Feedback and Suggestions
Feedback and Suggestions
The "Anti-Facecamp radius" is now the "Camp slightly further away radius"
What is the point of it, if the killer can still camp you, just a couple meters further away, while looking at you?
Just remove it altogether.
Comments
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I can say its probably cause one of your teamate is close but at the same time even if she was not there, yeah its just a waste of a system cause I had a myers proxy camp and its not as far as that huntress in your image.
He was much closer than that i say just 5 meters away from my hook which is crazy yet the bar was not moving an inch.
I am wondering if this thing is more base on the killers terror radius? He did had those 2 annoying add on that makes is terror radius low.
Whatever it is this system was just a complete failure may as well just buff deliverance make you get off hook once for free without having to wait on a teamate to be hooked first like wicked does.
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The point of the anti-camp meter is to prevent a killer from directly camping in front of your face.
Sure, a Huntress can play like how you showed in the clip — at the same time, your team should be doing gens to punish this type of behavior as well. Doing generators near her would suffice to make her stop doing this specific playstyle, as it brings her attention to them and away from you.
It prevents killers such as Bubba from doing the insidious playstyle that many survivors would get upset about. The anti-camp meter is working as intended, but because you're going against a ranged killer who can effectively proxy camp doesn't mean the function doesn't work as intended. Additionally, survivors could hook trade with you if all else fails, but this type of behavior is done because it works and people do not punish this behavior, hence why Huntress is "abusing" it.
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To be fair though even before the worthless anti meter exist it was the same strategy do gen rush but actually it not being there when i think of it was better cause if bubba waste more time insidi camp in basment then on a big map be is toast to try get more kills though those tend to have noed.
Post edited by buggybug on0 -
I disagree, it isn't a failure at all, from a game design perspective it is doing exactly what it is intended to do, and I think it achieves that admirally… and your issue lies in the fact you're only thinking about what the AFC gives you personally, and not thinking about the AFC gives you in terms of all of the survivors as a team, which is a complete counter to camping strategies when used correctly.
You can see this in how different types of players react wildly different to the same feature:
- For more casually minded players, they argue it doesn't really do anything.
- For more competitive minded players, they argue it does way too much to restrict the killer and is a broken feature that should be removed.
So why is there this disparity?
For most survivor casual players, they are primarily focused on a micro scale, i.e. their direct interactions with the killer. Their gameplay goals centres directly on their chases on a 1 to 1 level, and camping gives them a directly negative chance of surviving the game, with no new killer interactions, and thus an overall bad experience.
Survivors with a more competitive minded mindset however are looking at it on a more macro scale, i.e. how this interaction affects the killer's pressure in trial on the survivor team as a whole. A killer who is camping out a survivor on hook has no pressure on the actual trial and gens, and thus the survivors as a group sitting 3 people on gens gain an enormous amount of uncontested progress and very are likely in a winning scenario.
The teams overall chances of survive massively benefits a killer camping a survivor on hook if the survivors use the time the killer gives them.
Well this game isn't comp… you shouldn't be comparing it to comp…
What this means in a nutshell is the reasons you guys believe the Anti Face Camp system sucks, is because it simply doesn't prevent camping (by design)…. and you don't want to be camped. Camping directly negatively affects your individual chance to win, thus semantically there is no real significant difference really for you between being face camped or proxy camped… however that is not the AFC's purpose.
To successfully camp out a survivor, the killer must maintain a distance from the hook, which means when combined with the removal of the hook grab, it is almost impossible to make a scenario where a survivor cannot trade. When survivors are playing the macro game, focusing gens and using the fact this killer isn't pressuring them to camp, the survivors as a team are gaining a massive advantage, getting gens done entirely for free over the 70-140s the camped survivor is on hook… the killer is putting themselves at a massive disadvantage IF the survivors take full advantage of it.
If the survivors as a team work on gens unimpeded, and only move towards hook when the timer is getting close, then due to the distance the killer must remain in range of the hook, they have ample time to make the trade on their terms. If they have further anti camp/tunnel defences (OTR, DS, Blood Rush, Reassurance, Camaradarie, Shoulder the Burden, etc.), they can put the killer even further behind, to the point they are likely looking at a 1k maximum, or 0k due to the killers extreme lack of pressure for such an extended period of time.
