Noticing a Trend...

So you have 3 people doing nothing? While one person dies on hook? (The person dying on hook included) There is apparently a certain range at which the unhook meter does progress, but so slow that you won't get the unhook before reaching 2nd stage anyway, at this range you can basically proxy it, if survivors are close to the hook the progress stops anyway. So tell me again how this is a problem? Because this just looks like a free win for the killer and the whole team not understanding the mechanic properly, you included.

I still don't see how it is "abusable" by swf? They want to prevent camping? So now camping is worse overall? You won't have any issues if you don't face camp, and if you proxy camp you're still out of range of the thing.

Yes a perk exists, so what? Is the perk only accessable to SWF or what is the point of that?

The effective range seems to be like 16-20 m or something like that at most? And as soon as the survivor runs in you can follow, since he is inside the radius and the progress stops anyway. Where exactly is the issue here?

Nothing you quoted states that I believe that the devs don’t care. They obviously do care, just not as much as they do for the Survivor experience. Just look at how long it took them to nerf keys compared to nerfing Moris. Look at how long DH and Circle of Healing were pretty much left alone for a long time until it started affecting the killer population and survivors had to wait longer for matches. I don’t blame them, Survivors are the cash cow of Dbd, it makes sense to cater to the majority. I just wish they cared more about the killer experience.

It is not really hard to work together as a team when it comes to survivors. The difficult lies in matchmaking and survivor entitlement. Now that we have the new HUD that literally shows everything going on, it’s easier than ever. The problems arise when survivors feel entitled to not have to contribute to their teammates well being, are afraid to even face the killer, or get upset because something didn’t go their way and DC or hook suicide.

Again, for rescuing a hooked survivor, it should be difficult, though not impossible, to do it. The killer is giving up pressure on the gens to secure a kill. A lone survivor should not be able to walk up in their face and pluck off their teammate. It’s not a 1vs1 game. It should take at least two people to rescue when the killer is there. And if they couldn’t, BT was a thing they could have brought in to help compensate, it didn’t need to be basekit. But, instead, to make things easier for survivors, rather than having them improve at the game, they made it basekit.

As for the 10 seconds increase, it’s literally negligible with all the things you can do to speed up gens and how 70% of maps are survivor favored with strong loop after strong loop. How long has the house in Garden of Joy been complained about by the killer community and nothings been done to it? Yet, when Wraith got a buff that took him from C tier to B tier survivors whined and he got a nerf in no time. How long have been killers been asking for an FOV slider? While they did announce it’s coming, it’s ridiculous how long it took for them to budge on it. Yet, Undying was nerfed into the ground because of incessant whining that “it’s too hard” to find glowing totems, only to find out it really wasn’t because survivors had no problems lighting and relighting boon totems.

The devs do care about killers, just not at the same level as they care about survivors.

But it does not do that??? So what is your point even?

No, it took the devs a year to nerf keys. Survivors were able to have multiple escapes and not finish their objective.

Hook grabs were fine except for the bugginess. Rather than invest in better coding and servers, they did the easier thing and removed it, to the enjoyment of survivors.

No, it didn’t need to be basekit. Saying there was nothing they could do is false. Plenty of times people were able to save against a camping killer unless it was Bubba. You only needed one or two people in a team to have BT for effective rescues against campers. Good survivors also knew how to body block hits or get flashlight saves. And for all the whining about DS being nerfed, it was and still is effective at wasting the killers time unless it’s close to endgame and the resources have been used up. Survivors did just fine before it became built in.

Maps will always be an issue. The majority will always be survivor sided. This is intentional. Even when they shrink them like they did with the Artists map and the upcoming Borgo, not much gets changed with the amount of loops and how strong they are. Good survivors thrive on looping M1 killers for multiple gens. Video after video on YouTube and TikTok are a testament to this. It’s what attracts new players and their friends to the game. you can say you disagree, but the truth is, making maps fair is not rocket science. Loops can be spread out and made more mindgame-able so each side can have an equal chance at out playing the other, but instead we have walls that survivors can see through or objects like cars that they see over and under, forcing the killer to chase them around it three times until a pallet drop and off to the next strong loop. If things were more fair, both Nurse and Blight could have been brought down in terms of power a long time ago, but fairness isn’t something Behaviour is looking for.

