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Slugging For The 4K - An Exaggerated Problem?
Comments
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That would only be an accurate statement if Killers and Survivors moved at the same rate and had the same conditions. Every player, regardless of role, can learn the spawn locations. However, the Killer player moves faster and doesn't have to avoid being spotted. That allows the Killer player to check out the most likely spawn locations faster and more efficiently than the Survivor player and to cover more ground. The Survivor not only moves slower but has to frequently stop in order to not be seen by the Killer. As the Killer can check more spawn points and search the map faster than the Survivor it favours the Killer role.
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According to nightlight, 2/3 of the games that end in at least a 3k, end in a 4k specifically. That suggests that the killer has a significant advantage searching for hatch
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Since you are clearly a killer main, you should know what the drop key is. You really think a survivor slugged can pick themselves up, heal AND find the hatch before the killer (who moves faster and does not need to worry about being spotted) can? This does not count for the killer seeing the slug picking themselves up and instantly leaving what was the 4th survivor to go after the previous slug. Now you talk about using self-care to heal at THIRTY-FIVE% speed aka over 45 seconds. And should the killer just decide to hook the 4th survivor (which they almost never do), you have to take time into account all while trying to get around the killer seeing/hearing you. Yup, that seems like a very viable solution.
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Well others have explained it but if you so desperately want to hear it from us:
- It stalls out the game. The killer is leaving the 3rd to bleed out to "look" for the 4th thereby increasing the time it takes that 3rd to die a vast majority of the time. If the killer is "looking" for the 4th while keeping eyes on the slug, then the most reasonable course is for that 4th to hide and wait for the bleed. What happens then? Survivor hides, hatch spawns and both the killer and 4th are where they would have been 4ish minutes ago if the killer killed the 3rd.
- In most cases its pointless to a majority. While Prometheus did have a point that its up to the killer for the "reason" to be good enough, many here including us, feel these reasons aren't as the killer has effectively won by practically all metrics. (Slugger: "Must have the 4k" Us: "Why?" S: "points" U:"your only getting a smidge more at best and losing points at worst if that guy bleeds out" S:"MMR!" U:"you mean that invisible number that was already going up if you caught 3? Why's it mater if it goes up slightly this round?" S: "cause they hid all game" U:"how do you know if they hid all game? Maybe you just kept missing them, maybe they did work but actually we're able to avoid you?" )
- Your not guaranteed the 4k anyway. Slight repeat of the above but slugging for the 4k doesn't mean your going to get it. Hatch spawns at survivors feet when the 3rd dies, outsmarting the killer and getting a door, finding a key in a box, etc. This then made the whole stalling worthless.
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xD so why do you think unbreakable exist?? because what i see for you it's useless
there is mechanic and there is counter to that mechanic. that's how the game is. you have pallets and windows to escape killer, killer have perks to automatically destroy pallet after being stunned and perk to block windows after using them.. killer can put you down and slug, you can get up without help and more, you can blind killer so killer can use perk to block blindness. but you can stun killer and killer CAN'T counter it, can't block it.
the only person in game that can respect or not respect pallet is survivor. pallets are yours, not killer's… oh and i can say the same to you.. just EAT that slug lol or just die with some honor instead of whining on forum how bad slugging is lol.. just take the L and go next game. this kind of logic can be always used against you beacuse it's dumb logic. take the L and play another game.0 -
no.. movement speed doesn't matter, you still can't predict where hatch appears. it can spawn righ behind you or next to killer's location so how movement speed matter?
ok nvm …. here's situation. you hide in a locker, on the other side of map i hook 3rd guy, he dies instantly because it was his 3rd hook. but you can get out of locker the moment you saw i picked 3rd guy so you have advantage already because you can start moving away from me or towards me, but i can't because i have to hook that guy so you won't cry about slugging… you have few seconds to start looking for hatch or just change place but i can start moving only when 3rd is hooked. ofc you won't find hatch before 3rd guy dies but it doesn't matter because you can already start moving because you know where i am and i don't know where are you or even if i knew you have time to move away from that place.0 -
i rarely find hatch before 4th guy if i make that mistake and kill 3rd instantly instead of slugging for few minutes. when i slug 3rd guy i win with 4 kills, not every time ofc but mostly. and i could bet that most 4k games are won by slugging 3rd guy.
