draft
Comments
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I (nearly) never have this problem as Killer
Never? Really? Have you not played after Boil Over buff?
Or you mean recently?
It's not hard to create as SWF on some maps. I had it happen on The Game few times. Really annoying, I lost most of those games, because survivors noticed and always run into that corner. Really annoying.
I bet accurance would increase, if Unbreakable was basekit, simply because it nerfs only counterplay. There would be nothing killer can do about it, which doesn't sound good to me.I don't see why we would need to remove Shift preventing healing though.
If you had feature to give up after X amount of time, then holding shift would make it impossible for other survivors to prevent it.
I don't think it would affect more than 2% of matches total in changing the result
That doesn't mean not affecting the gameplay. If feature changes whole meta and playstyles, then it affects normal gameplay. Basekit unbreakable would make this 100%. I think you underestimate how much slugging would decrease on value, but mostly it would make survivors to force those situations.
It wouldn't be hard to create lose lose situations for the killer.So unless you want to nerf / remove all possible situations survivors are able to create, where this could be abused, there is no way I would ever want to see this in DBD.
Give up feature would be way better for both sides, without actually affecting gameplay for anyone.
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Not having a lack of hook problem - The only time during the Boil Over buff it was a problem was when 4 people brought it and map offered RPD when we had a third story Library (without the guaranteed hooks). Even when that was at its peak, it wouldn't happen more than 1 in 10 of my Killer games. Same with Eyrie, once they added the fixed hooks (2 up top for Eyrie) the problem was deleted. On most maps these days you can get 2-3 hooks from a corner. That means you basically have a 50-50 of not having enough hooks if and only if they all comp corner on that same corner. Like I said, I plan out my final hook location, and take a further hook if it would prevent a gate/corner hook from being usable.
I don't know what 'Accurance' is.
Remove heal prevention - The Killer can still hook them though, so I don't understand the issue. Even if someone is healing the Survivor on the ground, that doesn't mean the person isn't getting BMed, and could open up more abuse for working with Killer. Plus I can't tell you how many times my foolish soloq teammates try to run across the map to heal me when I clearly Plot Twisted. This would deny that perk usage as well, so this change would be far more bad than good.
Affect normal gameplay - I still don't think it would impact the majority of games (>95%). It does far more good than harm, and we could even do something like Mangled/Broken/Exhausted (any individually, or multiple in combination) for X duration (or different durations if multiple) after a self-pickup. That way it both informs the Killer, and also has a cost to further incentivize Altruism. I hesitate to put Hindered on that list, but maybe 10% for 10s would be fine. (Still allowing for Fast Vaults, but enough to lose in most loops.)
I fully support both sides having a surrender option after say 10-15 minutes (WIP estimate, with arguable earlier conditions such as a Kill at 4+ gens for Survivors, or no gen progression for Killer after 3-5 minutes, to prevent cheaters holding people hostage from the onset).0 -
Nah you absolutely should be required to use a perk for self pick up.
Slugging is already a highly risky strategy for the killer as it is. You possibly lose out an entire hook state and gain nothing for it. Don't need to make it weaker than it is.
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Remove heal prevention - The Killer can still hook them though
this has nothing to do with killer, that's simply so you wouldn't be able to "force" 1 minute slugging and ignore your teammates effort. For plot twist, it should be changes so your recovering (holding M1) has priority over others (kinda like holding shift now, but limited without Plot twist).
Plus I can't tell you how many times my foolish soloq teammates try to run across the map to heal me when I clearly Plot Twisted.
Let's be honest, showing your teammates perks should be main priority for DBD in my opinion. I don't think any other thing would help soloQ more right now.
You don't even need to show it in lobby. You can already see your perks when you press ESC, which I don't really know why, but just replace it with 3 builds (your teammates). So at start of the game, I can quickly check it. This wouldn't allow lobby dodging, but still help a lot.
It does far more good than harm
Not really. It would simply replace one annoying thing killer can do with annoying thing survivors can do. How is that better?
