http://dbd.game/killswitch
Why do the Quality of Life Changes Feel so One-Sided? (Some Observations!)
I want to say right here firstly that I am a Survivor AND Killer main, I play both sides pretty evenly and have enough hours in both to have understanding of each sides play.
TLDR; I think buffing the base Generator Regression speed from 0.25 charges per second to around 0.5 will help alleviate the pressure which leads Killers to resort to desperate measures. Additionally, taking a page out of 2v8 and slowing down / speeding up generators based on Killer Hooks vs Generators Popped would also be amazingly beneficial.
Generator Regression has been left basically untouched since it was added years ago, while many many perks and items and addons revolving around speeding up Generators have been added, fuelling the disparity even further.
I sincerely hope that these new Anti-Measures REWARD Killers for playing in desired ways, rather than punishing already desperate players wanting to keep up.
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I want to ask, in a non-biased way, why these recent QOL changes all seem to benefit the Survivor side whilst punishing the Killer side?
Anti-Camp, Anti-Slug, Anti-Tunnel. We can all agree that as a Survivor it SUCKS to have one of those things happen to you, but the elephant in the room that seems to be being ignored is WHY Killers are resorting to such desperate tactics?
Well, with some observations, it makes total sense why they do:
• Survivors can progress faster than the Killer can stop them.
Repairing Generators at 1 Charge per second whereas Killers can only regress them at 0.25 Charges per second. 3-4 Survivors repairing at one time, plus toolboxes, plus perks like Deja Vu, Hyperfocus, Steak Out and other Repair speed boosts. PLUS multiple Survivors on one Generator.
• Not only the above, but Killers now have a limit to how much they can regress Survivor progress. But no vice-versa.
The Generator war of attrition is already Survivor-sided with Charge numbers, but on top of this, Killers have a limit to how many times they could potentially reset, whereas Survivors have no limit to resetting via Healing or Repairing.
• While hopefully temporary, it can still take years for metas to change, but regardless, the current Haste meta.
With the new Haste Meta being spread around, basically every M1 Killer and those below mid-B tier cannot catch up to Survivors without bloodlust, with hitbox sizes meaning Survivors hug loops more efficiently, and pallets resetting Bloodlust, the chances of M1 Killers and slower Killers even managing to catch up is slim.
• Anti-haemorrhage Syringes revert ALL gained pressure at the click of a button.
Assume you the Killer have been chasing a Haste Meta Survivor for 5 minutes and finally land a hit, well, at the click of a button the Survivor only needs to wait about 15 seconds before all of that work is reversed.
• Endurance Perks create a safety-net which is used offensively, not defensively.
So, after the Survivor pops a Syringe, you manage to chew through another health-state, and after long last you've managed to catch up to the injured Survivor, you swing, then by pressing a button, the Survivor gains yet another health-state, tanking your hit without any damage, you lose your bloodlust again, and the Survivor gets an additional boost of speed on top of the haste already granted by the current meta.
• Sabotage punishes Killers for trying to do their job
Okay, so you've finally got that down after the Survivor got an extra-life with Dead Hard. About time! You pick them up, making sure you do not get blinded and lose all your progress, when uh-oh, you hear that nightmare inducing clang as the nearest hook hits the floor. You look around, you won't make it to another hook, especially not with the Survivor nearby, ready to stand beneath the other nearest hook to stop you from hooking. So you slug. What can you do otherwise?
It's at moments like this, it makes complete sense to me why Killers resort to camping their hard-fought hook, or down. Against a team of good Survivors, there is practically nothing that a Killer can do to win as the game is, by its numbers, stacked against them, and with these new QOL changes coming soon, it will railroad the Killer into playing in a very linear way, like a bot.
Rather than to force Killers to play in a very controlled way, where they can only take the beating of a SWF without being able to resort to any "scummy tactics" of their own, shouldn't the core of this issue be addressed rather than the result of it?
