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Comments
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A surrender button is a better option than giving everyone free unbreakable + soulguard
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Why do you affirm it is better to surrender than give survivors some way to play the game? This idea has merit, but I would make one shift. This ability would ONLY activate when there are only two survivors remaining. That solves the main problem ( slugging for the 4K). I’ve already made a post asserting how broken EndGame is and how that needs to change. But slugging a guy out is just misery for anyone. Why should I give up? Instead, for the killer to either hook me and move on or risk me getting back up and in the game. So if the killer slugs for one minute AFTER the Survivor has maxed out recovery, they can get up. I play killer. When I kill the third survivor, the fourth only escapes a literal (I keep my stats) 25% of the time.
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They already tested nearly these exact changes you are proposing on a PTB a long time ago as you said and it was a complete disaster. I know you feel yours is different but it's not.
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The disaster with that PTB was the Mori changes associated with basekit UB. Killers were speedrunning a 4 slug withing the 45s UB timer as it would hard end the match early with a Mori on the final downed Surv. They also deleted Moris from all other sources (Offerings/Devour Hope), and didn't even give the Killer the option to 'Murder or Mercy' to give hatch or Mori them. So people didn't like not being able to Mori when they wanted to.
The basekit UB had little to no complaints that were mathematically sound. (Technically there was 1 Oni main that complained that he couldn't slug all 4 within a single power usage, but the power ends in 17.45s if you downed all 4 Survs from start to finish. That means that Oni had 28s to find and hook the first Surv before that first surv could pick themselves up. On average, you could chain hook every Surv [unless they all hid in the same corner, but then you could simply bleed them out and hit them like whack a mole, or hook them on the 3 hooks available from most map's corners and camp the last].)
If they did a Mori exclusive PTB, and a slower baskit UB exclusive PTB, then the Mori PTB would be lambasted again, and the UB PTB would be net neutral or positive.0 -
Totally disagree.
While the instant mori was an issue for what you listed, the base kit UB was absolutely a huge issue that was complained about. It was not received positively or even neutral for that matter. It was unanimously hated and viewed as something that would ruin DBD. If we had a solely UB PTB it would be extremely negative, that is not an exaggeration.
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Basekit unbreakable is too abusable regardless of how you put it
And basekit surrender is even worse because people will mess up matches
Slugging is necessary evil unless you make every killer ph like
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I don't know what you propose to fix slugging because it is an issue unfortunately, and I can't think of anything else that would solve the problem other than allowing a survivor to pick themselves back up after a certain amount of time. One person in the comments suggested being able to pick yourself up 60 seconds after you have fully recovered which sounds a bit more fair. Other than that there's no other way to fix slugging since you can't control the way the killer will choose to play. The other issue with the ptb other than the free unbreakable was the insta mori which was the bigger disaster, and that is not what i suggested about the mori either. I just suggested having the **option** to mori the last survivor, meaning you can also hook them or give them the hatch if you would like to.
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I don't even think slugging is a problem, it's no different from hooking, if anything it's actually better because you won't lose hook state and can freely move around
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You must be new to the game if you don't know that there's a bleed out timer that some killers choose to abuse instead of hooking people
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You have buckle up which is better BT because both will get endurance, and bleedout is 4 minutes which is far longer than hook timer
You can even take for the people for instant heal
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"I don't know what you propose to fix slugging because it is an issue unfortunately"
Elaborate why you think it's an issue? "Bleed out timers some killers abuse", once in what a couple hundred games? (and that's being generous) That's not an issue. I've got over 10k hours, I play way, way more than the average player, and I rarely ever see this happen.
"One person in the comments suggested being able to pick yourself up 60 seconds after you have fully recovered which sounds a bit more fair"
Saying this sounds a bit more "fair"..that would be absolutely broken. This would be abused to insane amounts. That would be the worst change this game has ever seen. Not exaggerating, like literally..and I've been around since release.
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i dont think you read my suggestion in the first place so i think trying to explain it is pointless but i'll just try to be kind and let you know that being on hook allows you to either leave the trial by sacrificing yourself or to wait until ur teammates save you so you can keep playing.. 4 man slugs without unbreakable or anything are simply just a waste of time u can do nothing about. u cant use ftp or buckle up on anyone if your whole team is on the ground, and not everyone runs those perks, so i dont get your point
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If you are specifically talking about 4 man slugs, I think finisher mori was pretty much what you were looking for because that'll do same as "sacrificing yourself" for everyone
And even then literal unbreakable exists and sometime soul guard can work too
You may also try using exponential
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you shouldn't have to sacrifice your perk slots to fix a bad game mechanic, that's obvious, especially if you wanna have fun and experiment with more perks. bhvr can fix slugging just like they fixed facecamping with the free self unhook when the killer stands there for too long. sacrificing yourself = getting yourself out of a bad match or dying to let the last survivor get the hatch if theres only 2 of u. it's obvious to me that free unbreakable with certain conditions is the best way to fix this boring mechanic that a lot of killers abuse. there should always be counterplay to things to actually keep the game fun
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To me, faster game ends with four sacrifice seems lot better because when all 4 survivors are slugged it should counts as win for killers
The only problem you have is killer didn't hook everyone, so it should be done automatically by game without killer interaction
I don't get why you think survivors should have another chance without perks for free
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how would it be bad for the game to actually allow people to play? it's very much fair to allow yourself to get up if the killer is just trying to waste your time. "once in a couple hundred games" is a huge exaggeration since when me and my friends play that happens every 4-5 matches. if you think it's fun to waste peoples time just to get a 4k in an online game i dont know what to tell you.
also the fact i said "fair" because im pretty sure someone would be slugging like that for a reason, whether theyre salty, having a bad day or simply just abusing the power they're given, i dont think someone who slugs often would like a change like that at all.
