Wake Up! + Beast Of Prey Changes Are Horrible
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WAKE UP! Changes…
Wake Up! was changed from a flat 50% faster Exit Gate opening speed (PTB), to a scaling 12.5% faster Exit Gate opening speed that increases per Survivor still alive (Live Servers).
The intent was to nerf selfish playstyles but unironically this was not an issue. Wake Up! already revealed your location while you were opening the Exit Gates to help your team, and served a decent functionality. All this really serves to do is reduce the effectiveness based on various circumstances.
In example, if the Killer tunnels a Survivor the entire game, and they are dead near the end of the match, in a 3v1, your effectiveness at opening the Exit Gates for your team is reduced to +37.5% (Live Servers) compared to the original +50% (PTB). In 2v1 situations, Wake Up basically functions the same as it did before the PTB, you only get +25%.
This, by extension, also makes certain achievements even harder. The Left For Dead achievement is one of the hardest in the games and by making this change, this achievement is only harder by giving you +12.5% (Live Servers) compared to 25% (Older Versions).
Keep in mind as well that Wake Up! is designed to be the counter to Remember Me, they are a mirror match-up. Remember Me encourages tunneling and killing the Obsession as soon as possible, since hitting them gives stacks and the Exit Gate debuff does not apply to the Obsession. In cases where Remember Me and Wake Up! are paired together, Remember Me will always have the upper hand, since Wake Up! will have it's effectiveness reduced by the Obsession being dead (providing a maximum of +37.5% in this match-up).
But if BHVR wanted to nerf "selfish" playstyles, there are tons of other perks that do the same. Left Behind, Sole Survivor, etc. all still lack the ability to provide benefits to the team as a whole whenever someone dies, and only serves to promote letting the team die to gain effects.
Beast Of Prey Changes…
Upon gaining Bloodlust, gain the Undetectable status effect for 25 seconds (PTB) was changed to 40 seconds (Live Servers). Beast of Prey has a 120 second cooldown.
For whatever reason BHVR things the duration of this perk is the issue… it isnt. In fact there are just many things wrong with this perk.
First off, why does this perk have a 120 second cooldown? This perk takes longer to come back than it takes to repair a single Generator… think about that. 120 seconds is 2 minutes, so youll maybe get 2 activation (3 if you are lucky) per game.
Second off, this perk is an undetectable chase perk. Undetectable, as a status effect, is a weak chase tool. There are just better perk for taking chases that actually, you know, do something. Undetectable is designed for stealth, for sneaking up on other Survivors, applying that to a chase perk just doesnt work.
Finally, because it is tied to Undetectable, it can actually harm your chases, since you lose the ability to Red-Stain mindgame loops. The Red-Stain is such an important part of chasing a Survivor that it can (often) result in your getting downs or not getting downs solely by how well or poorly you manage it, removing the Red-Stain for a chase removes such potential entirely.
So turns out the version of the perk listed in the Patch Notes was just… wrong? I’m guessing someone writing them got the versions mixed up, generally this section can be ignored but I’m just going to cross it out so people can read what I originally put.
TLDR on my thoughts on the perk; I do think the new version, of having it be a “disengage” perk, is alright but generally I still don’t think it is really “worth” the perk slot and could probably use further tweaking.
It feels more like a SoloQ stomper perk ngl, SWFs can call it out easily but SoloQ cannot, which leads to this really one-sided dynamic where it outright does nothing against one group of players but does everything against another… I think maybe that could be looked into.
Comments
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Compare Beast of Prey with Unforeseen.
Perk is still a joke lmao.
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Was the Beast of Prey dev note added in error? It still talks about the perk as if it was the release iteration (i.e. only hiding the Red Stain as Undetectable didn't exist yet), which had the cooldown.
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Revert Wake Up. The end. Barely anyone will get mad over the PTB version.
And make Beast of Prey tied to leaving chases, not bloodlust. Keep the PTB numbers, and you're golden.
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We ought to let you cook more often.
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Popping in to address your notes on Beast of Prey in particular, we made a mistake with what was shared in the Dev Update. To be clear, there is no cooldown on Beast of Prey in 8.5.0 (of course, aside from the prerequisite of having to gain Bloodlust) and as mentioned in this thread, the effect you receive is Undetectable.
We've updated the Dev Update copy to fix this mistake (and I'll slowly back into a nearby shrub). Thanks for flagging this to us!
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That makes it much better but still not really the best.
