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When are we going to stop pretending that Crouch Tech is fine?

Now that the hug tech is gone, it seems like the same people who called for its nerf are awfully quiet. It goes without saying that crouching on a different elevation shouldn't counter a killer's power. But BHVR sure is taking their sweet time to acknowledge it.

Comments

  • Skittlesthehusky
    Skittlesthehusky Member Posts: 693

    crouch tech has little to no effect if you understand how to play around it. anticipate your opponents the next time you chase them.

  • cclain
    cclain Member Posts: 110

    I'm ok with a patch on crunch tech as long as hug tech is removed from the game too

  • TieBreaker
    TieBreaker Member Posts: 978

    I've only seen a few people on here say that crouch tech is fine, and they've been from new accounts, so I don't take what they say seriously.

    The devs are aware of the issue. But you have to realize that many things that seem simple, take years for BHVR to fix. If it was an easy change for the devs it would have been done by now. It took years for Blight's HT to be removed, and survivor audio levels have been botched since launch.

    It's fair to critique BHVR for struggling to fix these issues, but it's not the fault of survivors or the devs not acknowledging it that's the problem. Clearly they just don't know how to fix it.

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 2,135

    So how do you fix it? By increasing survivor's hitboxes and make it even easier for any other form of attack?

  • PreorderBonus
    PreorderBonus Member Posts: 310

    Billy and Blight are so strong that the existence of crouch-teching if anything is a reasonable balance factor. They not only both have winstreaks in the thousands, but even in tournament play against the best survivor players that are all too keenly aware of when and how to best use crouch techs against them these killers still 4k pretty much any match.

    You have a very different perspective on balance if an exploit is deemed "reasonable" simply because the top 0.1% of players can perform well with those killers, especially when the exploit is accessible to literally 100% of survivors. Doesn't quite add up, does it?

    There is also some semblance of counterplay to it. Crouch techs rarely work out against Blight to begin with, they are far from consistent or reliable, but for different-elevation crouch-teching specifically, as someone else has already noted, on Blight you can counter this by looking down before you attack.

    Not true at all. Only Billy can look down while using his power, and even then, only during the first half-second of his sprint. Any sprint longer than that can be countered by crouching.


    It’s also pretty amusing that you acknowledge crouch teching as unfair for Demogorgon, yet claim Blight and Billy should have to deal with it simply because… they’re strong enough? Are we really going to start justifying exploits based on personal preferences or because top streamers and competitive players perform well with those killers? The double standards here are honestly laughable. The whole discussion isn’t whether these killers are strong or weak due to crouch tech, it’s about an obvious exploit that shouldn’t exist, one that affects not only skilled players but also those trying to learn, and which takes literally no skill to execute.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 280
    edited November 12

    98% of the time I forget crutch tech exists. 2% of time when I try it vs huntress and nemesis I still get hit all the time even by trickster too with his low throwing lol.

    Also when will chucky exploit of flick hits be gone, its getting really out of hand as if they got base kit coup de grace. They are getting some really pathetic hits via slice and dice or m1s and I already hate this voodoo doll with a passion.

  • Nun_So_Vile
    Nun_So_Vile Member Posts: 2,419
    edited November 12

    Glad someone asked this. I'd love to hear some of these half-ass baked ideas on what should be done from our forum scholars. I need a good laugh this morning with my coffee.

  • buggybug
    buggybug Member Posts: 280

    Oh 0 skill ok listen. Huntress with her moon size hit hox and that crutch aura read that show aura hit by hatches aint no skill along with the not needed increase that she has 7 hatches to spam now cause most huntress now just auto pilot throw without even trying to aim properly. Her ability to ignore anti camp when trying to get a end game save is also no skilled like instant down killers ability to camp(bubba the king of it)

    Nemesis hitting you everywhere around everything like cars is no skill.

    Demo instant breaking pallets with shread because most of them shreads for pallet breaking over trying to injure with it cause they are lazy like billy and bubba who instant break pallets.

    Chucky getting wall hacks with crutch poison and exploiting the slice and dice bug and getting free hits with it or even regular m1 with flick exploits is no skill.

    Wesker get a pass since I love him as an re vet and I never see people try crutch tech him as bob and weave is better

    Killers in general with supermarket/fast food or vpns getting undeserved hits and we must enjoy the game from their client or even lag switching when they losing. That takes no skill.

    Yesterday I had a billy that me and my swf won and our pings was fine who we was 30 each and killer was 50, we got him again after and our pings and was 300 and 400 apparently salty we beat his p100 billy so turns on lag switch mode to win for 0 effort which I was glad to record and report. Sad part too they are ttv and as a ttv myself its people like that give all us other ttvs bad names.

    You know your aura read crutch add ons and perks for 24/7 free info for everything we do worst its more icreased 100 fold since distortion is a dumpster fire? That takes no skill.