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at some point the game just ended after all 4 survivors were downed, the point isnt to have another chance, the issue is that there's nothing you can do and the killer decides if they wanna be normal or waste your time. like i mentioned, facecamping was an issue too and you couldn't do anything about it, especially if the killer had instadown. so yes i think there should always be something people can do to deal w not so very nice players :)
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Because it is giving arbitrary advantage that is hardly justified
If wasting time is the only problem you have, you should ask for instant sacrifice of everyone, so game balance stays same but problem will be fixed
But you are asking for basekit unbreakable that does work all the time, that's just a survivor buff without any real reasoning behind it
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If the game ends the moment everyone's downed every killer who's determined to win is just gonna slug though? I get why u would think its better but you should allow the survivors to be able to do something if the killer decides to ruin their time. "another chance perks" theres literally nothing you can do.
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But what is difference between now and then
If everyone is slugged, he is already winning, it's just a matter of wasting survivors time by refuses to hook or actually finish up the game by hooking everyone
I don't get why you think every killers would suddenly decide to slug survivors all, they are already doing that if it's possible
I'd rather stop killers from ruining time altogether, than adding a tools that just reduces strategy and is extremely abusable
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yes indeed, but they don't always hook you and in many circumstances you're one of the 2 people the killer will slug just to deny the other person the hatch. if the killer just resorts to slugging it's either a big mistake the survivors made or just the killer being annoying. i dont get how it's so abusable to be able to get yourself up, max 3 times considering the bleed out timer won't be getting removed, and on top of that you'll be wasting your own time if you go down intentionally. 60-84 seconds is enough time for the killer to come back and hook you if not focused on another survivor. i'll just keep comparing it to facecamping because it benefits me in this argument, so if you look at it like this:
does every killer facecamp? no, is there something survivors could do about face camping, maybe 3 man save but other than that no, especially if they got insta down. (so they implemented anti facecamp)
does every killer slug? no, is there something survivors can do to counter it unless they sacrifice their perk slots, no.
you could say unbreakable is a pretty common perk and people run it, but it's still a game flaw. killers cant be entirely blamed for wasting people's time since it's a valid game mechanic and that's on the developers. just bringing a perk to fix that is a bandaid fix and i wouldnt wanna do that.
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If it's for "slug for pressure" which is still happening at last two survivors remaining, it's hardly "wasting your time" or anything because this is just a normal gameplay loop that deserves to be preserved
Being unable to hook isn't exactly uncommon, so yeah you can make killer's life impossible with basekit unbreakable, even if it wastes time it's still a free advantage especially when survivors can also just heal them up
And slugging is hardly comparable to facecamp because as long as it's fixable by perks it's not an absolute problem
It's only a "waste of time" when killer gains no advantage over that specific act and ALL survivors have no agency to deal with it, if there is even one survivors standing they have an agency, and if everyone is downed it doesn't makes sense to give them free comeback
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if you really see nothing wrong with it you can stick to your opinion because i've given you my points already. if you can see nothing wrong with it and how miserable it feels to play when that happens it's just a matter of different opinions and i can respect that. i compared slugging to facecamping in that way because survivors cant do much about both situations and both can be resolved by bhvr since it's a game mechanic. it really depends on what you mean by slugging for pressure because if survivors are all up in your face then it makes sense to down them, but literally just hook them at that point. I recognize there's no actual reward to hooking since it slows the killer down in a sense, and something could be changed about that. it's a game and games are meant to be fun for both sides. if you're genuinely getting on to make the survivors miserable with that mindset every game and there's a mechanic in the game that you can just freely abuse that should be mentioned. maybe it shouldn't be 60 seconds but 90 or 120, whatever is more healthy for the game. the whole point of this post is to not allow killers to make survivors miserable without a penalty. if the killer is hooking survivors instead of just leaving them on the ground for an eternity then theres no issue to discuss but it's not always the case. i've seen a lot of opinions on this and allowing you to pick yourself back up is the most reasonable one, the only issue is how long it should take.
