Noticing a Trend...
Comments
-
How exactly would you be able to abuse this? Gimme an example.
0 -
Never said that killers never got changes and that the devs only care about one side. Don’t put words in my mouth.
Survivors didn’t have much trouble unhooking before BT became basekit. At worst, if one person went there would just be a hook swap. Only time it wasn’t possible was if it was Bubbi, who should have been changed a long time ago. But no, it was too hard to have survivors to work together (which is how they should play) to rescue someone so devs made it easier for them. Yet, when killers complain about gens going to fast, which results in a match that isn’t fun for them, the general consensus on the forums is “skill issue” or “git gud”. Why can’t that same logic be applied to survivors who struggle?
1 -
2 teammates rush the hook forcing the killer to stay near resulting in a forced self unhook. Repeated until only 1 survivor is left
the last teammate would be Jen jockeying the whole game
1 -
"If the devs cared for the “player experience”, they should show the same courtesy to killers that they have shown to survivors. It just seems that there is a double standard that it’s okay to cater to bad survivors and improve their experience by dumbing down the game but it’s not okay to do so for bad killers."
You have patches on killer specific things that did exactly that, for example on plague on the minimum amount of time you have to hold the power to use it. They literally did the same thing for killers.
Also killer is only one person so there is not really a need to compensate for the inability of communication inside the game between the team members.
The worst case if only one person comes for the unhook is not a 1 for 1 but, but literally just a re-down on the before hooked survivor, because without bt that was basically farming off of the hook in front of the killers face.
It is really hard to work together as survivors if matchmaking does not work properly and puts them together with a wide variety of skill and the inability to properly measure how good a player is, coordination without communication is also really hard, that is the main issue about why some changes were needed.
As for the killers complains, gens did already get prolonged by 10 seconds some time ago, they used to be 80 seconds, that's quite a lot. As killer you don't have a team you can complain about, you can still get unlucky with matchmaking and get people that are better than you and make it rough for you, but since people with way more hours have way less of a problem with that it is basically a skill issue, however coordination without communication stays hard no matter how good you are. Even really experienced players can mess it up if they think someone else will take the unhook while they took the hit and such.
1 -
So you have 3 people doing nothing? While one person dies on hook? (The person dying on hook included) There is apparently a certain range at which the unhook meter does progress, but so slow that you won't get the unhook before reaching 2nd stage anyway, at this range you can basically proxy it, if survivors are close to the hook the progress stops anyway. So tell me again how this is a problem? Because this just looks like a free win for the killer and the whole team not understanding the mechanic properly, you included.
0 -
If the killers far enough away they can just unhook
and as soon as they get unhooked the team goes back to doing gens while 1 person gets chased
also reassurance exists
0 -
I still don't see how it is "abusable" by swf? They want to prevent camping? So now camping is worse overall? You won't have any issues if you don't face camp, and if you proxy camp you're still out of range of the thing.
Yes a perk exists, so what? Is the perk only accessable to SWF or what is the point of that?
The effective range seems to be like 16-20 m or something like that at most? And as soon as the survivor runs in you can follow, since he is inside the radius and the progress stops anyway. Where exactly is the issue here?
0 -
The issue here is the same issue I addressed in the original argument, that if a survivor is within the 16 meter radius then it shouldn’t progress the self unhook timer, all that does it make rushing the hooks more effective by forcing the killer to either let the survivors unhook or allow them to unhook themselves, a lose lose for killers
1 -
Nothing you quoted states that I believe that the devs don’t care. They obviously do care, just not as much as they do for the Survivor experience. Just look at how long it took them to nerf keys compared to nerfing Moris. Look at how long DH and Circle of Healing were pretty much left alone for a long time until it started affecting the killer population and survivors had to wait longer for matches. I don’t blame them, Survivors are the cash cow of Dbd, it makes sense to cater to the majority. I just wish they cared more about the killer experience.
It is not really hard to work together as a team when it comes to survivors. The difficult lies in matchmaking and survivor entitlement. Now that we have the new HUD that literally shows everything going on, it’s easier than ever. The problems arise when survivors feel entitled to not have to contribute to their teammates well being, are afraid to even face the killer, or get upset because something didn’t go their way and DC or hook suicide.
