Skull Merchant needs more bandages, BHVR...

2

Comments

  • RFSa09
    RFSa09 Member Posts: 346

    guys, stop holding W, that´s just dumb, adapt you gameplay around the slow movement speed, i play skull merchant and i faced some really good survivors, shack and jungle gym are the best tiles against her, and inf loops are useless if you´re claw trapped, same logic for the knight, artist, dredge or every other anti loop ranged killers

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    I denied wanting her deleted at the start? Genuinely what are you even talking about at this point. Just putting words in my mouth to make your arguments look somewhat better. Let me make this crystal clear. I want her deleted, however, I know that won't happen so I'm fine with some changes to alleviate the boredom of facing her. Never advocated for it or made it the main focus. You did. You made it the focus.


    I'm not asking for a huge nerf, another assumption made by you. Might be a professional at this point. I'm looking for a rework or small alteration for the health of the game.


    How would requiring an extra token make it worse? It only delays Skull Merchant drones from injuring you. What is your logic here because I think you're just rambling at this point.


    Which questions have I ignored? The ones ANSWERED IN THE DISCUSSION PERHAPS?

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    My solo queue doesn't. I play in higher MMR so there's that. No killer is balanced in the top 1% of players. Watch a tournament game and you'll usually see three escapes. Two if the killer is lucky and that's including all the survivor perk restrictions. The only killers that can compete really are Blight and Nurse and those are in debate of a nerf because the game IS balanced around solo queue.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Survivors face the most restrictions and yet they still get a 3 person escape usually, two if the killer gets lucky. Killers do get destroyed by tournament squads, but the restrictions help alleviate that.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Yeah a bunch of people's opinions on a killer. Are we going to invalidate it because we feel like it?

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Okay so hold W to counter drones but don't hold W because the 10% hindered isn't that bad. Nice.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495
  • Skillfulstone
    Skillfulstone Member Posts: 362
    edited November 2023

    Skull Merchant is still an issue, the core of the issue has changed however.

    Before, Dull Merchant could easily hold game hostages even against comp teams without really needing to think, now the issue has shifted where she can lock down entire sections of the map.

    This guy explains it way better, but the basics is that she still has no meaningful counterplay and downside to her power while having access to a multitude of effects that makes her much stronger than any M1 Killer like her in chase,.

    Chess Merchant isn't exactly dead, she simply stopped scanning a 3-gen, now she monitors every tile around the 3-gen to make running away a death sentence overtime.

  • jesterkind
    jesterkind Member Posts: 6,668

    Having played a bit more of Skull Merchant since my last post, I feel pretty confident that there's not much of a problem here. A skilled player is going to make her look nasty, of course, but there's sufficient counterplay that I've been able to deduce from my own games.

    There are two main ways you have to deal with drones; when the SM places them ahead of time, and when the SM places them mid-loop.

    For the first, the counterplay is twofold; keep an eye out for them and avoid them if you can, and much more pressingly, go out of your way to disable them between chases. This is all fine and above board, this thread wasn't about this even, just wanted to be thorough.

    For the second, my suspicions were correct, but there's sort of a secondary element as well. You do just run in the opposite direction and waste as much time as possible, she can only place so many so you'll get to a loop you can play at some point. Is this boring? Kinda, but she's not the only killer with this issue. The secondary element is that, because you actually have to be moving for a drone to scan you, there are a lot of loops where you can just... stand still and force the SM to commit to actually walking around to get you, at which point you drop the pallet and run away. Wasting time until she moves, and only getting scanned once (if that) when you do finally move.

    There's also the fact that being hit with the Hindered isn't an automatic death sentence within a loop. Clown's a good comparison here again; the reason predropping is so effective against him is that even the 15% Hindered he gets isn't enough to stop you from just vaulting the same pallet over and over until he commits to breaking it. Trust me, I say from experience that this absolutely works against Skull Merchant too.

    I tried to vary between placing drones mid-loop and placing them ahead of time, and while I won't deny there are some loops (like TL walls) that benefit greatly from the first strategy, I found that I had to use a mix of both that favoured setting them ahead of time in order to get any real work done. Skull Merchant may not be everyone's cup of tea but I don't personally think there are super glaring issues with her kit in terms of counterplay right now.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Thanks for coming back to the discussion and providing good advice. I'll give it a try later today. I'm currently arguing with people about how killers are not balanced around the top 1% of survivors and instead balanced around solo queue which I thought was common sense but oh well.