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i play both sides. ye i think they can… im barely average survivor and killer and i can do this, i already did few times.. unless killer i much more skilled you can still win the game even without healing. all you need is wait for killer go look for 4th guy and do what 4th tried, hide, wait, run and pray.
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You don't understand how movement speed for a mechanic where you're more likely to be successful the more ground you cover is important?
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So there's no issue with hiding for the Hatch with two survivors then since Killers have Spies in the Shadows and multiple aura reading perks and add-ons?
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its 4 minutes.. if you think that's stalling then what you say about hiding for much longer ?? and you understand that hook stages takes 70s unless you give up? it only takes longer for 3rd guy to die, it's not stalling XD the game is not longer because of that.
oh ok.. you clearly never played killer or doesn't understand at all how it is
how am i guaranteed 4k??xDDD you didn't explain how am i guaranteed 4k anyway. that's a lot of … nothing, you actually said nothing XD GOOD JOB0 -
I've seen maybe 10 killers slug for the 4k in my ~1,200 hours on survivor. Maybe 20-30 if we include the ones where the 4th survivor was right there. I think you're the exception here.
I don't think slugging is a problem because it's ubiquitous(because it's not), i think it's a problem because it's not engaging
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If you don't understand how movement speed matters with a mechanic where your chance of success is greater the more ground you cover it's kind of pointless to continue a discussion.
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you too have aura reading perks you know that? XD and i never said hiding is issue, all i say is that you all survivor mains are whining because you're just mad at killers for slugging to get 4k
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maybe if become more skilled i won't have to slug but before it happen i will to get points faster or just to punish greedy survivors, or just toxic like one time i slugged whole team because they didn't give me choice with their builds.. its still devs fault for creating matchmaking that make you (newbie killer) play against bully squad.
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play as killer until you meet campers… then come back to talk again.
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So are we talking about slugging for the 4k or 2 survivors up and hiding? Both bad as we've previously stated to Prometheus and yet there's differences. Do we need to spell it out again or want to read back some posts?
hook stages takes 70s unless you give up?
And it's still quicker than bleeding out. Tell us which one of these is the longest in seconds: 10, 70, 140, 240. If you picked 240 congratulations, you picked how long it takes for the full bleed out. Meanwhile two of the other ones can be shortened and 1 is basically negligible (10 is roughly death hook aka the dying animation, 70 is roughly second hook, 140 if you never hooked the 3rd). And we suppose we should point out the obvious that yes it's stalling and taking longer by virtue of BEING longer in actual time measurements. Your stalling to try and get a 4k, but it is stalling unless you know for sure where that last survivor is.
oh ok..
If that's truly the best you can think of then you obviously don't understand how others think. Or just want to try and make us look bad. Hard to tell. Also:
Sharing has never worked so well in our favor before.
how am i guaranteed 4k?
We suppose you would normally have a point that we didn't explicitly say, but on the other hand, you've spouted nonsense and harsh language already so we're giving ourselves a pass.
Many slug for the 4k to ya know GET the 4k, but since it doesn't actually increase the chance of getting the 4k under most circumstances if the survivor actually hides it out, it's not guaranteed. Meaning it's as effective as hooking that 3rd to begin with but with the "benefit" of wasting all the extra time.
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How're you going to run into a camper as a killer? Survivors can't camp.
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Jumping back in to beg the devs to fix this garbage. I'm so unbelievably sick of slugging for the 4k. It's so dumb and it's a waste of everyone's time. Nobody should have to concede to end the game in a timely manner. It's quite literally one side of the playerbase doing this because they want to win harder. It's not a both sides issue. Manage the community. Fix the mechanic. Do something. Please.
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You still didn't tell me why the 4th survivor is worth >4min which is about half the time to get 3-4 new kills and why the slug deserves to wait for you to get it.
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The hatch spawns after the animation plays for the 3rd sacrifice. It doesn't matter that the 4th survivor is free to "search for hatch" while the killer hooks, because they are searching for a thing that does not exist yet, so they cannot find it.
