Noticing a Trend...

Never said that killers never got changes and that the devs only care about one side. Don’t put words in my mouth.

Survivors didn’t have much trouble unhooking before BT became basekit. At worst, if one person went there would just be a hook swap. Only time it wasn’t possible was if it was Bubbi, who should have been changed a long time ago. But no, it was too hard to have survivors to work together (which is how they should play) to rescue someone so devs made it easier for them. Yet, when killers complain about gens going to fast, which results in a match that isn’t fun for them, the general consensus on the forums is “skill issue” or “git gud”. Why can’t that same logic be applied to survivors who struggle?

"If the devs cared for the “player experience”, they should show the same courtesy to killers that they have shown to survivors. It just seems that there is a double standard that it’s okay to cater to bad survivors and improve their experience by dumbing down the game but it’s not okay to do so for bad killers."

You have patches on killer specific things that did exactly that, for example on plague on the minimum amount of time you have to hold the power to use it. They literally did the same thing for killers.

Also killer is only one person so there is not really a need to compensate for the inability of communication inside the game between the team members.

The worst case if only one person comes for the unhook is not a 1 for 1 but, but literally just a re-down on the before hooked survivor, because without bt that was basically farming off of the hook in front of the killers face.

It is really hard to work together as survivors if matchmaking does not work properly and puts them together with a wide variety of skill and the inability to properly measure how good a player is, coordination without communication is also really hard, that is the main issue about why some changes were needed.

As for the killers complains, gens did already get prolonged by 10 seconds some time ago, they used to be 80 seconds, that's quite a lot. As killer you don't have a team you can complain about, you can still get unlucky with matchmaking and get people that are better than you and make it rough for you, but since people with way more hours have way less of a problem with that it is basically a skill issue, however coordination without communication stays hard no matter how good you are. Even really experienced players can mess it up if they think someone else will take the unhook while they took the hit and such.

They already accounted for this.

Keys and moris got basically nerfed in the same process or at least rather close by so I don't get that point.

The hook grab game was really stupid and I'm so glad it is done, the whole grab thing is buggy af and had the issue that on your screen you already stopped the unhook but you still get grabbed, it was just overall really annoying on both sides even, as killer I hated it and I am glad it is gone.

It needed to be basekit for sure, otherwise even with 2 survivors coming you could still just get farmed off of hook and that removed gameplay for that one person entirely, there is nothing this one survivor could have done to not get downed immediatly, also even with 2 survivors it is basically impossible to block the killer off completely from just downing the just unhooked survivor again. There is nothing they could do, there is nothing to improve without bt, it was required, otherwise just hitting the unhooked survivor again was a free down every single time, without anything to do against it. (Unless for some weird reason you get autoaimed)

The maps are an issue but the killrats on this map are apparently not that far off and since bhvr does basically everything stats it is just not affected enough to be on their screen.

Undying was stupid though, in comp they didn't even go for the totems because it took too much time compared to just powering through, it is not about finding 1 or 2 totems, it is about finding 4 or 5, I think current Undying is fine, just like current CoH is way better than the original one. Undying especially for Devour Playstyle.

As for FOV slider yes they take ages for basic stuff that the game should have had on release, this is nothing new or anything, it is what it is the devs are slow af. But I don't really see a pattern in one thing taking longer than another one? NOED has been in the state it was for years until it got changed, Blights ridiculously overpowered addons are still the same and so on and so forth, I don't think they are onesided and it is just your perception.

Well more like 10 months, but yes, you're right. I already played back then and in my memory it felt like it was closer together. Both were ridiculous and it is good they got changed.

And what did you do when you don't have bt? Because that was my exact point it is impossible to prevent an immediate redown without bt. So what you are saying there does not adress it. Sure if you ran bt you could do fine but that brought the other problems I mentioned before. So maybe focus on the points I'm making instead of changing them.