  • okaayletsgoo
    okaayletsgoo Member Posts: 108

    How would she be useless? One trap scan is 5% haste for free, no bloodlust or requirements needed. Go to next loop or survivor not being chased gets scanned? Another stack of haste for free. It would just make her less oppressive.

    Or if you go the hindered route, each scan hinders the survivor for 5 or 6 seconds helping to end chase.

    The problem with her is the stacking hastes and hindered combine is literally impossible to play against no matter how good you are unless it's a baby killer just learning the ropes. Nothing I said is unreasonable as she has a high kill rate just from my experience against her. I haven't had a single game where she didn't 3k. Again this isn't comp SWF this is SOLO q which is a majority of players.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    I denied wanting her deleted at the start?

    Am I calling for her to be deleted? Not at all.

    Really?

    How would requiring an extra token make it worse?

    What? Part of your power takes longer to active is supposed to be a buff or something?

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    She is worse at everything except stealth.

    You would want to nerf it by 50%, it would become on similar level before rework and it wasn't good.

    You would also want to butcher her claw traps. She is already way worse on getting claw traps on survivors. You should never get it unless you are in chase, you shouldn't even get tagged unless you are in chase.

    Most of her addons are around claw traps, they already bad, because of it and you would want to make it even worse.


    How would she be useless? One trap scan is 5% haste for free

    How would she be not useless? One trap scan is +3% btw

    Clown has 10%, whenever he wants. You can actually deny her speed boost.


     survivor not being chased gets scanned

    That should simply never happen regularly. You can just crouch, or disarm it whenever you want.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Yeah that is just entirely your own interpretation of that which made you think I contradicted myself. I meant I want her deleted, but I'm not advocating for it. Just an opinion statement that shouldn't influence others. I don't know what you're seeing here but I'm not asking others to want her deleted. Should be fairly obvious.


    It's meant to be a nerf as it allows survivors to endure an extra scan before they get injured/deep wounded. Literally the most straightforward thing.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    What are you saying then? Please inform me because I don't know. Genuinely.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    You asked how would it make it worse... Now you say it is supposed to be nerf.

    Nerf = Worse

    Literally the most straightforward thing.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    What are you even talking about? You asked for a change, I gave you a change (extra token = nerf) and now you're talking about buffs?

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    How would requiring an extra token make it worse? It only delays Skull Merchant drones from injuring you.

    What is point of this question when you are acknowledging it is a nerf.

    Nerf = Worse


    When at any point have I asked for buffs without any other change?

    I am just saying she is not in state where she should get straight nerfs. She is not strong enough for that.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    See now that makes more sense. I agree that a nerf would require compensation but, as of right now, I don't really know in what aspect she feels weak.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    Most interesting buff / QoL when we talk about increasing tokens for claw trap would be display number of tokens each survivor has.

    That's not going to buff her chase, or affect survivors really. It will just allow her different playstyles, kinda like ghost face where you can try to setup multiple survivors for claw traps and then go for fast down.

    It would definetly increase her skill ceiling.


    You can track it currently when your options are 1/2 or claw trap, but that would get more annoying with more tokens. You have no way to know if it is worth try to force claw trap or go for normal hits. Is 1 and I would just waste my time, or it's 3 and I should try to get it on survivor?

    Another issue is losing all tokens when survivor is hooked. You really wouldn't want to kill survivor with two M1 hits when they have 3 tokens just to lose all of that. Such a waste of time.

    Another issue are her addons. Most of them are around claw traps, which is already harder to get than used to and this would make it even harder. So just rework some of them for something usefull.

  • RFSa09
    RFSa09 Member Posts: 346

    you should not give her a free hit, loop even with the claw trap, if you can, hack the drone mid chase

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Hack the drone mid-chase? Oh my. If that doesn't give the most free hit ever then I don't know what does. You also seem to forget 10% hindered doesn't really allow looping with a claw trap on.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    10% doesn't allow looping, but clown's 15% does? It doesn't stop your vaults, so you can just camp pallet and outcome is exactly same.

    Hack the drone mid-chase?

    Not sure about console, but I can get it easily under 2 seconds, so it's not impossible on save loops. It's definetly funny to do.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Never said Clown's 15% didn't. It definitely does. If you can hack drones mid-chase, without getting hit, then I don't know what the Skull Merchants you go against are doing.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    You can't do it regularly, but it is possible and funny to do.

    So Clown is also not fine and should be changed, because you can't loop him?

