My Game Primary Objectives Epiphany: The real reason for the SoloQ/SWF gap, et al.
This game should be fun...
I've recently had an epiphany about DBD... and it's reshaped how I think about everything in this game. I'm primarily sharing because, this series of thoughts has softened the blow on a lot of the more annoying aspects of this game, that I frequently see complained about... There is a fair amount of bittnerness and burn out for people on DBD, and my reason for sharing this epiphany is in the hope of reducing the frustrations a little for people to enjoy it again.
I do hope if nothing else, you enjoy reading my thought process on this topic as much I have writing it. 🤘
To begin....
There are a lot of things people complain about, and most of them stem from the same simple point, that 4 players on comms in the same team will simply be a much better coordinated and organised than a team of 4 players who aren't... and organised SWF's will give a Killer a much harder time... but outside of that, there are a few common complaints you tend to see and for the most part agree with:
- Why does the 50\50 hatch gamble still exist? Why make it so killers have to slug for the 4k?
- Why is suiciding on hook in SoloQ something that seems to not garner much attention?
- Why are there limited methods to deal with Rat survivors who hide and refuse to take chase all game, and no punishments for sand baggers?
- Why does the Killer seem to fall so short at the highest levels of play vs. a coordinated team in majority of cases?
- Why does pipping become so hard in the iri ranks? Why can I depip, even if I "win"?
- Why is tunneling\camping seem to be something BHVR isn't intent on limiting?
- Why are very short games via gen-rush with powerful toolboxes still such a prominent issue?
- Why did BHVR state they have no plans for basekit perks to help soloQ because soloQ are lone wolves?
- Why is the disparity between SoloQ and SWF left so unchecked?
All of these things seem antithetical to a 4 player team trying to survive together against a powerful killer able to match them... Why have a coin flip escape for 1 player if the team is losing? Why does players not engaging in the 4vs1 game via suicides, ratting, sandbagging or tunneling, camping not seem a big deal? Why are SWFs and full teams of toolboxes so strong compared to the killer, but SoloQ are not on the same playing field?
It started with post by Mandy in response to why there weren't more in game tools for SoloQ to match the level of SWF.
The image is thus:
She pointed out that in the game store, there is no implied cooperation between survivors... you can choose not to work with your team. Such a seemingly benign sentence that I didn't take too seriously, but the more thought I lend to this sentence, the more it keeps affecting how I look at DBD... and it's redefined what I've come to understand about what the objectives of the game actually are.
It's not enough to revolutionise your thought on its own however, so I started looking for other evidence, and it came in the form of bloodpoints, and importantly how bloodpoints are awarded... and this is where I think I finally get a lot of the decisions in this game...
The survivors are all primarily supposed to escape at all costs, while the killer is meant to farm them for fear...
The Survivors primary objective is not for the most players to survive... it is to deny the killer as much as possible, but most importantly ESCAPE YOURSELF.
For survivor your biggest blood point scores comes from repairing gens with great skill checks (300 per and max of 1250 for gens), rescuing other surivors from hooks (1000 or 1500 in EGC), evading the killer in chase (40 p/s) particularly with stuns/blinds (1000/500). Finally... escaping the trial for a massive 7'000 points.
This 7'000 points for surviving can't be understated, no matter how many survivors you save, you can even get 2 up off the ground, 1 off the hook at end game collapse, blind and stun the killer 3 times, and loop him for 2 minutes and get out of gate... and it would still not match the 7000 you would have gotten for just leaving...
The Killers primary objective is not just to 4k.... it is to cause as much pain, fear and crushed hope before killing all 4 survivors as they possible can.
For killer your biggest blood point scores comes from injuring survivors (especially in combo with your power), chasing all the different survivors reguarly (4 times each for peak efficiency), getting as many hooks as possible, killing all survivors with a mori or sacrificing when the end game collapse has started.
This is why if you camp/tunnel but get a 4k, you don't usually get as many points as 10 hooks with a 2k. Every hook on a surivor is points for chasing(400) / hitting(2x300) / hooking (200 + 500) / using power to slow, stun, spook survivors (varied). The entity summon/sacrifice reward is only 200, if you camped/tunneled and forced hook stages, you are actively missing out on getting all your bonuses for chases and hits through 2 health stages... On average your typical hook should net you roughly 2500 points at least...