Your issue is most SoloQ players don't understand these principles, and do not make use of hook timers anywhere near as much as they should…. but you absolutely can employ these principles in soloQ to great effect, and if you play with these principles in mind, and have a team of SoloQ survivors who understands this principle as well, you will be surprised how much more difficult life is for even strong killer players, even as a SoloQ player.
Why I believe the AFC is great
So to my mind the AFC is a great feature. If you exploit all the mechanisms the game gives you (notably hook timers), you gain a huge appreciation for this feature… tactically thinking about what benefits the killer the most at any given time, and then denying it makes the AFC a very strong feature to play around.
However the double edged sword is you also gain massive contempt for survivors when the entire team comes off gens to get you off hook while you're being camped… if no one is on gens, there is no benefit to the team for you being camped, and even worse, no one is creating a scenario where the killer has to choose between camping or leaving…. and that is extremely frustrating to watch with your yellow auras.
In short, the AFC is a much bigger part of the tactile macro gameplay of DBD, not the direct 1to1 micro gameplay… and as a more tactical player (with meh mechanics), this feature gives me a method to shine in a game where my shoddy mechanical skills let me down ^^
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I mean, the anti-camp meter has helped me directly with a permanent tier 3 Myers camping right in front of my face when it first came out, lol.
But yes, that's why you punish the behavior. I know people like to kill themselves on hook or DC in these situations, but I don't know - I like to waste the killer's time just like they would be by standing around and camping me. Plus, I like to give my team the best chance of survival and in this situation, it's best to just sit there on hook and give your team time to do gens.
Insidious Bubba before anti-camp meter was still strong, especially against solo-queue without any comms. At least now, if someone chose to do Insidious Bubba - you can see him as he's not directly in basement anymore due to the change.
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It's not every Huntress…
…but when 'it' is, it's always a Huntress.
It takes a special type of 🤓 to bend over backwards and go out of their way to discover the radius that they must stand outside of.
AFC was a good idea, but it never works. The bar fills far too slowly to be viable, and doesn't activate at all during Endgame Collapse. Nor does it activate when a killer is chasing or picking up a survivor, but I suppose that makes sense. AFC only works if the killer is standing up against you face-to-face. In other words, it only works if the angry killer is hitting you on hook.
But then, even if you do get to unhook yourself, do you think the killer is just going to let you run off and reset/heal? They'll chase you to the ends of the earth to ensure you get re-hooked. So AFC really only implements you achieving an extra hook stage.
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Yeah, I remember a friend and I about six months ago we were doing a little stat game where we counted what killer we got, if they camped/tunneled, and how many used Pain Res.
In the month of September, we saw a couple Huntresses (6 out of 112) games and we noticed that 4/6 employed a similar strategy such as the video above ^ but it's definitely managable. Especially the ones who do what the video shows but with iridescent head. However, wasting her time and buying your team time will make her move eventually. Either that, or she will just get 1k to 2k max if people pressure gens and recognize that she's trying to snipe people attempting rescues.
Edit: on another note, that's why I like to stay on the hook as long as possible. I like to just unhook myself right before I hit second stage, rather than unhooking right away as again — it wastes their time. I do the same when I'm running Deliverance or any unhooking perk such as Wicked - it's like an adrenaline rush watching them panic as I unhook myself right before second. ☠️ It's all about time management in this game and I would not recommend someone to instantly unhook themselves when a killer is hardcore tunneling or proxy camping.
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I read this entire explanation and I can only understand that you think everyone is supposed to have fun implementing the anti camp strategies every game? If you have not noticed every lost game is due to tunneling and camping which is kinda sad. After the 10th you can't really say gg or even congratulate the killer. He just tunnels one person out and automatically wins and those of us who got no anti tunnel perks or don't want to use anti tunnel perks and second chances every single game just get to suffer because we refuse to participate in a sweaty game everytime. I dunno that is what the reality is. Everyone has to use the same 6 or 8 perks and if they don't they just automatically put themselves into a disadvantage and get no fun out of the game.
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As killer, I've used the anti-facecamp feature to get survivors off the hook when their teammates refuse to save them.
I've had killers do the same for me as survivor.
The AFC feature is good. What's needed is something in the UI that tells survivors the AFC meter is going up (or would go up if they'd stop crouching around the hook staring but doing nothing). I really hate how many times I've died because teammates crouch around stopping the AFC meter from filling up.
