http://dbd.game/killswitch
updated tentative ghoul update, from ghoul mains!
hello again! its me bnork once again id like to have a discussion about kaneki, after the QNA today it was mentioned that kaneki is indeed on the horizon for an update after more feedback is gathered, which is perfect! and we really appreciate you not rushing this one. and because of this id like to once again post my kaneki update suggestion, after talking to several kaneki players, especially those who are well known on the character, and even discussing these changes with people who adamantly do not like the character, and after the conversation we all came to the conclusion that this version of the character would be better for almost everyone, drastically increasing his skill-floor, rewarding his skill ceiling much more, and increasing counter play across the board, aswell as adding quality of life for both sides! the goal here is really to help everyone enjoy the character more and i know alot of people are very, very passionate about this, so id love to share our ideas with you! lets get into it!
- Completely removed the ability to vault using Kagune Leap
i know this might come as a bit of a shock to some players, but after vetting it with a lot of kaneki players, AND people who adamantly dislike him, the vault is the single biggest thing stopping kaneki from being enjoyed across both sides. the vault offers far to much lethality for how easy it is to use, it can occasionally feel like a constant 50/50 that's significantly easier to do, then to counter. i'd also like to mention that i simply don't think the high skill expression the character offers can ever be fully realized so long as you have the option to forgo risk and simply opt to vault. its a flawed game-play loop for both sides, as ironically when survivors are very confident countering the vault, the strength switches hands quite heavily, so kaneki's power budget is all placed into a vault that severely punishes newer and less confident players, and becomes almost powerless against better players. this mechanic simply cannot be balanced and i think the healthiest version of the character would simply not have this mechanic at all.
- Reduced the maximum Range a Grab-attack can be triggered to 8 meters
once again lowering the ease of use of the other part of kaneki's power, i don't think the Grab-attack injury would be as obnoxiously strong as it is now, if the Range the attack could be triggered was lowered, a hit-scan attack with 14 meters of range is simply overkill. this allows the system to remain intact, keeping enraged, prevents extreme cases where your sniped completely around walls or obstacles because he triggered the attack before you rounded the corner. and increases the skill component exponentially. this would simply require kaneki players to position far more intentionally to get this attack off, without significantly lowering the strength of the ability!
- Reworked the forced cool-down system into a "power disable"
this change might seem a little bit random but allow me to explain, kaneki's token drain system(the system that forces him into a cool-down upon a broken pallet) seems to be rather buggy, and becomes consistent through the recent patches, on release it drained one token consistently, which worked but dis proportionally effected non-enraged mode as enraged mode has a 2.5 second recharge for a single token recharge, so shortly after the drain was made to drain 2 tokens. making enraged mode a 5 second penalty. this worked nearly perfectly, but now non-enraged was an 8 second penalty, completely overkill. so. finally, i was made so that one token is drained when not enraged, and two are drained when you are enraged, perfect! almost. the problem is that it was also made so that when you were actively recharging, the system wouldn't effect you. nullifying its existence entirely. in the current patch we've also made a completely reversion to the first iteration of the system through a bug. history lesson aside, i think implementing a power disable(much like the trickster after using main event) would be the perfect way to make this system work flawlessly, and be a consistent balancing number, so if needs be, it can be adjusted in the future, aswell as giving survivors a consistent number of seconds before they need to worry about your power. the current system is far to inconsistent to counter, as the system varies drastically.
- Reworked the following add-ons - Yamori's mask, Red headed centipede, iridescent Eye-patch
because we removed the vault as a mechanic, centipede and eye-patch would need reworked as they system they hinge upon no longer exists. Yamori's mask however, is a terribly overtuned addon in its current state, kaneki is almost always enraged, so the information is constant, screams are a unique form of information as they cant be countered with iron will, or even off the record, the only counter is calm spirit, which doesnt get used. and even more unhealthy then the constant information, the screaming mechanic also interrupts actions, meaning dead mans switch will always activate, blocking a gen, or totem builds with thrill of the hunt, will almost always force unfun situations where the killer is given free, unreasonable lethality throughout a game because of ONE addon, that is incredibly easy to trigger. my friend beerey came up with this rework, which im personally very fond of!
Yamori's Mask
-Decreases Enraged Mode duration by 50% of its current amount.
-After hooking a survivor, the following effects are granted to The Ghoul for 25 seconds after going outside a 48 meter range from the hooked survivor:
- Increases terror radius to 48 meters.
- Increases maximum Kagune Leap range to 20 meters.
- Increases maximum Kagune Leap movement speed by +4 m/s.
- Decreases recharge time for Kagune Leap tokens by 30%.
- 4 seconds are added back to the timer every time The Ghoul performs a grab-attack, but this bonus will never let the unique timer go above its initial amount.
-These effects automatically end once The Ghoul downs another survivor.
alright, so this concludes the nerfs and reworks section, naturally these changes alone would leave him alot weaker then he deserves to be, so lets compensate him with a handful of well deserved buffs! aiming for rewarding his skill-expression, lowering his reliance on certain add-ons, and making the killer feel alot smoother to play!