Also about why it would increase tunneling a lot, which I don't think is good thing.
Right now, if I get into tunneling situation made by survivors (body blocking, healing under hook, rescuer hiding etc.) I always go for down, but I prefer slugging over hooking again, so that survivor has chance to play more.
Do you think anyone is going to care, when that survivor has unbreakable? Your expectation is killer will go back and hook, but I wouldn't want to hook that survivor. If I am forced to hook, why wouldn't I do it asap and just "tunnel" him.
This feature would do a lot of harm, you just don't see it.Well, I don't see almost any good it would do…. Everything good it could make, can be achieved with give up feature I mentioned. That can create a lot of good for players with little to no harm.
Preventing basekit unbreakable from abusing would need tons of nerfs. which I don't think players want and I bet we would see tons of crying for tunneling. Even more than now, which is hard to do.
having a surrender option after say 10-15 minutes
No, that's terrible idea.
There should be strict definitions of when you can use it. Just time can basically deny playing for other side, which is not good. There should be time for people to finish achievements / challenges in any game.Definitions should be combination of exact situation and time. So 1 minute slugging for example. Both sides have option to prevent it.
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The problem with removing heal prevention is that both versions have someone griefing their team as the consequence. The benefit of a bleedout surrender grief is that the person quits and you get a bot. The benefit of a no heal grief is you can force someone to AFK in the match and not meaningfully participate… I don't think the no heal option is as beneficial.
Show perks on Escape menu - Agreed. And can we also show the Killer's perks and add-ons once dead in soloq. There is no reason to hide the perks against someone that isn't teamed with anyone else.
More good than harm - I'm not sure what annoying thing Survivors can do you are talking about here. If you were talking about a surrender, that still yields a bot. That's better than someone who Kobe's to end the match or AFKs or only opens chests while walking the rest of the match.
As far as tunneling, I disagree that it would increase by a lot. It would increase from 20% to 25% tops, or a multiplicative 25% increase. I would need to see that increase by a multiplicative 50 or 100% to cross the line into 'a lot' territory. Slugging pressure is unsecured in both versions, with or without basekit UB, but with basekit it makes the match more predictable. The Killer knows they will get up in a fixed timeframe, instead of 16s (Exponential) or 26s (Unbreakable) or 32s (Soul Guard) or never.
I also disagree that it would necessitate massive nerfs to implement, as it already has a minimal impact on the majority of matches except as a tool to grief.
Surrender unlocked at 10-15m being a bad idea - I don't see how this would be the case. Even if I have excellent pressure on the Survivors such that they only have 1 person working on gens, that still takes 90*5s, or 7.5 minutes, and 9 minutes if I use Pain Res. By 10 minutes, the Survivors should know if the match is a lost cause and not worth continuing, or the Killer is just getting bullied or held hostage by stealthing Survs or cheaters. I gave 15m as an alternative, because it is fair to say some Killers might have built in slowdown to take longer than this theoretical 9 minute maximum, or Survivors reasonably hiding against a Plague/Oni/Myers/etc. in power form.
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Slugging pressure is unsecured in both versions, with or without basekit UB, but with basekit it makes the match more predictable.
It's simple, right now slugging is simply alternative to tunneling. Right now both gives pressure, slugging already gives less pressure than tunneling, but I just think it is better for survivors. That's why I do it.
If you nerf slugging with basekit unbreakable, I know that pressure from that action will be lower and I will be forced to return anyway. So there is not reason to wait with hooking.
Another issue is DS (if they actually buff it). Even when I know from their actions they have it, I don't have an option to slug them and go back later, becasuse DS timer is longer than your basekit unbreakable. So best play would be just pick them up, eat the DS and hard tunnel them.
At what world is slugging considered worse than tunneling? Slugging gives me an alternative what to do, if you nerf it and I get into position of tunneling, why the hell would I bother with slugging?
it would necessitate massive nerfs to implement
There are things where only asnwer is slugging, if you nerf slugging, all those things should get nerfed. With basekit unbreakable, it would be very easy to get killer into lose lose situation, which is not good.
