Tunneling
I don't care about the backlash to this post, I'm just going to say it...
If DBD is going to live on for more than a few more years, the Devs are going to need to implement better barriers/rules.
How after.. what... 7 years? Is tunneling and camping still a thing? Its pathetic that this still exists. I know they've made Borrowed Time base-kit, but thats not enough. Killers just wait it out.
They need to make it so survivors off the hook have infinite borrowed time, until they actually do something... like touch a gen, or cleanse a totem, etc. This is the only way to ensure Killer's wont tunnel. And if they do, that is the Survivors fault for doing something prior to being a safe distance from the killer. There is no downside to putting this in place... Its only infinite until they become a productive team member... if they never do, then effectively, the survivors are down a member. Honestly, I don't understand how simple solutions like this are not already in place.
Even if the survivor off the hook tries and takes advantage of their borrowed time, it will be gone after one hit. The benefits of implementing my suggestion far out weigh any negative opinions.
Regardless, if this game wants to continue to survive, the Devs, desperately, need to fix the issues in the gameplay. Tunneling and Camping should have been eliminated years ago. The biggest issues killers had was Dead Hard, and you eventually ######### that perk over, didn't you? But what I am discussing is not a perk... its gameplay. You want everything to be fair in your game. You want balance. It can't happen as long as killers have administrative rights to the game... the game literally goes depending on how the killer chooses to play. Tunnel... Camp.. Play with integrity.. completely the killers choice. Take away the choice, devs. Tunneling and camping is literally the worst thing people say about this game, but yet you still haven't implemented ways against it.. its so sad. I hope you figure it out. Maybe take my suggestion in this post, at least for tunneling. Seems pretty common sense, not sure why it took 7 years and outside opinions to think of this.
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If that was implemented killers would simply hit you as soon as you're off hook so the basekit BT will dissapear and then they'll carry on tunneling. You don't have to wait it out, it's just that waiting ten seconds is better than hitting and giving the survivor a speed boost as of now. It happens even in the current state of the game so I doubt that will be able to solve the issue.
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and survivors have been able to work on gens from 0% to 100% for 7 years.
I don't like being tunneled, but you can't stop killers from tunneling survivors without stopping survivors from tunneling gens.
Otherwise it would just be a hook-each-survivor-once-and-watch-them-teabag-in-exits simulator and that will surely kill the game.
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Camping and tunneling singlehandedly drove A LOT of players away from the game. Especially casual players who were trying to play it and have fun for the first time. I have about 5 friends I've tried to get into this game, and they deleted it after a few awful matches where they were tunneled and camped. They called it boring. Unfortunately, they were right. The reality is that newer players have no patience for toxic playstyles like camping and tunneling.
But the Devs are aware of these problems and have already begun taking steps to correct them. Patience, my friend!
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There is nothing you can do to stop tunneling other than making it completely impossible for the killer to play the game.
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I feel like save the best for last is one of the main culprits of tunneling being so effective atm. There are other reasons but I feel this perk is an enabler.
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You can meet the win condition as killer without tunneling, but you cant as a surv without completing gens. That's just a very bad take.
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You've got the analogy wrong. Using your interpretation, I could easily argue that killers cannot win without killing survivors.
It is possible for survivors to repair all 5 gens even if one survivor is not on the gen from start to finish. (They start the repairs and someone else finishes it).
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Imagine that while 3 or 4 survivors are alive, the killer is barred from ever hooking the same survivor twice in a row, and that the basekit Unbreakable prevents prolonged slugging.
Now imagine that while 3 or 4 survivors are alive, ONE survivor cannot get a single gen to 100%. It stops at 50% and another survivor needs to come and finish the other half. Two survivors working a gen together could 100% repair it.
They could even add a special item that survivors can hunt down and take to a gen to actually solo it the full 100%. Maybe even re-work the Brand New Part addon to let the survivor repair 1 gen all the way to 100% solo without having to go hunt for a Part.
