Weave Attunement + Franklin's Demise = 0 Fun
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No matter how overpowered something is, killers will defend it. I got a lot of push back for saying Vecna might be too strong, and here we are, getting nerfed already.
I have so far (luckily) only played against one person doing this so far, and boy was it a blood bath.
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I feel like aura perks are the last thing that should be nerfed right now. We don’t need to encourage stacking slowdown and second chances anymore than we already do.
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You can not stack Exhaustion, and DS would be the final change. Slowdowns are also nerfed.
I dont think no survivors want to get a cheap hit from wall hack they dont know it exist. Or killers make chase at a tile for 1min without knowing Wiretap.
Its not about nerfing aura's strength, but rather just give a quick notify that their aura being shown. Not that I want the notify shows as long as their aura's shown.
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The combo is annoying but as others have said, as soon as you realize it’s in play, all items should be used, then dropped in a corner and forgotten about. And if you are forced to loop near a corner with a dropped item, at least you know your aura is being shown because of the icon.
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While I understand what your saying (aura reading, losing item) I honestly prefer it over multiple gen slowdown perks.
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weave attunement is a perk survivors have FULL control over and are informed about. once they figure out how to play against it, it will be unusable. lol at "op"
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No matter how overpowered something is, killers will defend it.
No matter how overpowered something is, players will defend it.
It's not just killers, it's both sides... You have no idea with how many survivors I had to argue over MFT, or CoH.
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I am a survivor main, and I also called for CoH, DH, and MFT nerfs. Mainly because it did not feel good to have perks that were insanely more powerful than anything else you can do. For that reason, I would be okay with then nerfing WoO, but that's as far as that list goes. Nothing else feels like it's set and forget, every other perk is a choice. The only thing close to being set and forget is the exhaustion perks. You would need to overhaul that entirely and with how BHVR nerfs survivor stuff, they would likely be killed entirely.
So I have admitted, will you do the same for Vecna and Weave Attunement?
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I have never said "you" were against it. Just players in general.
You can try to convince me and explain why they are broken. I like to argue about things.
I my opinion, Weave attunement has primitive counterplay and you can find out killer has it in first second of the match. Why is that supposed to be broken? You can argue it's not fun for you, but that's about it.
Vecna depends which aspect of his kit. Mage hand can be without a counterplay, because of a bug. I can agree on this aspect, but that's about it.
I think Vecna is going to be quite weak after mage hand is nerfed. Low impact powers with enough counterplay, huge cool downs with additional mechanic to make him even weaker.
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Ignore everyone else I am just here having a conversation with you. You claim both sides will endlessly defend what is OP on their side. I am proving that I am completely for balancing OP survivor perks because it brings more options.
The problem with Weave Attunement is your teammates, not you. I cannot control if my teammates bring items and whether or not they figure out what perks the killer is using. I will just die faster than normal and realize after the game ends that my teammates item was used to kill me. What was my counter play in that situation? Because that's exactly what happened when I encountered this perk combo.
I think the biggest issue with Vecna is the items you get in the chests aren't very good or nearly impactful enough to have a fighting chance. Rather than just keep nerfing him I think they should focus on making the items actually worth getting.
Mage had reversion and nerf is welcome, but I don't think it will actually stop mage hand from being a near guaranteed hit. My longest chases against him so far, have been just me W keying away from him with Lithe. Anytime I try to loop him it ends very very quickly. The only way to dodge the skeletons is to just have distance on him, if he gets close enough you are just dead 90% of the time.
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The problem with Weave Attunement is your teammates, not you. I cannot control if my teammates bring items and whether or not they figure out what perks the killer is using. I will just die faster than normal and realize after the game ends that my teammates item was used to kill me. What was my counter play in that situation? Because that's exactly what happened when I encountered this perk combo.
So issue are teammates, not perk.
I am not going to consider perk to be broken, when it works only on bad players. There is a counterplay and survivors are even told about the perk. What more you want from it?
I think the biggest issue with Vecna is the items you get in the chests aren't very good or nearly impactful enough to have a fighting chance.
Boots for haste and ability to see the orb are amazing items you should try to get in every game. Roll 20 items are kinda broken (hand more than eye)
Mage had reversion and nerf is welcome, but I don't think it will actually stop mage hand from being a near guaranteed hit.
It's bad on short loops or loops with window nearby. Even more so if you get haste from boots.
The only way to dodge the skeletons is to just have distance on him, if he gets close enough you are just dead 90% of the time.
That's not true. Vecna has huge delay before he can attack. It's impossible to down survivor with it with standing pallet nearby unless the survivor screwed it.
