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Slugging For The 4K - An Exaggerated Problem?
Comments
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And that's where Unbreakable and Soul Guard come in. Takes the choice out of it. Either let them bleed out quickly, or allow them to get up and possibly escape or even worse, waste your time while the other survivors finish the gens that are being neglected. Either way, chief complaint of matches taking too long is solved… at least part of the way. The other reason matches are taking so long is because of the greed for the 4k. Just hook and go for hatch, and kill the last survivor or wait for end game collapse.
Survivors survive and goal not to be killed.
Killers hunt and kill.
I do believe in honor in gaming and being ethical as well as not toxic. Can't fault a survivor for surviving. Doing what they are supposed to do. It's in the name. Same with killer. Can't fault for killing. But leaving someone slugged and not killing just for the 4k, not too honorable nor respectful. Hiding in a corner all game and not helping your other survivor, (by either working on a gen, creating a distraction via vaulting on the other side of the map, blowing up a gen, etc., engaging in a chase, finding an item to assist in healing or saves, etc.) but literally just going from locker to locker in the basement; that is not honorable or respectful either.
I see both sides, but I have also seen a lot that result in false accusations, just because the killer can't find a certain survivor, does not mean they were hiding all game. What most likely happened is they are doing gens, totems, etc, and walk to the next task successfully avoiding a killer's half-baked search. Not saying that's the case every time because I have absolutely had some dirt survivors. but a good bit of players I'm on a team with or going against, the case is the former. Just simply taking their time and good at avoiding being spotted.
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ok.. so you have 0 argument, youre just mad
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there is absolutely no reason for killers to let 4th guy escape
I don't understand this bit either…
Killing the third survivor does not guarantee an escape to the fourth. Slugging the third survivor also doesn't guarantee the fourth one dies.
Slugging the third is really just wasting time.
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i never said it guarantee but he got advantage.. they can cooperate 3rd and 4th and (if offering for hatch was used) 3rd guy can sacrifice himself away from hatch location and 4th can wait nearby. i have 0 chance to get last guy but if i slug 3rd i have the same chance as without offering because if i find him before 3rd dies i win, otherwise its race and with my luck 9/10 times i won't find hatch before 4th so i only get max 3 kills and i don't care if 3 kills are considered win, i play against 4 survivors so i go for 4 kills and i will always slug 3rd guy so 4th can't move freely far aways from me looking for hatch
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This, had this chucky today just not(not surprised at all anyways) was just down to me and the other survivor, as usual I make loud noises stood at a hook he slugs me to look for the last person just to ofc get the disgusting mori. Just love how these killers make these 200000000 post about the last 2 survivors hiding but the ones like me who says HERE I AM COME GET ME they still slug just to deny hatch and see their stale moris. To killer mains please give better excuses and stop qqing that the last 2 survivors keep stalling the game when yall refuse to kill the third one willingly giving themselves to you.
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But the 3rd guy doesn't know where the hatch is since it hasn't spawned in yet, so how can they 'sacrifice away from hatch'? And you are at an advantage when searching for the hatch because you move much faster than a survivor trying to be stealthy.
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There has to be something to actually discuss and the other side has to use critical thinking for any discussion to be valuable. As an example, you called me a 'baby survivor'. Looking at my profile for half a second would show I have over 2,500 posts. If you were curious enough to check my join date you would see I joined in 2021. Even the most rudimentary usage of critical thinking would piece together that the chance I joined the forums to comment extensively on a game I don't play or barely play and kept it at it for 4 years is pretty much nil.
There also has to be something of substance in order to respond. Your argument doesn't have that.
I suspect the only person here that is mad is you due to your responses since you don't want to confront that you support play styles, and most likely engage in them, that are more toxic than the exit gate teabaggers. I would suggest, for your peace of mind, that you either accept that you're that toxic while gaming and not care or to stop slugging for the 4K. It's not like BHVR is going to punish either slugging for the 4K (or exit gate teabaggers for that matter) either way and right now you're just using stock responses instead of actually making any real arguments of your own.
If you do say something original or that addresses any points made and isn't a rehashed stock point that's already been debunked multiple times in this thread I'll respond. But, if not, have a good day.
Post edited by TheSubstitute on7 -
you compared teabagging to slugging one guy for max 4 minutes to get 4 kills and you dare talking about critical thinking…THINKING. u kidding? and now youre pretending like it wasn;t you XD like you proved something, proved im wrong, used actual argument. but you never did. it's pure ignorance what you did with that teabagging so now you're trying to ridicule me. you still have 0 argument, YOU turned this disscussion personal beacuse you have no arguments against slugging for 4k.
