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When are we going to stop pretending that Crouch Tech is fine?
Now that the hug tech is gone, it seems like the same people who called for its nerf are awfully quiet. It goes without saying that crouching on a different elevation shouldn't counter a killer's power. But BHVR sure is taking their sweet time to acknowledge it.
Comments
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I mean, killers aren't FORCED to always use their power. If a survivor keeps crouch teching you, you should probably just go for an M1. A big part of this game is learning how to make the better choice in a certain scenario. Hence why killers like Huntress or Hillbilly even have the option to M1 in the first place.
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From what I've seen, you can counter the crouch tech by looking down while attacking.
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The killers that are most affected by this have their cameras locked vertically during their power. Billy, Blight and Demo mainly.
Kind of asinine advice. Crouch tech nullifies some killer's powers to a borderline broken degree and shouldn't be a thing.
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Like who exactly?
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I mean, it says right there in my post.
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That's like saying that to counter a Blight using Hug Tech you should just stop going to tiles where they can do it. See the problem now?
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If crouch teching is so punishing for those killers and nullifies their powers to a borderline broken degree, how on earth are Billy and Blight considered some of the best killers in the game? Surely if it's so easy to counter their powers, they should barely be getting any kills. Because it's not like people don't know about crouch teching.
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Hardly a fair comparison. The killer literally makes the choice to use their power or not, survivors cannot freely choose where they encounter the killer.
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M1 tactics. Your M1 attack.
Use them.
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Crouch techs 100% need to go. Crazy how I can bounce off of a survivor as Wesker, Billy or Demo because they press crouch. A zero skill move that nullifies a lot of power plays
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Bruh. Survivors choose where to lead the killer during a chase, not the other way around. When a killer is forced to "choose" to play as an M1 killer (though it isn't really a choice, since there's no real counterplay), it effectively nullifies their power. This isn't a complex concept to understand.
The issue is even more pronounced on some maps than others. For instance, Springwood's Shack has a door that can be exploited using crouch tech, forcing the killer to handle the shack as an M1. Why is hug tech around the shack considered an exploit, but crouch tech at the shack gets a "just play around it" response?
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The majority of survivors don't even know what crouch tech is, let alone when/how to use it. It also isn't always possible, depending on the location of the interaction. It should be addressed because it straight up robs the affected killers of hits, you'd be hard pressed to use unrelated statistics to address that. Its an exploit that needs to be acknowledged and fixed, much like many of the others have been.
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They have more choice than the killer does... The killer can't choose where they are gonna hit the survivor, the killer role is entirely reactive to where the survivor goes and what the survivor does at any given moment...
You cannot with straight face claim that crouch tech is a fair and meaningful part of the game... you crouch and a small bit of elevated terrain literally prevents the killer from hitting you despite the fact his prediction of your movement, measure of the timings and accuracy of his bounces were all correct.
I and many others supported the removal of Hug tech because it is inconsistent and illogical compared to how Blight's power is understood to function, and betrays the defined rules and intended gameplay loop of the killers power. Crouch tech is exactly the same but is against Blight rather than for him.
To try and claim Hug tech was a problem, but crouch tech is fine is a ridiculous double standard that doesn't do your argument much credit my man.
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crouch tech has little to no effect if you understand how to play around it. anticipate your opponents the next time you chase them.
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other options are worse.
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I'm ok with a patch on crunch tech as long as hug tech is removed from the game too
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I've only seen a few people on here say that crouch tech is fine, and they've been from new accounts, so I don't take what they say seriously.
The devs are aware of the issue. But you have to realize that many things that seem simple, take years for BHVR to fix. If it was an easy change for the devs it would have been done by now. It took years for Blight's HT to be removed, and survivor audio levels have been botched since launch.
It's fair to critique BHVR for struggling to fix these issues, but it's not the fault of survivors or the devs not acknowledging it that's the problem. Clearly they just don't know how to fix it.
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Not fully accurate. Killers can (and should) “zone” survivors, which means they’re directing where the survivors go. Ideally you’re pushing them to dead zones or weak tiles.
