BHVR gonna do anything about gen rush?
By 'gen rush' I mean survivors simply focusing efficiently on gens, because that's all it takes. Good toolboxes and certain perks can help shave time off but really all it takes for gens to fly are 4 survivors who actually sit and do gens at every opportunity.
I understand that balancing gen time is impossible, because the difference between 4 solo survivors just chilling/doing archives and a SWF (or even solos) who sit and do gens as efficiently as possible is massive, and you can't balance around efficient gentimes without making it almost impossible for the other group.
In the meantime though it just feels bad when I can find survivors and end chases quickly and still lose because that isn't enough slowdown on it's own. Against efficient survivors, if you aren't playing a top-tier killer you NEED good slowdown, and that's becoming increasingly harder to find thesedays.
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I still maintain that killer rewards should be mostly dumped into getting hits/downs/hooks instead of kills.
That way you could walk away from an 8 hook, 0kill game with tons of BP/Pips/Achievements without feeling bad. Instead of the current system where you don't get a whole lot for not killing anyone.
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Yes and no.
Doing gens is the only objective that actively progresses the game for survivors. Gens definitely can go too fast, but that is more a failure of how wildly they can vary in completion time, and lack of other things required to finish. One of Pinhead's biggest strengths is basically forcing one person to do something else, after all.
Until they normalize gen speeds and or add objectives, itll never get better.
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They just increased gen completion time from 80 to 90 secs
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That's the main issue, gen speeds can vary so damn much game-to-game. I'm sure we've all had games as killer or survivor where no one seems to really care about gens and it takes ages for any to even start getting done. Likewise there are games where they get done really early into the match and just keep consistently popping no matter what the killer does.
It all comes down to survivors sitting down and doing them.
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That was a while ago to be fair, and it wasn't really the best way of dealing with genrushing as is shown by it not really doing much to help with it.
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yep. basically the only thing stopping gens from going at least moderately quickly is survivors not doing their job. The killer can and should split pressure to slow them down, but in the end its 4 players attention span vs one player's average time to down.
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i think it is not variation that is bad. it is lack of reward for killer downing survivor that is bad. in fact you want variation in gen time. a bad killer that plays poorly should lose to gen-time. the issue with dbd is that you can be downing survivors lightning fast and still have close games as killer. this is especially true if you spread hooks very evenly.
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by gen time variation i mean more the extremes: 90 seconds here, 30 seconds or less there, there is just too much possible variation to balance properly. The more perks and items throw that balance off in either direction, the harder it is to properly account for.
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I think it's fine.
I might adjust the maximum and minimum times, but overall it's okay to me.
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i think you need a lot of gen stacking progression to notice variation that is significant.
@Krazzik In the meantime though it just feels bad when I can find survivors and end chases quickly and still lose because that isn't enough slowdown on it's own.
OP post is more talking about how you can find survivors in 20 seconds, do 30 second chases on 7 consecutive chases where the survivor does not loop a single tile correctly and yet you get an end result of 1 kill and 3 people escaped where half team is death hooks. It just boils down to the fact that killer have bad inherent base-kit slowdown in terms of rewards. you spend more time as killer hooking survivors then survivor spends going to unhooks from the 4:1 player efficiency stand-point. previously on a recent PTB, there was an attempt to increase healing time from 16->24 seconds to increase killer's pressure but the issue with higher healing time is that healing is secondary objective. There is certain point where opportunity cost of healing is worse then doing a gen where killer no longer gains slowdown from healing and the reward you get from that is instant downs on killer instead of game-slowdown.
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Tldr; Doing anything but adding more time would be an entire overhaul to generators, and this late in the game has killed that chance.
The issue with gen time is not the time itself but how its accomplished. You cant make gen repair take longer without survivors getting bored or tired of it, so its the simplicity in repairing gens that makes this so hard. Adding new mechanics for repairing is probably everyone's favorite idea but then you hit the same wall devs hit with making this work with every killer in mind.
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that was a year ago idk what you mean "just". Plus it wasnt an issue when they did that because they also birthed the gen kick meta, causing the overwhelming slowdown and gen time increases to tip the game into being killer favored. Now, since nearly all regression perks are dead, and survivor gen speed ups are untouched, its been reversed. Any killer without cray map mobility and/or built in slowdown with strong chase is going to suffer through 1 gen popping for every hook they get. Plus pain res is the strongest regression perk and punishes you for tunneling, meaning using it discourages using the most optimal (and annoying) strat.
almost no consistent regression + killer balance + survivor tools = gens too fast
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cut him some slack he fresh out of the hyperbolic Time Chamber
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It'd make killer a lot less stressful and allow them to lean more into casual builds, that's for sure. I don't think survivors would be mad about them making more BP from getting hooks and even 4k's either, and in all honesty more broken perks may be overlooked if the goal isn't fully kill oriented, depending on the severity of the perks. Heck, might even make some survivors try killer just for the boost in BP to throw on their survivors, who knows.
They could easily make it where the entity gains enough energy from suffering survivors on hooks without it being unfriendly to their lore anyway.