If you learn how to run between them, which is easy, Vecna just lose lots of distance.
Crouching is easiest counterplay you can get.
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It has nothing to do with how good your teammates are, you cannot talk to your teammates. That is information that cannot be shared. No matter how good you or your teammates are, Weave Attunement by design has no counter play for the people who don't know the item was even dropped.
The orb is the only one that will get you any value, agreed. The other ones just aren't worth wasting the time on them. Both of the nat 20 items take a health state to use, and with how difficult and limited heals are. It is not worth it to give a health state for something that isn't even a guaranteed get away. Both tell the killer where you went, if it was a clean get away I would use them. But both are basically giving you a few seconds of breathing room, which could have been gotten by just giving up the health state to a hit. If you add the time you are looping to avoid that first hit, they both become no longer worth using.
With how they are designing maps now, it is pretty rare to have loops feeding into other loops. On 90% of loops on most maps, this is just going to be a free hit. I am not a bad player, I have beaten the person who is considered the best Sadako in the world. I am telling you the distance between loops is plenty big enough for him to hit you.
The time you have to run between the skeletons is in most cases less than a second. A good killer can basically spawn them on top of your hit box, making it not dodge-able at all. All crouching does is shift where your hit box is, this is not some magic skeleton tech. If the skeleton goes through you, you are getting hit, regardless of how low you can go.
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"I am not seeing or being affected by the issue, so the issue doesn't exist and you're all overblowing it."
It's all well and good that YOU haven't faced this, but lots of us have. it's an issue even if it's not an issue for you yet.
More and more both here and on the subreddit, I am seeing people point out toolboxes are overpowered and unfun to deal with now. There's not a snowball's chance in hell BHVR doesn't read all those complaints and realize MAYBE they overtuned it and then undoes it in a midchapter patch to some point.
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That is information that cannot be shared.
You don't need to. Every survivor can find out themselves. Everyone has the option since first second of the game.
It has everything to do with how good players are.
Every survivor has option to prevent the item getting into loop. If they fail at it, that's their mistake.
I am telling you the distance between loops is plenty big enough for him to hit you.
You don't need different loop against mage hand. The loop you are in is more than enough.
A good killer can basically spawn them on top of your hit box, making it not dodge-able at all.
Even that can be easily dodged as long you can see Vecna, because the animation is displayed quite well.
If you can't see Vecna, then Vecna is guessing too. You need very precise distance for this to work.
The time you have to run between the skeletons is in most cases less than a second.
Killer just lost bloodlust and gave you 4 meters extra distance. How is that not good enough for you?
Skeletons are highly limited and in most situations simply hindrance to use.
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There is a duration limit; you can pick the item back up
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I guess well have to disagree until both inevitably get nerfed. I just wish more killers cared about a fair game. They seem to only care when survivors have the tiniest edge on them. As soon as killers even remotely outperform, everyone defends it to the ends of the earth or tries to gaslight you.
Vecna has one of the highest killrates we have ever seen on the fanmade cite right now. I know it isn't "official" but when comparing to the other numbers it's obvious the killer isn't balanced atm. Even if you just played just a few games against, you would also get that something isn't right. I have played maybe 8 games against him so far, and I think only one person has escaped so far.
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⭐ DISTORTION⭐
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I just wish more killers cared about a fair game.
This is not about fair game. Just a skill issue.
Vecna has one of the highest killrates we have ever seen
Unknown had exactly same kill rate.
Almost every killer had higher kill rates than any other killer upon release. Only exceptions are killers with higher skill floor.
I had spend several hours in custom game against Vecna just to find his limits and what to do. Most survivors won't do it and it will take several weeks before it becomes public knowledge.
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ive been seeing a ton of distortion. So far, the build that I'm approaching 50 wins with has been Weave Franklin's Surge Gearhead.
Gearhead has been rather nice for chewing through those Distortion stacks. Gets em eventually.
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Devs, please don't listen to this guy.
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Every killer that has had close to that killrate has been nerfed, why do you assume Vecna is different? And I would argue that Vecna is easier to play than the killers who have had a killrate as high as this.
I just don't understand why you think Vecna is any different, why would that killrate be allowed to stay over the ones before him? Or are you saying the killrates fall naturally? How would you know that if every killer you alluded to received a nerf pass?
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Every killer that has had close to that killrate has been nerfed,
Oh really, how was Unknown nerfed?
Wesker didn't get any major changes as far I remember.
Vecna is already getting, which I find disappointing, same as Xeno. You should first fix all bugs so we can see intended version before dealing with balancing issues.