The survivors get to play longer because they aren't being tunneled. The game lasts longer because the gens aren't flying.
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The biggest complication is regression. If a survivor gets a gen to 50% and leaves, the killer kicks the gen and leaves, and a different survivor hops on at 40% to add their 50%, is the gen stuck at 90% until the first survivor returns (or a third survivor shows up) to finish the last 10%?
Maybe the solution is to make 50% a checkpoint. Generators repaired to 50% cannot regress below 50% just like completed gens cannot be regressed, currently.
Post edited by Nos37 on7 -
they just need to get ds back the way it was before their "brilliant" global survivor nerf. as a killer getting 3 dh and 2 ds during a match, the desire to tunnel was gone, and camping wasn't a problem.
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Legion... Just that
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Exactly, BHVR are nerfing to the hell all gen defense perks for the killers, but they don't nerf gen speed perks or addons, recently all matches the gens are flying, it's rare now to see a bunch of potatoes playing if u are in high MMR, a chase of 60s is enough to probably lose as a killer.
If BHVR remove the ability to tunnel or camping, this game will be dead in no time, if the game don't have killers mains playing, we can't play this game, and if this don't happen, we will only see meta killers because this game will become a race of who kills or escape faster.
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tunneling --> you have basekit bt which guarantees you get another chance at a chase and you have ds which is also guarantees another chance at a chase if you're near a tile or a pallet this is more than enough counterplay for Survivors against tunneling nothing more can be done about it and people need to understand that.
camping ---> i agree and the devs already said they're testing a nerf to it in a ptb soon so idk why we're complaining still.
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Lmao inf borrowed time I can’t stop laughing I see survivors already use BT to body block I can only imagine a swf acting like a wall with this BS
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It's amazing how many killers complain abt genrushing when rancor + game afoot is a thing
Pair it with NWO and Remember Me it's a completely braindead strategy, like tombstone Myers but on any killer
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DS basically does nothing tho? Not to mention it punishes you for looping too long because it will expire if you don't let the killer down you immediately, then it only works once AND only gives you 2 seconds of distance as well as needing to hit the skill check (which you very well can fail)
Not to mention if your teammates do the last gen right as you go down then it can't even be used
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I can guarantee you it won't be dead lmao, it will only delete the most no skill strategies in the game
Plus, if you get genrushed a lot before you can hook them all more than once, you can just bring rancor + game afoot and that will instakill them when its endgame
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I don't have a foot in this race, but I just want to point out Game Afoot doesn't do #########.
It literally only works if you're chasing a very specific survivor.
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Game Afoot switches the obsession, allowing you to kill them with rancor
If the one you downed does not become the obsession after killing the original, leave them slugged and move on to find another at the exit gates
This is much easier to do however with an Intel, teleporting, or high mobility killer tho, I found skull merchant works the best since they cannot do the exit gates without you knowing when both drones are on them
Hag to an extent as well if the map is large, but only really with the mint rag. Or demo
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My you dude you have perks to counter tunneling and camping base kit perks to counter tunneling and camping and counter play to counter tunnelng and camping what more do you need? killers tunnel and camp because 12 hooking is impossble due to map design & gen speeds if you want things to change tell bhvr to stop giving survivors base kit perks and to stop making bad maps.
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No skill strategies... Well hold W is a "no skill strategy" and is a lot effective, sabo hooks too, u only press one bottom and it's done, BNP is one too, and go on, talking about no skill strategy when survivors are the one with the most tools to make the killers life miserable, killers just have 4 perks survivors have 16 perks in total and they all "stacks together", is all survivor have perks to rush gens and they are in the same gen, 30 to 40s and the gen is done.
BHVR needs to proper balance this game if they want to deal with camping and tunnel, and even if they need camping and tunneling, well... We have the knight, the huntress, dethslinger, blight, nurse, Demogorgon, maybe trickster, the new killer, and probably some others killers that can camp and tunnel pretty well away from the hook.