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You realize that there's been multiple responses to slugging for the 4k from a lot of people and that you haven't really countered any of them other than hurl insults or tantrums correct?
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Slugging for the 4k only becomes a problem if the survivor to GOT slugged to begin with crawls to another continent making sure they can't be found.
Slugging for the 4k is functionally no different than coordinating an adrenaline play with your teammate.
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Wrong.
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You like to say "Wrong" without explaining why. Which tells me you're incapable of doing so. So keep quiet unless you want to elaborate, okay little bro?
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I took a page from your book. And you’re still wrong.
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I've never once said "wrong" without explaining it.
But kindly, tell me why I'm wrong, ll bro. :)
Rhetorical question. We both know you can't.
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I'm sure glad we got that out of the way. Cause I totally could have known that with your private profile, and completely neutral name/profile picture.
That wasn't the gotcha you think it was, now, kindly tell me why I'm wrong? Cause honestly, it just seems like you're trolling at this point, and you're doing an awful job.
Post edited by BoxGhost on1 -
It couldn’t have been that neutral; you’ve called me brother twice now. That is a male pronoun, correct?
FWIW, nothing on my profile would identify my gender. BHVR doesn’t have the option to include gender anywhere on our profiles and it isn’t something that comes up in regular conversation here. You assumed I’m a man, for whatever reason, when you made those condescending remarks.
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"Lil bro" isn't meant to point out gender. It's me not taking anything you say seriously. It's a fairly common comment to make. Sorry you didn't understand.
But yes, I don't take you seriously. You keep telling me I'm wrong despite being, what I can only assume is, logically incapable of telling me why. So have a good day. I'll take that fat W. GG.
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Lol enjoy your ‘fat win’ or whatever you’ve called this. Be blessed.
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That's completely mistaken. An adrenaline play is playing DbD as intended. What would be closer to slugging for the 4K would be if BHVR extended the EGC to four minutes and disabled the Killer's ability to attack survivors as soon as two survivors got out so the remaining survivors could then get a few extra BP and possibly pip by flashlighting and pallet stunning the Killer. It would be even closer if the Killer would get a movement debuff so they could only move at crawling speed. Then the conditions would approximate what the survivor being bled out for the 4K has as their playing conditions.
It's pretty obvious that BHVR doesn't want that as BHVR put in the Hatch mechanic so the last survivor has something to try to do and introduced the EGC to stop hatch standoffs. As well, any even half intelligent analysis would recognize that a player doing nothing for four minutes isn't healthy, enjoyable gameplay. If that is what someone is purporting then we could introduce a mechanic where after the survivors clearly win the Killer could be rendered helpless so the one or two remaining survivors could farm BP and pips for four minutes. That would be the closest functionally to what the survivor being bled out experiences.
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Slugging is also an intended mechanic. That's why it's in the game.
Slugging for the 4k is also heavily incentivized. Especially by certain tome challenges. Making it intended.
Just because survivors don't like it, it doesn't mean it's not intended.
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Slugging strategically is an intended mechanic. Slugging for the 4K is not heavily incentivized. You can make the argument that it helps with pips if it's the second last survivor but, BP wise, playtime wise and most likely pip wise as well over the long term, hooking the second last survivor and moving on to the next Hatch is the best move with the short queue times. This is especially true as the Hatch search favours the Killer over the Survivor as the Killer covers ground more quickly and doesn't have to stop to hide.
None of the tome challenges mention slugging specifically. The only 4K challenge that I can recall off the top of my head that sets a specific sacrifice condition (aside from with these perks) is the Trapper basement challenge which was an early tome and never repeated (implying BHVR learned from this). The sacrifice for the 4K implies hooks as that is how the game is designed.
The Last Survivor Standing playtest where UB was basekit also shows BHVR has been thinking about how to correct this for years.
Slugging for the 4K is definitely not intended behaviour and, with the upswing making it a problem just as the Erupting Call of Overbrine meta did with 3 genning, BHVR will act to curb the worst abuses in time.
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That's denying reality to say that Hatch doesn't favour Killer. The reality is the majority of time the Killer closes the Hatch.