Again, for rescuing a hooked survivor, it should be difficult, though not impossible, to do it. The killer is giving up pressure on the gens to secure a kill. A lone survivor should not be able to walk up in their face and pluck off their teammate. It’s not a 1vs1 game. It should take at least two people to rescue when the killer is there. And if they couldn’t, BT was a thing they could have brought in to help compensate, it didn’t need to be basekit. But, instead, to make things easier for survivors, rather than having them improve at the game, they made it basekit.
As for the 10 seconds increase, it’s literally negligible with all the things you can do to speed up gens and how 70% of maps are survivor favored with strong loop after strong loop. How long has the house in Garden of Joy been complained about by the killer community and nothings been done to it? Yet, when Wraith got a buff that took him from C tier to B tier survivors whined and he got a nerf in no time. How long have been killers been asking for an FOV slider? While they did announce it’s coming, it’s ridiculous how long it took for them to budge on it. Yet, Undying was nerfed into the ground because of incessant whining that “it’s too hard” to find glowing totems, only to find out it really wasn’t because survivors had no problems lighting and relighting boon totems.
The devs do care about killers, just not at the same level as they care about survivors.
1 -
They already accounted for this.
0 -
But it does not do that??? So what is your point even?
0 -
Keys and moris got basically nerfed in the same process or at least rather close by so I don't get that point.
The hook grab game was really stupid and I'm so glad it is done, the whole grab thing is buggy af and had the issue that on your screen you already stopped the unhook but you still get grabbed, it was just overall really annoying on both sides even, as killer I hated it and I am glad it is gone.
It needed to be basekit for sure, otherwise even with 2 survivors coming you could still just get farmed off of hook and that removed gameplay for that one person entirely, there is nothing this one survivor could have done to not get downed immediatly, also even with 2 survivors it is basically impossible to block the killer off completely from just downing the just unhooked survivor again. There is nothing they could do, there is nothing to improve without bt, it was required, otherwise just hitting the unhooked survivor again was a free down every single time, without anything to do against it. (Unless for some weird reason you get autoaimed)
The maps are an issue but the killrats on this map are apparently not that far off and since bhvr does basically everything stats it is just not affected enough to be on their screen.
Undying was stupid though, in comp they didn't even go for the totems because it took too much time compared to just powering through, it is not about finding 1 or 2 totems, it is about finding 4 or 5, I think current Undying is fine, just like current CoH is way better than the original one. Undying especially for Devour Playstyle.
As for FOV slider yes they take ages for basic stuff that the game should have had on release, this is nothing new or anything, it is what it is the devs are slow af. But I don't really see a pattern in one thing taking longer than another one? NOED has been in the state it was for years until it got changed, Blights ridiculously overpowered addons are still the same and so on and so forth, I don't think they are onesided and it is just your perception.
0 -
No, it took the devs a year to nerf keys. Survivors were able to have multiple escapes and not finish their objective.
Hook grabs were fine except for the bugginess. Rather than invest in better coding and servers, they did the easier thing and removed it, to the enjoyment of survivors.
No, it didn’t need to be basekit. Saying there was nothing they could do is false. Plenty of times people were able to save against a camping killer unless it was Bubba. You only needed one or two people in a team to have BT for effective rescues against campers. Good survivors also knew how to body block hits or get flashlight saves. And for all the whining about DS being nerfed, it was and still is effective at wasting the killers time unless it’s close to endgame and the resources have been used up. Survivors did just fine before it became built in.
Maps will always be an issue. The majority will always be survivor sided. This is intentional. Even when they shrink them like they did with the Artists map and the upcoming Borgo, not much gets changed with the amount of loops and how strong they are. Good survivors thrive on looping M1 killers for multiple gens. Video after video on YouTube and TikTok are a testament to this. It’s what attracts new players and their friends to the game. you can say you disagree, but the truth is, making maps fair is not rocket science. Loops can be spread out and made more mindgame-able so each side can have an equal chance at out playing the other, but instead we have walls that survivors can see through or objects like cars that they see over and under, forcing the killer to chase them around it three times until a pallet drop and off to the next strong loop. If things were more fair, both Nurse and Blight could have been brought down in terms of power a long time ago, but fairness isn’t something Behaviour is looking for.