Anyway how come when I crouch tech I still get hit.
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So how do you fix it? By increasing survivor's hitboxes and make it even easier for any other form of attack?
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Linking an older post of mine on the topic: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/comment/3703831/#Comment_3703831
tl;dr: Billy and Blight are so strong that the existence of crouch-teching if anything is a reasonable balance factor. They not only both have winstreaks in the thousands, but even in tournament play against the best survivor players that are all too keenly aware of when and how to best use crouch techs against them these killers still 4k pretty much any match. Demo on the other hand isn't strong enough to warrant having to deal with crouch techs, although rather than try to remove them, they should simply buff Demo, as he deserves buffs anyway and the vast majority of players don't even use or know about crouch techs.
There is also some semblance of counterplay to it. Crouch techs rarely work out against Blight to begin with, they are far from consistent or reliable, but for different-elevation crouch-teching specifically, as someone else has already noted, on Blight you can counter this by looking down before you attack. Generally if you anticipate a crouch tech you can either hold the attack and end up potentially getting a hit due to them trying to crouch it to begin with, or adjust your attack direction, because crouching usually only works out if the attack is not meeting the survivor head-on.
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What's the point in playing that killer, if I am not going to use their power?
I don't play Billy or Demogorgon just to be a M1 killer in chase. There are tons of other killers that are designed around that idea.
Not to mention, that people put a lot of effort into learning a killer's power and getting better with it so they don't need to play M1 killer as much. Because M1 killers are pretty weak in chase.
There is no way to justify the existence of crouch tech.
Same reason Nurse has a relatively low kill rate. People are bad at the game. There are more people that don't know how to use crouch tech. A lot more. So they either don't do it to begin with or they just crouch randomly and give the killer a free hit.
A while ago, I played against someone that wanted to report me because he crouched in front of me and I just back revved him. He was sure I would be unable to hit him and gave me a free down.
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Billy and Blight are so strong that the existence of crouch-teching if anything is a reasonable balance factor. They not only both have winstreaks in the thousands, but even in tournament play against the best survivor players that are all too keenly aware of when and how to best use crouch techs against them these killers still 4k pretty much any match.
You have a very different perspective on balance if an exploit is deemed "reasonable" simply because the top 0.1% of players can perform well with those killers, especially when the exploit is accessible to literally 100% of survivors. Doesn't quite add up, does it?
There is also some semblance of counterplay to it. Crouch techs rarely work out against Blight to begin with, they are far from consistent or reliable, but for different-elevation crouch-teching specifically, as someone else has already noted, on Blight you can counter this by looking down before you attack.
Not true at all. Only Billy can look down while using his power, and even then, only during the first half-second of his sprint. Any sprint longer than that can be countered by crouching.
It’s also pretty amusing that you acknowledge crouch teching as unfair for Demogorgon, yet claim Blight and Billy should have to deal with it simply because… they’re strong enough? Are we really going to start justifying exploits based on personal preferences or because top streamers and competitive players perform well with those killers? The double standards here are honestly laughable. The whole discussion isn’t whether these killers are strong or weak due to crouch tech, it’s about an obvious exploit that shouldn’t exist, one that affects not only skilled players but also those trying to learn, and which takes literally no skill to execute.2 -
98% of the time I forget crutch tech exists. 2% of time when I try it vs huntress and nemesis I still get hit all the time even by trickster too with his low throwing lol.
Also when will chucky exploit of flick hits be gone, its getting really out of hand as if they got base kit coup de grace. They are getting some really pathetic hits via slice and dice or m1s and I already hate this voodoo doll with a passion.
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Glad someone asked this. I'd love to hear some of these half-ass baked ideas on what should be done from our forum scholars. I need a good laugh this morning with my coffee.