As well, looking at BP earned over multiple matches shows there is overall more BP earned simply by going to a new match as opposed to a small amount in one category you get more BP due to events triggering in all 4 categories. The math simply doesn't support any of your statements. The only statement with any validity to it is that for adepts slugging the second last survivor to search for the last gives a greater chance of getting the achievement. That still ignores, however, that you're still wasting another person's time and anyone with decent sportsmanship wouldn't do it.
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I find slugging really boring. I try not to do it on purpose, unless there's an actual tactical reason to leave someone down that long. If I do it, I try not to do it for more than a minute or two. If I can't find you after a down because you crawled away, that's not me slugging, that's your problem, I always try to come back for a hook because I want the points more than the kill.
I actually rarely experience this as Survivor, at least not for longer than a minute tops. It's almost always, when I am left down to finish off a 4k, the Killer coming back to Mori or hook me after getting the other person because they're not that far away from me. And that just isn't a problem, a slug, or an issue to me at all. THAT is what I think is exaggerated, and THAT is what I think people are getting unreasonably upset with - just the Killer finishing off the round and cleaning up for a 4k because they have a challenge or want to pip. And what exactly is wrong with that? Nobody owes you an escape just like nobody owes you a kill after all. And the game itself, for better or worse, really really really incentivizes you as Killer to wanna go for that extra pip.
To me, the only time slugging is a problem is if a) they do it for four minutes to stand over your body and gloat, b) they do it from 5 gens to 4k slug everyone so nobody gets a game. If it happens at the end? You got a game, you got points. It's a non issue. The round is over, let it go, you lost. At least that's how I see it - my round is over, I lose, oh well gg go next.
I just… I don't get how ANYONE considers this an issue so much, they want the Mori system removed or feel it's toxic. I genuinely don't.
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What you're doing with your arguments is you're saying 'hey, in this particular niche situation it might be better to slug for the 4K'. In other words, you're using outliers in order to make a general statement. It's more accurate to look at the actual conditions and determine what would be done from that.
It's also ignoring the lack of sportsmanship aspect of the slugging for the 4K which, if you don't care about showing sportsmanship, you can ignore all you like. However, that's not how all people think.
The hiding infinitely is just as bad as slugging for the 4K although it occurs significantly less. However, it would be easier to solve. All BHVR has to do is make AFK crows appear if someone hasn't touched a gen for more than a few seconds, healed another survivor, or been in chase for X minutes (with X being whatever amount BHVR feels is appropriate).
It's not the same priority, however, although it is just as frustrating and terrible to do as slugging for the 4K as it occurs significantly less. Attempting to argue it is on the same level of a problem as the slugging for the 4K would be akin to saying that a house that is fully ablaze is on the same level as a fire in a garbage can. Both need to be dealt with but one is significantly more serious. Slugging for the 4K has pretty much become the norm in matches for Killers while two survivors hiding out for Hatch is still a rare occurrence.
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Hi, a reminder to please keep comments civil and respectful. Thank you!
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Anyone who keeps stating if I down the third survivor and look for the fourth and the third crawls away hiding really needs a wake up call. If you want to be greedy then the slugged have right to deny that and waste your time too no excuses.
Hook the third take the 3k or suffer too just like the third person is suffering especially if the third person WILLINGLY gave them self up to you.
This why both bots and finisher mori should be gone. what would you killers do then? Cause the real problem yall don't want to admit is bots and finisher mori has became the reason slugging has increased even when the first set of gen regress perks was nerfed.
Honestly all survivor yall should do a video compilation cause that what I be doing and maybe bvhr will wake up showing the excuse of this last 2 survivor hiding all game is just a poor man excuse by killers when ones like me is literally handing myself over to you.
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im talking with YOU and YOU don't have any argument against slugging for 4k.
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but you understand that hatch spawn is random so it doesn't favour anyone unless offering is used? killer closes hatch because 4th surv didn't even try to move until hatch was already open, it's choice to not look for hatch and stay in locker… in every other case it's killer's luck if they close before you
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slugging for 4k is strategy too you know? and you can use bill's perk to get up when killer is looking for 4th guy..it's only your choice to not use it.
maybe we should talk about how killers CAN'T counter any kind of stun? oh wait, thats in survivors favour so noone talk about it… people here only whine if something is not in survivor favour even tho they can counter it FOR FREE without using real money.0 -
You cant counter stuns???? So respecting pallets isn't a thing?
If you wanna go that route and complain about a survivor's one line of defense, lets talk about "Bill's perk" aka unbreakable which has a one time use vs killer perks like Enduring, Spirit Fury or Nemesis which are active all game and used more than once. Or, you just respect pallets. And if youre afraid of those pesky little flashlights, there is Franklins or Lightborn.