As for Undying, no, it wasn’t stupid. Pair it with Devour Hope and survivors, even comp teams, would have to prioritize the totem. But people didn’t like not being able to rush their objective and just whined about it until it got nerfed. CoH is proof that cleansing 5 totems was no big deal for survivors if they knew that it would turn the map in their favor. They didn’t have a problem wasting the time to bless totems over and over. It was only a problem if the killer benefited from it.
The Devs slowness is intentional. It’s not that they’re lazy, it’s that they don’t want to change anything unless it affects the player population. It’s always a carrot on a stick with them, when the carrot fails to attract players after a certain time, they replace it with a shiner one.
Again, I do believe they care for both sides, I don’t believe that they don’t care about killers, but in the grand scheme of things, survivors are more important for them as a business and they have to prioritize them above killers, which is why they drag their feet when it comes to killer improvements.
It’s also why they don’t touch Blight or nerf Nurse. Those two killers are their scapegoats. So when people call them out one the imbalance of player satisfaction, they can say, but Nurse and Blight are free and only the strongest of survivors can compete with them, knowing full well that they’re too difficult to master for most of the killer playerbase, thus, not being a problem since they’re not common enough except in high ranks.
1 -
That was the entire question to begin with what do you mean?
0 -
That is what I was asking thank you for answering me
0 -
Well more like 10 months, but yes, you're right. I already played back then and in my memory it felt like it was closer together. Both were ridiculous and it is good they got changed.
And what did you do when you don't have bt? Because that was my exact point it is impossible to prevent an immediate redown without bt. So what you are saying there does not adress it. Sure if you ran bt you could do fine but that brought the other problems I mentioned before. So maybe focus on the points I'm making instead of changing them.
Like I said before when they only take into account stats nurse and blight are fine as for the maps. Those videos you mentioned are mostly a matchmaking problem. Well unless you are of course on the most ridiculous once of those maps then it is rather simple even at that level yes. But that's also the reason why the go for the more balanced maps in tournements and such, because otherwise it would be ridiculous.
In case you don't know that, old undying didn't take over stacks in the version that respawned more than once, so that didn't work so my point stays, they would just ignore it because it is more time losing to search the whole map for all totems. It was terrible and it is good it is gone. The problem was basically indefinite ruin, it just granted so much slowdown it was unbearable. Dude survivors bless the same totem over and over again, I have yet to see a match where they actually use more than 1 or 2 totems to bless, it is sometimes just really hard to find all totems.
Nurse already got nerfed though? They removed her strongest addons and made her blinks not basic attacks anymore, since then it is even argued that with addons Blight is stronger than Nurse since her addons don't add much to her total power anymore, something which never happened before.
Oh great so you can read their minds now... I would still just think they are slow or something, because purposefully keeping your game in a worse state than needed even though it might attract more players if you fixed it is a questionable choice at best.
0 -
No not camping, if anything I'm advocating for the sense of risk and danger experienced by the unhooking survivor. I have no concerns about hooks or camping when playing killer but do enjoy the tactical applications of them when playing survivor as the potential outcome encourages less reckless play. Turning the act of a rescue into a boring and riskless action has no appeal for me.
I would argue that the hooked survivor did have a chance to play and failed multiple times to secure additional time or chances. They specifically failed at avoiding detection and then failed again when unable to escape the chase. At this point a survivors efforts are paused as a result and become reliant on teammates to avoid the same failures to make a rescue.
2 -
I played that PTB. Nurse and Blight were not the only killers slugging all 4 survivors and ended games in like 3-5 minutes. That had to be a joke on your part?
0 -
Yes, both were ridiculous and needed changing, but the best thing they could have done was push the changes to both at the same time, not one before the other. Instead, to please the majority of the player base, they pushed out the killer nerf while stringing killers along for nearly a year, making it seem like keys were getting totally reworked when, in fact, it just had simple changes.