If you manage to kill all 4, your bonus for doing so is only 2500... The 2-4 hook stages you may deny yourself from Survivor hooks (assuming you could dominate and win completely) is losing anywhere between 4000 and 10'000 points... ofc that decision may be taken out of your hands, and you risk getting nothing, that is balance that must be struck... but your goal is not to 4k perce'... it's to get as many hooks and procs of your power as you possibly can... however you do it.
Now it makes a lot more sense...
When you look at the game through this lens, suddenly a lot of things that we all complain about start to make a lot more sense.
- Hatch lottery and slug for the 4k? Survivors are not necessarily working together, the survivor could and SHOULD abandon their teammate to save themselves. If the killer can't use altruism to secure their forth kill, they have to hunt while their quarry hides....
- Suicide on hook? The survivors are not a team working together... if 1 player is useless to your goal of escaping, your new objective is to either work doubly hard to get out... or outlive the other survivors... but if you give in too early and try to just go for the escape, the other survivors may do the same and you put the game on a dice roll of who gets found first. The game is still not over...
- Rat survivors/ sandbaggers not a problem? See the above point. You may even decide to lure the killer to that Rat player, capitalising on the Killer's primary objective. Sole Survivor remaining as it is suddenly makes far more sense.
- SWFs extremely tough at high level? Just like real life, people who know each other and work together will do better than people who don't. SWFs are deprioritising the main Survivor bonus, and changing the game to where Killer's can use their altruism against them. Generally speaking this down grade doesn't give enough of a trade off for the benefits it brings, but the whole dynamic of the game is different because unlike at DBD base... the Survivors now actually ARE a team trying to get everyone out alive, and strong teamwork should and usually does prevail.... but a bad mistake and it can all go badly wrong very quickly. High level teams don't tend to and can't be forced to make the bad mistake the killer needs, hence the disparity.
- Strong toolbox teams? These still exist because survivors are not necessarily working together, so same as above, when a team of survivors is pulling in the same direction, the strategy should be, and is very strong. Again strong teamwork should, and usually does prevail... but if the killer manages to guess, build for and break their plan, it can quickly snowball against less coordinated teams.
- Tunneling/camping not a problem? The killer is already actively limiting their points scoring doing this, and by extension their ability to rank up. They are not scoring chases, they are not scoring more hits, and they are not working towards maximum hooks. This is caused by the above points with SWFs and the need to use SWF altruism against them... SWFs will win more often, so as a solo, you get the same stick by proximity. Again your goal is to consider how best to escape for yourself. Have you got/do you use the time to do generators while the killer isn't chasing? Do you let your other teammates try to save, and let the whole team die to save yourself? Do you join in the attempts to save to keep that player alive to buy more gen time for you in the long haul? If you are the tunneled player, can you do anything to extend your time alive for the chance to escape? Can you get hatch or get body blocked to gate? It's a crap question to answer... but it is a question that you still need to answer.
- Depip even if I win? In both cases, rushing to game completion denies you chances to score your other objectives. For killers you simply haven't satisfied your condition of causing as much pain and fear as possible, but for survivors you haven't denied the killer enough to rank up... but if you escaped, you will very rarely depip as you are still within your primary goal.... but if you died... you failed your goal and are much more likely to depip, even if you did well.
The true disparity of SoloQ and SWF
- No further plans for SoloQ buffs? SoloQ is chaotic and a different experience to SWF. You can't trust your team mates, both in skill and intent... just like real life... this is the experience the game is trying to capture. Your goal is to SURVIVE... how you do it is up to you, and you shouldn't be railroaded into supporting the survivor team with teammwork buffs... because that is not necessarily YOUR best chance of survival.
The reason this disparity between SWF and soloQ is allowed is because SoloQ is not SWF. I know that sounds stupid... but really think about... you don't know who you can trust to have your back in this survival horror game. Your goals with other survivors broadly align... but ultimately, you goal is to survive, and you can never fully trust other SoloQ players to save you, either by skill or inclination.
Whether we like it or not... this game is not a true 4 vs 1 unless you're in a SWF... it is 4 players each trying to win their trial against 1 player... and that is not the same thing. The actual game for you as a survivor is to not die, by any means necessary...