I don't see how this would be the case.
because it promotes hiding and that is annoying
Also there are missions to get kills / escapes, escape through hatch etc. all those could be denied in many games. I don't consider 10/15 minutes to be that long.
I just think using only time limit is really lazy approach, which could backfire.
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Basekit UB buffs tunneling - Slugging would remain an alternative, but the Killer has a more normal range of expected stand up times from now. I can still get plenty done in 45s and make my way back to re-down/hook someone if needed. There is no reason to wait for a tunneling Killer in hooking them currently, so this isn't a meaningful point. Even with DS, I know I'm safe as long as I tunnel slugged them more than 5s after their basekit BT ran out, and return before they can pick themselves up. I can even wait 5-10 extra seconds if I wasn't sure on the timing, hovering over their corpse, and can just re-down them if they pick themselves up. If this makes Soul Guard meta, then good, we will see less Adrens and DHs, and it is easy to counter.
Nerfs to counterbalance basekit UB - You mention "There are things where only asnwer is slugging, if you nerf slugging, all those things should get nerfed.", but don't list a single one. We've already know we disagree, but this just sounds like the reasoning is 'cuz I said so'. Can you list any of this extensive list of actions that can't be dealt with within 45s (or my preferred 30 to 95%, 60 total to self-pickup)? The DS example was inaccurate, so I'm confused what other examples simply can't be solved by locking in the pressure with a hook.
10-15m Surrender resulting in hiding - So wait, people who we expect to lose are going to hide in order to surrender? Or is the claim they will hide to bore the opposition into surrendering. If it's the latter, we have rules against 'holding the game hostage' for that. If it's the former, wouldn't we want the timer shorter then? As far as tomes, a surrender can be tied to auto-completing the opponent's endgame tomes (as a kill/hook/hooks remaining or simply 100% completion).
As far as match duration, my normal (no basekit slowdown) matches only last about 10 minutes to reach endgame, and as long as 15 minutes if they had basekit slowdown. Any longer and the Killer is actively tormenting the players, or the Survivors are actively hiding to hold the game hostage. Looking at the forums, we have this thread where most people landed upon 15 minutes, so I'd be winning to entertain the notion that includes finishing gens and Survivors greeding for a 4-out, or finally having the last die/get hatch. This would be an individual quit, but are you going to quit if you have a reasonable chance of turning things around? I wouldn't quit as Killer if I had NWO/BW/NOED, and I wouldn't quit if I wanted a few more hook saves or heals for my tome (or to rescue my friend and die for them). Otherwise I would hard escape as Survivor, or realize I have no chance and clean up pallets/walls as Killer for extra BP. It saves people from the worst time of salt being rubbed in the wound lasting any longer than it needs to.
(Edit: forgot the hyperlink to the other thread for game length estimates)0 -
There is no reason to wait for a tunneling Killer in hooking them currently, so this isn't a meaningful point.
There is, because right now I am not forced to be tunneling killer in that situation. I am fully willing to let another survivor save them and recover, it gives me time and survivor gets chance to play. Win win
If I will have to return, I have no reason to wait and just tunnel them.
but don't list a single one
I have talked about this point in multiple comments already, do I really have repeat myself?
- if survivor gets downed under pallet (pointing) and I know there are background players, I am not picking them up.
- Survivors dying in corners → I am not picking them up
- survivor running into basement → probably Wicked → I am not picking them up
- survivors under pallet with Power struggle
- sabo squads
So wait, people who we expect to lose are going to hide in order to surrender?
No, they will hide until killer surrenders, which is luckily not an option now, so it is unlikely to happen.
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Tunneling - Perhaps I'm not understanding your point. Right now, someone has to pick up, so are Killers actively camping the slugged body waiting to chase someone else in order to not tunnel? That's what it sounds like from my read. You currently have to return in about 30s because someone will pick them up otherwise, and this would merely extend that to 45s instead. Adding an extra 50% time to respond gives me more time to handle other issues and return in time.