Why not buff the base Generator regression speed? Why not make body-blocking the hook not a thing? Why not put a limit on how many times Survivors can reset by Healing? It's no fun for the Survivors to be slugged or camped or tunnelled. But it's ALSO no fun for the Killer to be bullied and denied their objective by a coordinated group.
The war of attrition this game provides is absolutely stacked in the Survivors favour. The only perks which do give Killers second chances, like NOED or Devour Hope are Hex Totems which can be destroyed and are disabled for the rest of the game. But Survivor second chances are either Exhaustion based or Boon based, Boons which can be relit infinitely, rather than being destroyed and gone for good, why does this double standard exist?
If you disagree, I'd like to know your thoughts as to why the current direction is fair for both sides!
Comments
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Why? Because nobody is out here saying playing Killer sucks, the Killer is only Role that can completely manhandle another player in very not fun or good gameplay ways. 100% that will have to change into ways that are much more fair to each side.
I don't believe BHVR will intentionally try to screw over their Killer players, its just gonna be harder to do those unfair unsavory tactics which we do from time to time. So long term I don't think you should be worried.
Short-term yeah there may be a patch that gets the version down in a bad way, tho I am more worried about the Go-Next Prevention, cause I bet you if all players never tried to unhook themselves, the Survivors would win more games.
Which probably means Killers need buffs later.7 -
It's fair IMO for the time being but the cycle will continue.
I'd say that most of the Killer roster is already able to play without tunneling, slugging (in an extreme way) and camping - and getting very good results. Maybe not a 4k in every match, but in the vast majority they are able to at least achieve a draw or a 3k, just by experience and game sense.
Sadly many - if not most - players still choose to play in scummy ways with those Killers .. For whatever reason. They will struggle for a while afterwards but eventually get back to the same results as before, just by playing fair.
The rest of the Killer roster, that's currently not able to really compete - and presumably won't be then - will probably see some buffs to fullfill the 60% KR again.
Win/Win so far - Survivors have fair games and Killers got stronger (either by learning to play in a way that's fair and effective and by - assumably - buffs IF KR drops down).
And then everyone will either be happy or the next round of complaints starts that one side is too strong.. Which will probably never end.
Some Killers will - and already do - finish games with a clean 12 hook round (not killing anyone before every Survivor is on death hook) at 3-5 gens remaining and some will barely get a kill in endgame .. Or no kill at all.
Same goes for Survivors.
But at some point nothing will be left to be buffed and it boils down to the point that players just need to improve, which should be made much easier by integrating better information tools and tutorials to the game itself. And a working MMR system.
Still remains to be seen what those changes really are. I hope they're good and strong and force people to improve - on both sides. Looking forward to that
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I'm honestly wary of all those "anti-something" mechanics, Especially the anti-tunnel and anti-go next. There's many ways false positives could happen. BHVR also mentioned that the mechanic would cover people running to the Killer to get hooked again;
What if there's only 2 Survivors left and one is hooked? The Survivor can no longer die on hook to give a chance at Hatch to their teammate or else they are punished? Dying on hook to give a chance at Hatch is arguably the right play in that situation.
What if a recently-unhooked Survivor accidentally runs into a stealth Killer and gets hooked again? Are they punished? Is the Killer punished for "tunnelling"?
What if the Killer tunnels after going back to hook? Does this count as "running to the Killer" for Survivors?
What if a hacker forces Survivors to die on 1st hook (because yes they can do that)? Are Survivors punished?
What if people don't want to play with/against a cheater? They are now forced to deal with it? Cheaters can literally bypass server-closing time!
If hackers can make people lose entire grades/give penalties at-will then what's next?
As sad as it is, I don't think punishing is the way to go. I genuinely believe that rewarding players for sticking out the match/not tunnelling is healthier than punishing. I don't know why, but BHVR seems to forget that the carrot can sometimes get better results (and have less workarounds) than the stick, not to mention receive far less complaints.