    Seem to killers every thing survivor do even if niche takes no skill yet killers themselves act like they dont have no skill things too.

  • DarKStaR350z
    DarKStaR350z Member Posts: 765

    Surely increasing the hit box of the killers m2 attack vertically slightly would be the obvious solution. It would not affect gameplay in any other way as long as they don’t do anything crazy.

  • Rudjohns
    Rudjohns Member Posts: 2,135
    edited November 12

    Or maybe it's best not to mess with anything that isn't broken at the moment. Crouch tech requires skill and probably only happens 1 or 2% of the time. Besides, any killer player could do the same if they played as a survivor
    Also, increasing hitboxes for m2 attacks is a massive buff to range killers

  • SuspiciousBrownie
    SuspiciousBrownie Member Posts: 172

    Killers by the very nature of having powers requires far more skill than anything needed from survivors. Yes I can see you aura but I still have to lead you, I still have to know your hitbox lags 2 feet behind and isn't in front of you at all, I have to know when and when not to ready a hatchet or reload. I could go on honestly but if we are being fr all survivors do is hold Shift W, press space bar or ctrl and its GG EZ. Yes pressing Ctrl take ZERO skill all you do is press it. That's it.

  • Coffeecrashing
    Coffeecrashing Member Posts: 3,782

    This is correct. Blight’s lethal rush hitbox just needs to be extended vertically downward. That’s it.

    And fixing Billy’s similar issue is literally just extending the hitbox of his chainsaw vertically downward.

  • zarr
    zarr Member Posts: 995
    edited November 12

    You have a very different perspective on balance if an exploit is deemed "reasonable" simply because the top 0.1% of players can perform well with those killers, especially when the exploit is accessible to literally 100% of survivors. Doesn't quite add up, does it?

    Different perspective on balance from what, or who? If you're trying to spin this in some "you're a filthy survivor main!" way, let me point out that I also argued against the removal of hug tech from Blight, Wolf and for more hug-techiness for Wesker. Among many other killer techs I have advocated for.

    And while the argument was more so that top killer players dominate top survivor players with these killers despite the existence of crouch techs that those players will of course abuse to the full extent, it isn't only top 0.1% of players performing well on Blight and Billy. Far from.

    The "accessibility" thing doesn't really make sense to me as an argument either. Techs are always accessible to anyone, theoretically. And even if I do entertain it as an argument to contrast the (also nonsensical) "0.1% of players are doing well on those killers", it's not like becoming good at a killer is not theoretically also "accessible" to anyone.

    I also don't consider this an "exploit", but a tech. It's a gameplay interaction with these killers that works because of their unique hurtbox specifics (which more often than not help them get hits they wouldn't otherwise, at that) versus crouching changing a survivor's hitbox (which is intended, of course). Players can crouch under projectile attacks for the same reasons and that's deemed completely sensible, because there is interactive gameplay there - crouching costs you distance and the projectile killer may just hold, delay or cancel their ability and fake you out, or adjust it accordingly, in those cases potentially getting a hit due to you crouching that they may not otherwise have. The same is possible with these killers and crouch-teching, if to a somewhat lesser extent.

    But regardless, whether something is an "exploit" or not is just semantics, I judge these things based on whether I consider the gameplay they yield desirable or not, and crouch-teching is a fun counterplay opportunity to two incredibly strong killers that however usually doesn't get you far, has its own counterplay such as holding, cancelling or predicting and preemptively adjusting the attack (head-on attacks will always connect even if the survivor is crouching, unless the survivor is on a lower elevation, but even then these killers can at times play around that), and also requires timings, predictions and risks to be taken by the survivor. It creates more depth to the gameplay.

    Crouch-teching is not very reliable at all against Blight altogether, it almost never works out in the open unless the Blight gets flared or spun which however is only possible if the Blight messed up and would have usually not connected regardless of crouching or not. It's only on elevations and at pallets that it can sometimes work, and again, even then usually only delaying the inevitable hit by mere seconds.

    Not true at all. Only Billy can look down while using his power, and even then, only during the first half-second of his sprint. Any sprint longer than that can be countered by crouching.

    "Not true at all" right back at you: Blight can look down during rushes and before swinging, but more crucially, he can look down before rushing, which is how you will reliably hit someone crouching on elevation. Obviously you need to bump somewhere around them first for that, but it's possible. Plus often you can also simply rush past them, bump behind or around them, and rush at them from the other sides where they can't crouch-tech you.

    Billy can also hit someone crouching on elevation by starting his chainsaw attack closer to them while looking down. Obviously you have to delay the attack for that at times, but it's worth pointing out in general because otherwise a survivor would just be able to force an M1 in some cases (such as at the slight elevation differences at shack doors where they can bodyblock him), which would be silly.