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topic is about slugging but you changed it ;)
no survivor would bleed out for 4 minutes if they didnt crawl ;) not my fault you can't sit in one place since you can't do anything anyway. take that L and go for another game, your choice and 4 minutes waiting is your reward.
ok so its not guaranteed and you're just liar, making some stories to prove your point and you fail again and again. no, hooking 3rd is not as effective and you know that but you still choose to ignore… no surprise0 -
oh i see you don't even know what camper means… not surprising. try again
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still waiting for any argument against slugging for 4k.. you know exactly what's the prize for killing everyone, you just pretend there's no reward.
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Maybe you could elucidate us, o great and wise Berienn, since none of us know as much about the game as you and your remarkable…
Uh…
25 days of service.
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Yes, I know. Like 5k BP and apparently a massive ego boost. My point is you can earn a lot more BP in that time. I can't offer you a replacement for the boost though.
If you are still waiting for an argument against 4k-slugging I suggest you read up on empathy. The way it plays out is stupid. Which you troll already know, too.
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The empathy argument isn't valid, because both sides of the game aren't being considered. Slugging has issues on BOTH sides of the game, but instead of addressing both sides, most people want to focus 100% on the slugging issues that affect survivors, and 0% on the slugging issues that affect killers.
Survivors will sometimes be in situations were the killer can't reliably hook them, especially when the survivors are purposely bringing specific perks or items to place themselves in situations where they can't be hooked. But most of the "solutions" to slugging will punish killers if they are in a situation where they can't reliably hook a sruvivor.
And this is why I keep suggesting for survivors to get teleported to a 2v8 cage if they have been slugged for a minute. It fixes the slugging issues on BOTH sides of the game.
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I'm not most people. I'm exactly and only me. If I notice the killer looking around for a hook I will crawl under one. Sometimes I did this when being bledout, too, but to no effect. A lot of suggested solutions I see boil down to instant sacrifice as soon as it is a 2v1. Well, not really, but might as well. Furthermore, I'm not advocating for any specific solution but merely trying to establish the problem. Being unable to do much of anything and thus nothing happening for >6min (worst case) with an average gametime of 10min is absurd.
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Having empathy on the slugging issue, would mean caring about how slugging has problems on both sides of the game. If you are going to ask other people to have empathy, then you should be showing empathy for both sides of the game.
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wait. you think that your time on this forum is prove of idk your knowledge about game? XD is this joke?
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oh ego boost.. that's what makes you mad.. no i won't get more points in that time XD and you know that too but again you pretend it's different because you have to prove your point.
i'm talking with you so i only care if YOU have any argument. if you can't form any argument it means you rly have no idea what you're talking about. at this point you are the only one trolling here.. you're trying to prove you're right without giving any argument, that's not how discussion work.0 -
I do this in a thread that has that topic. I'm not writing essays with 7 disclaimers so no one feels excluded. This thread is about 4k-slugging, not about two survivors eternally hiding. Empathy isn't even my main argument or one I would generally use. I just tried arguing with a troll. No idea why I thought empathy was a decent hook. No pun intended.
This is said troll. No substance, all defamation. Apparent from his very first post.
Berienn, once more you failed to answer how a game with no choices is a game to begin with. Neither did you inform me what is so obvious to you and what I'm so oblivious to. You aren't discussing anything. You are debating. Talking to you is a waste of time. Decent troll though, wp. Would've been much less obvious if you skipped the swear words.
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topic is about slugging but you changed it ;)
From your previous post which is implying something different:
if you think that's stalling then what you say about hiding for much longer ??
So how are Survivors hiding for much longer than the bleed out? Think before you leap please, this is getting to easy.
no survivor would bleed out for 4 minutes if they didnt crawl
One, that's factually incorrect as there's killers that literally do bleed out survivors for kicks. Second off they wouldn't bleed out of the we're hooked would they? Third even if they stayed still, they'd probably be waiting close to the full time anyway while you desperately "search" for the 4th survivor. Can you prove any of these wrong?
take that L and go for another game, your choice and 4 minutes waiting is your reward.
Strange how that survivor hasn't lost yet. Firellius (sorry Firellius for the noise) also brought up this point and you strangely ignored it.
Specifically:
They CAN win. That's why they hide. It's their only way TO win.