Repeat points - When they have already been refuted, yeah they aren't in the list anymore.
- Background Player - Fair this perk should probably be shifted to speed boost after the pickup completes.
- Corners - There are 2-3 hooks available in the vast majority of maps from normal corners. Only edge case scenarios like Temple of Purgation with basement in shack are the outliers that can be used for this point, but they are rare even in comparison to slugging in general.
- Wicked - Why not take the free hook nonetheless? It forces them to use their perk, and IIRC someone told me they don't use Wicked because it doesn't grant basekit BT, so that is a free 2nd free hook after that.
- Power Struggle - It is only a threat in concert with Background Player/hovering Survivors. If you pick up instantly it denies PS, and even then it often is better to kill the threat of the pallet and pick up regardless. Its hilarious how many people think you won't just pick up and get a free hook (and sometimes a late pallet throw) as a result.
- Sabo - Only relevant in concert with corners. There are so many hooks in modern maps, that I have sabo'd 3 different hooks the Killer was heading towards and they still were able to hook. With corners you can sabo the 2-3 hooks reachable, and that is the only time it can be a threat.
Hide for Killer to surrender - I just explained in the previous post that that is holding the game hostage and reportable/bannable. "If it's the latter, we have rules against 'holding the game hostage' for that."
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Perhaps I'm not understanding your point. Right now, someone has to pick up, so are Killers actively camping the slugged body waiting to chase someone else in order to not tunnel?
Ok, my bad. I will try to make it clear.
Right now, when for whatever reason I manage to down just unhooked survivor, I would like to slug them. Right now it gives me enough pressure and it gives that survivor chance to keep playing the game. I think that seems reasonable, right?
Issue is with all your explanations of this feature, you always expect killer to return back to hook that survivor, right? Saying 45 seconds is enough time to return, but that doesn't really work, when I am not planning to ever go back there. I want another survivor to leave gen and go help slugged survivor.
This simply doesn't work, when everyone knows that survivor will get picked up no matter what, that's basically half the pressure it gives me. Unless that survivor is dead hook, why would I ever leave the gen, when someone is slugged (as survivor)?
So I could try to slug for a hit on other survivor, then go back and hook that unhooked survivor again, but I don't want to do that. With your feature I am forced to do that. Issue is when I have to do it, there is no reason to wait for anything.
When everyone has unbreakable, the correct thing is to pick and hook a survivor whenever you can. Issue is you don't always have that option.
That can be for several reasons. In end game, if you want comeback, then basic hooking is not an option. You simply have to go for mass slugging. Or just hook and camp to take that 1 kill, which seems boring to me.
So summary:
Right now I am trying to get out of my way to not tunnel, which is done by slugging. Your feature would make me stop caring at all.This is exactly same outcome what 3-gen feature did. You are limiting killers options and most survivors don't like the results, then just call for more nerfs...
Why not take the free hook nonetheless? It forces them to use their perk
Because it gives me almost 0 pressure. Noone is needed to save that survivor, if I hook them. You see the issue? Same as CoH etc.
When I slug them, either someone else have to go into basement to pick them up, which is more pressure than hooking them, or they have to use unbreakable → forces them to use their perk.If I hook them, only correct play would be to stay around and not let them escape basement → go for hard tunnel.
Its hilarious how many people think you won't just pick up and get a free hook (and sometimes a late pallet throw) as a result.
You have never played Twins against Power struggle, have you? That's fun experience…
It is only a threat in concert with Background Player/hovering Survivors
Are you soloQ player only? Because this is very easy to get for SWF…
Only relevant in concert with corners.
Indoor maps work. Also stacking those Oak offerings work.
I just explained in the previous post that that is holding the game hostage and reportable/bannable
That is lot of work (for me), I will rather be against any feature that promotes those actions. It's highly unlikely they would be banned anyway.