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We spent all last year making Killer a LOT better, buffing Killers that needed it, and helping all Killers have some QoL features. It's the Survivors' turn now, they have been neglected too long.
There is in fact an issue with tunnelling, slugging, and camping and they all need addressing. If they affect certain Killers too much, BHVR can buff them to make them not have to rely on these.
As shown many times, sticks alone or carrots alone do not work to stop the issue - buffing perks didn't stop tunnelling, BBQ did not necessarily remove tunnelling, even together they didn't remove it. The only way to stop it is to treat it not as a bad behavior needing punishment or disincentive, but as a flaw or exploit in gameplay that needs to be patched out. That's what the Devs are doing with the "anti" systems, removing the WORST KINDS of it (3genning with perks/powers, facecamping) but allowing healthy pressure that can LOOK like these (proxy camping, pressuring contested gens). That way we can easily see what is and is not fair, what is and is not tactics, what is and is not griefing. Because just because a tactic is annoying to face does not make it inherently a problem - if that were true flashlights and blinding would not exist at all.
I'm hopeful that a working MMR system plus other alternate wincons being considered normal and viable will do a lot to improve the game for everyone. I think that's what the new Quest system is intended for as well - to give you something besides a win or the Grade system to work for. That way even if you lose, you still earn as many BP for finishing a task as you would for a single round, sometimes even more so. This eliminates the sweat of "I gotta get this sort of emblem" or "I need to pip" or "I have to do this specific thing and win this way with this character and these perks", encouraging a healthier playstyle for the game - a more casual one. The desire to winstreak if you want is still there, Grades are there, all those "I want to win and prove how good I am" are still there and nobody is stopping you from that.
The Casualification of DBD is here, and it's not leaving any time soon. I suggest we all embrace it and give feedback on how to improve it or leave for another game if it really ruins it for us that much, because the Devs don't seem to be stopping. All of these changes are here to reflect that the game is heading a more casual direction so everyone can BREATHE a little easier in these rounds. And good riddance to that old sweaty mindset that made so many people quit because it was that uninviting! It just needs to be tweaked and finalized with player input, and not just the old guard but casuals too, in order to finally, FINALLY make this game feel like it's a welcoming and fun atmosphere for ALL players of ALL skill levels. A working MMR system will do wonders for that, especially in keeping the hardcore sweats and "I wanna improve and be the best" types OUT of lobbies with people who just want to play to see how well they can do, with whomever they like best and whatever perks they want.
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I think with Almo gone there's nobody left on the dev team to advocate for the killer experience, to be honest.
It's always the stick instead of the carrot. Killer is a bad man, does stuff I don't like. Punish them. Nobody addresses why a killer has to tunnel or slug from time to time or why that's an important part of their agency. People just see bad thing and want it changed with little empathy.
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They also spent all last year nerfing every single one of the killers most consequential perks into oblivion. Im not really sure taking one step forward and 2 steps back is really progress.
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But you forgot the part where they buffed the weaker Killers' kits to compensate, only nerfing those Killers that were in fact too strong.
People always miss that part.
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They had to put Survivor Bots in public PTB lobbies if that's any indication on how Killer is going.
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they didnt do enough because we ended up with a slug meta as a result to perk and hook nerfs and insanely powerful survivor perks.
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are these insanely powerful survivor perks in the room with us right now
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Hey when there are no killer players left and the game slowly starts dying I hope they don’t start backpedaling. Survivors have been getting little micro buffs for years now. I bet that new anti tunnel will be basekit ds. I will quit if so.
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Maybe phase 3 afterwords will be about balancing generators n stuff
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Kill rate goal won't change, it's always nicer if you can run around like a headless chicken yet still get 4k 60% of matches, and that's the world with every strategies being dead
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I don't see anti-slug having much of an effect on slugging as a strategy, it's slugging to get all 4 down what it's countering/the whole duration of slug.