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And the my proposal of instant sacrifice when everyone is downed will also stops killers to make survivors miserable, you don't even need any penalty because it's outright impossible
and no, hooking at last two survivors doesn't grant any pressure, majority of times hooked survivors just sacrifice themselves only to deny killers from chances of 4k, forcing killers to utilize slugging
Something extremely strong like this is only healthy when you needs to use a perk slot
To be blatantly honest I didn't even felt miserable when being slugged, 99% of time killers will hook me when crows appear, and it's quite funny seeing other survivors running around without having to think about killers location and all that on my part
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Was there negativity? Yes. Was that fear irrational and mathematically unfounded? Also yes. Every match you would have to fail to pick someone up for 45s without them crawling. Now maybe with modern Background Player 45s would be too much, but back then it was nothing too difficult for even the weakest minded of Killers. I liked it because on Survivor because it was a natural counter to bleedouts. I also liked it as Killer because I could manipulate Survivors easier since they would act in more predictable manners.
There is not possible way it was 'unanimously' hated, because bare minimum 25% of people liked the idea of perma-slugging/bleedouts being effectively deleted. People may have had their own criticisms of its implementation, which I was one of them. I would have wanted it to take 60s, but the first 30s brings you to the current soft 95% cap, and the next 30s brings you up fully. That would give Killers more breathing room, and Survivors more reason to remain altruistic. Does a suggestion for a better idea mean the original plan is garbage? No.
As far as a current UB PTB, the only reason it would be seen as 'extremely negative' would be saying the majority of forum participants are bleedout Killer mains. That simply isn't the case. Feeling too much like a lose-lose with Background Player would be a fair complaint, and I would easily sacrifice that perk for a basekit self-pickup. I would even argue that Background Player could be fairly nerfed to when a pickup animation completes, that way it can still be used for Sabos, but not for Pallet/Blind saves. (I think Sabos are great because they offer meaningful counterplay for both sides. Sadly most maps have deleted it as a tactic by having 4-7 hooks available from normal spots on the map, and 3 hooks available on most map corners. [On the other extreme, some places are too restrictive with hooks, but they are specific layouts where people map offer in order to abuse them.])1 -
There actually is a natural reward for hooking. It provides permanent pressure, and locks in progress towards death on a Survivor. Someone is now going to have to rescue, and the Killer can provide additional pressure by chasing a would be rescuer if the Survivors got too greedy and attempted the save too late.
Survivors are also limited to 3 hook states max, compared to that 4 minute timer. By hooking a Survivor, the Killer hastens their death. The longest 3 hook states can last a Survivor is 59s before getting rescued, 59s before getting rescued again, and dead. That basically can be seen as killing a Survivor in 2 minutes. The bleedout takes twice that, and can be somewhat undone much more easily.
The only reason to slug in excess of 45s (the original PTB basekit UB) is to BM.
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Actually, it can easily take more than 45s if you are going to try to slug everyone at once
Killing a perfectly valid tactics only to stop "abuse" that doesn't even happen for majority of time feels strange
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You don't need to slug all Survivors at once, you can hook them.
Just as proxy-camping is valid, and facecamping abuse was targeted to give Survivors agency. A basekit self-pickup would still allow for Bleedouts, but now give Survivors agency in that scenario.A basekit self-pickup with 45s would kill in 6 un-assisted slugs, which matches perfectly with 3 hooks in taking twice the effort. It would push players towards the more healthy (for the game) way of killing Survivors, without deleting the gameplay opportunity slugging provides.
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You need to slug all survivors at once if you are using slugging as a winning tactics
You don't have enough time for hooking when an objective is to down all survivors, and this is hardly considered BM at all
The slug tactics and hook tactics is pretty much entire opposition, you don't even try to bleedout, you just try to down all survivors to hook them one by one
And I don't even feel slug tactics is any unhealthy because it just adds tension for both side, it can be undone by one clever save or all can lose by one mistake
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You don't need to slug all Survs simultaneously when using it as a tactic. You can do it intermittently as long as your reach the 6 unassisted slugs with a 45s basekit self-pickup. Down 1, 45s, 2, 1m30s, 3, 2m15s, 4, 3m, 5, 3m45s, 6 Dead.
You most certainly can down and hook Survivors and still meet the goal of downing them all. How is this not possible in your eyes? You can come back at any time to check on them or hook them.
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Because it's taking a reward from high risk high reward tactics
Slugging is balanced by the fact it guarantee win by risking the chance of everyone getting up and everything getting undone, if you remove that reward by giving free basekit for survivors, you are effectively removing the usage of slugging beside "adding pressure" which is more or less easier and lesser hooking
And hooking takes more than 10 seconds each, so if you hook with basekit UB it'll just make one or two survivors up and let them rescue everyone, effectively leaving you with four survivor alive with just one or two hook state which is far worse than simply hooking
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45s of pressure is more than enough time to get what you need done without stepping into the realm of being a jerk.
As far as the timing goes, I'll use the same Oni example the person tried to claim would be killed back in that PTB.