As for Undying, no, it wasn’t stupid. Pair it with Devour Hope and survivors, even comp teams, would have to prioritize the totem. But people didn’t like not being able to rush their objective and just whined about it until it got nerfed. CoH is proof that cleansing 5 totems was no big deal for survivors if they knew that it would turn the map in their favor. They didn’t have a problem wasting the time to bless totems over and over. It was only a problem if the killer benefited from it.

The Devs slowness is intentional. It’s not that they’re lazy, it’s that they don’t want to change anything unless it affects the player population. It’s always a carrot on a stick with them, when the carrot fails to attract players after a certain time, they replace it with a shiner one.

Again, I do believe they care for both sides, I don’t believe that they don’t care about killers, but in the grand scheme of things, survivors are more important for them as a business and they have to prioritize them above killers, which is why they drag their feet when it comes to killer improvements.

It’s also why they don’t touch Blight or nerf Nurse. Those two killers are their scapegoats. So when people call them out one the imbalance of player satisfaction, they can say, but Nurse and Blight are free and only the strongest of survivors can compete with them, knowing full well that they’re too difficult to master for most of the killer playerbase, thus, not being a problem since they’re not common enough except in high ranks.

No not camping, if anything I'm advocating for the sense of risk and danger experienced by the unhooking survivor. I have no concerns about hooks or camping when playing killer but do enjoy the tactical applications of them when playing survivor as the potential outcome encourages less reckless play. Turning the act of a rescue into a boring and riskless action has no appeal for me.

I would argue that the hooked survivor did have a chance to play and failed multiple times to secure additional time or chances. They specifically failed at avoiding detection and then failed again when unable to escape the chase. At this point a survivors efforts are paused as a result and become reliant on teammates to avoid the same failures to make a rescue.

Yes, both were ridiculous and needed changing, but the best thing they could have done was push the changes to both at the same time, not one before the other. Instead, to please the majority of the player base, they pushed out the killer nerf while stringing killers along for nearly a year, making it seem like keys were getting totally reworked when, in fact, it just had simple changes.

Perks are there to help cover for things you may not excel at or to make the game more fun. BT was there to make escaping a tunneling killer easier, but it wasn’t needed. All you needed was two people, one person to take the hit while the other to do the unhook. It’s what good, experienced survivors did. BT as base-kit now makes the game easier for bad survivors, more difficult for bad killers, and frees up a perk slot for good survivors. This is my issue with the games balance. It’s okay to make things easier for bad survivors (and letting them stay bad and not improve their individual skills and teamwork ability) but the community seems to think it’s not okay to do the same with bad killers and that it’s okay to let them struggle and just “git gud” .

While the devs do use the stats into consideration when it comes to balance, they also stated they take other things into consideration. The proof is in the fact that they gut perks that are used often to change up the meta and not because they’re too strong. I do agree that the stats have more of an impact on their decision making.

Yea, I forgot Undying didn’t transfer stacks, but that really only affected a few perks. To fix that and make it more threatening, they could have just made the stacks transfer. It didn’t need a nerf to what it is now. But they nerfed it due to the outcry that it was “too hard” when it wasn’t. Finding lit totems wasn’t hard. All you had to do was listen for the fires crackle or look for the glow. Gain enough experience and you’ll memorize most of the totem spawns. Still struggle with totems? There are multiple perks to help and maps exists. I have over 200 maps I easily hoarded just by using Plunderers. Countering totems were never difficult, survivors just didn’t want to bother and wanted to have tunnel vision with their gens.

I don’t need to read minds to know that a businesses objective is to make money and that they will do everything they can to maximize the amount they make. In Behaviours case, it’s catering to Survivors more than to killers. They don’t have to worry about keeping the game in a bad state. They get four chances a year to change things with the chapter releases.

Finally, the devs don’t get to call all the shots, their bosses (shareholders) do, and they’re usually shouting for maximizing profits irregardless of quality and they’re always looking at the short term.

Nothing has really changed in the dynamics of power with the game since it’s released. Good survivors have always(always will) had the upper hand. Things have just gotten less frustrating, less broken and easier to do.

It is a one for one still if you unhook alone, so that's not really riskless, you still go down for it.

As for the second half, that's quite the generalizisation don't you think? You don't necessarily failed just because you got downed, you can get unlucky and the game is basically designed so the killer will eventually down you, especially with bloodlust.

And yet you released this knowing it's broken on multi-level maps.