Like I said before when they only take into account stats nurse and blight are fine as for the maps. Those videos you mentioned are mostly a matchmaking problem. Well unless you are of course on the most ridiculous once of those maps then it is rather simple even at that level yes. But that's also the reason why the go for the more balanced maps in tournements and such, because otherwise it would be ridiculous.

In case you don't know that, old undying didn't take over stacks in the version that respawned more than once, so that didn't work so my point stays, they would just ignore it because it is more time losing to search the whole map for all totems. It was terrible and it is good it is gone. The problem was basically indefinite ruin, it just granted so much slowdown it was unbearable. Dude survivors bless the same totem over and over again, I have yet to see a match where they actually use more than 1 or 2 totems to bless, it is sometimes just really hard to find all totems.

Nurse already got nerfed though? They removed her strongest addons and made her blinks not basic attacks anymore, since then it is even argued that with addons Blight is stronger than Nurse since her addons don't add much to her total power anymore, something which never happened before.

Oh great so you can read their minds now... I would still just think they are slow or something, because purposefully keeping your game in a worse state than needed even though it might attract more players if you fixed it is a questionable choice at best.

I played that PTB. Nurse and Blight were not the only killers slugging all 4 survivors and ended games in like 3-5 minutes. That had to be a joke on your part?

Wraith got NERFED HARD by the speed up reduction after uncloak what do you mean? He's arguably probably the most addon reliant killer in the game. He guess have some very VERY good add on tho.

You're still completely ignoring the part where someone gets just immediatly re-downed if the unhooking person does not have bt, the killer can just stand right besides the hook, let the unhook happen and down them again, how do you play skilled enough for this not to happen? I've asked this like 3 times now and it is getting absurd, because either you're ignoring because you cannot find a good answer for it or I don't know.

Yeah sure, that's why the wanted to nerf engravings, because they were way too good...

Dude if you seriously think it get solved just by using an item or a perk every single time because without it you're basically lost then we are once again at the issue why basekit endurance after unhook was necessary. No it is not that easy to find all totems, not only did it give the killer massive amounts of slowdown it was even possible that just the one last totem needed was somewhere at the edges of the map where you would never go, that's just not true it is not about being lazy and only wanting to slam gens.

I would disagree, unless those good survivors are comp level, everything below can still be beaten if you put enough time in Nurse, Blight or Spirit. And above that you can probably still win if you're just good enough, the game is not really sided to killer or survivor, but just to the side that plays better. And with matchmaking in the state it is it does not really matter anyway, since you will get a random mix of good bad and ugly anyway.

Except the solution implementation was poor. Why should killers who aren't face camping get punished ? Timer starts at hook. So if you want to break a pallet or reload or kick a gen the timer is running. Even if you leave immediately you build up time. Survivors can exploit easily. Who gets the advantage picking maps.... survivors so they will pick the multi level maps because a killer on another level still sets off the timer. I know it was added so you couldn't stand at the top of the stairs. Bad process. Just like scourge hooks both the survivors and the killer are aware of how dangerous the basement is. The hooks don't go away and players are cornered. Bit it's usually a risk to try and get the survivors to the basement unless you just get lucky. Opening a huge exploit for survivors will really hurt the game. The basement is a design feature that puts the survivor at a disadvantage but adds a lot to the game. But seriously they devs would have been better off removing basements than opening this exploit. I know a lot of killers who stopped playing over this rollout and none were campers.

The buff where they removed lightburn. They also added the ability to wipe out Hag traps without a flashlight

There is still very much a sense of risk and danger for the rescuer, but that no longer comes at the expense of the rescuee. The survivor doing the rescuing is still very much able to be intercepted and can possibly trade places with the person on the hook.

The survivor who's hooked and being camped from first hook to death hook gets to sit there and do nothing. They are not, in fact, having fun. This is why camping is being changed. There is still risk. That has not changed.