45s of power, losing 7s per down, capped at a 28s reduction or 17s from first down to last down. That gives the Killer 28s to pick up the first Surv from where they downed the last. Given that it takes ~3s to pickup, ~3s to hook, and ~8s to walk to hook (avg. of 0-16s), that takes ~14s per Surv. That means the first and second Surv is hooked before the first could pick themself up. The third is then hooked just as the final Surv has ~42s on the ground, or 3s from being able to pick themself up, and the Killer is able to down them or pick them up by the time they are finally reached. That is all assuming the Survivors decided to recover. If they decided to crawl, then you have nothing to worry about since they aren't picking themselves up in time.0 -
This feels weird because somehow you are thinking oni can down survivors within 7s, four times, then you can find and reach all of slugged survivors in zero seconds
You must find survivors during they are still alive, then you must find survivors that is on ground, this is not an easy job that can be done within 60 or even 120 seconds
45s of pressure is nothing unless you are only using it for someone unhookable, or in conjunction with tunneling (basically only usable in "normal" gameplay), full slugging tactics is 100% killed unless you are absolute speed demon (probably a wallhacker too)
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the point is to not allow that 4 man slug attempt to succeed, once again if you can down survivors quickly just hook them and get them out of the trial instead of trying to take all 4 out at once.
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If that's the point why do you think survivor deserves free hatch escape without any real counter for it
You said it was to stop abusing, but if your opinions is actually just "survivors should get a chance for hatches absolutely free no matter what" , it doesn't makes sense because there is no reason killer has to lose 1k in winning games
even with slugging killers time is still extremely limited to find a indefinitely hiding survivor (which is nigh impossible within reasonable timeframe), if you really want to get the hatch you can just hide, if you really want to leave the match quick you don't need hatch, current endgame is more or less balanced as both side takes lot of effort to get what they want
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The person was claiming (back during that PTB) the 45s UB prevents Oni snowballs. Technically the only way an Oni could snowball with all 4 downs is by having at least 1 multi-hit as the swing warmup and cooldown take longer that the 17s you have remaining after losing time for each down (so you would need Swing 1 downing Survs A+B, Swing 2 downs Surv C, Swing 3 downs Surv D).
A Killer would know where they downed the Survs, and be able to rotate accordingly. For example if I downed the Survs in the 4 compass directions. I can save massive amounts of time by hooking them at the next Surv's compass direction. Eg. Surv downed in the order of North, East, South, West. I can then pickup Surv North and hook them at East, pickup East and hook them at South, pickup South and hook them at West, then pickup West and hook for the win. (See hookmap below)
Must find them: Again, if they crawled, they bought the Killer more time, and if they recovered, the Killer knows where they are. If they crawled for 10s, they only made 7m of distance, and the Killer can spend only a mere 1.5s extra to walk to where they got downed, then walk to their new 7m further location the Surv crawled to. Even if the claim was all 4 Survs crawled for 10s before starting to recover, that only cost the Killer 6 total seconds (~1.5*4), and cost the Survivors 10 total seconds. Net positive of 4s for Killer if Survivors crawled, thus I gave the worst case scenario for Killer with instant-recovering and no crawling, and Killer still being able to hook all Survivors.
It doesn't kill slugging as a form of pressure or slowdown, but it does make hooking more effective as a form of pressure. It also gives agency to slugged Survivors, instead of telling them to just AFK till bleedout. If someone wants to still bleedout for their kills, they need 6 downs (as opposed to hooking taking 3), so they are willingly taking a harder way to kill Survs, and the Survs are still given agency to play.0 -
I'm stating slugging isn't the oni limited strategy, your simulation works for oni but it only workst for oni and no one else
It kills slugging as a means of winning the game, it stays for pressure, but it seems plain wrong to remove perfectly valid strategy only because someone utilized this for griefing
We don't need agency for slugged suvivors just like we don't need agency for hooked survivors, just remove the capability of griefing and no need for more
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You have those tools. Called them perks. Why do you think you should be protected from everything for free?
Slugging for 4k is boring, sure. I almost never do it. But it is because of the stupid hatch mechanic (which is a had to, but still stupid if you loose because of pure luck).
Also… Seriously. If you could get up for free. Why would anybody leave a generator to pick you up? It would be even worse.
And it is grate, that you play killer sometimes. Trust me, it is not the same if you play a lot and get matched against survivors with higherMMR.
I can understand that it is not fun to just lay on the ground. I do not like it either when I get it. But for christ sake it is maximum 4 minutes. Sometimes 5 gens are finished faster then that.
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I remain convinced that when they tested the finisher mori with basekit Unbreakable, they got the requirements backwards.
Instead of "everyone can pick themselves up whenever" and "when everyone is down everyone dies", it should be…
When everyone is in the dying state or hooked (i.e. no survivors standing) then everyone gains the ability to pick themselves up from the dying state.
This means only if every remaining survivor is slugged, one single survivor is able to get back up. Once that survivor is up the ability to do so deactivates for the remaining survivors. Unless they go back down.
This means it only comes into play when the killer slugs everyone, or slugs the final 2 for a 4K. Making it unviable to do so unless all/both survivors are right next to each other.
Making it similarly prohibitive to tunneling as the AFC is to camping, only in the extremes, leaving "slugging for pressure" a fair and viable tactic in regular playstyles.
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Yay, why not to remove yet another strategy just so you push tunneling even more…
Also rework any power that is wasted on picking up survivor, so Plague, Myers, Twins (that won't end well), Oni.