Feature that would lead to banning people, is not good feature.
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Slugging comparisons - For both versions if someone wants to secure pressure, they have to hook. For both versions, someone picking up is almost always more efficient gameplay, and can put the Killer at risk for a reverse snowball. For downing an unhooked Survivor, it still results in the person playing the game, it just doesn't require an altruistic pickup. The issue I'm not understanding is why a Killer would tunnel only to then go 'oopsie-doopsie I didn't mean it'. If I'm going back to hook, I can chase the rescuer instead. Where is the scenario where I need to slug someone that I don't plan on hooking (unless I'm just not planning on killing anyone)?
I view pressure in two camps, secured and unsecured. Anything short of a hook is unsecured. Injuries are unsecured, slugging is unsecured, gen kicks are unsecured, and hooks/basekit kill methods are the only way to secure that pressure to ensure a response is required. I can still provide 45s of pressure on a Survivor by slugging them, and their team can shorten that timer if they pick them up. I don't require a hook in this theoretical.Currently people aren't leaving gens to pick people up until well later in the recovery, because it seems like the Killer is hovering around them. If everyone has unbreakable the best option is to hook people, but only within the 45s timer if you suspect selfish gameplay. That is easily accomplished on near every Killer unless I decided to teleport cross map as Freddy.
As far as endgame is concerned, if I didn't bring an endgame perk like Blood Warden, I consider all gens completing a loss, but that's just me. If I brought all perks to deal with early/mid-game, then I should win before mid-game ends. If I brought Blood Warden, then that's my win condition in endgame. Not only that, but people will predominantly crawl in endgame instead of recover, so it still helps to slug in mass during endgame even with basekit UB.As far as the anti-3 gen feature, I haven't triggered it once when I wasn't playing overly campy in my 3-gen. I haven't had a single game's outcome changed, or my playstyle altered, as a result of it. From people complaining about it, they included recordings of their gameplay that showed them playing gen defense, or camping 3-gens, or kicking without a gen perk when they had a Survivor on screen. That is exactly the type of behavior that was meant to be curtailed, and the people refused to learn and adjust their playstyle before complaining about it.
Not take the free hook or two, it gives almost no pressure - No one is needed to save the Survivor, but they still are 1/3rd the way to their death. That's plenty of pressure for me. So no, I don't see the issue with Wicked or Deliverance. Plus slugging them still provides 45s of pressure on 1 Survivor at the minimum. I would agree that slugging wouldn't be worth it in basement because of the time to walk in and out, but not hooking someone into a Wicked/Deliv hop off hook.
Never play Twins - Naw in general I like everyone in the match to have fun. I don't even have fun playing Twins, so why would I play a Killer just to annoy 4 other people? I can do that by playing Blight or Wesker and have fun myself at the same time. I do play them for tomes and dailies, but even then I can just down with Charlotte against the singular PS player.
Pickups not a threat/only play soloq? - I'm about 50% Killer, 40% soloq, 10% (uncoordinated) SWF. Last stats I recall soloq was 60% minimum, and 4-man SWF was 10% maximum. Plus that requires the SWF to be coordinated, which is also a tall order. This not only requires them to be coordinated, it also requires them not to pump gens instead. If they are hovering around me like flies, they gave me a free win from 33% gen slowdown (2 on gens, 1 in chase, 1 following at their best case times).Corners/Indoor maps too - Indoor maps have plenty of hooks. That 3 sabo example I gave was on RPD. There is the hook in main, up the stairs, in the side hallway on the east side, in the lobby on the west side, in the hallway on the west side. That map has way too many hooks as is (for sabo to be a playstyle). The worst case scenario is probably the front gate on the east side where the gen is, and even then you have the alley hook and the hook that spawns at the stairwell (either downstairs or upstairs), so still 2 minimum hooks. Midwich also got fixed and has 3 hooks available from the bathroom. I'm not sure which indoor map is a problem for an aware Killer player. As far as Oaks, there still is a minimum hook count, so that (IME) still has 2 hooks from every corner. That means I had to kill 2 players already from them comp cornering in that same corner, and now when I try to kill the third it finally becomes a problem.
