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Tunneling
Comments
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When the killer tunnels,
he can't camp.
-Sun Tzu, The Art of War (probably)
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You're not wrong, but in my personal experience, I have never been tunnel this much to this degree
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Totems and chest are not objectives more of an side quest. So survivors only has one and only one way to do gens. Ofcourse we could count healing as objective. Maybe before if killer had hex ruin or devour hope as those could slow down doing gens sugnificantly. Like I said usually soloQ does them lot slower yes 1 out of 10 games you might get good team who do them fast. But most of the time when gens go quickly in soloQ is because killer made mistakes.
Killer primaly objective is to hook survivors that what the game literally says not just killing that's why survivors don't die when they get first hooked. Devs intended killers to go for hooks and survivors to heal and probably do some totems. But players ofcourse on both sides find more effient ways to play and take the fun out of the game.
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Yeah that's why I said optional objectives. Killers don't have anything similar to be doing instead of trying to kill the survivors. The defense "survivors don't have anything else to do" is false. If you mean they don't have any other main objective then sure. But they can choose to do so to slow down the same way they want killers to choose to slow down their main and only objective.
Killers primary objective are not hooks.
If it were hooks MMR would be based on hooks, but no, devs made MMR based on kills.
If it were hooks mori's wouldn't exist as a benefit as they skip hook stages to kill the survivor.
Kills are the objective.
Hooks are just the first and most common way to get kills.
For survivor it's the same, the primary objective is to survive and escape through the exit gates, gens are just the only way to do that. Otherwise MMR would be based on gens.
Post edited by MrPenguin on2 -
Killing survivors is not an exploit; it is the killer's objective.
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I'm comparing "tunneling" a survivor (repeatedly chasing, downing, and hooking one survivor until they have been removed from the match) to "tunneling" a generator (continuously working on a gen from start to finish). What's so hard to understand?
If gens could come onto the forums and post, there would be an equal amount, if not more posts complaining about being tunneled by survivors as there are posts of survivors complaining about killers tunneling.
You're saying "gen rushing" is bringing perks, items, and addons to speed up gens. I don't think that's comparable to "tunneling." It's comparable to bringing strong killers, perks, and addons to get quick downs or snowballs.
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I'm just going to say it,
"Tunneling" isn't an exploit, it's excuse-terminology invented by bad players and sore losers.
Survivors complete generators too quickly for every killer on the roster to consistently hook everybody in perfect alternating order, especially M1 killers, it's completely unrealistic and insane to assert otherwise.
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If mmr would be based on hooks that would punish killers going for hooks instead kills so that would be no good. Ofcourse 11 hooks and 3K is much more skillful than 4K with 4 hooks but it's best to put sweatiest teams agains't sweatiest killers. One flaw they need to fix is to increase softcap so 2000 mmr killer won't face 1200 mmr survivors.
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Tunneling has always mean in this game focusing on one survivor/player and chasing just him after he is unhooked. Gens are not people they don't have feelings that just absurd. Now it's killer who can feel bad gens getting done is that what you try to say?
The fact is soloQ can rarely coordinate gen rushing anywhere close to what swf can do. Gens before friends/healing is what I count gen rushing if there is no perks/toolboxes. But other than that is just doing objective normally.
Sometimes gen going fast is just bad luck if survivors spawned separatedly to fix 3 gens that should not happen. But the problem is gen times are still too short and killer regression is nerfed. So gens should be increased to 100-110s to compensate. But with condition tunneling nerfed.
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My idea to resolve both tunneling and camping, while at the same time keep premise of the game AND make it lorewise is to introduce timelimit.
Survivors cannot be killed before time is out.
Hooks and mories slows survivors down, but what kills them is the dawn (less litteraly since lot of maps are bright).
If survs repair all gates (and use BOTH exit gate switches) before time limit, they won, and killer is bannished (potentially punished because they did not make their objective). If survs failed before time is up, they are consumed by the Entity and are dead by daylight.
Of course this needs balansing over killer strenght, time limit and gen efficiency. But i Hope You git the premise.
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Hahahahahahahahahaha.