Getting bleed out in my experience is mostly, because you annoyed the killer. I usually bleed out any survivors trying to go for saves with Background player. If they don't want to be picked up, I won't do it.
Want to remove flash light saves and pallet saves? Because slugging is only thing you can do about it.
I got bleed out few times, where most of it were Russian streamers and few times we went for Headon SWF, so that was definetly deserved.I don't think trying to give everyone basekit unbreakable is good way to fix it. Just let survivors give up, or bleed out faster. If everyone got slugged, you lost, that's it. There is no need to give second chances in basekit.
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I'm saying that any Killer can make use of cyclical hooking, and return to slugs and secure a hook while still providing pressure even with a basekit UB.
It doesn't kill it as a means of winning, as you need 6 downs to kill (with a 45s basekit UB). If you want to torture people with annoyances to win, then it should be proportionately harder to do so. The strategy isn't removed, but it is limited.Not having agency is the root cause of the majority of DBD's complaints. Addressing agency-less situations means less complaints, which means better game. Also hooked Survivors only lack agency in that they can't refuse an unhook. Being able to choose to wait or Kobe is agency, and only the foolish Mikaela unhooking in the face of the previously tunneling Killer within a deadzone is providing the Survivor soon to be off hook without agency. The arguable way to fix that is have an alternate 3 times longer unhook animation, but it fills the Survivor's anti-facecamp Kobe bar. That way the save was already done, it took longer to complete, but allows for the unhooking Survivor to run away from hook and the Killer can chase the unhooker or wait until the 59s mark to tunnel.
(Points addressed in order of importance)
"Getting bleed out in my experience is mostly, because you annoyed the killer. I usually bleed out any survivors trying to go for saves with Background player." "I got bleed out few times … we went for Headon SWF, so that was definetly deserved."
So you purposefully ruin the experience of someone for using a normal perk within the game?!?! Are you alright IRL? I don't understand what would drive anyone to be so petty as to waste 4 minutes of their own, and someone else's life because they used a perk. This is especially why I think basekit UB should be a thing, to prevent this level of absurdist false justifications for engaging in these essentially griefing acts. Also if the SWF all died/got slugged, why did the Killer need to BM and bleedout? They simply could have not been a jerk and hooked the Survivors. This is the mindset that causes exit gate teabags against Killers who did nothing, because the last Killer bled people out for no actual reason.
At this point the only alternative to basekit UB is that 2m+ of bleedouts should be bannable (if you provide video evidence sitting under hook or crawling towards hook), because slugging at large clearly is only used by bad actors griefing people.
As far as 'push tunneling even more', that's just a self-report to not trying to learn to improve. I have a 74% winrate before the gens pop, I never actively attempt to camp or tunnel (unless they clearly tap a gen in my face, or I need the same Survivor for the 7th and 8th hook before a kill), and Ghosty/Clown/Legion/Myers are my most played/favorite Killers in descending order. It is possible to play (and win) without tunneling unless someone brainwashed the playerbase into thinking otherwise. Heck, C3 even did an excellent experiment where they purposely hooked each Survivor once, then each a second time, then finally went for kills with no gen Slowdown on Myers with a 68% winrate across 50 matches.Also normal Myers isn't even slugging heavy unless the Killer player is playing him to lose. See my previous posts in this thread on Oni math to see why that's objectively false. Can't speak to your specific Plague playstyle, but I've never needed to slug longer than 30s as Plague, even when trying to snowball with red puke, but I also learned to not overcommit, which most of the playerbase hasn't.
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You are adding more complaints for killers by arbitrary buffs, not really sure if it actually results in "less complaints" after all
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Unfounded complaints aren't an issue. I can complain that the skybox in the farm maps should instead be the missing texture purple, but that has no ground to stand on and is unfounded. Slugging can still be utilized for pressure and to snowball wins with 45s UB, or even my preferred 30s to 95%, then 30s more to self-pickup for 60s total basekit UB, but it can't be used to freely grief/BM with a known timer.
Most people overestimate how long they slug to win/apply pressure, and the majority of the time they only slug for ~30-40s tops. I'd be glad to concede this point if we take a regular streamer, view their last 10 Killer games, and they needed to slug in excess of 1m to win (reach minimum 3k) in more than 1 match (so to be clear, slugging for the 4k doesn't count, since they already won). (Although to be fair, I could cheese for my argument and use someone like Scott Jund who doesn't actively camp/slug/tunnel, and you could cheese with someone else who actively and exclusively slugs like that one Knockout Hag main who never hooks. I'd still be willing to concede if you cheesed the argument, I'm just saying the potential for both of us to abuse this exists.)1 -
what would drive anyone to be so petty as to waste 4 minutes of their own,
I am petty for sure and I don't really waste my time. I usually watch something on second monitor meanwhile.
I have simple rule for myself. I never do things I wouldn't want others do. Then when someone do something I don't like, I do something they don't like.
Yes, I am really petty person.