When you got a way to win do you give in? And before you try and compare that to slugging for the 4k, remember that killing the 3rd does not immediately give that 4th the escape. The killer is not giving up a single kill by killing the 3rd, unlike the survivor if they "took the L".
ok so its not guaranteed and you're just liar, making some stories to prove your point and you fail again and again.
So let's get this straight: We're liars because we used some poor choice of words because we inferred a thought, that we've been lying about things and failing to prove our point to everyone, and we're apparently ignoring this wholely factual truth that slugging for the 4k is better than hooking the 3rd. This all despite the fact we've pointed out what happens, pulled proof that we have atleast a decent grasp of how things work in the game, and how others are doing the same...wow…
Whatever kinda crazy you have can we get some for tonight's party?
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The easiest way to fix slugging for 4ks AND trying to gengrind and leave in under 10 minutes, would be to totally rework emblems and make it so Grades truly mean what the community thinks they are: nothing but a marker of time. Right now, a 4k is the difference in Gold or Iri between pipping and not pipping, encouraging this sort of sweaty play.
If BHVR and the community want to have no 4k slugs, the game needs to not encourage always going for a 4k like it currently does. You cannot blame the players for doing what the game says they're intended to do.
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Instant Mori on 3rd survivor down is not possible with Hatch offerings how they are. That's a guaranteed escape, cause Survivors just run away from the location of the hatch offering and the 4th gets out for free with no way for the killer to contest.
The only way you stop slugging for the 4k is you give the Killer Instinct on the 4th survivor when the 3rd survivor dies, then buff Sole Survivor to block this effect.
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To be fair, retiring the hatch offerings is also on the table
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Fair point 😅
Though we are getting a little slim on usable offerings the longer the game goes on 😁
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I'm all for reworking Grades a bit, but I'm not convinced that's the reason killers do this. I think it's a power trip thing mostly. BP carrots to incentivize player behavior historically haven't worked.
Granted, the DbD community isn't really known for being logical, so I could see how some killers would think extending a trial for 5+ minutes over a single pip is worth it over simply playing more games and stacking 3ks with some 4ks.
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then just get rid of the hatch offering.
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I wouldn't mind a total reworking of the idea of how Offerings work, but being that is unlikely to happen -you could just delay the time it takes for the hatch to spawn if there was an instant mori on the third survivor.
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Aye, fair...
Though as I've thought about it more, doesn't this start to add more problems? What if a player doesn't want to quit? Giving up when the 3rd player is downed is not an universal decision for all players. What about the scenario where 2 players are left, one is distracting as the other is opening the gate and goes down under a pallet nearby. You just force them to die?
Doesn't the instart mori on 3rd downed survivor guarantee its impossible to save or attempt to escape? No flashlights or flashbang attempts? No stall for Unbreakable? What if they've got Flip Flop and Power Struggle? WGLF and Made For This? What if I've used Breakdown and successfully made a Deadzone?
What if the 3rd survivor still has hook stages and the 4th has the gate 99d and wants to wait for the hook to try and exchange because they have said perks?
What about the same 2 man scenario but the chased player gets downed near the line? No heal tech? No body block to help them escape? They just die? What if a player wants to crawl away with Tenacity and try for a hatch escape?
What about killer perks to fairly play for the hatch? I can't use BBQ and Chilli or Friends to the End to find the 4th? Or get at least a head start while they hide from it?
This change always forces the killer to play hatch, which is the goal, but what aboit Adepts? You might not care about achievements, but plenty of people do, and this just makes killer adepts even harder…
Not to mention with your proposed version you have this weird scenario where the Mori isn't in the killers control... What if I as killer have a player DC cause they're a whiner and decide I want to play out my hook stages, kill anyone who wants to quit, but let anyone who doesn't also quit go for sticking it out? Once a second player SoHs, I can't get hook stages anymore and have to stop completely, can't give any flashlight or pallet saves since these players got screwed over by a dirt bag teammate? Soon as I down someone they just die?
What if I'm Huntress and get an orbital? What if they drop on the floor from failing to mend? Or use Plot Twist? Does the Entity just kill them remotely? Seems a bit weird.
Unless you want to impose a rule to only allow when the gates aren't powered, or an optional accept mori option, but at this point the rule is starting to become complex and confusing, because it doesn't really make sense anymore if we start throwing on a load of restrictions to account for many scenarios.