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and why would you use unbreakable before endgame?? i literally compared lack of counter to existing counter because one is in your favour but you talk only when its against survivor even tho you can counter slugging xD. u can literally use unbreakable, hide or heal and hide and wait until killer kills 4th guy so now you can try to escape through hatch. is that so difficult for you to do? you can even heal yourself without med kit because there is perk from ….. FREE survivor. WOOOOW you can get up, heal yourself, hide and wait for hatch but no you will whine how bad is slugging for 4k, it's not bad.. slugging for 4k is strategy just like hiding like a coward and waiting for hatch.
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That's not accurate. If you would like to say UB is an acceptable counter to slugging the second last survivor for the 4K then it's just as acceptable to say that the existence of Spies in the Shadows and the plethora of aura reading perks justifies two survivors hiding out for Hatch. The Killer role overall has more tools to deal with two Survivors hiding than Survivors have to deal with slugging for the 4K. In reality, neither slugging for the 4K or hiding out for Hatch are acceptable as both are based around circumventing normal game mechanics. The Killer should just hook the third survivor and move on just as in the case of the two hiding Survivors they should try to complete the gens.
In regards to stunning the Killer could respect the pallet. That might not be the best move as it can save time in many situations to just eat the stun so you can destroy the pallet and whittle down the survivors' resources and set up for the 4K.
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That would only be an accurate statement if Killers and Survivors moved at the same rate and had the same conditions. Every player, regardless of role, can learn the spawn locations. However, the Killer player moves faster and doesn't have to avoid being spotted. That allows the Killer player to check out the most likely spawn locations faster and more efficiently than the Survivor player and to cover more ground. The Survivor not only moves slower but has to frequently stop in order to not be seen by the Killer. As the Killer can check more spawn points and search the map faster than the Survivor it favours the Killer role.
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According to nightlight, 2/3 of the games that end in at least a 3k, end in a 4k specifically. That suggests that the killer has a significant advantage searching for hatch
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Since you are clearly a killer main, you should know what the drop key is. You really think a survivor slugged can pick themselves up, heal AND find the hatch before the killer (who moves faster and does not need to worry about being spotted) can? This does not count for the killer seeing the slug picking themselves up and instantly leaving what was the 4th survivor to go after the previous slug. Now you talk about using self-care to heal at THIRTY-FIVE% speed aka over 45 seconds. And should the killer just decide to hook the 4th survivor (which they almost never do), you have to take time into account all while trying to get around the killer seeing/hearing you. Yup, that seems like a very viable solution.
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Well others have explained it but if you so desperately want to hear it from us:
- It stalls out the game. The killer is leaving the 3rd to bleed out to "look" for the 4th thereby increasing the time it takes that 3rd to die a vast majority of the time. If the killer is "looking" for the 4th while keeping eyes on the slug, then the most reasonable course is for that 4th to hide and wait for the bleed. What happens then? Survivor hides, hatch spawns and both the killer and 4th are where they would have been 4ish minutes ago if the killer killed the 3rd.
- In most cases its pointless to a majority. While Prometheus did have a point that its up to the killer for the "reason" to be good enough, many here including us, feel these reasons aren't as the killer has effectively won by practically all metrics. (Slugger: "Must have the 4k" Us: "Why?" S: "points" U:"your only getting a smidge more at best and losing points at worst if that guy bleeds out" S:"MMR!" U:"you mean that invisible number that was already going up if you caught 3? Why's it mater if it goes up slightly this round?" S: "cause they hid all game" U:"how do you know if they hid all game? Maybe you just kept missing them, maybe they did work but actually we're able to avoid you?" )
- Your not guaranteed the 4k anyway. Slight repeat of the above but slugging for the 4k doesn't mean your going to get it. Hatch spawns at survivors feet when the 3rd dies, outsmarting the killer and getting a door, finding a key in a box, etc. This then made the whole stalling worthless.