I do hope the feedback about a potential rework for Beast of Prey is still taken as it is since the base effect of Undetectable as a chase perk really does not work that well.
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Oh, don't you worry! We're already looking through early feedback and will be comparing this against feedback we receive once the update's in players' hands :)
Also, to add to what's in the Dev Update, part of the intention behind giving this increased period of Undetectable is to give Killers the option to disengage from an extended chase and surprise another Survivor if they see an opportunity.
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Thought this was the case, seems like a very good perk for killers who want more freedom in disengaging, such as wraiths and xenomorphs.
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I feel like they should remove the bloodlust requirement if they really want this perk to have some actual uses to more killers that barely use bloodlust
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the wake up change is dumb, sorry. novody had a problem with the live version. it seems like you just nerfed a perk nobody uses into the ground for no clear reason.
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If a killer barely uses bloodlust, they either have the ability to break off built into their kit, or deal damage quick enough to not need it
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the classic of niche perks being nerfed lol
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the thing is they will take weeks or months to tweak wake up again. Or they probably will never touch it again…
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Now that this is done... I believe something else needs returning so it makes a little bit more sense on a killer like Huntress who has a massive lullaby….
Back in the day she used to stop singing whenever she was in chase, and this was removed in an unknown patch as it wasnt under any changes or bug fixes in any patches that I can recall (Its been a long time, probably 2019-2020)
Can you confirm that this was an intentional change? Like the POV chase musics also being removed other than the default ones?
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I think with the duration increase, and there not being a cooldown, that this Perk may now be moving in a different direction:
Find a survivor, chase then a little while, possibly hold back on a hit until Bloodlust triggers, get the hit, and disengage using that extended Undetectable state to get the jump on another survivor who may be mispositioned.
(Edit: just read the 2nd Dev comment, so yep)
More favorable for a hit and run playstyle. Might be a good combo with Hex: Face the Darkness (since you're undetectable everyone will scream regardless of distance). Though the need to wait for Bloodlust might cause you to waste more time)
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I edited the post to cross out the old sections since I am aware of the changes.
When I made the post I was referring to the Patch Notes directly and the Patch Notes did not have the right information for the changes. The developers have corrected the Patch Notes and I have corrected my post in response.
I still do think the perk is a bit flawed, more so that the direction it is taking feels more like a “SoloQ Stomper” perk more than anything, mainly since disengaging a chase is easy to call out in a SWF but not SoloQ, but it is a step in a better direction compared to what it was before bc it was outright useless before.
(Of course) my opinion on the Wake Up! changes largely remains the same.
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It's the usual "destroy perks that no one uses for no reason" schtick we are accustomed to. Wake Up has a 1.1% pick rate and they're worried about its impact? Why? Why not leave well enough alone? It's not broken. Don't mess with things that are fine. It's not wrong to open an exit gate 50% faster. How is it greedy, anyways? If the gates are powered, all survivors can win. They're acting like its the same as someone waiting for everyone else to die so they can grab hatch. Stop messing with things that don't need change.
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nobody cares about it's pickrate, it's always a good decision to nuke perks that promote unsportsmanlike kind of gameplay, and this perk has no practical use other than letting your team die to get gate escape.
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Beast of Prey still won't be a good perk. It will be hard countered by SWF. It should just get bloodlust faster or do something else.
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You sound like a killer main who would have gotten that 4K if not for Wake Up.
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Make sure to make the perk charge during the chase so it doesn't get accidental ones because the killer glimpsed a survivor somewhere while doing something else.
Not much, but like… 15 seconds? To keep it in line with Bloodlust.
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Where is the same energy for Sole-Survivor, Self-Preservation, Low Profile, and Left Behind?
All of these perks enable "unsportsmanlike" kind of gameplay, yet no changes or reworks to these perks?
Is Dead By Daylight a team-based game or is it a game that enables all sorts of playstyles? I'd argue team-based but as many people have pointed out from the Steam description —Behavior allows this type of gameplay regardless and these perks need to be reworked as no one hardly uses them due to the selfishness they provide.
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BHVR should nerf all of the perks that encourage survivors to have a selfish playstyle, where the survivor decides before the match has even started, that their strategy is to wait for the other survivors to die, so they can use their "last man standing" perks.
And the Steam description should be reworded, because it should be considered unsportsmanlike sandbagging, when a survivor decides, before the match has even started, that their priority is their teammates dying.