  • adsads123123123123
    adsads123123123123 Member Posts: 846
    edited November 2023

    How is this conversation still going? Placing a Drone in a loop is like Artist, Knight, and Dredge. You just run to the next one.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    Funny is I consider drones weaker than any of those three...

    I would probably rate it:

    • Knight
    • Dredge
    • Artist
    • Skull merchant

    There is also a Trapper and Hag, kinda doing same thing, but I would say those are worse for this than Skull merchant.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    You can loop Clown by taking advantage of his long reloads. Clown should get quality of life changes however as he isn't the most liked killer to say the least and yet he isn't too powerful at the same time.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Because for Artist you can run into the crows which doesn't injure you or you can bait doing that so the Artist releases them. Two counterplays. Dredge is the exact same, but when he holds his ability he moves slower, allowing you to move to the next loop. An extra counterplay. Knight is a different story. You can't just run to the next loop each time against a 4.6 m/s killer (that developed bloodlust/haste) without getting hit.

  • adsads123123123123
    adsads123123123123 Member Posts: 846
    edited November 2023

    Against good Artist, there is no counterplay but running to the next loop. You're relying on mistakes that they won't make. Against Dredge, you can only run to the next loop if it's very close i.e. can be chained. There's also Trapper, which is 4.6 m/s and gains haste after setting a trap. Knight also has an addon that gives him a speed boost after setting a Guard.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    his long reloads

    If Clown reloads mid chase, he screwed it.

    What are you going to do anyway in a loop? Camp pallet? It's three seconds, when you are most likely to stand in exactly same spot...


    Why won't you take advantage of temporary immunity, which is also three seconds skull merchant drones have?


    You can't just run to the next loop each time against a 4.6 m/s killer (that developed bloodlust/haste) without getting hit.

    Again, if killer used power, they don't have bloodlust. So if there is no drone, you don't have to leave. If there is drone, why did you run there?


    Funny is with Dredge you actuallly have to leave loop. It's easy against him, but he is going to get hit if you stay there sooner or later. You can play loop against Skull merchant.

    Because for Artist you can run into the crows which doesn't injure you

    But it allowes her to injure you with next crow even through walls / loop / distance.

    With that logic you can run through drones, they are not able to injure you under 6 seconds and you would have to really try to catch all lasers. While you still get speed boost.

    You can bait crows? That's a counterplay?

    Well, you can dodge lasers by correct pathing.

    You can crouch for second, you can stand in check spot.


    It's funny what you consider counterplay with those killers is not really better what you don't consider counterplay for skull merchant.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    That's why I said bloodlust SLASH haste.


    You don't have to leave the loop against a Dredge. It's way better if you don't, otherwise he might cut you off with a locker teleport. I've looped a Dredge on the same loop countless times, just takes good mindgames. Never felt forced to leave.


    What would I get a speed boost from exactly? Running through drones does not give a speed boost. Also, Artist takes skill in order to line up the crows correctly and to predict a survivor's movement. Placing a drone doesn't, you just need to be near a survivor for it to work.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Trapper. Are we seriosuly bringing Trapper as an example here? He takes time to set up a trap and CANNOT move. Against a good Artist there's always a chance of counterplay. It's not impossible but it's very tricky. I've faced many Dredges and they are quite predictable. Just need to learn the playstyle and you'll be fine.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    How does she have haste if you left the loop? It's not something she can get whenever she wants unlike Clown...

    Drone is also not instant, you have time to leave when she deploys it. Which means she has neither haste or bloodlust.


    What would I get a speed boost from exactly?

    When you get injured by drones, you get normal speed boost. You don't just become broken.

    Artist takes skill in order to line up the crows correctly

    It's not really that hard to use in loops. It takes skill to get hits across whole map, but when you stack three crows in a loop, it takes skill to miss instead...

    Placing a drone doesn't

    Like most powers in DBD... Just because it is not difficult to press a button, it doesn't mean that power is too strong...


    Using Guard in loop takes skill?

    If I have The Carnifex as Knight, you are even more screwed. You can't even drop a pallet in front of me at that point.


    Using Remnant takes skill?

    Press a button, walk around a loop, if survivors gets close to it, use it, if don't cancel it...


    All of those are quite basic powers. Same for Clown, to use his power you need more knowledge than skill. But that's true for any killer.