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Don't forget that actually if the killer manages to down a survivor next to the hook the timer will never move. No matter if the survivor is in the dying state. If he is next to the hook or nearby the killer gets free face camping with no consequences actually. Overall this system is not doing its job on discouraging killers to camp it just tells them stay like 15 meters away so they dont escape for free is all. And yeah what you said is true. The teammates also get you killed. At this point the killer is not the one who wins the game it is just the survivors giving him the win almost all the time
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If a survivor gets downed near the hook, they need to crawl away. Staying next to the hook in the dying state lets the killer camp two people at once and it stops the AFC meter from filling up. I get really annoyed when I see someone go down next to a hooked survivor and just stay there, and it happens way too often.
The teammates also get you killed. At this point the killer is not the one who wins the game it is just the survivors giving him the win almost all the time
Yup, this is my experience. My teammates are much deadlier than the killer.
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Slugged survivors can crawl away from the hook.
But the reason that a slug by the hook isn't ignored by the system was because it was abused on the PTB. Survivors would run at hooks forcing the killer near the hook and if the killer defends the hook the survivor on hook just got a free escape despite the killer not really camping.
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I appreciate all of you guys sharing your opinions in such a constructive way.
Coming to your considerations, I must say that defining the AFC system "admirable" from a game design perspective is quite an overstatement, as we can clearly see. For instance, as someone already stated, the system seems to be based on the killer's terror radius: I had a Ghostface camping hidden behind a box just inches away from the hook, and the progression bar wasn't moving at all, so no, I do not believe it is a good game design choice at all, and if I were in the development team I would have definitely tackled the problem in a different way especially considering there are killers that do not need to remain close by, like the huntress, to effectively camp and prevent unhooks.
Just some technical aspects: in Unreal Engine (like most of the game engines out there) there is a functionality known as "traces" or "ray cast". You basically get the forward vector of an actor and send a ray for a certain length, and when it hits something you get a pawn or actor as result. This can be then cast to the player controller, in order to determine if the killer is directly looking at a survivor. THAT should be the way to do it, if you want to implement an effective AFC system, which also considers other scenarios: imagine the killer is in another room and he has no immediate, direct access to your hook (for example like it happens in RPD or Lery's). In that scenario, we can safely say he is not camping, but since the walls are quite thin the AFC progress bar fills anyway and you get a free unhook. That doesn't make much sense. It appears quite clear that an hybrid system, which relies on both proximity and traces, is necessary in order to avoid unfun camping as we saw in my video.
So, no, the current AFC mechanic is completely senseless and I don't understand how could a developer team come up with that in the first place. Oh wait, perhaps I do: it's just the most basic, cheap and easy way to implement such a system, but like everything "easy and cheap", it doesn't really work out in the long run.
I therefore stand with what I said in my first post: remove it altogether (or implement it properly).1 -
Hence, the anti FACE camp has prevented the killer from FACE camping. its almost like this is quite literally exactly what it was made it do.
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This is a really well thought out post! Thank you.
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If I play in Solo Queue, I am required to immediately save the person on hook, or else they will attempt the sacrifice process. I do not benefit from increased hook times. The only way I can keep someone alive on hook is if I play Reassurance and force the other player to cooperate and play the match just a bit longer.
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Fair play and thanks for the polite response!
Assuming you're right, that sounds like a bug. The AFC doesn't account for undetectable or the terror radius at all, it is purely proximity, 16m I believe. It does however slow down/pause if another survivor is also within that proximity. This is because in its original iteration, good survivors deliberately looped near the hook to allow an auto unhook for max time efficiency... So maybe that's what you witnessed? However without seeing it, I can't really say.
I was following the PTB when it was originally conceived, and the feature was very carefully balanced to ensure it didn't get affected by multiple floors and did give a brief time frame to kick gens, reload or whatever. It was very carwfully handled and its effect was imemdiate in atopping face-camping without interrupting normal play.
It's entire point is it gives windows to unhook and trade, which it does even when injured or against instantdown killers, which it does absolutely does compared to not having it. It succeeds providing these windows of counterplay as its the entire purpose, and the counterplay is a macro counterplay, not a micro counterplay.... so I'd absolutely call it a triumph.
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You think everyone is supposed to have fun implementing the anti camp strategies every game? If you have not noticed every lost game is due to tunneling and camping which is kinda sad.
Yes absolutely... because it's how the game works... you don't even need to take gen rush and anti tunnel perks, because the principle is this...