Perks are there to help cover for things you may not excel at or to make the game more fun. BT was there to make escaping a tunneling killer easier, but it wasn’t needed. All you needed was two people, one person to take the hit while the other to do the unhook. It’s what good, experienced survivors did. BT as base-kit now makes the game easier for bad survivors, more difficult for bad killers, and frees up a perk slot for good survivors. This is my issue with the games balance. It’s okay to make things easier for bad survivors (and letting them stay bad and not improve their individual skills and teamwork ability) but the community seems to think it’s not okay to do the same with bad killers and that it’s okay to let them struggle and just “git gud” .
While the devs do use the stats into consideration when it comes to balance, they also stated they take other things into consideration. The proof is in the fact that they gut perks that are used often to change up the meta and not because they’re too strong. I do agree that the stats have more of an impact on their decision making.
Yea, I forgot Undying didn’t transfer stacks, but that really only affected a few perks. To fix that and make it more threatening, they could have just made the stacks transfer. It didn’t need a nerf to what it is now. But they nerfed it due to the outcry that it was “too hard” when it wasn’t. Finding lit totems wasn’t hard. All you had to do was listen for the fires crackle or look for the glow. Gain enough experience and you’ll memorize most of the totem spawns. Still struggle with totems? There are multiple perks to help and maps exists. I have over 200 maps I easily hoarded just by using Plunderers. Countering totems were never difficult, survivors just didn’t want to bother and wanted to have tunnel vision with their gens.
I don’t need to read minds to know that a businesses objective is to make money and that they will do everything they can to maximize the amount they make. In Behaviours case, it’s catering to Survivors more than to killers. They don’t have to worry about keeping the game in a bad state. They get four chances a year to change things with the chapter releases.
Finally, the devs don’t get to call all the shots, their bosses (shareholders) do, and they’re usually shouting for maximizing profits irregardless of quality and they’re always looking at the short term.
Nothing has really changed in the dynamics of power with the game since it’s released. Good survivors have always(always will) had the upper hand. Things have just gotten less frustrating, less broken and easier to do.
1 -
Wraith got NERFED HARD by the speed up reduction after uncloak what do you mean? He's arguably probably the most addon reliant killer in the game. He guess have some very VERY good add on tho.
3 -
It is a one for one still if you unhook alone, so that's not really riskless, you still go down for it.
As for the second half, that's quite the generalizisation don't you think? You don't necessarily failed just because you got downed, you can get unlucky and the game is basically designed so the killer will eventually down you, especially with bloodlust.
1 -
You're still completely ignoring the part where someone gets just immediatly re-downed if the unhooking person does not have bt, the killer can just stand right besides the hook, let the unhook happen and down them again, how do you play skilled enough for this not to happen? I've asked this like 3 times now and it is getting absurd, because either you're ignoring because you cannot find a good answer for it or I don't know.
Yeah sure, that's why the wanted to nerf engravings, because they were way too good...
Dude if you seriously think it get solved just by using an item or a perk every single time because without it you're basically lost then we are once again at the issue why basekit endurance after unhook was necessary. No it is not that easy to find all totems, not only did it give the killer massive amounts of slowdown it was even possible that just the one last totem needed was somewhere at the edges of the map where you would never go, that's just not true it is not about being lazy and only wanting to slam gens.
I would disagree, unless those good survivors are comp level, everything below can still be beaten if you put enough time in Nurse, Blight or Spirit. And above that you can probably still win if you're just good enough, the game is not really sided to killer or survivor, but just to the side that plays better. And with matchmaking in the state it is it does not really matter anyway, since you will get a random mix of good bad and ugly anyway.
0 -
And yet you released this knowing it's broken on multi-level maps.
1 -
Except the solution implementation was poor. Why should killers who aren't face camping get punished ? Timer starts at hook. So if you want to break a pallet or reload or kick a gen the timer is running. Even if you leave immediately you build up time. Survivors can exploit easily. Who gets the advantage picking maps.... survivors so they will pick the multi level maps because a killer on another level still sets off the timer. I know it was added so you couldn't stand at the top of the stairs. Bad process. Just like scourge hooks both the survivors and the killer are aware of how dangerous the basement is. The hooks don't go away and players are cornered. Bit it's usually a risk to try and get the survivors to the basement unless you just get lucky. Opening a huge exploit for survivors will really hurt the game. The basement is a design feature that puts the survivor at a disadvantage but adds a lot to the game. But seriously they devs would have been better off removing basements than opening this exploit. I know a lot of killers who stopped playing over this rollout and none were campers.