Final Word
I hope you enjoyed the read. This was just an interesting thought that reminded me of the Co-Petative genre I've seen in board games.... remember no good deed goes unpunished...
Since having the above revalations, a lot of the above things haven't irritated me nearly as much... I'm at peace with pretty much all of them, and it's made my gaming experience a little more enjoyable overall.
See you in the fog! 😁
Comments
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I've always said that Soloq is not 4vs1, it's every man for himself
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She pointed out that in the game store, there is no implied cooperation between survivors... you can choose not to work with your team. Such a seemingly benign sentence that I didn't take too seriously, but the more thought I lend to this sentence, the more it keeps affecting how I look at DBD... and it's redefined what I've come to understand about what the objectives of the game actually are.
That response really does not make much sense because the survivor generator objective is joined objective. you can't just do 1 gen and suddenly open exit gate for yourself leaving the rest behind. You have to finish all 5 gens. Those 5 gen are expected to be done across your team. So just based off objective, your heavily enforced to play as a team. You can try hide till very end but you get reduced score for escaping as 1 survivor.
SWFs extremely tough at high level? Just like real life, people who know each other and work together will do better than people who don't. SWFs are deprioritising the main Survivor bonus, and changing the game to where Killer's can use their altruism against them. Generally speaking this down grade doesn't give enough of a trade off for the benefits it brings, but the whole dynamic of the game is different because unlike at DBD base... the Survivors now actually ARE a team trying to get everyone out alive, and strong teamwork should and usually does prevail.... but a bad mistake and it can all go badly wrong very quickly. High level teams don't tend to and can't be forced to make the bad mistake the killer needs, hence the disparity.
soloq does not want to make mistakes. they're just forced into poor efficiency/bad plays due to lack of information. SWF will not make mistakes because they have correct information to always make the best play at any given moment therefore SWF only mistake is poor looping/Chase.
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Sigh. I really wanted to hope for BHVR bringing improvements to solo queue experience (IMHO mainly MMR needs changes) so that it's fun again without having to look for people to play with.
After reading this I want to go looking for a SWF right away.
this game is not a true 4 vs 1 unless you're in a SWF
Actually I had a very similar thought just yesterday when I was thinking about why the MMR is such a massive failure for solo survivor, and I was wondering whether the problem is that it judges me vs killer when my survival depends to a large extent on my three teammates unless I want to play extremely selfish (which I don't want to). To really be able to lift myself from low MMR in solo queue and have a decent experience (= escape more than once every 5-8 hours of play) it would have to judge me against my teammates rather than against the killer.
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I really enjoyed this write-up.
The part that stood out to me was where you mentioned that the Killer’s goal is to cause as much suffering as possible. I agree with that. I love to play in a way that causes as much horror as possible. I am fine if all of the Survivors escape, in fact I sometimes really don’t like killing/eliminating them. As Killer I will sometimes miss a hit on purpose hoping that I am creating more suspense for the Survivor. When the EGC happens I don’t camp the last hook, I will instead go and search for other Survivors and give them a chance to save the hooked Survivor. I do this to increase the amount of adrenaline the Survivor players must be feeling.
For me as Killer, it’s all about the suspense and carnage. I don’t care as much about the kills so much as I care about the ripping and terrorizing. It sounds so gruesome I know but I truly believe it makes for a game filled with intense suspense which I believe translates into a more fun game.
I play a ton of Survivor but Killer is truly where my heart is at. I love love love to give the Survivors a scary movie experience of near misses, jump-scares, and havoc. Often times even when they escape it still feels like a great match as long as I get a large amount of interaction with the Survivors. Obviously I play mainly for the faux roleplaying aspect. I really don’t play to make the other real people on the other side of the screen miserable. Instead my main motivation is to create a heart pounding experience. The catch is that the Killer can’t do that unless they’re actually a real threat.
Anyways, long story short the matches truly are what you make of them and how you frame them in your mind going into the match. They can be as fun as you let them, or vice-versa as miserable as you let them make you. I find that playing solely for kills and escapes takes away from all of the thematic material that is provided that lets you create your own story as you play.
Thanks for this conversation provoking topic. It was nice to discuss this aspect of the game 😊
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That is pretty much my point though friend. The survivors have a shared objective, which if completed gets them out of the trial... however just because the trial asks you to solve the same problem, and the most efficient way of doing that is to work together, doesn't mean you're necessarily allies.