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xD so why do you think unbreakable exist?? because what i see for you it's useless
there is mechanic and there is counter to that mechanic. that's how the game is. you have pallets and windows to escape killer, killer have perks to automatically destroy pallet after being stunned and perk to block windows after using them.. killer can put you down and slug, you can get up without help and more, you can blind killer so killer can use perk to block blindness. but you can stun killer and killer CAN'T counter it, can't block it.
the only person in game that can respect or not respect pallet is survivor. pallets are yours, not killer's… oh and i can say the same to you.. just EAT that slug lol or just die with some honor instead of whining on forum how bad slugging is lol.. just take the L and go next game. this kind of logic can be always used against you beacuse it's dumb logic. take the L and play another game.0 -
no.. movement speed doesn't matter, you still can't predict where hatch appears. it can spawn righ behind you or next to killer's location so how movement speed matter?
ok nvm …. here's situation. you hide in a locker, on the other side of map i hook 3rd guy, he dies instantly because it was his 3rd hook. but you can get out of locker the moment you saw i picked 3rd guy so you have advantage already because you can start moving away from me or towards me, but i can't because i have to hook that guy so you won't cry about slugging… you have few seconds to start looking for hatch or just change place but i can start moving only when 3rd is hooked. ofc you won't find hatch before 3rd guy dies but it doesn't matter because you can already start moving because you know where i am and i don't know where are you or even if i knew you have time to move away from that place.0 -
i rarely find hatch before 4th guy if i make that mistake and kill 3rd instantly instead of slugging for few minutes. when i slug 3rd guy i win with 4 kills, not every time ofc but mostly. and i could bet that most 4k games are won by slugging 3rd guy.
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i play both sides. ye i think they can… im barely average survivor and killer and i can do this, i already did few times.. unless killer i much more skilled you can still win the game even without healing. all you need is wait for killer go look for 4th guy and do what 4th tried, hide, wait, run and pray.
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You don't understand how movement speed for a mechanic where you're more likely to be successful the more ground you cover is important?
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So there's no issue with hiding for the Hatch with two survivors then since Killers have Spies in the Shadows and multiple aura reading perks and add-ons?
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its 4 minutes.. if you think that's stalling then what you say about hiding for much longer ?? and you understand that hook stages takes 70s unless you give up? it only takes longer for 3rd guy to die, it's not stalling XD the game is not longer because of that.
oh ok.. you clearly never played killer or doesn't understand at all how it is
how am i guaranteed 4k??xDDD you didn't explain how am i guaranteed 4k anyway. that's a lot of … nothing, you actually said nothing XD GOOD JOB0 -
I've seen maybe 10 killers slug for the 4k in my ~1,200 hours on survivor. Maybe 20-30 if we include the ones where the 4th survivor was right there. I think you're the exception here.
I don't think slugging is a problem because it's ubiquitous(because it's not), i think it's a problem because it's not engaging
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If you don't understand how movement speed matters with a mechanic where your chance of success is greater the more ground you cover it's kind of pointless to continue a discussion.
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you too have aura reading perks you know that? XD and i never said hiding is issue, all i say is that you all survivor mains are whining because you're just mad at killers for slugging to get 4k
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maybe if become more skilled i won't have to slug but before it happen i will to get points faster or just to punish greedy survivors, or just toxic like one time i slugged whole team because they didn't give me choice with their builds.. its still devs fault for creating matchmaking that make you (newbie killer) play against bully squad.
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play as killer until you meet campers… then come back to talk again.
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So are we talking about slugging for the 4k or 2 survivors up and hiding? Both bad as we've previously stated to Prometheus and yet there's differences. Do we need to spell it out again or want to read back some posts?
hook stages takes 70s unless you give up?
And it's still quicker than bleeding out. Tell us which one of these is the longest in seconds: 10, 70, 140, 240. If you picked 240 congratulations, you picked how long it takes for the full bleed out. Meanwhile two of the other ones can be shortened and 1 is basically negligible (10 is roughly death hook aka the dying animation, 70 is roughly second hook, 140 if you never hooked the 3rd). And we suppose we should point out the obvious that yes it's stalling and taking longer by virtue of BEING longer in actual time measurements. Your stalling to try and get a 4k, but it is stalling unless you know for sure where that last survivor is.
oh ok..
If that's truly the best you can think of then you obviously don't understand how others think. Or just want to try and make us look bad. Hard to tell. Also:
Sharing has never worked so well in our favor before.
how am i guaranteed 4k?
We suppose you would normally have a point that we didn't explicitly say, but on the other hand, you've spouted nonsense and harsh language already so we're giving ourselves a pass.
Many slug for the 4k to ya know GET the 4k, but since it doesn't actually increase the chance of getting the 4k under most circumstances if the survivor actually hides it out, it's not guaranteed. Meaning it's as effective as hooking that 3rd to begin with but with the "benefit" of wasting all the extra time.
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How're you going to run into a camper as a killer? Survivors can't camp.
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