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Oh 0 skill ok listen. Huntress with her moon size hit hox and that crutch aura read that show aura hit by hatches aint no skill along with the not needed increase that she has 7 hatches to spam now cause most huntress now just auto pilot throw without even trying to aim properly. Her ability to ignore anti camp when trying to get a end game save is also no skilled like instant down killers ability to camp(bubba the king of it)
Nemesis hitting you everywhere around everything like cars is no skill.
Demo instant breaking pallets with shread because most of them shreads for pallet breaking over trying to injure with it cause they are lazy like billy and bubba who instant break pallets.
Chucky getting wall hacks with crutch poison and exploiting the slice and dice bug and getting free hits with it or even regular m1 with flick exploits is no skill.
Wesker get a pass since I love him as an re vet and I never see people try crutch tech him as bob and weave is better
Killers in general with supermarket/fast food or vpns getting undeserved hits and we must enjoy the game from their client or even lag switching when they losing. That takes no skill.
Yesterday I had a billy that me and my swf won and our pings was fine who we was 30 each and killer was 50, we got him again after and our pings and was 300 and 400 apparently salty we beat his p100 billy so turns on lag switch mode to win for 0 effort which I was glad to record and report. Sad part too they are ttv and as a ttv myself its people like that give all us other ttvs bad names.
You know your aura read crutch add ons and perks for 24/7 free info for everything we do worst its more icreased 100 fold since distortion is a dumpster fire? That takes no skill.
Seem to killers every thing survivor do even if niche takes no skill yet killers themselves act like they dont have no skill things too.
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Surely increasing the hit box of the killers m2 attack vertically slightly would be the obvious solution. It would not affect gameplay in any other way as long as they don’t do anything crazy.
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Or maybe it's best not to mess with anything that isn't broken at the moment. Crouch tech requires skill and probably only happens 1 or 2% of the time. Besides, any killer player could do the same if they played as a survivor
Also, increasing hitboxes for m2 attacks is a massive buff to range killers4 -
Killers by the very nature of having powers requires far more skill than anything needed from survivors. Yes I can see you aura but I still have to lead you, I still have to know your hitbox lags 2 feet behind and isn't in front of you at all, I have to know when and when not to ready a hatchet or reload. I could go on honestly but if we are being fr all survivors do is hold Shift W, press space bar or ctrl and its GG EZ. Yes pressing Ctrl take ZERO skill all you do is press it. That's it.
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This is correct. Blight’s lethal rush hitbox just needs to be extended vertically downward. That’s it.
And fixing Billy’s similar issue is literally just extending the hitbox of his chainsaw vertically downward.
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You have a very different perspective on balance if an exploit is deemed "reasonable" simply because the top 0.1% of players can perform well with those killers, especially when the exploit is accessible to literally 100% of survivors. Doesn't quite add up, does it?
Different perspective on balance from what, or who? If you're trying to spin this in some "you're a filthy survivor main!" way, let me point out that I also argued against the removal of hug tech from Blight, Wolf and for more hug-techiness for Wesker. Among many other killer techs I have advocated for.
And while the argument was more so that top killer players dominate top survivor players with these killers despite the existence of crouch techs that those players will of course abuse to the full extent, it isn't only top 0.1% of players performing well on Blight and Billy. Far from.
The "accessibility" thing doesn't really make sense to me as an argument either. Techs are always accessible to anyone, theoretically. And even if I do entertain it as an argument to contrast the (also nonsensical) "0.1% of players are doing well on those killers", it's not like becoming good at a killer is not theoretically also "accessible" to anyone.
I also don't consider this an "exploit", but a tech. It's a gameplay interaction with these killers that works because of their unique hurtbox specifics (which more often than not help them get hits they wouldn't otherwise, at that) versus crouching changing a survivor's hitbox (which is intended, of course). Players can crouch under projectile attacks for the same reasons and that's deemed completely sensible, because there is interactive gameplay there - crouching costs you distance and the projectile killer may just hold, delay or cancel their ability and fake you out, or adjust it accordingly, in those cases potentially getting a hit due to you crouching that they may not otherwise have. The same is possible with these killers and crouch-teching, if to a somewhat lesser extent.