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Perspective is very important. Do you really think BHVR sat down and intentionally designed a perk for players to sit in the corner and ignore the entire match? The storefront description was probably written years ago and hasn't been touched since launch. What reason would they have to edit the storefront page for the base game? New content is delivered to the game through Chapters. I genuinely believe that BHVR's reaction to seeing the store page used as an argument earlier today was "Oh, that's on there? Hmm. Interesting. Didn't know that."
It's more likely that they had a specific use case in mind when designing the Sole Survivor. Most games end with one player alive at the end. Giving that player options and utility gives room for a niche perk. The low perk utilization rate is an indicator that we are spending a lot of time and effort today balancing a low priority issue.
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You can’t police survivor intent and you cannot force them to all fall down for your 4K.
BHVR will never force—implicitly or explicitly—survivors to play in a narrow way. This logic follows suit with how they aren’t forcing killers to abandon a slug/tunnel/camp playstyle.
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There are specific challenges and achievements that require survival, hatch escapes, so on and so forth. One of the hardest achievements in the game is attainable only if you are the last survivor standing in the trial. All of this is intentional.
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This is a good idea, but since it is tied to bloodlust, many killers will struggle to get value from it when playing normally.
Consider making it like this:
- After being in chase for 15 seconds consecutively, Beast of Prey activates
- You gain Undetectable until the chase ends.
- The Undetectable effect lingers for 20-30 seconds after chase has ended, and the perk goes on cooldown during this period
Now it would be much more consistent, and also work on more killers. It would also work better on Huntress which is good since it is her perk.
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That's not the same thing. If survivors start hiding when the killer is slugging for the 4k, they waited until the near end of the game to be selfish.
I'm talking about the people that decide BEFORE the game has even started, that their selfish plan is for their teammates to die. When people equip perk combos like Wake Up + Sole Survivor + Left Behind, the vast majority of the time, it's not for a backup plan. The vast majority of the time, they are doing this because they want to sandbag their team, so they have the highest chances of escaping.
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I stopped reading after “iTs DiFfErEnT” when it comes to killers. You could have saved us both a lot of time by just using those two words.
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The official game rules say killers should do "EVERYTHING IN THEIR POWER" to stop survivors. Does that mean camping and tunneling should never be nerfed, or does it mean people shouldn't be extremely extreme with their text interpretations?
I'm fairly sure BHVR wasn't expecting survivors to literally hide and wait the entire game for their teammates to die, but since this is happening, it should be addressed. And the high escape rates on both Wake Up and Sole Survivor, are implying survivors are trying extra hard (i.e. are sandbagging their team) to make sure they are the last survivor in the game.
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I'm saying it's different when survivors start to be selfish near the end of the game, compared to survivors deciding to selfishly sandbag their team before the game has even started.
I was comparing survivor behavior to survivor behavior.
Post edited by Coffeecrashing on0 -
How many times have you seen that happen, though? My guess is a big, fat "0". Because no one picks it. Because it's a lackluster perk. Y'all keep assuming the worst even when there's no evidence of it, and allow that narrative to destroy stuff that isn't bothering anybody. Having faster gate-opening speed does not directly translate to, "Erm, just let my team die!" It's legitimately the opposite - let me open this quicker so that my teammates can escape!
If I wanted to let my team die to escape, I'd run Sole Survivor, Low Profile, and Left Behind.
Stop demonizing things that don't exist.
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I'd really like if Beast of Prey worked based on duration in chase, like as Wolf Dracula I can't gain bloodlust so I can't even use the perk for my chase builds, that's the part I dislike about it… but then again I can't use snowballs etc in Wolf form either :<
Wake up is just, annoying because remember me just outright gets more value, and whenever wake up would be useful Remember me is probably not in play anyways.
just revert Wake up, it was fine before PTB1 -
faster gate opening speeds are concept that has absolutely no use when teammates are alive, gives absolutely no direct or indirect benefit to the team and is mostly used as your instant go-to way to just prepare for the worst, meaning you are already having a mindset that you will be the last person alive on the trial.
This is not demonizing, this is just objective view of a very flawed and unhealthy perk concept that mostly encourages very bad player mindset and so unhealthy playstyles. Sole Survivor and Left Behind should be the next perks to receive the similar treatment.
On top of everything, it's very concerning to see so many people complain about a perk tweak that is literally a positive change that discourages bad teammate behavior. In fact, it actually reveals the big truth about average survivor player of dbd and re asons behind their and their team losing.
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Faster speed has no use when teammates are alive? The perk literally reveals your aura to everyone else across the entire map. The developers specifically designed it to be helpful for the entire team. Where does this cynical argument even come from?