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People have been saying that tunneling is going to kill dbd for years now. I'll believe it when it actually happens.
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The best shot for Killers to "win" in the current win condition, the most certain alternative, is usually losing the 4th player, so it's what they try to do.
A killer doesn't know whether they'll face relaxed players or teams that stick to gens whenever they possibly can.
This has alway been the answer for "Why tunnels, why why why", it's the game's design really.
I believe they they should redesign a lot of stuff in this game; focus on what's actually fun and ditch what just ends up being 'chores'.
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"tunneling gens"
Dude is coimparing a gameplay exploit to doing the objective.
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To all the people in this thread saying "the killer should be able to complete their objective as soon as possible". You are aware Dead by Daylight is a party game right with no real win condition? People make up their this win condition, it is all fabrication. Lore accurate would be you making survivors despair, feeding the Entity until the Entity finally claims the survivor. You are supposed to gather as many points as possible and to do that you need to get as many hooks as possible. Tunnelling is detrimental to getting point.
With regards to your actual post...yes, tunnelling should be dealt with by the developers. It is not hard to come up with a solution. But he, camping has also been in the game for the past 7 years and only now are they finally getting on it.
As for all the us vs. them killer mains in chat. Yes, gen rushing is also a problem. That's why they need to implement side objectives. However, not every team gen rushes and still almost every killer currently tunnels. This isn't tit for tat, both are issues and don't mutually exclude each other.
Post edited by EQWashu on0 -
I meant objective as in win condition. Obviously the survivors should power the gates and escape and killers should sacrifice to prevent this from happening. But no where does it say you should do this as efficiently as possible. From the website itself: "Rack up Bloodpoints by hunting, brutalizing, and sacrificing Survivors while using your Killer power to devious effect. The more you let your killer instinct shine the more Bloodpoints you’ll earn."
My original post:
To all the people in this thread saying "the killer should be able to complete their objective as soon as possible". You are aware Dead by Daylight is a party game right with no real objective or win condition? People make up their this win condition, it is all fabrication. Lore accurate would be you making survivors despair, feeding the Entity until the Entity finally claims the survivor. You are supposed to gather as many points as possible and to do that you need to get as many hooks as possible. Tunnelling is detrimental to getting point.
With regards to your actual post...yes, tunnelling should be dealt with by the developers. It is not hard to come up with a solution. But he, camping has also been in the game for the past 7 years and only now are they finally getting on it.
To add: I think tunnelling at a minimum should cost the killer blood points.
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Balance will not exists as long as survs can be eliminated before endgame.
My solution to this is to tweak objectives. Not change, but tweaked:
Hooks are infinite, every survivor can be hooked as many times as they can. Being hooked lasts for X seconds after which entity breaks hook and release survivor, for that time those msurvs are unproductive. Survs can be unhooked by teammates, but this takes another person.
Trial lasts Y min, after which survivors either finished their objectives and are free, or they didnt and are killed.
This description is not polished, few things have to be adressed here like engame collapse, slugging, etc. But i hope You got the point: either all survs won, or neither.
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I understand the confusion, my bet. Tunnelling is repeatedly going for the same survivor. They get unhook, and the killer goes for them again immediately actively ignoring other survivors.
I once proposed a very simple system here to counter it: When a survivor gets unhooked they loose collision with the killer. This loss of collision remains until they perform a conspicuous action. Basically, the survivor cannot be tunnelled but at the same time is also not contributing to the advancement of the game (not doing generators and so on).
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Tunneling isn't so bad. It's face camping and slugging that are the real cancer to the game. And as soon as this nerf to face camping goes live, it's going to be a slug fest. Being slugged is probably my least favorite aspect of this game. Especially in the end game. I say let killers tunnel and then take a good look at slugging.
And delete the twins.