Really so if you are hooked in the hallway of the school ground floor, your teammate is spotted on the second floor and keeps the chase above you. You get a free deliverance when the killer is not camping you and cannot reach you. Plus the timer starts on hook so it's ticking if the killer leaves right away, or breaks a pallet, or kicks a gen or even reloads. How can you say that this does not effect killers who aren't camping more than dedicated campers who with skill and add ons can still face camp at will. A bad solution that doesn't help. Going for terror radius is way worse as many perks and especially doctor rely on larger terror radius for their builds

Someone getting downed after the unhook would be a survivor error. Killer hits one, another unhooks, the two injured run and the unhooker takes the next hit after the killers wipe animation completes. If that was too hard for most, they could have selected to equip BT. They also had the option to equip DS (even after the nerf it’s still useful to waste time) to waste even more time. Dead hard was and still is an option to protect an unhooker.

And please, don’t tell me that was too hard. I have over 6000 hours in this game, the majority of it in Solo Queue, and I’ve seen it done plenty of times. The times when we didn’t get it done was because survivors were too scared to approach the hook.

The only time the above wouldn’t be possible was against Bubbi or someone with an Instant Down. Rather than giving basekit BT to survivors the individual killers ability to completely lock down a hook should have been nerfed, not give a buff to survivors as a whole.

Picking perks to cover for your individual weakness is part of the game. You can argue that you want to pick fun builds, and that’s fine, but you can’t expect to succeed in matches if you don’t pick the most optimal build, especially if the opponent doesn’t want to play casually.

Again, it was a much more massive time sink to bless a totem than it was to cleanse one. Survivors had no problem with it because it gave them a brokenly powerful ability to consistently reset themselves. Before it got gutted, CoH was in every match and multiple survivors brought it in and multiple survivors had no problem blessing and reblessing totems.

With the amount of times they spent blessing totems, they could have cleansed totems twice over. It really is about wanting to only loop the killer and do gens. Even now that NoED glows like a disco ball, people complain about it because they don’t want to be bothered to play carefully in endgame and spend time looking for it.

While matchmaking is garbage, there’s not much they can do. They don’t have enough players at all skill levels to properly match them against equal skill. The killers you mention can be beaten by good survivors. Not comp level, just good survivors who know the basics of looping, are able to look behind while they loop the kill and are not afraid to touch gens when the killer is occupied. The general consensus is that the game is killer sided in low ranking amongst the noobs while it becomes survivor sided the higher you go. At the very top, it always has and always will be survivor sided.

2 wrongs dosnt make it right

How is it a survivor error when he hits the person that gets just unhooked without BT? If nobody has BT in the match???? That was my whole point and you still don't seem to understand it, you cannot make it anywhere since the killer would just hit the person that got just unhooked right away and just down the again.

You still seem to think I was talking about the unhooker getting downed again but that is not it at all, so maybe just read what I write for once.

Ok so apparently you simply cannot understand that situation that used to appear and that there is just no taking hits when the killer is right next to the person being unhook with no other survivor in between, so this whole thing is pointless.

Also do you see that, if the requirement to bring bt is so needed that not bringing it is a mistake this is a problematic thing? Because it limits perk variety?

I have no words for this anymore, you simply don't understand anything I say and are completely delusional about the outcome of the killer standing right next to the hooked survivor.... I ll give you one last try dude... Maybe this helps..

If the killer stands right there, so nobody can get inbetween him and the hooked survivor, and no one has bt. How exactly do you prevent the killer to just hit the unhooked survivor again and just down him again? Explain this dude? Because there is just no way, there was nothing for you to do about it, this is why bt was a necessity and why basekit endurance is great since the unhooked player actually gets to play regardless of the perks his team brought. And if you now still don't understand then I can't help you.

So and what if he just hits the guy getting unhooked instead of a full hp one? If the unhooking person does not have bt he just went down... That's what was a problem If you want to acknowledge it or not.