Or are you saying the killrates fall naturally?
Of course they do. It's an expected outcome. It happened to every killer even before they received any changes.
Vecna's kill rate is already under 70% and it used to be higher at start.
Killer is forced to learn how it works faster than survivors. Real power level can be decided only when survivors catch up.
When survivors learn counterplay, kill rate is going to drop. How much depends on how effective counterplay is.
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I haven't been watching enough to know if any of that is true. What I do know is killers in general have been nerfed in between the unknown getting nerfed and his killrate going down correct?
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How was Unknown nerfed? And Unknown had also around 70% kill rate with many posts on forum asking for nerf.
His current kill rate is slightly under 60%. What else changed other than survivors adapting?
Do you believe survivors know how to play against the killer from first day? If answer is no, it means kill rates are always boosted at start and will lower to some extent.
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I meant to say, killers in general got nerfed in-between the Unkown getting released, and his killrate going down. That isn't a natural drop. If that's your only example of killrates dropping over time, then you are out of examples.
Killers don't know how to play the killer and survivors don't know how to play against them. The argument that the killrate starts high and goes down doesn't make sense. Only in the scenario that all survivors don't know how to play against the killer and all killers know how to play that killer already. Would that statement make sense. If you believe this than you believe all killers play the PTB and all survivors don't, but that would be an insane belief.
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If that's your only example of killrates dropping over time, then you are out of examples.
Wesker?
I don't really bother about this enough to pay nightlight subscription and check every killers kill rates.
I can also use Vecna as an example. His kill rate already dropped and he wasn't nerfed yet. It will drop even more after the nerf and pick rate.
Killers don't know how to play the killer
When you are playing, you are simply forced to learn faster as killer than survivors who only sometimes play against it and often don't get to play whole match. How is that difficult concept?
If you believe this than you believe all killers play the PTB and all survivors don't, but that would be an insane belief.
First of all PTB is only for steam players. Also majority of players don't care at all about PTB, or read updates.
Killers don't know how to play the killer and survivors don't know how to play against them.
That's why I said except killers with high skill floor. There is an opposite effect. Kill rate starts low, then increase. How much increase depends on what counterplay is available to survivors.
For this best example is Singularity. Very high skill floor and very easy counterplay, so kill rate is terrible to this day.
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Yeah I just checked the unkown and his killrate never went over 60%, so that doesn't really fit. He has been within 1% of where he is now since he came out.
Weskers killrate was no where near this, he actually got buffed remember, people were memeing on him.
Singularity is just not a good killer in general. He requires an insane amount of play to just do much worse than the S tier killers. He has both a very high skill ceiling and cap, and he won't ever perform as well as the S tier killers. He in my opinion could do with a buff.
I don't understand how hard it is to admit that Vecna definitely needed a nerf, and likely the nerf he gets is not going to be nearly enough. I suspect after the nerf his killrate will still be around 68% and even with your suspected drop from people getting used to him. Which would still put him at the top for killrate. The closest killrates to him are of killers that people almost always give up against, which significantly increases their killrate.
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Best counter for this is to stop bringing items to bully with. Then its 2 wasted killer perks. Only get chest items when injured and drop them in a corner. Been running no items since the update and I move dropped items to corners. Problem solved.
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Sure just let me spend 2 mins searching every blade of grass looking for little Jimmy's toolbox, while showing my aura to the killer the entire time.
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You mean when I had on average an equal chance of winning or losing a match in a pvp game? Yea that would be nice now that you mention it..
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Franklin's wouldn't bother me if White Wards protected the items so that even if you lose your item for the match, you still get to keep it for next time.
Just a mechanic that allows you to keep whatever item you brought in if you use a White Ward offering, and if anyone else tries to pick up that item in the match, they can't leave with it. Have it function like escaping with a Flashbang or the Lament Configuration where it just doesn't exist anymore after escaping so survivors don't get to basically make doubles of special items. Instead of it letting you keep the item you're holding at death/escape, it has you keep whatever you started with and no one else can keep it.
Especially after not having a Lunar New Year event this year. I don't want to use my few remaining toolboxes from prior years, even though I think it's fun to have the little fireworks go off, because I can't even offer a White Ward to ensure I can still keep it because if I get hit with Franklin's and don't find the item again before I die or escape then it's just gone and it's not like I can get any more of them.
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I like bringing a med-kit to get at least one heal since I have no idea what my solo survivor team mates are going to do all game.
TBH though it’s super fun to play with this combo as Vecna but it’s miserable to play against so I guess the easiest solution is just play killer until the meta changes.