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Killers are getting at least 2 kills in 60% of games according to nightlight's most recent data. How high does this number need to be for you to be satisfied? Killers seem to be doing just fine based on the numbers. Make the game any harder and no one on the survivor side will want to play the game.
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Checking nightlights stats myself, it looks to me most killers are actually preforming below the desired 60% killrate.
The two strongest killers in the game are doing well enough (unsurprisingly). Nurse at 57%, and blight at 54%. But for the strongest in the game these numbers should pretty easily be above 60%.
For comparison, the officially killrate data from september last year shows that trapper had a higher killrate in the top 5% MMR with a 56%. Granted these statistics are from the gen kick meta. Nurse and blights killrates from those stats are sitting comfortably at 61%, minorly overpreforming at the top 5% MMR. But these stats are from the gen kick meta, notorious for having wayyyy too much regression and slowdown. if the two best killers in the game are just 1% above the desired numbers during that powerful a meta, then its no wonder they've dropped so significantly.
Nightlights most recent data shows that only 3 killers have actually gotten to the desired 60% killrate. Skull Merchant, Twins, and Pig. Skull merchant presumably at 63% because of her insane ability to stall games out, twins barely reaching 60%, and pig... is an outlier here. This data isnt super duper reliable anyway, either one of us could be completely wrong. Blight has the same killrate as FREDDY according to nightlight, so I guess their equal in strength. But either way if the killrates for the strongest are well below 60% than clearly theres an issue.
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Honestly, a Prove Thyself nerf is all that's needed to fix gen rush. This perk gives far more gen speed than any other perk.
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Well to be fair, if you don't chase / find Gen Survivors who have full perks and toolbox ready to go, then you will get gen rushed pretty fast. There are now many gen speed perks and good toolbox you can pair together to make gens fly.
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We have 2 busted killers atm (Nurse and Blight) and while they are around, gens times can't change.
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Since the last chapters all contained perks that increase repairspeed, i´d say there is little to no chance that gen rushing will be addressed.
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They just nerfed almost all slowdown perks. While made new perks on gen speed.
Games are same or faster than before.
There is currently no perk even close to pop / ruin.
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You missed the part where they nerfed healing as a compensation apparently. The trade off for it not being posssible to kick a 99% gen down to zero in the blink of an eye is that you cant heal up anywhere anytime. More people injuired, faster downs, faster kills, but also faster gens. Its WAY better that way than the average 20min+ games we had with the gen kick meta.
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getting 0 kills as a killer will never feel good no matter how many rewards you heap on them. 2 kills per match is the ideal number.
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BHVR just need to nerf toolbox and gen speed perks, they keep nerfing slowdown perks for killer but don't nerf survivors gen speed perks and addons, this is why games are became more and more hard as a killer, you literally don't want to make one mistake, when survivor can make 100 mistakes and still compensate the mistake with 2 chances or just rushing the game.
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This healing nerf is almost nothing in high MMR, survivors still healing pretty fast and making gens fast, play the game for yourself or watch some content creator and you will see, even now that have perks that reward healing others.
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I can hate gen rush, but what you said is true, some slowdown perks and others perks get nerf because some killers like call of brine and overcharge with the skull merchant, basically, some killers are making this game a problem to balance for everyone, one perk can make one killer extremely OP, but, BHVR needs to address gens speed perks, toolbox and addons, because if what you and I said is true in the future will we only see tier S killers with tier S addons and survivors with tier S perks and addons.
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And gutted most gen regression perks in a process. I'd argue if gen rushing was less severe in previous patches than now.
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Ofc. What else is to be done? You create single chase perk that has better numbers than dark theory and everyone screams nerf hammer - you included. It's much safer to create yet another useless "genrush" perk (scavenger) that will worst-case need to be butchered into obscurity (current version) - because the alternative (it being actually good) is game breaking (as was the PTB version of the perk).
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The content creator i watch is on a 450+ game winstreak as Nurse with no perks and add-ons and usually at least gets a 3k when playing other killers. And the rest of the people i watch mostly agree that the game is pretty balanced right now and by far not surv favored.
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Knightlight enjoyer?
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And everyone is a pro player or extremely good like him?
I think no
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How is that connected with nerfing most slowdown perks?
I don't want perks that affect mainly weak killers, or soloQ. Not really difficult concept. That's why I don't like MFT, that's why I considered eruption an issue and it's good to be nerfed.
Pop and Ruin were not bad for the game. Quite an opposite. Neither was Corrupt.
I don't really like their concept of 3 perks with each killer / survivor overall. I couldn't care less if they lowered it. Because of this system most perk are either trash fillers or broken. It's rare to see good and balanced perk. Sadly perks are what mainly sell DLC.
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It's connected, because creating new "genrush" perk is the only thing that does not give them such a huge backlash as MfT did. Even though there are many perks that are used MUCH more that don't get even a hint of same backlash. So the only reasonable outcome is to pump-up more genrush perks or thrash things that nobody will ever equip.
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That's somewhat connected with creating new genrush perks, which is connected with forced 3 perks per survivor/killer.