If you want to stop a killer from camping and tunneling, you have to make sure it isn't easy for them to do so... how do we do that, what points and principles can we use?
- You have up to 70s to unhook a survivor for each stage... that is about 75% of a gen. The killer needs a reason to leave, and cranking gens is it.
- There are 3 other survivors, the AFC makes it so that even just 1 survivor should be able to trade. Use the HUD, at LEAST 1 person should be on a gen at all times through that hook stage, preferably 2.
- The sooner you unhook a survivor, the faster they can die to tunneling. The hook is the safest place they can be. Only unhook when the killer is far, or when absolutely necessary.
- If you get chased while a survivor is on hook, make sure you take the killer as far away from hook as possible.
- Finally if a survivor is taking the killer away from hook through chase (use the HUD!), ONE survivor should come off gens to go for the unhook.
If survivors follow these principles, tunneling is nowhere near as effective, and camping gets completely smashed.
There are killers like Blight, Billy, Nurse, Spirit, etc who have the map traversal and lethality to be able to effectively tunnel off hook even while pressuring gens and hooking other survivors. That's why these killers are so strong... and in these cases you likely will need perks and powerful items to help you... but against most of the roster you can make tunneling quite unprofitable.
Don't forget that actually if the killer manages to down a survivor next to the hook the timer will never move. No matter if the survivor is in the dying state.
At this point the killer is not the one who wins the game it is just the survivors giving him the win almost all the time
Absolutely yes... this is entirely the fault of the survivor for getting caught near the hook.
And yes survivors are giving killers the win... and this is fine, because if the survivors make a bad mistake that rewards the camp playstyle, that is on them.
I've lost count of the number of times I've been tunneled because my teammates unhook me within 15s, or loop the killer near my hook when I am getting close to losimg a stage... if I'm camped my teammates keep coming off gens to try and help, not realising that by not doing gens and not forcing the killer to choose between me and gens... they are granting the killer the one thing they should be punishing him on, time... by doing so they are signing my death sentence...
I guarantee if you start following these rules, you'll start seeing a massive drop in how effective these styles of play are in your games... you can't stop your teammates screwing it up, but you can at least stop making the same mistake.
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Now that one I'm 100% with you on xD
Leavers are the strongest killers in SoloQ 😭😭😭😭
Nothing says spite quite like Reassurance and STB though xD
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It is 100% a failure now.. It worked differently in the beginning.. but now… like wiggling… its a tool of false hope.. They can Face camp from way further away with their lunge and the time it takes to pull someone off the hook. Trash option totally. Just something so the Devs can claim they did something for Survivor mains and collect a check from this ded ass game.. If the Killer stays close enough to make your heart beat.. they are Hook Camping.. Cheap EZ and requires no skill…
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Very nice imagination but solo que is solo que you either get morons for teammates or very good survivors and about the killer it is 50 50 if its gonna be someone with a brain or not. So sadly even if I follow these principles which should not be a requirement every game for me to think like a ######### competitive champion I will still lose and if I dont use second chance perks I will lose even further so nope sadly the realitiy is much different than your idea of every single solo que survivor being a very smart person and somehow reading minds
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Just increase the range via Kindred
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shrug
It's up to you man. End of the day I'm just another crank on the Internet, it's up to you how much faith you want to have in what I'm telling you and whether or not you want to implement it.
Fact is, there is a reason camping is used in comp games, and a reason the AFC is banned. Yes SoloQ is not Comp, but that doesn't mean anything that applies to comp is completely inapplicable and should be totally discounted by SoloQ players.
You can still adapt comp principles to have a limited application in SoloQ to your advantage, which is what I do regularly, and between the 2 of us, I think its fair to say I am far less annoyed at DBD than you are...
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You are damn right pal. You are damn right. You are less annoyed. If I play survivor I can only see unbalanced ######### and same with killer. I only see survivor friends with 2000 hours being bullies. You are right you got less problems with this game than me. If we had bot killers as option I would always play with a bot than a stupid ass humans. Because 99% of games are toxic survivors and kilelrs camping tunneling being rude being rage baiters. And that is without starting to talk about how some killer powers are just broken and unfairly designed. Like knights guards going through walls, Tricksters stupid spamming of knives, singularity camera spams, xenomorphs power, survivor perks who are literally pay 2 win and have not been nerfed ever because they know they are ######### pay 2 win. It is incredible how much imbalance and unfairness this game possesses
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