0 -
Its not always 1 for 1, a trade is less likely now if the killer has not made contact before a healthy survivor starts the unhook. The amount if risk is situational to the survivor's status but is also completely reliant on the killer's proximity. Without injury prior to the unhook, the rescuer maintains lower priority when chooseing who to chase. 10s for the unhooked or whatever time sink for the healthy survivor. I have to imagine most killers outside of one-shots will count the 10s as the faster option.
Unfortunate situation do arise, still Im the only one to blame for personal awareness and any decisions made during that first chase. Escape is especially possible if Im that unlucky first chase since every pallet is still up.
0 -
The buff where they removed lightburn. They also added the ability to wipe out Hag traps without a flashlight
0 -
That’s a consequence or killers camping the top of basement stairs. I can’t really think of a way they can prevent multi-floor progress without basically making it so camping basement circumvents the mechanic.
0 -
There is still very much a sense of risk and danger for the rescuer, but that no longer comes at the expense of the rescuee. The survivor doing the rescuing is still very much able to be intercepted and can possibly trade places with the person on the hook.
The survivor who's hooked and being camped from first hook to death hook gets to sit there and do nothing. They are not, in fact, having fun. This is why camping is being changed. There is still risk. That has not changed.
0 -
Killers aren't being punished. The timer is proximity-based. The closer you are to the hooked survivor, the faster their self-unhook meter will fill. The further you are, the slower it fills. At the top of the basement stairs on Gas Heaven, it takes right up until second stage for the survivor to self-unhook. This doesn't sound like the huge exploit you're making it out to be.
0 -
Really so if you are hooked in the hallway of the school ground floor, your teammate is spotted on the second floor and keeps the chase above you. You get a free deliverance when the killer is not camping you and cannot reach you. Plus the timer starts on hook so it's ticking if the killer leaves right away, or breaks a pallet, or kicks a gen or even reloads. How can you say that this does not effect killers who aren't camping more than dedicated campers who with skill and add ons can still face camp at will. A bad solution that doesn't help. Going for terror radius is way worse as many perks and especially doctor rely on larger terror radius for their builds
1 -
I believe they took into account the killer being in chase near the hook, and made it so the meter does not fill.
0 -
Someone getting downed after the unhook would be a survivor error. Killer hits one, another unhooks, the two injured run and the unhooker takes the next hit after the killers wipe animation completes. If that was too hard for most, they could have selected to equip BT. They also had the option to equip DS (even after the nerf it’s still useful to waste time) to waste even more time. Dead hard was and still is an option to protect an unhooker.
And please, don’t tell me that was too hard. I have over 6000 hours in this game, the majority of it in Solo Queue, and I’ve seen it done plenty of times. The times when we didn’t get it done was because survivors were too scared to approach the hook.
The only time the above wouldn’t be possible was against Bubbi or someone with an Instant Down. Rather than giving basekit BT to survivors the individual killers ability to completely lock down a hook should have been nerfed, not give a buff to survivors as a whole.
Picking perks to cover for your individual weakness is part of the game. You can argue that you want to pick fun builds, and that’s fine, but you can’t expect to succeed in matches if you don’t pick the most optimal build, especially if the opponent doesn’t want to play casually.
Again, it was a much more massive time sink to bless a totem than it was to cleanse one. Survivors had no problem with it because it gave them a brokenly powerful ability to consistently reset themselves. Before it got gutted, CoH was in every match and multiple survivors brought it in and multiple survivors had no problem blessing and reblessing totems.
With the amount of times they spent blessing totems, they could have cleansed totems twice over. It really is about wanting to only loop the killer and do gens. Even now that NoED glows like a disco ball, people complain about it because they don’t want to be bothered to play carefully in endgame and spend time looking for it.