But it has nothing to do with slowdown perks, which they didn't made any new btw. Last decent perk killers got is Nowhere to hide. Rest is niche or complete trash.
Whole comment was about argument that killers should be fine when gens got nerfed to 90 seconds, but reality is clearly different.
I don't care about how used that perk is. WoO is most used perk by survivors, but it's effect is not oppressive against killer. So I don't see that perk as problematic.
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Gen speed is fine, map design such as big maps essentially speeds up gen times to where it is imbalanced.
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That's only really true for one generator. If multiple generators are done with Prove Thyself one after the other, those survivors are losing gen speed, not gaining it.
Prove Thyself isn't even at a problem at all, let alone the biggest problem. The biggest problem, and I disagree with OP here too, is toolboxes and their dedicated builds. If we assume nobody brought gen speed at all on the survivor side and they split up to just do gens, the killer has a lot of agency in preventing that because base gen speeds really aren't that bad. It's if they split up and they have a ton of gen speed from toolboxes and their builds that it becomes a problem.
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THIS
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Why is the desired kill rate 60%? IMO it should be 50%
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They're never going to fix gen speeds. I mean, look at what was supposed to happen when they gutted gen regression, healing was supposed to be nerfed too so that killers would have some form of pressure they could put on survivors, but then survivors cried and moaned and the changes didn't go through, so the game's stuck in this state where gens fly, and injuries continue to mean nothing because anything that makes survivors feel even the slightest bit stressed out doesn't make it into the game.
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Mabye BHRV could implement a mechanic like a constans slowdown, at five gens everything normal, but with every completed gen,the next one will be slower to done. but after this every top killer just gonna won almost every match, but finnaly bad killers like trapper and myers could go a fine game after 7years
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60% means that you normally get 2 kills, sometimes 3 and maybe 4 on occasion. i think that 50% might mean you are most likely to get a 2k, but the likelihood of getting a 1k is also kinda high.
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I thought it meant that they want at least 60% of games to end with a 2k….?
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They want 60% average kill rate.
Thing is 50% kill rate would mean killer is mostly losing. As a killer, it's not really hard to get 1k with camping in end game unless you give up.
So basically results of the game are not really between 0-4, but 1-4.
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Depends on your definition of losing though. Do you need a 4k to win? Most survivors consider dying losing so… I guess it’s up to what some ppl consider winning/losing.
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Play better do anti gen build
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For some reason, I've noticed gen speed increased tremendously.
Like even if I finish first chase within 5 gens, by the time I hook seconds 4 gens popped.
Were they cheating? did perk helped them THAT much? it's a mystery, but the speed was ridiculous.
I never really had pure gen speed like this, for the most part everything slowed down by a lot once game reaches 3 gen more to finish.
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The game's gen speeds are always probmatic, as for many average killers; it impossible to engage multiple Survivors in chase, seek many hooks instead of focusing on campin/tunneling for quick kills; as the Survivors objective is much slower. There needs to be another reward in injured/downing/hooking a Survivor.
A idea that I have in mind...
If the killer manages to hook Survivor A, they can go to any complete gen and kick it and take away 10%; to salvage the situation. Then they can repeat with a Survivor B, gain a extra 10% and so on with the next Survivor, Survivor C or Survivor D... Once everyone hook at least once, the killer can repeat the process again, but instead of Regression completely gens, they gain passive Gen speed penalty debuff, like 5% which can add up to maximize of 20% which each can last up to 60 second after each and every hook.
Such amazing Buff also comes with a amazing responsibility in managing your hooks; like... if you hook survivor A, then tunneling them afterwards; the rest of the Survivors get a small Buff of gen speed repair to punished you for tunneling more. If you also go for survivors B after hooking survivor A, then come straight back to Survivor A, the killer will get movement speed debuff.
Anyway to buff and give killers the ability to pressure the whole group of survivor with passive Regression and rewards for going for many hooks instead of kills; will be a step in the right direction. All while giving a advantage for Survivor agaisnt camping and tunneling killers. Of course, if all the Survivors are good at avoiding the killer in the first place, and not giving him any hooks; they will pressure the killer with no basekit regression.
Right now, without gen regression perks or decent killer slowdown powers; it sucks to chase a survivor and the other 3 survivor are busy working on multiple separate gens and knocking down two to 3 gens, before the killer can a down
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That would just mean survivors would always split up on gens, meaning you have multiple gens popping at once instead of 1
Yes this happens anyway but killing prove thyself would mean it would just be more frequent
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That's not true.
Prove thyself is still slower than working on multiple gens.
Prove thyself only negate part of penalty you get for working on gen together.
Edit: sry wrong comment. I guess I am too tired, can't even click on correct quote...
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well, I addressed only one aspect of your reply. I wasn't interested in those other parts
drawing (2K) is not loosing. It's drawing. If you make this fine distinction, then 50% kill rate is actually fair. It's just thanks to killers convicing devs that draw = loose, that 60% kill rate "is fair".
Ah. The ultimate dream for 3gen campers. But you will loose your excuse - it will never ever be survivor's fault for a 3gen. It will always become killer's decision and spawn RNG
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