scare survivors shitless, not killers, because that means eventually they nerf it because it's way too popular. Just relax, dead hard isn't such a big deal.
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And thats absolutely an issue, just like it was before the change to the perk. The status quo regarding how they handle the cheating issue is something that continues to really need addressing.
But glad to see a fellow DS2 connoisseur, let one a pvp one :D
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Bruh... just play trapper, they can't DH over his traps anymore and it actually takes skill (or a script, from what I heard lately) to DH properly now
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"Arrogant Dreams of Superiority" That's what you say to people who use the perk. Seriously?
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this isn't a one person's issue.
the reason i complain about it now is that we had enough time after the midchapter to test the new stuff and form opinions and the way i see it now dead hard is becoming an issue again and the rework for it wasn't the best solution in mid-high mmr dh is making an often appearance at least one time in every other lobbies and killers yet again have to deal with the frustrations resulting from it ( being afraid to swing for a few seconds to bait it out and being forced to lose lose situations around pallets)
what's the point of a meta shake up if old perks like dead hard and pain res + dead man's are gonna be back again???
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trickster is a tough choice for a new player he's my main and the killer i enjoy the most next to nurse but i would recommend using other killers first or alongside him, for ex (myers and legion) they also deal with dead hard better.
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it's balanced now
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Ah, my bad, I forgot the winky face :P
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This is why this "meta shift" sucks. The meta for killers is still gen regression, and the meta for survivors is still anti tunnel perks. The meta perks changed, sure, but they're still the same type of perks.
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This is part of the reason why this community sucks. Running a perk in game = insult
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Usage of dead hard has gone way down and across the board but it is still a perk that extends chases and survivors have few of them to choose from.
Currently:
Lithe , BL, Sprint Burst, Dead Hard, Smash Hit, Overcome, Off the Record Of the three only 2 is not as situational as the others. Guess which ones?
Perks devs essentially killed: DS (8 perks)
Now, not only do killers have synergy with perks unlike survivors who are just skins, but there are more variety of perks that do the similar things which is to slow gens which has been Meta strat since the games inception:
Dying Light, Thana, Overcharge, Lullabye, Pop, Corrupt Intervention, Thrilling Tremors, Surge, Dead Man's Switch, Oppression,Eruption, Deadlock, SH: Gift of Pain, SH: Pain Resonance, Grim Embrace, Merciless Storm, Call of Brine, Tinkerer, Hex: Pentimento (arguably overwhelming presence but I will leave this off)
Perks devs essentially killed: Ruin (20 perks)
Now considering one of the best tools for survivors is looping aka extending chases and killer is stopping gens and they have 12 more perks to choose from ON TOP of built-in powers that also slow gens you tell me where you expect to see more variety?
If you want to change meta you don't nerf perks into the ground, you introduce alternatives. Being able to tank a hit is a strong advantage and until something equally as effective is released *which will never happen* for extending chases you will continue to see DH be used.
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While you are right in general, I think you took the whole thing way to serious, as it was meant as an utter jest. If you would read my whole post again you might notice, that I gave a very balanced opinion piece about the new DH, with its ups and downs and how its used and only in the very last sentence used this hyperbole. Its so out of sync with the rest of my comment that I thought that it should be pretty obvious that it was just a way over the top kind of joke and not in any way, shape or form serious.
But, as always with this things, in the internet you only hear your internal voice and without smileys, /s or quotationmarks, there is no nuance. So, pleace accept my appology for joking around in this manner and in return maybe sometimes give peeps the benefit of the doubt ^_-
Cheers
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if it used WELL tthe new DH is stronger than the old one.. before people would use it for a come back errors yes.. but also to make distance to a pallet to drop it.. now they use it and they get speed boost and DONT drop the pallet. so if itsa GOD PALLET .. well its still there
DEV you want to make the game balance.. TAKE OUT GOD PALLET AND GOD LOOP and SHORT THE MAPS.. dont care if is ugly.. if its fair its better than beautiful
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Buff other exhaustion perks and players will use them instead of dh
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lithe , sprint burst and arguably (overcome/smash hit) are pretty good alternatives and time wasting perks.
they give you decent distance and extra time in chase which what exaustion perks are supposed to do.
but you can't use them whenever you like to get a second chance at will you have to actually think and use them correctly the "skill" that a person running dead hard and just pressing it on react to get a second chance doesn't have.
sometimes there isn't any other way around making perks more appealing than nerfing the ones that are already heavily used, otr wouldn't have been used much if it wasn't for the ds nerf, aura perks wouldn't have been used much if bbq still had that bp bonus.
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Just because a perk is popular doesn't mean it should be nerfed. Perks are made to be used. This perk is now really hard to place, so any successful DH is well deserved.
If it gets popular again, then it's the players' agency that they choose to use it. Let's respect that.
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just like we should respect self care being the most popular survivor perk even after its nerf even tho it destroys solo q? it is the player's agency after all, yet we do complain about it.
but we're not gonna complain about dead hard cuz it actually helps survivor so even tho the point of the midchapter is to change the meta we're ok with it coming back like nothing has happened.
i wish dead hard really took half the skill people claiming it does but personally i don't feel outplayed by a lucky click of a button on react compared to a well used lithe or a 99 sprint burst.
not every popular perk deserves a nerf yes but dh has been popular for 6 years and people would like to see something different in their games you know? however you still have to wait a few seconds afraid to lunge cuz survivors may have a button to outplay you haha exhilarating gameplay.
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Self Care is actually nowhere near as bad of a perk as its average user's game sense on when and how to use it. Thats kinda the point they were making, as perks can have a variety of value based on how they are utilized. Some will use it well, others will use it poorly, but at the end of the day none of that has anything to do with the perk's inherent balance.
in SC's case there are cetainly more universally efficient solutions, but they all have conditions that go with them. Using them in a way that their conditions impact their performance is the same issue as it is with people self caring in a corner or right next to a huntress who has nurse's calling. They are allowed to choose because there is no perfect solution that covers all situations, and its a matter of determining how those variables will impact your value from the perk.
I'll take someone who uses self care well to properly go for saves or bait the killer away from the hook over someone who keeps chain cleansing dulls to keep inner strength up at all times vs a killer with pentimento any day.
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if it was pre nerf self care i might have agreed but now if you only use self care without at least botany you're throwing but then you would be limiting your build greatly when you can just bring a strong medkit and heal whenever you like twice as fast, or inner strength (yes you have to do a totem first but you can still use it whenever you like after and it ignores any anti healing/ aura reading perks)
that's ignoring the god of healing perks "coh". just in case you don't wanna pay/grind for it.
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