This doesn't sound like a very clean solution, and makes the whole interaction of third down messy and confusing...
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While this is true, we're also aware theres not going to be a pretty solution. The main thorn that comes in dealing with slugging for the 4k is that its the players freedom and agency. To actually remove it in a way that will keep "resonables" happy (and we're using both terms loosely) isn't gonna be done without impacting them. Your ability to use bbq to find that last survivor is also another's ability to leave that 4th slugged. Things like this why any solution for this is either going to be brutally simple and restricting or heavily to complex.
That being said, we don't really have any solution we like, so pick a poison and chug.
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There surely is a reason people bleed out for 4ks besides "all Killers are jerks that want to ruin the Survivor experience", because Killer players are also humans.
If there really is an epidemic of this going on, and most games are ending in actual 4 man bleedouts, we need to ask what is making Killers do this. Bad behavior doesn't happen in a vacuum. With all the stuff in the game that encourages not doing this, why are Killers actually doing this?
I'm just not convinced it's the trite answer of "all the Killer players want to have a power trip" and that's it. There's something else going on encouraging this behavior. We should find out what, and solve it, instead of everyone flinging accusations of being toxic at each other and demanding BHVR fix it with another bandaid. Because sticks historically haven't worked either, do you really handle Decisive Strike by not tunnelling or do you juts tunnel through it anyway because that works? Did all the Killers suddenly stop proxy camping just because anti facecamp was added? Of course not, some learned this was preferable and did it more, and some have just always done this. It didn't really stop anything that Survivors are frustrated about, just the worst kind of camping (and similarly an anti-slug system should therefore only punish the worst kind of slugging, this kind).
It could even be as simple as Killers misreading Survivor play as more sweaty than it is, or more annoying than it is, and doing this out of frustration. If that's why, then the solution is to make the game less frustrating. It could be that hooking is discouraged, or Killers feel it's discouraged. It could even be that the game focuses too much on encouraging a 4k by any means necessary - if it IS that, clarifying what a win is could fix that, as could making a 2-3k feel as satisfying as a 4k. I certainly am fine with anything between a 2-4k myself, and I'd be encouraged to go for it more if there were some bonus or benefit to not playing as hard as I can to dominate other than feel good vibes.
But I don't think it's just that "Killers like to power trip". Not by a longshot, because I know plenty of Survivor Mains who also like to powertrip against baby Killers. You can see evidence of this on Youtube titled stuff like "Bullying baby Killers with my flashlight squad!" and "this build makes Killers cry!".
@Rulebreaker I think you're right, there is no clean solution and the only real option BHVR has is to ONLY punish the worst kind of slugging: bleeding everyone out for four minutes when three or more are on the ground. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that is slugging. You can debate if slugging for a 4k when two people are left is a true toxic slug or just tactics, you can debate if slugging someone who has DS to avoid is is toxic or a tactic, and you can debate if altruism getting many Survivors downed at once is toxic or tactical. But you cannot debate that someone slugging everyone at 4 or 5 gens is being tactical, that is honestly actually just being a jerk to be a jerk.0 -
Well, of the options presented, an instant mori on the third survivor being downed after 2 survivors are dead seems to come with the far greater negative of forcing the 3rd player to lose, even if they want to still try to win.
We're basically making it mandatory for survivors to give up once 2 players are dead and go for hatch... and I don't think that is a compromise I'd be willing to make... if a player wants to play and still try to survive, they should have the right to try, and this instant mori suggestion doesn't permit that... ergo it's an objectively bad suggestion that goes against the goal of the game.
If we're wanting to make it truly unbeneficial to slug for the 4k, the way to solve it would be allow a survivor to give up, but not force them to. If I were to take my old Desperation idea and jack it up:
After 2 other survivors are dead or dying and situation is at its most dire, unlock Desperation. When fully recovered to 95% or more in the dying state press the rush button to enter Desperation. While in Desperation: -
- You crawl 50% faster
- Make 50% more louder grunts of pain
- Bleedout 200% faster (3c/s or 70s from full bleedout (+30s to recover to 95%))
I used to have it at 150%, but if were trying to stop slugging hard, if you can bleed out in only a max of 100s, slugging for the 4k is far less profitable and a reasonable time to have to evade the killer. The killer is better off taking perks that activate off hooks to find the last survivor via aura reads rather than gamble on hatch... and the important difference here, is it's the survivors choice if they want to attempt to survive or not.