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so i've been playing onryo in the event mode and literally haven't lost a single game. probably have played ~70 games with her. not even a draw. and i'm running franklin's/weave. it's super op. the weave aura reading turns tvs into literal death traps. you literally can't interact with tvs when onryo pops out the moment you get near them.
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That sounds like skill issue, ngl. TVs turn off after teleporting. Someone has to pick up an item and take it away. Situational awareness plays fairly big part in DBD.
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Literally skill issue. Counter play exists and perks that counter it exist. Once again survivors absolutely refuse to do anything requiring any level of counter play.
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"Franklin's in and of itself is already such an unfun perk to play against, but Weave Attunement takes it 100 steps too far."
Unfun just because you lose an item?
"Please stop giving killers aura read for almost 0 effort."
How is a hit zero effort? If that's zero effort, give me an example of what would be effort. That's the epitome of earning it.
"The aura range needs to be cut in half at least. It provides too much
coverage at loops. Oblivious needs to go. Either that or have there be a
cooldown on the perk. Better yet, make Weave Attunement only activate
within the killer's terror radius AND have a cooldown."This would make the perk trash and no one would run it.
"This game is balanced around killers using addons and survivors using items."
The game is not balanced around stacked items.
"Too much information for free. "
Again how is this information free? If hit's are free, what would make it not free?
"Terrible design."
It's the epitome of good design. Requires skill (getting a hit), requires them to have an item, tells you they have the perk even, and is very easily countered by just putting the item in the corner and now 2 perks are turned off.
"I would much rather play against 4 slowdown with an item of my choice
over 2 slowdown and no item because of this awful combination. "These types of posts are the reason all we ever have is just stacked slow down, because every thing else gets complained.
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Would this combo + Skull Merchant = negative fun?
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I’d rather you play slow down perks. I don’t even ever run items and this perk is still busted.
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If the only way killers won't run 4 slowdown perks is if they get perma wall hacks, perhaps stacking slowdown is too strong?
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This entire thread is why I always ran franklins and lightborn, usually on legion with thana for extra rage.
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The killer could see the survivors' auras all match, and the game would still be fun. So I'm sure that this perk's limitations, when compared to that scenario, are fine as is. Why don't you just pick up the item or move it somewhere else? It's that easy.
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So you want every killer to have 4 slowdown and map wide aura at all times? What's next? Based on your answer, every survivor should start on the hook and if they can't unhook themselves, the match should just end.
"Game would still be fun" ← someone who has never played survivor in their life.
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Drop your item in a corner and move on. I don't get why I see so many people complain. I guess you guys would take 4 gen regression over those 2 meme perks.
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Just drop your item in a corner of the map. Not bringing an item because of a potential perk doesn't sound like the way to go.
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As usual, more Perks that are necessary to even have a chance at beating sweaty SWFs (that they'll immediately counter anyway), but will cause you to steamroll and destroy any SoloQ team in an instant. That's just the way literally everything in this game is.
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This! "Just pick up the item" If you can remember exactly where it was dropped if it was even you who dropped it. "You get notified when they see your aura" Wonderful now i get to hunt for the item that SOMEONE dropped SOMEWHERE in the area. Not to mention smaller indoor maps like lerys/hawkins make this combo exponentially stronger especially vs stealth or 0 terror radius killers/add ons/perks. I've seen "flashlights OP" as a counter point. One perk counters all flashlight/bang/firecracker saves. Give survivors a perk to counter franklins. One for one and if the killer isn't running franklins bam wasted perk slot. Checks and Balances. There hasn't been a balance to franklins since it's inception. "Drop your item" Ok if you want to play the let's handicap ourselves game, give survivors something to drop a killers addon. Seriously Suvivor perk Crotch Punch causes Killer to drop one add on. Bam checks and balances. Ridiculous? I agree.
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Honestly just give survivors the ability to see the dropped item on the ground when they're in the radius of Weave Attunement so there's no issue for them to pick it up and move it elsewhere. That's the only change the perk needs really.
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Since range is so small, finding it is never difficult in any way
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I'm pretty sure people said something similar about old object, but the reality is that constant, consistent aura reading has already been shown to have a drastic impact on the game.
Let's call a duck a duck here. Moving an item is just free slowdown for the killer, more so when it's someone else's item. And on some maps, it's not exactly easy. Good luck figuring out on which floor the solo Claudette dropped her medkit and where it is. And on a shoe box map like midwich, there's nowhere you can just drop it in a corner that isn't also a playable area.
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A good killer can basically spawn them on top of your hit box, making it not dodge-able at all
cough cough
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