While matchmaking is garbage, there’s not much they can do. They don’t have enough players at all skill levels to properly match them against equal skill. The killers you mention can be beaten by good survivors. Not comp level, just good survivors who know the basics of looping, are able to look behind while they loop the kill and are not afraid to touch gens when the killer is occupied. The general consensus is that the game is killer sided in low ranking amongst the noobs while it becomes survivor sided the higher you go. At the very top, it always has and always will be survivor sided.
2 -
Hag also has to prepare traps that he doesn't actually use, but the survivors can just disarm the traps they want.
Those who only play survivor are obliged to learn what the killer actually does, at least when talking about balance controls.
0 -
2 wrongs dosnt make it right
0 -
And how exactly did the risk get changed then? If the killer wasn't close enough anyway then nothing changed?
0 -
How is it a survivor error when he hits the person that gets just unhooked without BT? If nobody has BT in the match???? That was my whole point and you still don't seem to understand it, you cannot make it anywhere since the killer would just hit the person that got just unhooked right away and just down the again.
You still seem to think I was talking about the unhooker getting downed again but that is not it at all, so maybe just read what I write for once.
0 -
It’s the error on the survivor that does the rescue. If no body brought it BT, it’s the error on everyone who didn’t bring it in. Even then, they didn’t need to have BT to pull off a successful rescue. Again, it only took two people without BT to make a rescue against a camping killer- unless they had an instant down.
It’s the same with killer, is it not? Gens go too fast? What’s the forums response to that complaint? Oh it’s “you’re just bad, get better at the game, abandon chase, bring in slowdown perks”. The same should be applied to survivors.
Again, it was not impossible nor overly difficult to rescue a camped survivor. If you’ve been playing since before BT became basekit you would have seen it happen plenty of times.
I’m reading what you wrote just fine, you’re just being obtuse.
0 -
Ok so apparently you simply cannot understand that situation that used to appear and that there is just no taking hits when the killer is right next to the person being unhook with no other survivor in between, so this whole thing is pointless.
Also do you see that, if the requirement to bring bt is so needed that not bringing it is a mistake this is a problematic thing? Because it limits perk variety?
I have no words for this anymore, you simply don't understand anything I say and are completely delusional about the outcome of the killer standing right next to the hooked survivor.... I ll give you one last try dude... Maybe this helps..
If the killer stands right there, so nobody can get inbetween him and the hooked survivor, and no one has bt. How exactly do you prevent the killer to just hit the unhooked survivor again and just down him again? Explain this dude? Because there is just no way, there was nothing for you to do about it, this is why bt was a necessity and why basekit endurance is great since the unhooked player actually gets to play regardless of the perks his team brought. And if you now still don't understand then I can't help you.
2 -
The second the killer hits the first survivor they lose collision and the next healthy survivor can unhook and body block to prevent the killer from hitting someone else. Again, it’s not rocket science. It may be harder than pressing m1 on a gen, but it’s not impossible or out of reach if people used their brains.
Nothing was problematic about having to bring in BT if you wanted to have an easier time rescuing someone. It wasn’t required if you had good teammates. Stop being obtuse about it. It what you said was true and it was impossible to escape a camping killer (sans Bubbi) the survivor population, especially soloqueue, would have plummeted a long time ago. I mean, if getting rescued was impossible people wouldn’t want to play anymore!
It’s funny how you want to complain about Perk Diversity when it’s expected of killers to have to come prepared with perks to cover for every situation. Killer complains about gen speed? “Apply pressure, bring in slowdown perks”. Survivor too hard to catch because they run to strong loops (like the house in GoJ)? ”Play a stronger killer, bring in anti-loop perks or simply abandon chase, just make sure you don’t tunnel or camp because we’ll complain about that too”.
Yea, BT as base is definitely great for survivors. It removes pressure from the killer and makes the game easier for survivors giving them yet another chance in a game that already gives them a plethora of second chances.
I don’t need you to help me understand anything. I understand it just fine. It’s okay to make things easy and convenient for bad survivors, but it’s not okay to do so for bad killers. That’s literally all it is.