Now this comes with the obvious problems of players giving up, which is why the 2 other survivors condition is needed, and things like killer adepts and especially evil incarnate achievements/trophies starting to become quite near impossible, there is no realistic way to ensure you can catch all survivors even if you've effectively won the game, and some challeneges will also suck really hard as well for killer... to be honest it's pretty crap that the killer can't secure a 4k if they need to, and would make a lot of killer challenges awful... but that's the destination no matter what route we go in this thread.
However this is the route you need to go if you're gonna try and hamfist slugging for the 4k out of the game... You can't make it mandatory that a survivor has to give up. That is antithetical to the entire point of the game.
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No solution will be perfect, and any proposed solution will incur some new issues. The goal is whether the new idea will improve over the existing problems. That's true for problem solving for basically any type of issue, not just video games.
I should also note that my favored solution would be a rapidly increased bleedout for both thematic and balance reasons, but looking through your list of issues:
What if a player doesn't want to quit?There's lots of situations where I don't want to die or lose, that's part of a game.
What about the scenario where 2 players are left, one is distracting as the other is opening the gate and goes down under a pallet nearby. You just force them to die? Doesn't the instart mori on 3rd downed survivor guarantee its impossible to save or attempt to escape? No flashlights or flashbang attempts? No stall for Unbreakable? What if they've got Flip Flop and Power Struggle? WGLF and Made For This? What if I've used Breakdown and successfully made a Deadzone?I'd be fine with that. In this scenario you have a standoff situation. One survivor is under a pallet, the other can rescue, but if the survivor crawls out from under the pallet the killer picks them up.
Basically the survivors are now hoping to out boredom the killer. I'm fine with that situation disappearing as well (or basically any situation in DbD that can be described as a standoff).
I was in a situation like this as killer. Playing on Ormond, doors open, survivor is downed under a pallet, too far to make it to the door, and I know the other remaining survivor has background player. If I pick up, they get the stun, if not the survivor bleedouts. We're just waiting to see whether one of us grows bored first. I'm not sure why anyone would want that situation in a game.
What if the 3rd survivor still has hook stages and the 4th has the gate 99d and wants to wait for the hook to try and exchange because they have said perks?What about the same 2 man scenario but the chased player gets downed near the line? No heal tech? No body block to help them escape? They just die?Sure. We've moved the line that a survivor needs to get to to escape a few meters.
What if a player wants to crawl away with Tenacity and try for a hatch escape?Such a rare occurrence that I'd be fine with giving that up as a trade off.
What about killer perks to fairly play for the hatch? I can't use BBQ and Chilli or Friends to the End to find the 4th? Or get at least a head start while they hide from it?Yeah, those perks would be ever so slightly weaker.
This change always forces the killer to play hatch, which is the goal, but what aboit Adepts? You might not care about achievements, but plenty of people do, and this just makes killer adepts even harder…What percentage of total killer games ever played are for adepts? Probably well less than 1%.
Not to mention with your proposed version you have this weird scenario where the Mori isn't in the killers control... What if I as killer have a player DC cause they're a whiner and decide I want to play out my hook stages, kill anyone who wants to quit, but let anyone who doesn't also quit go for sticking it out?Killers letting survivors go is its own whole issue (something I do in the situation you describe). It allows MMR to be manipulated and throws off the stats that BHVR balances the game around. If that is common enough to worry about and this change would address that, its an overall positive.
What if I'm Huntress and get an orbital? What if they drop on the floor from failing to mend? Or use Plot Twist? Does the Entity just kill them remotely? Seems a bit weird.I think this is actually the biggest thing, how weird it would feel and break the game flow. I think that's a far bigger concern than most of the issues discussed.
Though most of these could be fixed by adding a 'when the third survivor is downed and the killer is or becomes within 8m' requirement.
Unless you want to impose a rule to only allow when the gates aren't powered, or an optional accept mori option, but at this point the rule is starting to become complex and confusing, because it doesn't really make sense anymore if we start throwing on a load of restrictions to account for many scenarios.I think the only relevant situation is gates being powered, and we already treat other things differently when gates are powered like AFC mechanic.