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Not bad idea but you can't tunnel gens remember literally the definion of tunneling got nothing to do with gens. The word you're looking is gen rushing. That is problem but not as big as tunneling which happens nesrly every game but both should be solved. Just repairing gens is not gen rushing but using perks, toolboxes and swf to coordinate and make them faster is. But problem also is right now gen repair times are too short they should increase them to 100s and nerf toolboxes and Bnb. On big maps gen could be increased to even 110s.
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Honestly I'd wish that was an extra game mode, survivors can just be hooked until the time is up or they are all hooked at the same time
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I really don't see how, and don't get the hate of slugging either when it's outside "slugging for the 4k" when there's only 2 survivors left
If you REALLY hate slugging more than anything there's always unbreakable, tenacity to make you faster, soul guard, or no mither
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100 seconds? Are you serious? That's 3 minutes and 10 more seconds. That's boring. And then on top of that, you want to nerf toolboxes/BNPs. I agree. I can get with that. But not the 100s. No way.
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The Survivor in me loves this idea, but the Killer in me does not. Having essentially perma-invincibility is just grounds for trolling. I can't agree with this.
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How can you troll? There is no collision and you cannot do anything. You cannot really troll the killer. The only people you can troll are your teammates. However, that is something you can currently do.
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That's an odd thing to say. You can definitely troll a Killer. Head On combo? Flashlights and sabos? T-bagging? Body-blocking doors with OTR? I think I'm missing a few more methods.
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I think the unhook BT effect should persist for as long as you're in the killer's terror radius or general area. That way if they do decide to tunnel you they won't be able to just wait out the buff. It would be a simple punish mechanic for tunneling survivors. They would have to rework the BT perk to do something else if they did do this.
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I ADORE using this build lmao. just go afk and hit one basic attack and all the sudden you have a kill its ridiculous. But combining with nwo or remember me wouldnt really work as well bc it has to be longest chase time. If you got a bunch of stacks of both you've probably had one or two long chases, long enough that someone can pop the exit gates and get more out than if you just brought meta.
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Chase the obsession all game, they have highest Chase time, when last gen pops u can use rancor, usually easiest to have em slugged first
Of course if it's 1 gen left you have to stop getting stacks and find and down the obsession before its too late
Almost always works like a charm. In fact I just had a game today which a guy looped me for 5 gens, no hooks or downs all game, and I still killed him and 1 other guy thanks to rancor + game afoot lmao
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Honestly, I don't think tunneling has EVER been THIS bad before. It's THE strat like EVERY game anymore.
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Its not a gameplay exploit it's literally doing the objective lol.
Survivor objective: Gens, so they should 0-100 gens.
Killer objective: Kills, so they should 0-100 kills.
Both are doing the objective efficiently.
Double standards will get us nowhere. Either its fine for both or not fine for both.
Expecting killers to stop a kill partway is the same as expecting survivors to stop a gen partway, both sound silly imo.
Post edited by MrPenguin on0 -
Double standard, if the killer can do kills "too fast" basekit than so can survivors with gens. They are both either side's objective.
Call it whatever made up word you want, both are just doing the objective efficiently and quickly. Tunneling a gen sounds fine to me because you're focusing that gen over all others the same way tunneling a kill is focusing that kill over all others.
But in the end what made up word we call it is just semantics, the idea is the same. The words don't have concrete definitions either, so both can be valid depending.
In my experience, gen rushing originally meant just focusing on gens, it wasn't until much later that I started seeing people adding 15 flavors of perks and items that need to be present to be considered gen rushing.
But your exposure and experience are valid as well.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
The difference is that with doing gens, survs are doing ho harm. While if killer tunnel it basically prevent one player from playing (not to mention that the player payed for the game to be able to play it).
Killers should be able to do their objectives efficiently (killing survivors) but no player should be harmed because of that - killers should be efficient without need for tunneling.
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That's on the devs to fix not the players. and the devs should tbf.