Hold Hostage and reporting - That's fair that it is too cumbersome to report for some people. I know when someone is petty enough blatantly cheat or hold the game hostage or do anything else clearly uncool (and report worthy), that I get annoyed enough to start up the recording and prep the report. Also I don't think this would lead to more instances of people doing this then they already do. I know when I've had the free time against Nurses tunnel at 5 gens that I've hid as long as possible, while still touching gens to not technically count as holding the game hostage. Essentially this doesn't exacerbate or create a new problem that doesn't already exist. I don't get this happening to me as Killer (only the blatant cheaters), because I don't act like a sweatlord to people.0 -
The issue I'm not understanding is why a Killer would tunnel only to then go 'oopsie-doopsie I didn't mean it
- unhooked survivor bodyblocking me
- second survivor is hiding
- unhooked survivor started working on gen close to me
- healing under hook when I didn't find anyone else
- second survivor Sprint burst away leaving injured survivor behind
I think you get the point. There is lot of situations, which would be considered tunneling, but are made by survivors, who simply put the killer into that position.
if someone wants to secure pressure, they have to hook
Not really, as long it wastes time of multiple survivors, it gives me pressure. I don't need to hook.
I can still provide 45s of pressure on a Survivor by slugging them
45 seconds of one survivor is worse in my book than making another survivor leaving gen to help.
45 seconds of one survivor is not enough for me to care. I will just hook them whenever I can.
I don't know about you, but limiting options like this for the killer is simply boring.
I consider all gens completing a loss, but that's just me.
That's quitter talk… Definetly an easier approach. I would like to have an option to try get comeback
So no, I don't see the issue with Wicked or Deliverance.
That tells me quite a lot about this conversation. Those two perks are devastating for the killer, because it just removed any pressure.
That is exactly the type of behavior that was meant to be curtailed, and the people refused to learn and adjust their playstyle before complaining about it.
We relearned, just use pop/pain res and nothing else. What an amazing change…
I loved to use eruption/jolt. 3-gen feature made it trash. I can block gen way before 3-gen. So name should be changed at least…
Essentially this doesn't exacerbate or create a new problem that doesn't already exist
Yeah, but it gives player a new reason to do it. It would be quite good way how to win, when you have already lost as survivors. Just hide for few minutes and how killer is not petty enough to deal with it.
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Half-tunnel - I see the examples now. Generally I would still consider that enough pressure to be applied, especially since I will be in chase with the next Survivor within seconds. Understandable if you don't like the level of pressure '-45 gen seconds' would provide.
Secure pressure with a hook+Wicked/Deliv - I understand that it might provide pressure, but that's why I call it unsecured. I can't know if they are on comms, or have UB, or have Soul Guard when I brought Devour, or are in range of Exponential. I can hedge my bets on a hook state counting against their total, even if I can't rely on someone else to rescue (from Deliv/Wicked/Luck Offerings+Perks). That's what makes a hook 'secured'. It provides permanent irreparable damage. As far as self-unhooks, they are only an impediment if I was reliant on that hook for pressure. I rarely need the pressure from the hook so much beyond early game. Once we fall into the rhythm of mid-game, I feel secure with the hook stage counting against their max.
45s of pressure - I view things in both real time seconds, and gen seconds. Both sides fight against the clock, which is being wound by the opposition. If I can prevent 45 gen seconds with 10 or fewer of my own, then I probably was in the green net positive, give a rough 4-1 ratio for Survivor against Killer. Even if I hit someone healing under hook and leave them slugged, I denied 45s of gen time (under a theoretical basekit UB).