I won't bleed out someone just because they did save with Background player. It's a perk. What I talked about is full group of players where their whole gole is to never get hooked. Dying under pallet on purpose, multiple flashlights / sabo builds. I will bleed them all out, if possible, because it's annoying for me and it's more effective than trying to hook them.
Are you alright IRL?
No. I am playing Dead by Daylight. Like what did you expect?
bleedouts should be bannable
There are situations, where bleeding survivor is only option other than letting them wiggle out. That survivor crawled into the corner fully aware I am not able to hook them, why should I not let them bleed out?
Survivors pointing and dying under pallet on purpose. I risk pallet save, if I pick them up, why not just slug everyone? It's quite effective way to win.
Oni? It's quite normal for me to snowball with multiple survivors downed and I am not always able to find everyone…
Should hiding as survivor be bannable? They are wasting my time too…
Fix to bleedout is not banning people, that's opposite of smart thing to do. Just create give up button under specific conditions for both sides. That would make it impossible for other side to waste time, if you don't want to.
As far as 'push tunneling even more', that's just a self-report to not trying to learn to improve.
When I said, I am tunneling survivors? When I said it's only viable strategy to win?
You think nerfing other strategies is not going to push tunneling more? If so, then you are really disconnected from reality. Are you alright IRL?
Nerfing other strategies makes tunneling stand out even more. That's not hard to understand. So players who want to win are going to use it more.
I don't really like tunneling, so I usually play Hit&run killers, or killers around slugging. So Wraith, Legion, Skull merchant, Oni, Twins.
It is possible to play (and win) without tunneling
never said it's impossible… but nice try
See my previous posts in this thread on Oni math to see why that's objectively false
It just seems like you don't understand how slugging works and what created pressure from it.
There are survivors, who I am not interested in ever picking up. Whole pressure is from making another survivor run there to pick them up. That's not really the case, when everyone has unbreakable, is it?With Oni using Ultimate weapon, I can manage to slug all 4 survivors, or having 1 hooked. It's not that rare, Oni is really good killer for this.
Also normal Myers isn't even slugging heavy unless the Killer player is playing him to lose.
If you never slug as Myers or Plague, you are not playing efficiently. Whenever I find two survivors together and manage to down one of them fast enough, I am going to slug them to get as much value from my power as possible.
If you don't use your power properly, then you are playing to lose.
Imagine going and picking up every survivor you manage to down as Twins. They would be terrible. I highly doubt that rework will get live, or it will kill Twins with tons of nerfs btw….
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Petty -fair
Playing DBD so not alright -fair
Bleedouts vs hiding - So we loosely agree bleedouts should be bannable. Survivors can be banned for hiding and not doing gens if you provide evidence (specifically 10 minutes of gens not being touched). I was merely recommending the equivalent evidence for Killer bans. (as a refresher, the evidence I suggested was sitting under hook for long enough with a Killer refusing to hook the Surv) Alternatively we can take the opposite route and remove bans for hiding to maintain parity. I do agree with a surrender option for both sides regardless though.
Push tunneling more - My bad, I had Otz's video in my mind where he lied about spread pressure being nerfed, when CoH and Self-Care are butchered, so I misattributed what you were saying to be hit and run stocks are down. Yes, by virtue of say 5 options splitting a pool of cash, and reducing it to 4 (or more accurately 4.5) options, it would raise the pool for the remaining categories.
Win without tunneling - My bad again, mixed up threads and thought you were someone that was saying that you can't win without tunneling as was being said in all too many other threads.
Oni Slugging - This is where I would disagree. Pressure is obtained, yes, but not secured until the person is hooked. A hook secures the level of pressure, a slug has too many variables to consider it as free. I kill someone hooked in 2 minutes (normal case) longest with the pressure granted. I kill someone slugged in 4 minutes (normal case) shortest with that pressure granted. Plus the value of getting people bleeding orbs sooner, and having a partially filled power gauge helps keep the power active nearly all of the relevant moments of the match.
Myers Slugging - I specifically said 'slugging heavy'. There can be slugging involved, but nothing that a theoretical basekit UB would get someone up with. Also using Oblivious/Undetectable perks means the normal T3 TR no longer has its drawback. Also Myers has a greater problem if people start getting picked up, as now you have injured Survs that have no desire to heal since you are currently T3. Having T3 downtime increases the time Survivors waste on healing, and is key to my many of my victories as Myers. Essentially if I can snowball on two healthy Survivors as Myers, I know I have time to down the 2nd before someone could pickup the 1st. Then by going back to the 1st, I can hook them in the direction of the 2nd before they could get picked up also (or I could pickup and hook the 2nd in the direction of the 1st if I downed them quick enough).
Twins - I didn't say anything on them, because I have no clue what BHVR is doing with them. Their recent designs and reworks other than Billy have been questionable at best, from free hits with Chucky to whatever they are doing to Sadako to whatever happened to Trickster. I just don't want to break my brain peering into that abyss.
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So we loosely agree bleedouts should be bannable
Neither should be bannable. That's simply overreaction.