As is however, asking the killer to shoot themselves in the foot by purposely playing sub optimally while survivors can do their objective as freely and quickly as they want is asinine.
In order to be fair to the killer player, survivors need to also slow down their objective to compensate. If they don't want to they need to be ok with killers doing the same.
There is harm being done, you're costing the killers their experience/enjoyment as well by holding them do a different unfair standard. It's also not as if killers have fun when gens are flying and 3 can get done in their first chase.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
This is said every patch. Not by specifically you, but in general.
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Yes, and this is what are those threads about
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Yes that's how the thread started, but the thread as a whole also turned into people defending that it's not fine to tunnel but fine to rush gens. It seemed like you were supporting that idea with "The difference is that with doing gens, survs are doing ho harm". Which is why I talked against that point.
If that's not what you meant then I apologize.
If we address tunneling we also need to address the base gen speeds vs killer efficiency problem that gets skewed in the survivors favor even more than it already is if tunneling is removed.
Tunneling = focusing gens, so we need to address both at the same time.
I'm fine with anti-tunnel as long as killers also get anti-gen focus or they get sped up enough in chase/mobility to keep up with the gen speeds.
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I wouldn't count any of them as "trolling" just wasting time for the killer by making chases last longer.
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Survivors don't have another objective than gens to do so just doing gens can't be called gen rush. Killer has multiple ways to do objective camping/tunneling/slugging even 3 genning and spreading hooks and that can be placed in many categories some spread hooks until it's neccessary to tunnel some want 2 hook everyone some are very tactical about it and spread hooks between 2 players to get 2 kills quickly.
Survivors only has that one thing they can do. So that's why I call gen rush only if survivors bring tools to make them faster if it's not swf. Like I said gens are done bit too quickly so I would like to see them increased to 100s at least if it's swf. SoloQ can rarely make gens anywhere close to effiently and they suffer the most about tunneling.
Without perks or toolboxes I would call gen rush when survivors do only gens and don't save their teammate until last second and this is mostly done by swf. Well soloQ leaves that teammate definetely to get second hook. But killee can usually punish this kind of behaviour. Unfortunately survivors can't punish killer from tunneling unless it's swf again.
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That's not true survivors have totems and chest as optional objective. Killers actually only have 1 thing to do, kill the survivors. There's nothing else they can really do.
Everything you mentioned is just doing the objective in slightly different ways, its not different optional objectives.
You have it flipped.
There's nothing stopping solo's from doing gens quickly. They have a lot of other problems, doing gens is not one of them lol. They can spawn spread out and gens are easy to find. You don't need communication for gens, just people who actually do them.
That's more of because solos can't filter out potatoes like a swf can. But if you get a team with a brain gens still fly. You can't really do anything about bad teammates however. Signing up solo is rolling the dice on teammate quality like in any team game.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
My main point is that tunneling have to be resolved for the sake of the game, since players experience is what makes game being played. Gen rush on the other hand is more about game balance.
yes, those two have to be resolved at the same time since sometimes tunneling is only way for the killer to win, and everyone wants to win, so removing tunneling needs some other things to be done so that tunneling is not only not available but also not needed.
YET. If thread is about tunneling ONLY then we should focus on tunneling. Arguments about "if", "why" and "how" should it be resolved, without throwing arguments about genrush unless its the argument with "how". Only saying - no, tunneling must exist because genrush exist is not only silly, but also nonproductive, and presuppouse that because OP did not mention genrush means that genrush is OK in the thread is just as bad.
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I agree to your main point mostly, but gen focusing is also about the game experience as it make the game miserable for the killer and is a large part of what makes killer feel stressful to so many.
I'm not assuming that on OP I'm saying that to you since your comment brought up gens "The difference is survivors doing gens...".
If you don't want to talk about gens in the tunneling thread... then why did you bring up gens?
But if you're withdrawing that point then on everything that's left yeah I think we're on the same side at least somewhat. To me it appears that wires may have been crossed at some point.
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