    It’s also pretty amusing that you acknowledge crouch teching as unfair for Demogorgon, yet claim Blight and Billy should have to deal with it simply because… they’re strong enough? Are we really going to start justifying exploits based on personal preferences or because top streamers and competitive players perform well with those killers? The double standards here are honestly laughable. The whole discussion isn’t whether these killers are strong or weak due to crouch tech, it’s about an obvious exploit that shouldn’t exist, one that affects not only skilled players but also those trying to learn, and which takes literally no skill to execute.

    These are just the same points reworded. Yes, I don't see what's so amusing about arguing a counterplay mechanic (call it tech or exploit or whatever you want, these to me are again merely semantic distinctions) existing being warranted if it's not adversely affecting the other side's ability to win, and on the contrary, that side still being favoured to win even against the best players that are utilizing that mechanic (as well as anything else they can do) to the fullest extent of their abilities.

    It's again also not only "top streamers and competitive players" that perform well with those killers (and winning most of every time against the best survivor teams in the world and having winstreaks of thousands of matches in a row in the actual game is a little beyond "performing well"). There's countless competent Billy and Blight players out there winning most of their matches, and even on average they have 60+% killrates.

    What double standard? It's completely reasonable to me to say crouch-teching is fine because the killers are more than strong enough despite its existence and it therefore if anything constituting needed counterplay. And if it's about Demo, that's not a different standard being applied, but the same standard of comparing the killer's strength to the efficacy of this counterplay, and concluding that it isn't in a reasonable relation for him. Although my solution as I've noted even then is to buff Demo generally (which he deserves anyway), not remove crouch techs. Call it personal preference, but I like crouch-teching because it's fun and adds depth to the gameplay interactions, and does so on both sides at that (while any survivor can crouch, you need to know when and where to do it, time it right, weigh risks, consider the killer's potential of playing around it, know what to do afterwards as it only buys you around two seconds before the killer can hit you again, and do all of that in split-second scenarios against fast and threatening attacks).

    I get that you seemingly think anything that can be labelled an "exploit" should not exist no matter what, but not only would we then get into issues with deciding what to label as such as well as the fact that tons of things in the game could be labelled as such, but personally I just don't have that stance: even things presumably entirely unintended by the devs are fair game to me as long as they in my mind enrich the game and are good for it, labelling be damned. This goes for hug techs for one example I brought up, but also flicking on Oni or Pyramid Head, or Nemesis strafe tech, or shift tech on survivors, or the many Wesker techs (who I as I've mentioned even think should be a bit more "slidey"). All of these and more are just cool, game-enhancing tricks to me that increase the skill ceiling and that I readily and gladly use playing both killer and survivor. So if your "double standard" thing is meant to hint at some supposed bias or whatever, thousands of players that I have strafe-teched as Nemesis would like to have a word with you. And even more that I have 180°-flicked as Oni, something BHVR specifically said they wanted (and tried) to remove from the game (i. e. it's basically the closest thing to a confirmed "exploit"), and yet it is well and alive and most people are glad that it is, including myself.

    Post edited by zarr on
  • versacefeng
    versacefeng Member Posts: 1,193
    edited November 13

    Then it should be fixed by letting those respective killers have less vertical restrictions when using their power. But even if it isn't fixed I don't see it as becoming a huge issue since Blight and Billy are still S-tier killers along with the crouch tech not being well known at the moment and also requires specific elevation changes for it to be pulled off.

  • Choaron
    Choaron Member Posts: 363
    edited November 13

    Then nerf Blight and Billy further. Deal?

  • ReverseVelocity
    ReverseVelocity Member Posts: 4,517
    edited November 13

    It's getting more and more well known by the day. It doesn't even necessarily require elevation changes, crouching and moving left or right slightly makes hits that would hit an uncrouched survivor miss due to how the hitbox is set up.

    The killer it affects the most is Demo, who isn't anywhere near an S-tier killer either.

    If Hug Tech is unacceptable then this needs to go too.

  • versacefeng
    versacefeng Member Posts: 1,193

    It doesn't even necessarily require elevation changes, crouching and moving in a direction makes hits that would hit an uncrouched survivor miss due to how the hitbox is set up.

    IIRC crouching survivors have a smaller hitbox compared to when they're running or walking. Good survivors use that to avoid being hit by killer powers. I don't see a problem with this since you can still use your power on a survivor whose crouching and not on a lower elevation than you.

  • ReverseVelocity
    ReverseVelocity Member Posts: 4,517

    It affects the hitboxes of certain killers far more than intended. You can literally be touching Demo's model but because you're crouched the actual hitbox will miss you.

    I know this is an old clip but it still holds up today in terms of how this works. Demo literally slides off of the Survivor on the second shred without hitting them just because they crouched. It's crazy how hard this tech screws over Demo specifically.

  • versacefeng
    versacefeng Member Posts: 1,193

    Then the hitbox should be accommodated for certain killers. Just gotta count on the devs to not destroy hitboxes as a whole.