This perk does not instill an "unhealthy mindset" where people want others to die so they can escape solo. This perk was not designed for the 'last man standing' (again, the 128m aura).
The perk's change is not "positive" because it slaps on an unnecessary prerequisite/caveat for it to even work now. The perk also never encouraged bad behavior (and even if it did, again, 1% of the community used it anyways, boohoo) - you can reference neither personal experience nor seeing video proof online.
"Sole Survivor and Left Behind should be the next perks to receive the similar treatment." It sounds more and more like you are of the mindset that, "If I and everyone else dies, then the last survivor should die too! No escapes!" And you're here pushing the blame on the "average survivor player". Maybe you're the epitome. Just leave perks alone, it's not that hard.
Wake Up does not encourage toxicity. There was nothing wrong with Wake Up's effects. It is not a self-centered perk (did I mention the aura?). There are over 100 survivor perks in the game. It's ok if one of those lets you open gates faster. Why not just consider it a counter to Remember Me, etal.? You'd better butcher Leader too if you're worried about that. And don't forget about Spine Chill and Resilience! We wouldn't want people opening gates 6% faster, right?
The 1% of players who run Wake Up are not ruining the DBD experience for you. You've never even seen it happen, so why argue this at all?
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Faster speed has no use when teammates are alive? The perk literally reveals your aura to everyone else across the entire map. The developers specifically designed it to be helpful for the entire team. Where does this cynical argument even come from?
what's the problem with the new version of perk then? Why is everyone complaining about gate opening speed being 12.5% instead of 50% for the last survivor alive? Perk was reworked to be more of a team perk and it's...bad because of that?
This perk does not instill an "unhealthy mindset" where people want others to die so they can escape solo. This perk was not designed for the 'last man standing' (again, the 128m aura).
again, why are people complaining about gate opening speed bonus for the last survivor when it's even better than live version when more than 2 survivors are alive?
The perk's change is not "positive" because it slaps on an unnecessary prerequisite/caveat for it to even work now. The perk also never encouraged bad behavior (and even if it did, again, 1% of the community used it anyways, boohoo) - you can reference neither personal experience nor seeing video proof online.
you have just confirmed my argument, thank you.
"Sole Survivor and Left Behind should be the next perks to receive the similar treatment." It sounds more and more like you are of the mindset that, "If I and everyone else dies, then the last survivor should die too! No escapes!" And you're here pushing the blame on the "average survivor player". Maybe you're the epitome. Just leave perks alone, it's not that hard.
leave the perks alone? Okay, i'm going to stop vouching for Knock Out and Pentimento tweak too, let's support those two perk in their current state too!
Wake Up does not encourage toxicity. There was nothing wrong with Wake Up's effects. It is not a self-centered perk (did I mention the aura?). There are over 100 survivor perks in the game. It's ok if one of those lets you open gates faster. Why not just consider it a counter to Remember Me, etal.? You'd better butcher Leader too if you're worried about that. And don't forget about Spine Chill and Resilience! We wouldn't want people opening gates 6% faster, right?
Wake Up is Sole Survivor 2.0 and is usually used in combo with that perk. The fact that you are trying to defend it so hard while it's actually a perk that is about the team says everything.
Also, perks are NOT meant to serve as a direct counter toother perks, perks are meant to counter basic aspects of the game. And using Resilience as an example when it's a perk that gives 6% bonus on all action speeds when injured is wild.
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Beast of prey is way better than before imo. Fact that you can activate it while it is already active is kinda funny…
On almost all killers Unforeseen is better, because most killers don't get bloodlust often and it's way easier to activate.
I have tried it and it workes quite well on Legion. Undetectable/blidness perks are mostly useless for Legion, because it disables Frenzy. It's kinda normal for Legion to gain bloodlust and it means you are commiting to chase, which is perfect trigger for him to gain undetectable.
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what's the problem with the new version of perk then? Why is everyone complaining about gate opening speed being 12.5% instead of 50% for the last survivor alive? Perk was reworked to be more of a team perk and it's...bad because of that?
Bro, how are you not getting this? Wake Up was already an unproblematic perk, and a decent enough team perk and therefore this rework was completely unnecessary. It didn't need to be touched. At all. Simple. Just don't touch it. Why would I be ok with 12.5% increments when I can have a flat 50%? And why would I want the effectiveness on my perk to be contingent on, and fluctuate with, the number of people still alive - especially in the era of tunneling? How is that logical? Give me a universal-utility perk over a niche one. How is that wrong?
leave the perks alone? Okay, i'm going to stop vouching for Knock Out and Pentimento tweak too, let's support those two perk in their current state too!