Its not always 1 for 1, a trade is less likely now if the killer has not made contact before a healthy survivor starts the unhook. The amount if risk is situational to the survivor's status but is also completely reliant on the killer's proximity. Without injury prior to the unhook, the rescuer maintains lower priority when chooseing who to chase. 10s for the unhooked or whatever time sink for the healthy survivor. I have to imagine most killers outside of one-shots will count the 10s as the faster option.

Unfortunate situation do arise, still Im the only one to blame for personal awareness and any decisions made during that first chase. Escape is especially possible if Im that unlucky first chase since every pallet is still up.

That’s a consequence or killers camping the top of basement stairs. I can’t really think of a way they can prevent multi-floor progress without basically making it so camping basement circumvents the mechanic.

Killers aren't being punished. The timer is proximity-based. The closer you are to the hooked survivor, the faster their self-unhook meter will fill. The further you are, the slower it fills. At the top of the basement stairs on Gas Heaven, it takes right up until second stage for the survivor to self-unhook. This doesn't sound like the huge exploit you're making it out to be.

I believe they took into account the killer being in chase near the hook, and made it so the meter does not fill.

How is it a survivor error when he hits the person that gets just unhooked without BT? If nobody has BT in the match???? That was my whole point and you still don't seem to understand it, you cannot make it anywhere since the killer would just hit the person that got just unhooked right away and just down the again.

You still seem to think I was talking about the unhooker getting downed again but that is not it at all, so maybe just read what I write for once.

Ok so apparently you simply cannot understand that situation that used to appear and that there is just no taking hits when the killer is right next to the person being unhook with no other survivor in between, so this whole thing is pointless.

Also do you see that, if the requirement to bring bt is so needed that not bringing it is a mistake this is a problematic thing? Because it limits perk variety?

I have no words for this anymore, you simply don't understand anything I say and are completely delusional about the outcome of the killer standing right next to the hooked survivor.... I ll give you one last try dude... Maybe this helps..

If the killer stands right there, so nobody can get inbetween him and the hooked survivor, and no one has bt. How exactly do you prevent the killer to just hit the unhooked survivor again and just down him again? Explain this dude? Because there is just no way, there was nothing for you to do about it, this is why bt was a necessity and why basekit endurance is great since the unhooked player actually gets to play regardless of the perks his team brought. And if you now still don't understand then I can't help you.

So and what if he just hits the guy getting unhooked instead of a full hp one? If the unhooking person does not have bt he just went down... That's what was a problem If you want to acknowledge it or not.

He can’t hit the guy that’s unhooked if the healthy one stands between them and takes the hit. The healthy one can position themselves properly since the killer loses collision after a hit. Simple.

Even then, if that was too difficult for most people to do, they had the option to bring in BT, DS and UB to make the game easier for themselves. They weren’t required to play the game or win, but they sure did make things easier for survivors.

Also the killer does not loose collision after a hit, only the survivor does.

When people camped and tunneled back then this is exactly what they did, they would just stand so close to the hook that no other survivor could fit between them and the person on the hook, so he would basically give you the unhook for free, and then immediatly hit the survivor that was just on the hook, if you did not have BT this guy was on the floor and seconds later on the hook again, if you had BT he might have to get another hit first. It is really not that hard to understand, is it?

Do you want to address the fun point or not?

Survivors always had plenty of freedom to pick whichever perks they wanted. 

You're totally avoiding the issue that's its a complete crapshoot on the survivor side on whether they happen to guess right.

But we all know that survivors love to feel powerful,

There's zero reason to believe this is anymore true of survivors then killer.

But the general survivor consensus is that they should have their hand held.

You're not even trying to make an argument at this point, you're just disparaging motivations that you can't possibly know.

Besides, the survivor is a team role, they should some perks to be team oriented.

Not BHVR's design, lots of things would have to change if this was true.

Even when I was new, I learned pretty quickly just by watching what my teammates did to save me. Heck, I even ventured into killer just to see what it’s like and learned how to be a better survivor by repeatedly getting my ass handed to me.

Is personal experience the standard for proof?

Great, as killer I absolutely slaughtered survivors for the first few months I played. As survivor I was in turn massacred.

The numbers have evened off over time, but I will have a lot more easy games as a killer then I will a survivor.

It’s generally accepted that it’s okay for bad survivors to be coddled while bad killers just have to get better at the game. It shouldn’t be this way though. If killers are expected to get good, so too should survivors.

That's not generally accepted at all. Especially given BHVR is only now gettinging around to address one of the easiest things in gaming, standing in front of a hook and waiting.