Gens aren't people. And doing gens is the objective. Tunneling isn't. That's why we advocate for either hooks being the sole objective, or anti tunnel mechanics. It's litterally IMPOSSIBLE for a killer not to get a 4k while tunneling. It's just not possible. Tunneling isn't doing the objective, it's taking the game hostage for 4 players by refusing to play it fairly.
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Getting put into your appropriate skill bracket isn't punishing the player.
MMR defines the win condition, that was the main point of making it besides attempting to improve how players were sorted.
Sweat just means trying hard to win. So yeah going for hooks is less sweaty because you're prioritizing that over that actual win condition of getting kills, so you're not trying as hard to win as someone who doesn't.
Your MMR is lower than your actual skill in that case because you're purposefully handicapping yourself for your own personal goal of hook count, but that's not the goal of the game itself.
"One flaw they need to fix is to increase softcap so 2000 mmr killer won't face 1200 mmr survivors."
Yes I agree on this. One of the problems is that the softcap is so low more than half the player base is above it.
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Gens not being people does not matter in the context of the conversation. It just "feels bad", which is a separate discussion.
Kills are the current objective.
Tunneling is trying to kill the survivor, 100% doing the objective.
It's not an exploit and it's not a cheat. Its 100% fair.
The devs have said tunneling is perfectly within the games bounds and not something you can report someone for doing in their game rules.
Source: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/139-game-rules
As for changing the main objective to hooks, I agree, but that's not what it currently is and what the game currently is is what was being talked about.
The game would be better, the devs should do it and rebalance killers to make it more viable. However at the time of posting this they have not nor announced any plans to.
Also holding the game hostage means you make it so the game won't end for one or multiple people, literally the opposite of what tunneling tries to do which is end the game ASAP. Going for hooks actually takes a lot longer so it would be closer on the spectrum to making a game last too long.
"It's litterally IMPOSSIBLE for a killer not to get a 4k while tunneling. It's just not possible"
I'm just going to assume you're trolling with this point and move on.
Post edited by MrPenguin on3 -
No it’s not. You win as a killer by killing all the survivors by any means. Tunneling is the most effective method of achieving this because it removes 25% of the survivor team’s overall pressure.
There are no rules against this and in fact the developers have said that tunneling and camping are all valid forms of play multiple times. They even state this fact in the forum rules.
If you want the devs to stop tunneling and camping then killers need something in exchange that is the equivalent of quickly removing 25% of survivor pressure.
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Outside of my personal opinion (I agree with OP). Yes, sadly all of my friends playing Dead By Daylight have left because of this. And I find myself after years of playing more and more drifting away from this game as well for this reason.
I have been taking more and more breaks from the game, and in between tunnelling/camping and matchmaking not working as it should...I have reached a point where I might just stop playing survivor (SoloQ).
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Tunneling IS an exploit whether the game is balanced or not. Is the game too survivor sided still today? Honestly I'm not sure. But there is absolutely no way to know that if Killers have a joker card they can use to have a 100% winrate. It's litterally impossible to lose.
Now, if DBD was competitive by essence, I'd understand using an exploit to ensure the win. Like, you want to climb the ladder, you use the tools you're given, no matter how unfair they are or how unfun they make games.
But DBD isn't competitive, there's no ladder, the main thing that can result in a win is blood points. Even ranks are really just nothing but ways to gain Bloodpoints And tunneling doesn't even grant bloodpoints. So you're only strealing a win that you don't deserve by playing badly and gain nothing out of it except you can say "I won by using a strategy that doesn't allow loss".
Do that in LoL, I understand, do that in CS:Go, I understand. But do that in DBD? Why?
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Developpers have actually acknowledged that camping and tunneling are extremly toxic for the game and promised to work on it (was over a year ago and camping is only finally removed now).