2 -
So and what if he just hits the guy getting unhooked instead of a full hp one? If the unhooking person does not have bt he just went down... That's what was a problem If you want to acknowledge it or not.
0 -
I have over 6000 hours in this game, the majority of it in Solo QueueThe majority of players though don't have anywhere close to this number of hours.
But it does show the problem with camping:
It's an easy, no thought strategy for the killer
It wipes out new players
It is easily dealt with by experienced players
That's a bad feature.
If no body brought it BT, it’s the error on everyone who didn’t bring it in.It’s the same with killer, is it not? Gens go too fast? What’s the forums response to that complaint? Oh it’s “you’re just bad, get better at the game, abandon chase, bring in slowdown perks”. The same should be applied to survivors.Because these aren't the same at all.
As survivor you have to make a complete guess at how the killer will play. BT, reassurance, distortion, calm spirit, anti-totem, etc. I simply don't have enough perk slots to cover all the potential 'you should have brought X' to the game.
Killer on the other hand, its more of a question which perks best suit your playstyle. There's never a game were gen slowdown doesn't help, it might help more or less, but it doesn't just become irrelevant.
Finally, and most importantly, BHVR wants the game to be one where the killer pursues survivors off of gens, chases them, hunts for them, they don't think, and I agree with them, that camping leads to fun games. Whether a game mechanic is fun or not is the ultimate question.
1 -
He can’t hit the guy that’s unhooked if the healthy one stands between them and takes the hit. The healthy one can position themselves properly since the killer loses collision after a hit. Simple.
Even then, if that was too difficult for most people to do, they had the option to bring in BT, DS and UB to make the game easier for themselves. They weren’t required to play the game or win, but they sure did make things easier for survivors.
0 -
Dude that's the reason why I gave you the picture... If the killer already stands right next to the hook, like 10cm away, there is no being in the way. There is no taking a hit for this person. No matter what you do this guy will just go down again. That's why BT was so important and why it is good to have endurance after unhook, so you cannot just farm people.
1 -
Also the killer does not loose collision after a hit, only the survivor does.
0 -
Camping is only as easy as survivors allow it to be (unless it’s Bubba).
Survivors always had plenty of freedom to pick whichever perks they wanted. They could have came into every match perkless and still do good against most killer, as long as they knew how to loop and do gens. But we all know that survivors love to feel powerful, which is why they always brought in the strongest perks. Besides, the survivor is a team role, they should some perks to be team oriented.
People are supposed to play the game, gain experience and get better. But the general survivor consensus is that they should have their hand held. Even when I was new, I learned pretty quickly just by watching what my teammates did to save me. Heck, I even ventured into killer just to see what it’s like and learned how to be a better survivor by repeatedly getting my ass handed to me.
Behaviour have changed their stance many times. It doesn’t matter what their stance is on things now, my point is that there is a bias when it comes to balancing for bad survivors and bad killers. It’s generally accepted that it’s okay for bad survivors to be coddled while bad killers just have to get better at the game. It shouldn’t be this way though. If killers are expected to get good, so too should survivors.
1 -
When people camped and tunneled back then this is exactly what they did, they would just stand so close to the hook that no other survivor could fit between them and the person on the hook, so he would basically give you the unhook for free, and then immediatly hit the survivor that was just on the hook, if you did not have BT this guy was on the floor and seconds later on the hook again, if you had BT he might have to get another hit first. It is really not that hard to understand, is it?
1 -
Even with the killer standing right next to the hook, as you displayed in your magnificent drawing, it was possible for two survivors to bait a hit, unhook and then body block. The only problematic thing was the hook grabs, which should have been changed a long time ago, not giving survivors invulnerability. Even then, if this type of rescues was so hard and common, Survivors should have to consider bringing in the perk to help with it, just like how killers have to consider bringing in gen slowdown and anti-loop perks because of how easy it is to rush gens or loop.
I agree that basekit BT is a good feature for new/bad survivors since it will help them learn and give them more time in a match. I’m not against quality of life features in the game. I just don’t agree with the fact that the same courtesy isn’t applied with new/bad killers. Why haven’t they gotten a basekit Corrupt Intervention, Pop or Ruin? Why not give them basekit Whispers so they don’t have to waste time in empty zones?