He can’t hit the guy that’s unhooked if the healthy one stands between them and takes the hit. The healthy one can position themselves properly since the killer loses collision after a hit. Simple.

Even then, if that was too difficult for most people to do, they had the option to bring in BT, DS and UB to make the game easier for themselves. They weren’t required to play the game or win, but they sure did make things easier for survivors.

Also the killer does not loose collision after a hit, only the survivor does.

When people camped and tunneled back then this is exactly what they did, they would just stand so close to the hook that no other survivor could fit between them and the person on the hook, so he would basically give you the unhook for free, and then immediatly hit the survivor that was just on the hook, if you did not have BT this guy was on the floor and seconds later on the hook again, if you had BT he might have to get another hit first. It is really not that hard to understand, is it?

Do you want to address the fun point or not?

Survivors always had plenty of freedom to pick whichever perks they wanted. 

You're totally avoiding the issue that's its a complete crapshoot on the survivor side on whether they happen to guess right.

But we all know that survivors love to feel powerful,

There's zero reason to believe this is anymore true of survivors then killer.

But the general survivor consensus is that they should have their hand held.

You're not even trying to make an argument at this point, you're just disparaging motivations that you can't possibly know.

Besides, the survivor is a team role, they should some perks to be team oriented.

Not BHVR's design, lots of things would have to change if this was true.

Even when I was new, I learned pretty quickly just by watching what my teammates did to save me. Heck, I even ventured into killer just to see what it’s like and learned how to be a better survivor by repeatedly getting my ass handed to me.

Is personal experience the standard for proof?

Great, as killer I absolutely slaughtered survivors for the first few months I played. As survivor I was in turn massacred.

The numbers have evened off over time, but I will have a lot more easy games as a killer then I will a survivor.

It’s generally accepted that it’s okay for bad survivors to be coddled while bad killers just have to get better at the game. It shouldn’t be this way though. If killers are expected to get good, so too should survivors.

That's not generally accepted at all. Especially given BHVR is only now gettinging around to address one of the easiest things in gaming, standing in front of a hook and waiting.

The only thing you've pointed out on the killer side is a pure balance issue, gen speed. Survivors are pointing to an issue, facecamping, and explaining why its not fun and how the ability to address it is really reflected by experience level in the game..

The fun point? Do you mean that it’s not fun for the survivor who is camped? Sure, I can agree. But if we’re going balance the game on the merits of fun while taking away agency, when are killers going to get base-kit Pop since it’s not fun for them to have two to three gens get completed by the time they get their first hook? How about a Bamboozle become base-kit to help with strong loops like the house in Garden of Joy? By making these perks basekit, killers can have more fun and survivors can still have their agency. Better deal for them since killers get nothing for the agency lost with the introduction of the upcoming anti camp feature.

I fail to see how it’s a complete crapshoot for survivor perk selection. Please explain.

I’ll concede to the fact that players on both sides like to feel powerful.

I disagree that it’s not by design that survivors are a team role and thus, should bring in team oriented perks to maximize their chances. You can’t complete gens without depending on your teammates ability to distract the killer. You can’t rescues yourself unless you equip a perk for it and even then you have to be a team player to get it to activate. It may not have been important to be a team player in the early days when the game released, but that changed a long time ago.

How does one get good at something? By practice and watch others who are better at it than you. You don’t get better at riding a bike by never removing the training wheels.

And yes, it is accepted that killers just need to get better and survivors need help. It’s all over the forums and social media. You have to be blind to not see it.

How is gen speed a pure balance issue and camping isn’t? The ability to give up pressure on gens to try and secure a kill is all part of the balance of the killer role. If it wasn’t part of the games balance, why is there a hook timer? Why not just let survivors respawn across the map after getting hooked? Because the devs balanced the game around killers of having the option to try and secure a kill with camping.

Camping isn’t an “issue” as you try to downplay it. It is a part of the game balance just as much as generator speed is, well, at least until the Devs change it.