They didn't say those were "valid" strategies in the sense that they're fine in the game, they said it is a non reportable offense (which, as much as I am against those and find players doing it extremely toxic, still makes sense, cause you shouldn't be banned for something the game actually allows you to do. I remember having been temporarly banned from Overwatch for playing Widowmaker too much and while I was indeed not con,tributing for the wins much it's still a really stupid ban)
So, yeah, if you camp or tunnel you won't be banned but the game is currently dying because of it and won't last long anymore with this horrible tunnel meta. I think the game was more fun as killer 2 years ago than it is as survivor now.
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I'm just going to assume you're trolling with this entire response and move on.
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I mean that leaves my entire response unopposed as you offered no counter so fine by me. 👍️
Hold the L.
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Tunneling achieves 2 things
1) gets a Survivors out of the match... leaving the 3 remaining Survivors to finish the match
2) slows down the Gens progression
Cause this leads to the viscous cycle known as DBD
1) Tunneling leads Survivors to complete the Gens as fast as they can... cause they don't want to be the ones caught
2) Survivors whom have more focus on Gens leads to Killers Tunneling Survivors out... cause they don't want to have 5 minute matches
The base mechanics of the game are in need to a dire change... Base Gen regression, base hook timers, base bleed out timers, base Gen progression, Maps (but they are working on that)
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This is a false equivalence.
You're comparing focusing a kill to completing a gen.
Focusing a kill = focusing a gen, both sides can win by not doing this. Although not reasonably unless both sides do it, not just killers.
Completing a kill = completing a gen, neither side can win unless they do this.
You can meet the win condition as killer without focusing kills, and you can as survivor without focusing gens.
You can't win as killer without completing kills, you can't win as survivor without completing gens.
Post edited by MrPenguin on1 -
100% agree.
Most maps are honestly getting worse more than better when they update them and new maps have all been bad for a while now. Idk whose on that the map balance team but they don't understand what makes a good or bad map.
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So you agree on the map part... or the whole thing
Either way thanks (it does help my confidence)
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The whole thing.
I was just adding on that the "their working on maps" is technically true, but they're making the situation overall worse not better unfortunately.
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Oh ok... Thanks I thought I was alone
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Why? Because it's a player versus player game and it's starting to look like more than a few people have no idea what that means. What exactly do you think the killer is supposed to do? Use an ineffective strategy so you can take the W?
Killers don't like that survivors take the fastest route to completing gens, but that doesn't make it an exploit just because it's not fun for the killer...
Try to win in the PvP game LoL, Try to win in the PvP game CS:GO, but don't try to win in the PvP game DbD? Are you for real?
(I'll paraphrase the actual in-game manual) 'the killer is supposed to stop survivors from escaping using anything in their power.' What part of that is unclear? Because the entire activity seems pretty straight forward to me.
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Sweating and playing most optimally always ruins the games in the end just look fortnite probably prime example of that. It takes all the fun away. Same looks to happen dbd as it's becoming more sweaty. Tunnel/camp 5 gens left and gen rushing more common than ever 3 gens pop in first chase.
So put those kind of players only agains't each other. Sweaty tunneling killer should never face casual soloQ survivors. Casual killer going for hooks over kills should not face sweaty gen rush swf. Some amount of sweating is not bad if letting other side have some fun but when it comes to these strat that not the case.
Good example is that killer spreading hooks smartly and priorisating kills when he gets opportunity. Otz for example managed 80% win rate without any tunneling. Now what if he would tunneled when neccessary. But just proves hard tunneling every game is not always the best or only way to win but the most easiest and sweaty. Survivors should not bring toolboxes with BNP:s and gen rush builds. In match they should not prioritise gens over everything. Swf really just needs a nerf.
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Yeah you can optimize the fun out of a game but that goes both ways.
You can't really filter the players that way, the most you can do is improve the MMR system so that if a killer or group of survivors is playing in that way, they get placed into games where they have a fair shot at winning. Whether that's because the other team is also doing sub optimal strats or they are just outclassed to the point it doesn't matter.
Otz tunnels all the time. But he also plays the game for a living. 95% of the player base is not going to reach that level where they outclass almost every pub match they are in to the point they can play for hooks frequently.
SWF might need a nerf, but MMR definitely needs to be improved and the core gameplay needs some adjustments to be more fun for both sides.
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