But regardless, whether something is an "exploit" or not is just semantics, I judge these things based on whether I consider the gameplay they yield desirable or not, and crouch-teching is a fun counterplay opportunity to two incredibly strong killers that however usually doesn't get you far, has its own counterplay such as holding, cancelling or predicting and preemptively adjusting the attack (head-on attacks will always connect even if the survivor is crouching, unless the survivor is on a lower elevation, but even then these killers can at times play around that), and also requires timings, predictions and risks to be taken by the survivor. It creates more depth to the gameplay.
Crouch-teching is not very reliable at all against Blight altogether, it almost never works out in the open unless the Blight gets flared or spun which however is only possible if the Blight messed up and would have usually not connected regardless of crouching or not. It's only on elevations and at pallets that it can sometimes work, and again, even then usually only delaying the inevitable hit by mere seconds.
Not true at all. Only Billy can look down while using his power, and even then, only during the first half-second of his sprint. Any sprint longer than that can be countered by crouching.
"Not true at all" right back at you: Blight can look down during rushes and before swinging, but more crucially, he can look down before rushing, which is how you will reliably hit someone crouching on elevation. Obviously you need to bump somewhere around them first for that, but it's possible. Plus often you can also simply rush past them, bump behind or around them, and rush at them from the other sides where they can't crouch-tech you.
Billy can also hit someone crouching on elevation by starting his chainsaw attack closer to them while looking down. Obviously you have to delay the attack for that at times, but it's worth pointing out in general because otherwise a survivor would just be able to force an M1 in some cases (such as at the slight elevation differences at shack doors where they can bodyblock him), which would be silly.
It’s also pretty amusing that you acknowledge crouch teching as unfair for Demogorgon, yet claim Blight and Billy should have to deal with it simply because… they’re strong enough? Are we really going to start justifying exploits based on personal preferences or because top streamers and competitive players perform well with those killers? The double standards here are honestly laughable. The whole discussion isn’t whether these killers are strong or weak due to crouch tech, it’s about an obvious exploit that shouldn’t exist, one that affects not only skilled players but also those trying to learn, and which takes literally no skill to execute.
These are just the same points reworded. Yes, I don't see what's so amusing about arguing a counterplay mechanic (call it tech or exploit or whatever you want, these to me are again merely semantic distinctions) existing being warranted if it's not adversely affecting the other side's ability to win, and on the contrary, that side still being favoured to win even against the best players that are utilizing that mechanic (as well as anything else they can do) to the fullest extent of their abilities.
It's again also not only "top streamers and competitive players" that perform well with those killers (and winning most of every time against the best survivor teams in the world and having winstreaks of thousands of matches in a row in the actual game is a little beyond "performing well"). There's countless competent Billy and Blight players out there winning most of their matches, and even on average they have 60+% killrates.
What double standard? It's completely reasonable to me to say crouch-teching is fine because the killers are more than strong enough despite its existence and it therefore if anything constituting needed counterplay. And if it's about Demo, that's not a different standard being applied, but the same standard of comparing the killer's strength to the efficacy of this counterplay, and concluding that it isn't in a reasonable relation for him. Although my solution as I've noted even then is to buff Demo generally (which he deserves anyway), not remove crouch techs. Call it personal preference, but I like crouch-teching because it's fun and adds depth to the gameplay interactions, and does so on both sides at that (while any survivor can crouch, you need to know when and where to do it, time it right, weigh risks, consider the killer's potential of playing around it, know what to do afterwards as it only buys you around two seconds before the killer can hit you again, and do all of that in split-second scenarios against fast and threatening attacks).