Why is it always expected of killers to have to get good and survivors aren’t? Especially when killer is arguably the more difficult role and really, the main issue with Survivors are bad teammates and not their power?
And please, don’t bring up the added 10 seconds to gens. It really doesn’t do much with all the things survivors can do to speed up gen progress.
1 -
Do you want to address the fun point or not?
Survivors always had plenty of freedom to pick whichever perks they wanted.You're totally avoiding the issue that's its a complete crapshoot on the survivor side on whether they happen to guess right.
But we all know that survivors love to feel powerful,There's zero reason to believe this is anymore true of survivors then killer.
But the general survivor consensus is that they should have their hand held.You're not even trying to make an argument at this point, you're just disparaging motivations that you can't possibly know.
Besides, the survivor is a team role, they should some perks to be team oriented.Not BHVR's design, lots of things would have to change if this was true.
Even when I was new, I learned pretty quickly just by watching what my teammates did to save me. Heck, I even ventured into killer just to see what it’s like and learned how to be a better survivor by repeatedly getting my ass handed to me.Is personal experience the standard for proof?
Great, as killer I absolutely slaughtered survivors for the first few months I played. As survivor I was in turn massacred.
The numbers have evened off over time, but I will have a lot more easy games as a killer then I will a survivor.
It’s generally accepted that it’s okay for bad survivors to be coddled while bad killers just have to get better at the game. It shouldn’t be this way though. If killers are expected to get good, so too should survivors.That's not generally accepted at all. Especially given BHVR is only now gettinging around to address one of the easiest things in gaming, standing in front of a hook and waiting.
The only thing you've pointed out on the killer side is a pure balance issue, gen speed. Survivors are pointing to an issue, facecamping, and explaining why its not fun and how the ability to address it is really reflected by experience level in the game..
0 -
Bait a hit is nice, if the kiler just stands there waiting for you to unhook to just hit again then there is nothing you can do about it... This has my point for like 20 posts you will get downed no matter what, if the killer really wants to tunnel that one guy he always got the re-down without BT, skill did not matter at all. To bait the hit the killers needs to try to hit the unhooking survivors for which he had no reason whatsoever because his goal was to tunnel out the guy on the hook so why risk the easy re-down on that? The killer is in full control of that situation in my example. And unless they brought BT he will just go down again.
1 -
The fun point? Do you mean that it’s not fun for the survivor who is camped? Sure, I can agree. But if we’re going balance the game on the merits of fun while taking away agency, when are killers going to get base-kit Pop since it’s not fun for them to have two to three gens get completed by the time they get their first hook? How about a Bamboozle become base-kit to help with strong loops like the house in Garden of Joy? By making these perks basekit, killers can have more fun and survivors can still have their agency. Better deal for them since killers get nothing for the agency lost with the introduction of the upcoming anti camp feature.
I fail to see how it’s a complete crapshoot for survivor perk selection. Please explain.
I’ll concede to the fact that players on both sides like to feel powerful.
I disagree that it’s not by design that survivors are a team role and thus, should bring in team oriented perks to maximize their chances. You can’t complete gens without depending on your teammates ability to distract the killer. You can’t rescues yourself unless you equip a perk for it and even then you have to be a team player to get it to activate. It may not have been important to be a team player in the early days when the game released, but that changed a long time ago.
How does one get good at something? By practice and watch others who are better at it than you. You don’t get better at riding a bike by never removing the training wheels.
And yes, it is accepted that killers just need to get better and survivors need help. It’s all over the forums and social media. You have to be blind to not see it.
How is gen speed a pure balance issue and camping isn’t? The ability to give up pressure on gens to try and secure a kill is all part of the balance of the killer role. If it wasn’t part of the games balance, why is there a hook timer? Why not just let survivors respawn across the map after getting hooked? Because the devs balanced the game around killers of having the option to try and secure a kill with camping.
Camping isn’t an “issue” as you try to downplay it. It is a part of the game balance just as much as generator speed is, well, at least until the Devs change it.
2