It's fine to introduce prevention systems, if BHVR consider it an issue, but simply banning people is really lazy and really bad idea.
Imagine not being able to ban cheaters properly and you ban for bleeding out / hiding instead. That would be pathetic.
Pressure is obtained, yes, but not secured until the person is hooked.
Not really, point of slugging is not bleed out of course, it can lead it tho. Main point of slugging is to gain time to hook survivors overall. You don't always go back for that survivor and there can be multiple of reasons for it.
Slugged survivor can't work on gen and another survivor has to run towards that survivor to pick them up. That simply has to happen unless they have perk to pick themselves. Survivors often stop working on gens and run there in advance, which is wasted time, if I would actually go back and pick up. There wouldn't be a reason to even try going to help that survivor, when you know for 100% they can do it themselves. That's why Unbreakable is considered to be very good perk.
Slugging is either way of getting pressure by some killers. Any killer can do it to get pressure, but most of them return to hook them. It is also an answer to several situations survivors can create. Mainly impossible hooking locations, or other survivors saving.
Or new case, if I see survivor running into the basement for no reason, I am not hooking them there, because unless I am planning to tunnel them, which is likely to be difficult, they are most likely using Wicked to self-unhook.
I don't think game is so unbalanced that you would need basekit unbreakable for everyone. Your reasoning is strategy that you don't like, it's not fun for you. It's not because it is too strong. I don't think fun aspect is reason for such a major buff. That's why they introduced mori system to basically balance it for both sides and it didn't end well.
nothing that a theoretical basekit UB would get someone up with
Same thing is before. Basekit UB nerfs slugging hard, because it lowers pressure by huge amount. It's exactly same situation as we had with CoH and people didn't understood why it is so broken for several months. Some still don't…
It's way better (for killer) when another survivor needs to included for any action. CoH made it everyone could self-heal, which is way more effective than standard healing. Basekit unbreakable is doing exactly same.
Their recent designs and reworks other than Billy have been questionable at best
at least something we can agree on
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P1- Ok I misread your point for that section.
P2 (Pressure of Slugging)- 45s is a long time to be on the ground doing nothing to progress the game. If it would take an ally 16s to heal them up, that would save 13 gen seconds in total. It still is more efficient to altruistically pickup in such a scenario. (That's also why I think the 30s to 95%, 30s more to self-pickup is better, as it further incentivizes altruism in a predictable amount of time.)
My reasoning isn't that it is simply something I don't like. I also don't think slugging (in excess of 45s) is happening to secure a victory in any more than 2% of matches tops. To solve a griefing issue and not significantly affect winrates would probably be the right type of change we should make. I'll repeat the offer I gave to the other person, and if you find a streamer who needed to 'slug in excess of 45s to secure a win' twice in their last 10 games, I'll concede this point that slugging is actively necessary with no changes needed in its current state. (Although the same qualifiers apply, I'll try to short version them here: Slugging for the 4k isn't securing a win, they already won with 3 kills. You could cheese this argument and use a Knockout Bleedout main I'd call you out on it, but still concede the point.)
P3 (Nothing a basekit UB would get people up with/'heavy slugging') - The pressure was always loosely applied outside of 4 slug circimstances, which are pretty much only done by Killers that were going to win the match regardless. That's why I've been referring to slugs as 'unsecured pressure' and hooks as 'secured pressure'. The Killer is gambling that the person doesn't have UB/Exponential/Soul Guard (if the Killer brought hexes)/Plot Twist flop timer (technically you know they did it, but its whether or not you can come back in time)/Adrenaline/Syringed by a teammate. None of those can work to get the person off of hook, but can work to get them off of the ground. I view it not too dissimilar to getting someone from healthy to injured. You can capitalize on the injured person, but it can still be undone if left unattended. There can be value in slugging/injuring someone, but it comes with its own set of risks. Getting a hook has nearly none of those risks and greater rewards.Also the problem with CoH was how it could force a Killer to spend 20s (not providing active pressure on the map) to get rid of something that only took the Survivor 14s to setup, and only 16-21s to heal (depending on which one it was, all of which more efficient than altruistic healing). I think if CoH was Self-Care speeds (~46s self-heal) with only an altruistic boost, it wouldn't have been a problem to begin with. Layered problems all down the line in its old form.
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If it would take an ally 16s to heal them up, that would save 13 gen seconds in total.
You are completely ignoring time survivor needs to actually run there. SoloQ often has multiple survivors run there instead.
There is a quite good chance survivors will stop working on gens in advance, while I can return to hit them, or simply pick that survivor up, which wasted quite a lot of time from that survivor.
All of that is simply not valid, when everyone for 100% know, they are not needed there. Doesn't matter, if you run there or not, that survivor doesn't need help. Just that makes it so huge buff. I believe this would increase "gen rushing" (just effectiveness on gens) overall.
I'll repeat the offer I gave to the other person, and if you find a streamer who needed to 'slug in excess of 45s to secure a win' twice in their last 10 games, I'll concede this point that slugging is actively necessary
I am not sure, if it was 2 in 10 games, but when Otz was doing streaks he had several games, where slugging definetly won those games, mainly during end game with gates powered, you don't have time to hook in that situation and slugging is only way for comeback.