Slugging to pressure a gen etc will still be effective, even if the survivor can recover, it's not going to be unbreakable speeds, you can just go hit the survivor going for the save/trying to do the gen and go back or commit to the new chase, get them down and the other survivor is still injured and needing to reset.
Anti Tunnel is fine, people still eat anti-tunnel perks to be able to tunnel, if any of those are made baseline killers will still do it if they need to, it just makes the experience more fair and have more agency on the one being singled out, so again it's a non-issue, can just spread pressure instead.
Killers base kick was buffed for gen regression, I've not needed to use Gen slowdown/regression for a while now since the gen speeds were slowed down and problematic gen perks nerfed. I don't think there is an instance I've ever gotten to the cap for gen regression UNLESS I was using gen regress perks.
The games meta is currently formed around snowballing matches, for the easiest win with little resistance and these changes are making it so players don't feel as helpess when said tactics are used.
Killer players will adapt, they always do, not to mention Killer QoL changes have been:
-Perma hook break on sacrifice removed
-6.1.0 base chase QoL buffs (not listing all of them as there was several)
-some of the most problematic maps have been fixed
-Hook Spawns have become more dense
-Gen speeds made slower
-Base Gen Kick was buffed
-End Game Collapse
-Mori finisher system
And we are about to get anti-stealth changes too, and probably buffs to weaker killers down the line too.1 -
In which PTB was that?
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If these changes are too much they can buff Killers to compensate and probably will, because some Killers DO rely on being able to use "dirty tricks" sometimes. That is bad design, and needs fixing. If it affects killrates too badly, they will fix it. They want EVERYONE to be around or close to 60%.
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This doesn't track. If you truly play both sides, and truly care about game balance, of COURSE you're going to speak up when one side feels unbalanced even if that side is unambiguously the power role. Just because the power role is powerful doesn't mean there aren't balance issues or frustrating problems with parts of it that need addressing.
Rather, it seems odd you have implied here that you don't think Killer side should get any sort of help for frustrating parts for THEM. Why not? Why is the game, in your eyes, only allowed to be better for Survivors when the whole game badly needs QoL and is getting it? Why do you seem so upset that people are asking for the side they prefer to simply be less frustrating? If we are all allowed to say that Survivor side needs fixing, why can we also not say Killer side needs it?
I guess I just don't understand your logic here, do you truly think that the ENTIRE Killer player base is so entitled that they just want to win super hard? Or is this frustration that Survivor hasn't gotten enough in your eyes? What is driving you here?
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but what if you find the person that was just unhooked are you just supposed to let them go? being punished for their mistakes shoudnt be a thing. But ig only time wil tell
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Because the thing people want to try the most in PTBs are new killers, there's not really much worth playing survivor in PTBs as the gameplay is the same. Naturally if 90% of people are trying killer then theres a shortage of survivors so the bots make sense rather than waiting 20mins for a killer game. There's never been a killer shortage in a PTB.
This isnt an indication of anything at all for the game itself, just a lopsided preference for testing killers over survivor perks in PTB.
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Slugging to pressure a gen etc will still be effective, even if the survivor can recover, it's not going to be unbreakable speeds, you can just go hit the survivor going for the save/trying to do the gen and go back or commit to the new chase, get them down and the other survivor is still injured and needing to reset.
no matter if it's Unbreakable recover speed or not, you are nullifying killer''s slug pressure. If killer goes too far from the slug, they are punished hard, if they bait someone to come a slug, they are punished hard.
Anti Tunnel is fine, people still eat anti-tunnel perks to be able to tunnel, if any of those are made baseline killers will still do it if they need to, it just makes the experience more fair and have more agency on the one being singled out, so again it's a non-issue, can just spread pressure instead.
Anti-tunnel is abnormally strong nowadays and it makes tunneling as a high tier killer difficult, while making tunneling as a mid-low tier impossible (in an era where it's also impossible for those killers to do anything if they are forced to spread hooks).