This doesn't sound like a very clean solution, and makes the whole interaction of third down messy and confusing...So as I mentioned above, my preferred solution would be rapidly increased bleedout, say 5 to 7 times the current rate, so a full health survivor has 34 to 48 seconds (and I'd put the rapidly increase to start when all survivors but 1 are down).
That said, I don't think it is really messy, you're just preferring the status quo design. Imagine that moring the 3rd downed survivor had always been in the game. Would we be having threads posted about how a survivor thought they could have gotten value out of Tenacity or killers wishing they could get value out of BBQ? Maybe on very rare occasions, but nothing like the rate at which people complain about slugging.
On the other hand, if we did instant third moris, I pretty confident there would be new players confused about why the Huntress auto teleports to a downed survivor.
I think a lot of mechanics are like that: such as hook grabs. I have a hard time remembering they ever existed (and when I do I remember it's how dull it felt), if hook grabs had never existed (which is true for anyone new coming into the game) I don't think anyone would feel like something is missing.
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I'm just not convinced it's the trite answer of "all the Killer players want to have a power trip" and that's it. There's something else going on encouraging this behavior. We should find out what, and solve it, instead of everyone flinging accusations of being toxic at each other and demanding BHVR fix it with another bandaid.
Problem is, we do need fixes. You wanna explore that, great, go for it, but until you have a working theory, we do need to address what's going on, otherwise it's just stalling.
Because sticks historically haven't worked either
Sticks, historically, haven't been tried, is the real issue. Well, that's not entirely true, because back when the killer was weaker and DS was stronger, it was legitimately working to disincentivise tunnelling. The problem with these sticks is that there is a vocal group of killers that specifically insist on these things staying in the game as they are, and they are being catered to. Even now, there's complaints of DS being too strong, even as you claim that you can just tunnel through it.
Killers can and will slam their face into every countermeasure devised and then complain about the fact that they got punished by something specifically designed to punish that specific thing.
Sticks work. BHVR just needs to actually implement them, instead of pussyfooting around the issues.
But I don't think it's just that "Killers like to power trip". Not by a longshot, because I know plenty of Survivor Mains who also like to powertrip against baby Killers. You can see evidence of this on Youtube titled stuff like "Bullying baby Killers with my flashlight squad!" and "this build makes Killers cry!".
That's not an argument to disprove that it's a 'killer power trip'. 'Tu quoque' does include a 'quoque', after all.
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It does not matter what individual players think when they 4man slug or just slug for the 4k. In case of the 4man slug it might just be the most convenient to let them all bleedout. Either you want to do something about potentially half the game being dead time or you don't. The most recent survey says they are looking into it but its definition-matching does not fill me with hope.
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We're basically making it mandatory for survivors to give up once 2 players are dead and go for hatch...
We don't understand how this becomes mandatory if the 3rd is insta moried. Its effectively the same if 2 are alive already with gens needing done, they can either both hide for hatch, both work on gens, 1 gen 1 hide, etc. Only now they effectively have 1 "hookstate" (more accurate to say 1 down but we like dramatic). No one needs to give up, its a slightly less chance that both make it out and removing some clutch plays while for killers its an inconvenience because they cant use a hook perk then and cant slug that 3rd survivor.
Now we may not particularly like this idea but at this point all routes should be looked at. Yes some killer challenges will get harder (no cheeper [({our opinion])} way for the adepts, …we don't actually see evil incarnate getting harder from any solution to slugging for 4k we've seen…)
If we may tweek your idea, once survivors bleed out bar is below half (they've been slugged for 2 minutes at least) and they're fully recovered then they bleed out faster with all your goodies. This prevents most the extreme cases of abuse from both sides that we can see and helps 4 man slugging a bit as well.
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Well, to clarify:
We don't understand how this becomes mandatory if the 3rd is insta moried.
I didn't mean that player actually gives up, I mean by downing and auto executing the 3rd player, this suggestion forces the 3rd player to lose automatically, regardless of any other effects in the game, which has the same effect as if you're forcing them to give up… by forcing the 3rd player to die you're basically saying "well most players give up at this point, you've basically lost, so we're just gonna go ahead and make that decision for you and kill you".