And how often people get bleed out? Like really. Is it even 1 in 10? 1 in 100?
I would manage to make more killers bleed me out, if we play actively trying to annoy the killer whole game. That's simple payback from the killer, understandable in my opinion.
Creating impossible hook situations etc, I would manage to get this 10 out of 10 games, but that's actively trying to get bleed out, so not sure how that counts.
But it's really rare for me at least to get bleed out, because I simply don't do things (while playing survivor) that annoy me as killer main. Simple as that.
As you said, it wastes time for the killer too, so unless they have reason, they won't do it.
Most of bleed outs were by Pigs anyway and that's more rare now after her changes.
Trying to say basekit unbreakable won't affect normal gameplay is same joke as 3-gen feature doesn't affect normal gameplay. That's just not thinking of consequences.
Such a minority doesn't need feature that would affect one of main strategies. If you think it's waste of time, then let survivors give up after 1 minute of constant slugging and replace them with bot. Fixed for survivor and you also punish the killer by dealing with bot…
It won't affect game balance, killer won't be able to waste much of your time and survivors will be more motivated to help their teammates.
You would need to remove impossible heal with holding shift tho, but I don't think that's an issue.
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my opinion is that instant mori was well designed change to to prevent killer toxicity but i think the change needed to work like EGC where it has a timer.
Base-kit unbreakable really didn't work. the number were way off for what was required to implement such a mechanic. 45 second at base was too low and 100% recovery speed which result in 22.5 second pick-up was silly. 90-120 seconds is where the mechanic needed to be at. I would be more inclined to try something like that.
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P1 (Slugging and Altruism) - As far as slugs not needing help specifically, that's true, but it is more time efficient to provide assistance. Even if we included movement, the floored Survivor gains ~1/3rd recovery progress compared to healing, so it only reduces altruism's effectiveness by 2/3*travel time. Even if the Survivor ran 10s, the slug recovered 10/45s, or 2/9ths, and then the ally picks them up in 12.44s (16*7/9 remaining), for a net 22.44s. If the Killer is still busy with the other Survivor they decided to chase instead, then they can heal to full on the spot as well, and spread or duo a gen as needed (heal or no).
Saying it would increase gen rushing (or as I prefer to say GensB4Frenz, or delaying altruism), is a fair complaint. However I think as long as we make altruism more efficient (than self-pickups), and make healing the best option, then it shouldn't be an issue. There is a possible issue to address with making 'injured' more costly, but I wouldn't want anything like gen times to be affected. Probably something like Exhaustion doesn't recover while injured, alongside basekit Self-Care at 25% (64s heal), and make the perk buffed up to 45% (just enough to make altruistic healing still better). All that said, that is a massive sidetrack into off topic territory. If you want to talk about this specifically, just make another thread about making injuries more harmful and feel free to ping me.P2 - Otz streaks specifically, I thought was 2 in 50, or 4 tops (for Unknown), but to be fair I don't fully recall. If you had a specific consecutive string of games (eg. 16-25 on X Killer) then fair enough.
How often are bleedouts? - In my games (past midnight), greater than 1 in 10. I used to work nights, so late night was the only time I had to play on my days off. Unfortunately the greatest swath of degenerates and lowlives play at that timeslot, and purposely make the Survivor experience as miserable as possible. Every game is a bleedout Killer, or a tunnel at 5 gens Killer against clear soloq teams, or a VPN Killer from 8+ timezones away, or a comp pretender. Seeing the worst people the game has to offer makes the flaws of the game quite apparent. I don't have as much to complain about on Killer end because most of those are skill issues. For Killer though I hate map offerings, Borgo scratchmarks/blood (and Ormond too, but that seems to be a 'just me' problem), people playing without altruism, and more, but I never lack agency as Killer.
Impossible to hook situations - I'm not sure I'm reading this right, but I (nearly) never have this problem as Killer. I view the final hook stage and its hook destruction as a macro resource though, so I plan out not final hooking near gates or corners. This basically means it only happens when multiple members of a Survivor team comp corner on the exact same corner on death hook. It happens often enough on separate corners, but nearly never on the same one.
Basekit UB affecting normal gameplay - I mean it would marginally in edge cases, sure, but I don't think it would affect more than 2% of matches total in changing the result. That's what I meant if I wasn't clear. It would have the largest impact of bringing 60% Killer wins down to 58% Killer wins (if we blindly assume kill rate equals winrate). The remaining 58% of wins would remain wins, and the remaining 40% losses aren't becoming a new 'super loss' where the Killer player starts getting punched in the face by their monitor.Surrender feature instead - I would want both personally. Allow Survivor and Killer to surrender after X happens without a DC penalty, but also have a basekit UB. I don't see why we would need to remove Shift preventing healing though. If the Killer hooked, the Surv could have gave up on hook by Kobe-ing regardless, so I think reaching a straight minute of bleedout would still be fine enough if you can see the Killer never plans on killing you outside of bleedouts.
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