If I take a good Saw V (I think) trap as an inspiration for an example, if there are 6 of us in a room, and the trial states we have to fill are container with 8 pints of blood to escape, we can of course all give a pint and a third each to escape, all of us would survive... but you having to slice a saw blade into your hand to do it is a different bag... Rather than maiming everyone, and equal option is to kill the one person in the group noone likes, and give all their blood, we still escape.
Everyone in that scenario has a different plan for how they would want to face that trial. Maybe 1 person refuses to do it outright and threatens violence... but if not, most people would probably take the even share solution... but there is always the chance that someone doesn't actually commit, hoping someone else takes up the slack for them... you can't trust everyone to play the game honourably... and you have yourself effectively a prisoners dilemma. You have to trust everyone else will play with the same mindset as you, and there is no guarantee they will... so do you break the rules first to preempt them doing it first?
What form does this take in DBD? DBD has hatch, DBD has perks to hide with. There is nothing stopping you from leading the killer to allies on gens to get away themselves... just because you wouldn't, doesnt mean people don't do it. This might sound unreasonable, but a more common scenario is if a player dies early and you're at 4 gens. You're in trouble... but if you don't get found and stay healthy, you can possibly still survive. Do you try for gens to get everyone out? Or do you focus on keeping yourself alive?
Regardless, I've seen players in SoloQ where I genuinely didn't understand how the hell they made such a bad mistake that screwed me up so badly... but with this new way of thinking... it's possible it was entirely deliberate. Just today I was left to die on hook totally uncontested against Twins... with 3 gens to go and 1 player dead. This seems like hanging me out to dry, which it is, but when you look at it as that was likely that players best option to remain undetected and get out alive, and acknowledging the pragmatism removes the annoyance.
I would still try to save my teammates at all times personally... but its suprising how accepting that their actual goal is to try to escape alive themselves, and not to expect help actually removes a lot of animonsity.
Thanks! Was a lot of fun, and I feel your mindset is the real place where this game has fun.
You sound like a blast to play against!
I try to play largely similarly, lots of chases, builds that are a little out there and unexpected to catch people off guard.
I don't like to single out a player or try to gun them out of the game, I'll almost always wait until I'm 6 hooks in before I sacrifice, and I'll usuually give everyone one freebie where I won't go mean. I'll accept one flashlight save, or 1 instance of a death hook survivor tripping up under my feet, or 1 instance of saboing or unhookimg under my nose... but once your ticket is spent, there is no mercy for any further infractions. 😁
More often than not once I've gotten all my hooks, I'll let 1, sometimes 2 survivors go.... the kill count doesn't mean anything to me next to just feeling like I put in a good and exciting killer performance. 😁🤘
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Regardless, I've seen players in SoloQ where I genuinely didn't understand how the hell they made such a bad mistake that screwed me up so badly... but with this new way of thinking... it's possible it was entirely deliberate. Just today I was left to die on hook totally uncontested against Twins... with 3 gens to go and 1 player dead. This seems like hanging me out to dry, which it is, but when you look at it as that was likely that players best option to remain undetected and get out alive, and acknowledging the pragmatism removes the annoyance.
you were left to die on hook because you did not have kindred. the team disorganized enough to send no players to unhook you. If a killer has camping tendencies then a survivor team might purposely leave you on hook till end of second stage. the other possibilities is your mmr being low enough that there is skill issue with saving other survivors. Some of it could be derived from killer pressuring entire team such as 1 person slugged, 2 people being chased and 1 person doing a gen at far end of the map.
As for your analogy, i do not see link in analogy towards dbd game. The dev somewhat made sure that playing selfish is as unrewarding as possible because leaving your teammates to die makes it difficult to escape. Funny enough, you can make builds such as Wake up+Sole survivor+Left behind with a key to increase escape chances in end game however i doubt this is how the majority of survivor players initially play the game.
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I guarantee... the instances I'm talking about were not because of a lack of information 😁
It's not that unrewarding. 2500 points for escaping through hatch, and 7000 points for surviving the trial... that's hardly chicken scratch. 😏
I am well aware of how teamwork is the most effective means of escape. My point is, your objective is to survive. If your team is winning, then your best move is play with the team... but if your team is losing your best bet is to let them die and try for the 1vs1.