The only thing you've pointed out on the killer side is a pure balance issue, gen speed. Survivors are pointing to an issue, facecamping, and explaining why its not fun and how the ability to address it is really reflected by experience level in the game..

The fun point? Do you mean that it’s not fun for the survivor who is camped? Sure, I can agree. But if we’re going balance the game on the merits of fun while taking away agency, when are killers going to get base-kit Pop since it’s not fun for them to have two to three gens get completed by the time they get their first hook? How about a Bamboozle become base-kit to help with strong loops like the house in Garden of Joy? By making these perks basekit, killers can have more fun and survivors can still have their agency. Better deal for them since killers get nothing for the agency lost with the introduction of the upcoming anti camp feature.

I fail to see how it’s a complete crapshoot for survivor perk selection. Please explain.

I’ll concede to the fact that players on both sides like to feel powerful.

I disagree that it’s not by design that survivors are a team role and thus, should bring in team oriented perks to maximize their chances. You can’t complete gens without depending on your teammates ability to distract the killer. You can’t rescues yourself unless you equip a perk for it and even then you have to be a team player to get it to activate. It may not have been important to be a team player in the early days when the game released, but that changed a long time ago.

How does one get good at something? By practice and watch others who are better at it than you. You don’t get better at riding a bike by never removing the training wheels.

And yes, it is accepted that killers just need to get better and survivors need help. It’s all over the forums and social media. You have to be blind to not see it.

How is gen speed a pure balance issue and camping isn’t? The ability to give up pressure on gens to try and secure a kill is all part of the balance of the killer role. If it wasn’t part of the games balance, why is there a hook timer? Why not just let survivors respawn across the map after getting hooked? Because the devs balanced the game around killers of having the option to try and secure a kill with camping.

Camping isn’t an “issue” as you try to downplay it. It is a part of the game balance just as much as generator speed is, well, at least until the Devs change it.

But if we’re going balance the game on the merits of fun while taking away agency, when are killers going to get base-kit Pop since it’s not fun for them to have two to three gens get completed by the time they get their first hook? How about a Bamboozle become base-kit to help with strong loops like the house in Garden of Joy?

There's a few broken loops/maps, those should be fixed.

I'm not sure what base kit pop would do to stop gens from flying too fast at the start. I'm open to the idea that overall balance changes need to be made, but given how hard getting the last gen finished can be I think if they were going slower it would be a huge problem.

I fail to see how it’s a complete crapshoot for survivor perk selection. Please explain.

There are perks to counter killer strategies, but the survivors have no idea what the killer is going to run.

Lethal pursuer and other aura reading perks - distortion

Ultimate Weapon - Calm spirit

Camping - Kindred (if camped) or reassurance (if rescuing)

3 Gen - Potential Energy/Prove Thyself

Tunneling - Off the Record/Deadly Strike

etc.

Unless its a 4 man SWF, who could hypothetically meet all of the circumstances, there's no way for the survivors to cover all of that ground. And if you bring anti-camping perks and the killer doesn't camp, they are just wasted slots. That's were the crapshoot comes from.

Killer perks pretty much always get value. If you bring aura reading perks its highly unlikely ever survivor is running distortion.

How is gen speed a pure balance issue and camping isn’t?

Because camping is one of multiple things a killer can do, especially if we limit it to just face camping. Its a playstyle, an approach to the game. Survivors have to do gens, there is no secondary strategy that they can pursue.

If it wasn’t part of the games balance, why is there a hook timer? Why not just let survivors respawn across the map after getting hooked? Because the devs balanced the game around killers of having the option to try and secure a kill with camping.

I mean on the third sentence there they've said that the way camping gets used was never their intention.

Lots of things in the game were never their intention, some have worked out, some they've decided haven't.

The hook timer puts pressure on survivors to go for a rescue. The killer still has the ability to defend the hook, they are just losing the ability to do it in the most obvious way possible.

All you need to do to fix camping and tunneling is make it so the Killer can't hook the same person twice in a row unless there is only a single person left. This is what should be done to force Killers to go find other people. (Upon trying to hook the same person twice, the Killer gets a message saying the following: "THE ENTITY REQUIRES A FRESH SACRIFICE" or whatever). As long as your game continues to let Killer abuse a single person this problem will never be fixed. Don't ask them to play differently or even tempt them.... FORCE THEM to play differently. Simple.