Well considering there's nothing wrong with either of those two perks, that is refreshing to hear. Pentimento is easily dealt with and nobody runs Knock Out (kind of like Wake Up, hmm…). Neither one has an outlandish, extravagant effect on gameplay. You'll live. Stop bothering things that aren't issues.
Wake Up is Sole Survivor 2.0 and is usually used in combo with that perk. The fact that you are trying to defend it so hard while it's actually a perk that is about the team says everything.
Which is it - a team perk or a "selfish" perk? You can't have it both ways. By the way, there's nothing inherently wrong with "selfish" builds, so long as people aren't actively letting others die. And I'm only "defending" the game mechanics from radical change agents like yourself. By the way, no one uses Sole Survivor, either. I can't remember the last time I saw it - as survivor or killer. Wake Up, Knock Out, Sole Survivor - why the hate for unused perks you rarely see?
Also, perks are NOT meant to serve as a direct counter toother perks, perks are meant to counter basic aspects of the game. And using Resilience as an example when it's a perk that gives 6% bonus on all action speeds when injured is wild.
With 200+ perks in the game you're going to eventually run into clashes. Inflicting Blindness with Hex: The Third Seal didn't matter until Windows of Opportunity became meta. Lightborn increased in utility with the advent of Blast Mine and Flash Bang. Survivors struggled with constant aura-reading by the killer until they decided to start using Distortion - which subsequently got butchered in typical fashion. At this point, direct counters are unavoidable. And that's ok. Live and let live. And using Resilience as an example was to showcase the absurdism in your arguments. r/whoosh.
you have just confirmed my argument, thank you.
🤣🤣🤣
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Bro, how are you not getting this? Wake Up was already an unproblematic perk, and a decent enough team perk and therefore this rework was completely unnecessary. It didn't need to be touched. At all. Simple. Just don't touch it. Why would I be ok with 12.5% increments when I can have a flat 50%? And why would I want the effectiveness on my perk to be contingent on, and fluctuate with, the number of people still alive - especially in the era of tunneling? How is that logical? Give me a universal-utility perk over a niche one. How is that wrong?
what was so decent about it being a team perk? No SWF will ever run it because they know it serves them 0 use, and even with extremely low pickrate overall, even soloQ players mainly avoid using it.
And again, if you are so valiant im trying to present it as a team perk, why are you complaining about a literal buff from previous live version? Things don't add up to your argument at all.
Well considering there's nothing wrong with either of those two perks, that is refreshing to hear. Pentimento is easily dealt with and nobody runs Knock Out (kind of like Wake Up, hmm…). Neither one has an outlandish, extravagant effect on gameplay. You'll live. Stop bothering things that aren't issues.
nothing wrong with Knock Out? Nothing wrong with Penti? They are literally also the pinnacle of unhealthy perks in this game, especially Knock Out, which may be useless in SWF where teammates can give their location to the team, while in soloQ you can't do that.
Which is it - a team perk or a "selfish" perk? You can't have it both ways. By the way, there's nothing inherently wrong with "selfish" builds, so long as people aren't actively letting others die. And I'm only "defending" the game mechanics from radical change agents like yourself. By the way, no one uses Sole Survivor, either. I can't remember the last time I saw it - as survivor or killer. Wake Up, Knock Out, Sole Survivor - why the hate for unused perks you rarely see?
selfish builds serve absolutely no benefit for your team, every other kind of perk has some direct or indirect benefit for team.
And what does pickrate have to do with the perk's health?
With 200+ perks in the game you're going to eventually run into clashes. Inflicting Blindness with Hex: The Third Seal didn't matter until Windows of Opportunity became meta. Lightborn increased in utility with the advent of Blast Mine and Flash Bang. Survivors struggled with constant aura-reading by the killer until they decided to start using Distortion - which subsequently got butchered in typical fashion. At this point, direct counters are unavoidable. And that's ok. Live and let live. And using Resilience as an example was to showcase the absurdism in your arguments. r/whoosh.
Hex: The Third Seal was never even close to meta, and WoO is not meta either, it's just a training wheel perk used more as a crutch where ppl avoid learning maps.
Lightborn isn't meta, but people started using it more due to frustration with Flashbang audio bug.
And your attempt to find absurdity of my arguments was…more than terrible.
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