Spreading hooks is literally the outcome every team wants, spreading hooks is literally handicapping yourself as the killer, further anti-tunnel buffs are completely unnecessary.
Killers base kick was buffed for gen regression, I've not needed to use Gen slowdown/regression for a while now since the gen speeds were slowed down and problematic gen perks nerfed. I don't think there is an instance I've ever gotten to the cap for gen regression UNLESS I was using gen regress perks.
reasons why it seems like you "don't need to use" slowdowns in pubs are not technical, those are results of complete flaws in survivor plays around wasting your time and managing to do gens. Good luck playing without any kind of gen slowdown perk against actually good teams.
Is it true that victory is completely achievable with gen kick limit tho? Yes it is.
The games meta is currently formed around snowballing matches, for the easiest win with little resistance and these changes are making it so players don't feel as helpess when said tactics are used.
snowballing meta rn relies on survivors to make chained mistakes tho.
Killer players will adapt, they always do, not to mention Killer QoL changes have been:
-Perma hook break on sacrifice removed
-6.1.0 base chase QoL buffs (not listing all of them as there was several)
-some of the most problematic maps have been fixed
-Hook Spawns have become more dense
-Gen speeds made slower
-Base Gen Kick was buffed
-End Game Collapse
-Mori finisher system
hook respawns didn't do anything other than reducing slugging due to killer being in a hook deadzone.
base chase QoL buffs didn't really make it better for weak-mid killers because further new survivor releases overshadowed them.
regarding maps, Eyrie is still very problematic, Autohaven maps are bugged for quite some time now (they spawn more pallets than they are supposed to), Garden of Joy is still very strong.Those maps + Midwich and Haddonfield need to be brought even.
More dense hook spawns really don't do much in a meta where survivors force downs way away from 3-gens and other beneficial zones for killers.
Gen speeds are slower, while splitting gens is as easy and oppressive as it was.
Base gen kick is okayish now ig.
EGC doesn't really benefit killers at all.
Mori finisher is just an aesthetic change, it doesn't really benefit killers either.
And we are about to get anti-stealth changes too, and probably buffs to weaker killers down the line too.
we are NOT getting anti-stealth changes (nor we should), we are simply getting changes against survivors that just stealth and do nothing
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I wish BHVR had the same attitude for survivor buffs as they do for killer buffs.
Because if it’s fine to “just buff weaker killers” instead of helping all killers, then the upcoming quality of life changes should only go to the weaker killers (solo q), instead of helping all survivors (SWFs).
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We are forgetting that bhvr has a killrate target.
If killers will be underperfoming, they will get buffed accordingly.
We need to give them time and benefit of the doubt on this.
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doesn't nurse underperform when looking at kill rates? are you looking forward to nurse buffs
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The DBD forums are an echo chamber like reddit. The survivor mains here will deny. They want you playing like a bot and being an m1 killer chase simulator.
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as much as many people say, tunnel and camping is not a desperate measure… its efficient, and as long as behaviour keep buffing survivors, it will remain that way… the killer NEEDS something that rewards him with MORE power from not tunneling and camping as basekit, not perks. The killer gains NOTHING by playing the good non tunneling guy in a match, which means that there is NO advantage to play like that. Its almost like your boss from work paid exactly the same for you going or not to work, but he will look at you with an ugly face if you dont go everyday… It doesnt matter that the workspace is beautifull, i will not go to work if i receive the same ammount sleeping… but if i gain more by working harder, NOW i am going serious mode.
almost every killer main already accepted that the game will hold the survivor hands and allow then to bully the killer to oblivion, while changing the game whenever a survivor sheds minimal tears… Do you really think that a full on killer main cares for a survivor happiness in the game when they bully then 24/7?
i am a full killer main and nothing gives me more dopamine than making a survivor rage quit… And i will have mercy on then on the same day that a survivor kill themselves on hook because they looped a killer for too much time and the killer deserves a fair game.
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