Gens pop = I lose - It more is like I view gradients of winning (with hatch not counting). Like if you played a total war game where they say 'Pyrrhic Victory/Close Victory/Decisive Victory/Heroic Victory'. Anything past gens popping is a Pyrrhic Victory at best. If I had to kill someone before 2 hooks each, Close Victory at best. If I killed everyone with 2 hooks each before my first kill, then it was a Decisive Victory. If I get all kills by Devour Hope Mori's, I get a Heroic Victory. I aim for the best since I have to make my own fun in the game, as the fun doesn't come naturally.3-gen - Yeah Surge and Eruption are certainly unfortunately impacted disproportionately by the change. I would want those to have something like only counting as a 'half-event' or something.
New reason to be jerks - Fair enough.0 -
especially since I will be in chase with the next Survivor within seconds. Understandable if you don't like the level of pressure '-45 gen seconds' would provide.
That's still once less survivor involved in that, who can keep working on gen without thinking.
It provides permanent irreparable damage.
I care more about how much time that action gives me rather than simply hooks. Unless it is early game, first hook means nothing.
I denied 45s of gen time (under a theoretical basekit UB).
Which is simply lower than current version. 45 seconds of slugging + 45 seconds of gen time (because survivor doesn't have to leave).
Even if combined time of two survivors is lower, it's simply better. I have had this conversation multiple times about CoH (selfhealing in general) and this is exactly same. Multiple survivors included is always better for the killer. 45 seconds of one survivor is not that much.
I probably was in the green net positive
Still worse and difference between slugging and tunneling would become higher. So why handicap myself so much just to spare survivor?
Gens pop = I lose - It more is like I view gradients of winning (with hatch not counting)
I prefer Otz's approach. Game doesn't end until survivors leave. Your feature would make this kinda impossible. There is simply no way to get comeback without slugging.
I would want those to have something like only counting as a 'half-event' or something.
I would just make it count only kicks, or make it work only when there is 1 gen left (actually 3-gen feature).
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Not bringing someone off a gen - This is why I try to use 'gen seconds'. If I block 45 gen seconds from a slug, that is different from someone running 6s (with Sprint Burst which will recover), spending 13s picking them up, then they both hop on the gen 7.5s away (same or opposite directions). That prevented 53 gen seconds, and pressured 26.5 real time seconds. This would only provide a 15% reduction on gen slowdown compared to incorporating a 45s self-pickup. So it isn't as simple as a 2 Survivor pressure/1 Survivor pressure.
First hook outside of early game gives nothing - The first hook can be anyone's last hook (as in death), soloq experience tells me that lol. It also can still provide the need for an unhook which forces a response. Slugging doesn't force the same level of response, as people often can let someone sit if they see the Killer hovering. A hook provides that pressure to trade even if the Killer is hovering, even on first hook (outside of endgame). So I would agree if you said only endgame, but not including mid-game.
Multiple Survivors math (See first paragraph, short version is 15% reduction, not 50% as would be immediately thought)
10 Killer seconds denying 45 Surv seconds still less effective than tunneling - I suppose I'm just not seeing the case to leave the Survivor slugged instead of simply tunnel hooking them immediately in either situation for the most part. I figure the Killer would commit to tunnel in both cases because otherwise it was a waste of time to down them at all for the most part.
Pyrrhic → Heroic victory for me, you prefer Otz's gate escape - I mean to each their own. I was just saying how I view my match outcomes for how well I did in them. I know I could do better (win before gens pop/8 hook before a kill) or could get luckier (Devour not cleansed), and that is what I aim for to have fun.
3-gen - The problem with only working at 3 gens, is I've had H-shaped maps have 5 gens fairly common. I can '3-gen' with more than 3-gens, so it is fixing the edge cases as well. I would agree for Eruption to simply not count at all (since the kick to apply it is already counted so it would be like Pop), but not including Surge/PR to any degree would be a massive mistake. While I think there are misfires with the current system, its net better than what we had before. To be fair I usually only bring 1 regression perk on Ghosty (PR) or use none with the Driver's License (20%+15s blocked), and I've consistently played (and mostly won) without reaching 8 events on a single gen.
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