Now I think of it, I believe it was Hens made a streak like this once, where he tried to ensure he survived every game, and he was able to get quite a long streak going by following this mentality. Clairvoyance was his ace perk whenever the game went south.
The point I'm trying to get across is, the point of survivor is to survive. Your chances of survival are high in a SWF working together... but if you're SoloQ a more selfish playstyle tends to be the one that gets to play for hatch if your team buckles... and when you accept that, a lot of things make more sense in this game. 😁
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While I do genuinely get where you're coming from, I think a lot of your position is built upon the assumption that anything Behaviour does is intentional or well considered, rather than them chaotically laying the tracks for a train already in motion. I genuinely believe that Dead By Daylight was never intended to last anywhere near this long, a coherent design strategy has never really been a thing, and that inferring a deeper meaning to the game mechanics isn't as close to reliable as it would be for any other game.
The point system, for example, might be designed to push you towards a certain style of play, might hint towards a wider objective. It is also equally possible that someone may have sketched the basic premise for it on a napkin at lunchtime and then gave it no further thought in the proceeding years.
The Key Features line, "Survive Together.. Or Not," I am going to guess, has been in the description from day one. As far as I understand it, not even looping was an intended thing back then. It was about hiding more, interacting with each other outside of gens less. As the game has moved on, teamwork has become almost completely mandated and more selfish play-styles are generally awarded with a team wipe. The game has evolved far beyond its original premise, whether Behaviour cares to acknowledge that or not.
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Hehehehe, this is a fair point. I think you're dead right, the game has evolved primarily to fit the market, and the life cycle and history of DBD development is a rather checkered past to say the least... :D
It's changed a lot from it's original concept, however BHVR have also been known to quite stubborn at times... despite the games success and then having a huge wave of voices shouting back at them, they've held fast on some things that didn't make a lot of sense to hold fast on... and I think that the above principle has always been lingering in the background... I think it's a tenet of the game that has continued to play quite a role in BHVR's decision making.
For example, that AMA comment about survivors being lone wolves was extremely poorly received, and that is because everyone (including me) looks at this game as 4 survivors vs. 1 killer... ofc we don't work together as well, because we don't have comparable information, and if we did, we would. As a result, that comment is baffling and frustrating... but when you reframe it with this game being 4 survivors each trying to survive vs. 1 killer... it now isn't such an unreasonable thing to say.
The medkit, self care and CoH healing nerfs seems to push more towards a team dynamic, as healing yourself is harder to do, so that has evidence for a more team dynamic, which contradicts my point. However if you have strong self healing, it makes working together as a team easier as well... you can heal yourself while your teammates work together on gens. This in turn means there is no requirement or opportunity to play selfishly or betray anyone if everyone can easily care for themselves while working as a team. A lot of survivors got really upset with these changes and spouted "catering to killers", the 60% kill rate for killers also wasn't received too well in the same vein... however if you frame those things with this betrayal idea in mind... these changes again do make a little more sense.
Now ofc, we are the customers, and if enough of us pull in one direction, BHVR would be foolish not to react to it.... but I am starting to think as I look through changes BHVR makes, this might well be one of the core tenets of their design philosophy...
Though there is ofc the possibility I'm seeing patterns where there are none, and it's all tinfoil hat stuff... but I've had fun thinking about it 😁
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To quote Linus Torvalds: "If it's a bug that people rely on, it's not a bug, it's a feature."
I get that the developers had a more survival horror vision for the game when they first launched it. It seems like they still view it that way to an extent. But that's just not how a lot of players approach the survivor role. It's not how many players *want* to approach the role either.
Your gameplay should matter. I think the genre needs to understand that if it wants to grow. You can't consign a role to loser status by design in a PVP game. And right now the massive issue with solo survivor is that your gameplay often doesn't matter at all. You could often do just as well hiding in a locker all game vs actually trying, because two of your teammates are usually so bad that the game isn't winnable. That's not a recipe for fun for many people.
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This is a great mindset to have while playing. I think also trying to blame the developers for players behavior is wrong. Each player will bring their style of play to the game. I think you brought that thought out quite well. This can be frustrating if you get a player with a different mindset than your own, but taking away options from players is also not the way to go. It would make the game that gives freedom of choice limitations. Changing how you let it affect you I think is the best option.
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