I highlighted a whole bunch of ways this player can still escape, but there are still more, like Deliverance or Wicked, Adrenaline. No One Left Behind combined with Overcome or Dead Hard. The death of Unbreakable is really felt here... I literally have to use it before 2 players left, otherwise I just die.
By enforcing an instant 3rd player mori, great, you've solved slugging for the 4k... but in the process you've sacrificed so much and made the game a lot dumber... you've killed all of the ways a survivor player can clutch for their team... and not only have you have killed all the scenarios I've described, you kill all potential future ones as well.
As you say ideas should be explored... which is what I'm doing... and my conclusion following that exploration is that the suggestion to auto execute the 3rd survivor on down does far more to damage the game than slugging for the 4k does. You acknowledge you don't like it... I loathe the idea... I didn't at first, but the more I thought about it, the more problems I identified. It's a bad idea for more reasons yet than I've listed here... and I've listed a lot of them.
If we may tweek your idea, once survivors bleed out bar is below half (they've been slugged for 2 minutes at least) and they're fully recovered then they bleed out faster with all your goodies. This prevents most the extreme cases of abuse from both sides that we can see and helps 4 man slugging a bit as well.
Sure more restricted version. Though my only concern is likely this doesn't do enough to prevent the slug for 4k irritation. It's kinda taking 4 minutes down to 3 minutes, which I don't think addresses the primary concern.
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Aye a lot of what you're saying makes sense, but the issue I have is how many scenarios being killed off with this change. You don't just kill off slugging for the 4k, you also kill off legitimate slugging for the win.
Scenario 1: If there are 2 of us left, 4 gens repaired, last is at 90%. I have Unbreakable or Adrenaline, and I'm looping to buy time, but get downed.
On the current system, the killer is now in a quandry, they know they have a gen about to pop, they don't have time to hook me, and they don't know if I have Unbreakable or Adrenaline or not. If I do, then they have to hook me, or risk losing one of us. The killer has a decision to make, can they hook me and try to catch the other survivor before they make it to gate? Or do they leave me slugged and go for the other survivor?
On the new system, no decision to be made, no thought whatsoever, we kill off any notion of trying to catch the last survivor before they make gate.
Scenario 2: 2 survivors left, gate is powered, both are injured, and the gate is 50% powered.
On the current system, if the killer catches the first survivor, they have a chance to run to gate and stop the last survivor escaping. The correct play here is to slug, cause you don't have time to hook the other survivor.
On the new system, the killer literally can't stop 1 survivor escaping in this scenario… and it's not cause they aren't smart enough to recognise the situation, the game FORCES them to kill the 3rd survivor, so they are stuck in an animation and have to watch the 4th survivor complete the gate unable to interrupt.
This is awful, because any intelligent killer in our fantasy world with any agency of their own, would never sit killing 1 person, while another person opens the gate behind them.
There are numerous scenarios like this. You can say they're rare, and sure the slug for the 4k scenario is more common… but that doesn't make this irrelevant…. and this is awful. It reminds me of my irritation with Alien vs. Predator execution animations where you are not safe from damage. I as the alien caught someone, started executing them, and I wanted to do a quick stab through the chest and run back into the darkness before I get killed… but no… I'm trapped in a long ass animation mashing my sprint button, waving my damn tail in their face like an idiot, hoping it ends fast enough for me to get away which inevitably doesn't happen, and I die, and it's really annoying because I as an intelligent entity know that a slow drawn out kill right now is stupid…
It'd be the same problem here, I as Bubba wouldn't stand gyrating over a survivor I'm killing while the other steals my lunch… These scenarios to my mind are unacceptable. They don't make sense, rob me of my agency and hurt the game more overall with a stupid rule imposed on everyone because of a flaw in the design of hatch. I as the survivor would abuse the same, knowing the killer must kill one of us, he has to try and kill one of us while opening the gate, so he body blocks it for the other… so I just run to other gate in complete safety.
I almost always give hatch, I don't even take the finisher mori except for rare occasions… and I play more survivor than killer now, and even I'm sat here thinking this is awful from both survivor and killer perspective.
Bleedout route is far more sensible.
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