I get that you seemingly think anything that can be labelled an "exploit" should not exist no matter what, but not only would we then get into issues with deciding what to label as such as well as the fact that tons of things in the game could be labelled as such, but personally I just don't have that stance: even things presumably entirely unintended by the devs are fair game to me as long as they in my mind enrich the game and are good for it, labelling be damned. This goes for hug techs for one example I brought up, but also flicking on Oni or Pyramid Head, or Nemesis strafe tech, or shift tech on survivors, or the many Wesker techs (who I as I've mentioned even think should be a bit more "slidey"). All of these and more are just cool, game-enhancing tricks to me that increase the skill ceiling and that I readily and gladly use playing both killer and survivor. So if your "double standard" thing is meant to hint at some supposed bias or whatever, thousands of players that I have strafe-teched as Nemesis would like to have a word with you. And even more that I have 180°-flicked as Oni, something BHVR specifically said they wanted (and tried) to remove from the game (i. e. it's basically the closest thing to a confirmed "exploit"), and yet it is well and alive and most people are glad that it is, including myself.
Post edited by zarr on5 -
wow….
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Then it should be fixed by letting those respective killers have less vertical restrictions when using their power. But even if it isn't fixed I don't see it as becoming a huge issue since Blight and Billy are still S-tier killers along with the crouch tech not being well known at the moment and also requires specific elevation changes for it to be pulled off.
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Then nerf Blight and Billy further. Deal?
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It's getting more and more well known by the day. It doesn't even necessarily require elevation changes, crouching and moving left or right slightly makes hits that would hit an uncrouched survivor miss due to how the hitbox is set up.
The killer it affects the most is Demo, who isn't anywhere near an S-tier killer either.
If Hug Tech is unacceptable then this needs to go too.
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It doesn't even necessarily require elevation changes, crouching and moving in a direction makes hits that would hit an uncrouched survivor miss due to how the hitbox is set up.
IIRC crouching survivors have a smaller hitbox compared to when they're running or walking. Good survivors use that to avoid being hit by killer powers. I don't see a problem with this since you can still use your power on a survivor whose crouching and not on a lower elevation than you.
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It affects the hitboxes of certain killers far more than intended. You can literally be touching Demo's model but because you're crouched the actual hitbox will miss you.
I know this is an old clip but it still holds up today in terms of how this works. Demo literally slides off of the Survivor on the second shred without hitting them just because they crouched. It's crazy how hard this tech screws over Demo specifically.
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Then the hitbox should be accommodated for certain killers. Just gotta count on the devs to not destroy hitboxes as a whole.
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With chucky,neme,Freddy and huntress moon size hit boxes I doubt it.
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So because a stupid bug denies a rightful hit with power when the survivor is clearly out-positioned after making a mistake, the killer is just supposed accept it and basic attack? What about killers whose game plan depends on getting power hits, like Hillbilly or Wesker? The survivors just get to play around them for free, because they know a certain exploit?
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No, you silly killer main don’t understand anything, press contrl to completely turn off the power of the killer, this is a skill, but blight tech, where you had to memorize the textures and calculate everything correctly, is a no skill bug
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Yeah, I don't like the crouch tech or the hug tech. They're just broken. I'm sure the survivors don't like the uncounterable hug tech/turn rate breaking flicks, because he can just break into any angle even when you did the correct counterplay of running unpredictable/non-linear around obstacles. It's the same for crouch tech. Simply uncounterable crouching that somehow takes away a killer's hit. It doesn't even make any sense.
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That's the biggest issue with these types of arguments. Y'all see the killer simply finding and chasing the survivors as the problem. "It's not fair that the killer can do that to them. The survivors didn't have a choice! The horror!" It's such a a casual stance. It has no place in balance talks, and yet you see it all the time.
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How about we start by stopping with calling "Crouch Tech" a tech, it is just pressing the crouch button, that is it, it is not a tech, it is not a exploit, it is a basic game mechanic, nothing more, nothing less.
Putting that aside, this "Tech" isn't some issue with the crouch mechanic itself so much as it is a problem with killer power hitboxes not factoring it in, especially with killers that get camera locked when using their power, hopefully it gets fixed sooner rather then later but given how long it took to patch out looking down to avoid collision (also not a tech btw) I'm not holding my breath
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this right here.. screams “im an entitled survivor main and idgaf about the other side”
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