  • RFSa09
    RFSa09 Member Posts: 346

    ´´if you can, hack the drone mid chase´´, if you can, some ppl are just guitar hero god level pro players and can do it in like half a second, you need to be safe for doing it like after dropping a pallet, if you can loop clown, you can loop skull merchant, why don´t you try to learn the looping? windows and pallets still a thing even with a 10% hindered

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Just did a five gen chase against one. All three escaped whilst I got tunneled off hook with no healing.

    I can loop Clowns.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495
    edited November 2023

    Clown needs to switch potions to use his haste ability which takes time.

    Drone is pretty fast nevertheless.

    Yes and Skull Merchants are aware of the speed boost and can play around it to render it null if you're zoned.

    The guard doesn't take any skill whatsoever, neither does the remnant. With the remnant it's just about decision-making which requires skill.

  • RFSa09
    RFSa09 Member Posts: 346

    so you shouldn´t have that many problems against skull merchant besides the free damage after some looping time, i hate deep wound so much lol

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    Needs to switch potions? Since when it takes time? It's button press again.

    Drone is pretty fast nevertheless.

    Unless you stay there / return it will never tag you. Even when I stand on top of survivor, they can run away from it.

    Yes and Skull Merchants are aware of the speed boost and can play around it to render it null if you're zoned.

    All those killers are aware how their powers work and can play around it. It's not different from skull merchant.

    The guard doesn't take any skill whatsoever, neither does the remnant.

    So why do you try to argue it's bad about Skull mechant, when those things are exactly same for many other killers again?

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Yeah and when you throw it, it doesn't go far enough and you need to hold back to get the effect. That takes time and isn't worth it most of the time.


    Yeah the drone will never tag you unless you run to another loop but here's the problem, most loops are far away on numerous maps. You're forced to stay there and witness the effect. Skull Merchant isn't slower when placing the drones to allow that.


    Because Dredge requires skill. You can't just hold the remnant and use the same strategy over and over again or you'll be predictable. Every single Skull Merchant is predictable but, with lack of counterplay, what can you even do about it? It literally feels like you're going against the same Skull Merchnt each game. There's nothing different about the games.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    Well I have a problem when my entire loop becomes inaccessible and I randomly receive claw trap tokens that I cannot acknowledge since I'm focused on the chase. Would be nice to at least have a meter on the bottom center of the screen to display that.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    You said you play in high MMR, but you are not able to look at HUD while being in chase?

    You can see laser passing through your body, that's not good enough hint? When it happens three times, you get claw trap, there is nothing random about it.

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    There's nothing different about the games.

    Again, like most killers...

    I will never understand why you try to hold Skull merchant to your "standard", which doesn't work for most other killers anyway.


    you need to hold back to get the effect. That takes time and isn't worth it most of the time.

    That's true only for max range throws and you said it's not worth it, so why bother talking about it? In your opinion it's something clown shouldn't do.

    When he is close range -> other side of the loop, there is almost no down time.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    No because I focus on where the killer is and react to that. I don't take time to count how much tiny circles or whatever I have around my survivor's portrait on the very left of my screen because it hinders my reaction time and that's a gg go next in high MMR.

    The lasers aren't always perfect thanks to server lag and I randomly do get scanned from time to time. I'm positive many others have as well. It's like Huntresses' hatches, they either become trucks or arrows.

  • mikewelk
    mikewelk Member Posts: 1,495

    You don't even know my standard. You just assume everything about me. Literally everything.

    Every other killer provides a different experience. If you think they're all the same then you must be going against the same players. Skull Merchant only provides two scenarios as listed in the discussion which has not been argued about. I'd be glad to.

    It's worth to talk about it because you want to compare them two. That's exactly what I'm doing. According to you then, half of his ability is useless. Why is Skull Merchant so much better than him then? Where's the balance?

  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    hinders my reaction time and that's a gg go next in high MMR

    You don't have time to look at HUD while you hold W away from loop?

     I don't take time to count how much tiny circles or whatever I have around my survivor's portrait

    You can see on survivor model, you got tagged... You are literally glowing red for a second. How the hell you are not able to notice that? That is in middle of your screen...


  • VomitMommy
    VomitMommy Member Posts: 596

    You just assume everything about me. Literally everything.

    Not really, I read what you wrote, notice it doesn't work for many other killers and point it out...


    According to you then, half of his ability is useless.

    Half of what? Clown? You are the one who said it's not worth it. I don't think so...


    Why is Skull Merchant so much better than him then?

    When did I say she is much better than him? I am just interested why you think she is an issue when he can do most of her things better.