- Increase Kagune Leaps range to 16 meters(was 14)
I'm sure no one is surprised to see this, as even people who supported this change early into kaneki's balance direction have grown to regret this nerf. for those that don't know, on release kaneki had this range base-kit, but it was shortly nerfed down to what we have now, at 14. to be blunt 14 meters just feels incredibly sluggish and unresponsive, things that should clearly be within your ability to grapple onto are just slightly to far from you, making chases feel very unresponsive and bad, ironically though, this had NO effect on kaneki's map presence and control, which im positive was the intention. as this change has aged poorly, and as we've given him more then a few nerfs to compensate, i feel its a good time to revert this change, and return the range to 16 meters.
- Decrease Kagune Leaps minimum leap range to 3 meters(was 5)
for those unaware, the Kagune Leap also has a minimum leap range, which is a range you have to be AWAY from something to latch onto it, in practical terms this means you have to back away from certain parts of the environment in order to begin leaping. once again this feels incredibly clunky from the killers perspective, and somewhat confusing from the survivors perspective as well because its not very clear why the ghoul would be backing away from an obstacle it would seem perfectly reasonable to grapple onto though. the number being 5 meters is simply too much. i can acknowledge the reason this system exists though, so decreasing this number would add some fluidity to his kit, and decrease alot of frustration.
- Added the effects of "fresh coffee" and "kaneki's satchel to the basekit"
in his current form, kaneki is very reliant on the extra 14% movement speed to consistently outplay tiles, the base speed is very slow, aswell as the majority of kaneki players running this addon anyway, i see no reason it shouldn't be added to the basekit. as for satchel, the ghouls final leap will never slide, meaning its useful-fullness for mobility is significantly lower then any leap that does, meaning its main use-case is for bodyblocks, i feel the extra speed given from satchel would increase his chase potency and once again relieve some add-on reliance.
- Decrease the additional fatigue from a "Kagune swipe" to 2.25 seconds(was 2.5) and Decrease the movement speed penalty to 1.15 meters(was 0.92 meters)
so, this change might seem a little random, but id actually like to explain this! if you grapple directly onto a survivor, with your first leap, or any leap onto a marked survivor, causes them to scream, and become interrupted, if timed well you can actually deny a survivor a vault prompt, and get a down. the problem however is that grappling onto a survivor this way creates a much, much more steep recovery time then normal. i feel a 2.5 ontop of a 0.92 movement speed penalty is massively overkill. increasing these numbers slightly, while still keeping them higher then an average fatigue time keeps the counter-play rewarded, punishes improper plays, and makes proper plays still feel all the more better.
this does it for my updated change log! i hope i was indepth enough and explained all my points fairly. and clearly. im very passionate about this character and would love to see these changes implemented. i truly think kaneki is a diamond in the rough, and if balanced properly he could be as fun to verse as he is to play. i once again thank you all for taking the time to read through these! please upvote if you can so the devs have a higher chance to see these, and too show support! thanks again!
Comments
-
I think the main point of the Ghoul frustration is mainly the catch up-cancel to instant m1. I don't think the vaults are the problem, I would even buff his base leap speed and range. But the cancel needs some tweaks. I literally M1 someone and catch up to him 2s later cancel straight behind him and m1 him again. Injure and down in 5s, across 24m. The deep wounds can go too. And people who say, but Made for this… MFT makes you run cross map 1.5s faster, it's not counter. And if someone tells me that cancel is skill expression, it's not. It's same like pressing m2 to deploy drone with chess merchant.
-2 -
Phenomenal suggestions yet again! One thing I don't see happening, however, is them completely removing vaulting since Kaneki has special animations for that and BHVR have stated in the past that they'll never completely remove special animations or mechanics that they've already put work into, as that would be a waste of resources (this is why they changed Billy's Overheat into Overdrive, instead of removing the mechanic completely).
I would suggest the time it takes for him to vault in enraged mode would be the same as when he's not enraged, essentially giving him a slightly weaker version of Wesker's vault, which should be perfectly balanced as it only has the potential to outplay some god-pallets.1 -
thank you! i appreciate the kind words and criticism! i think in a world where we need to keep the vault as a mechanic, i think first leap vaults should be the priority for removal, and then you can do a vault action on the second or third, another possible outcome is removing the ability to vault over pallets, but maintaining the ability for windows. i think reducing the speed just leaves it in a spot where its weak, but cant be buffed. but i see your point of view
2 -
i dont agree to be honest! the 2 second fatigue allows kaneki to play tiles, preform bodyblocks, and yes, have presence throughout the map. there's typically no time where kaneki landing directly behind you should result in a down if you positioned properly. the vault simply pressures the survivor to much to be allowed to remain in its current state, and is far less counterable then the fatigue time. a killer without a direct ability to down must have a short fatigue to remain lethal, increasing the cancel cooldown would kill the killer, and is simply something that should never be done.
-2 -
So I like the idea of these changes but I think these would kill the character. As a ghoul hater myself, I believe the changes that should happen is make vaulting in enrage the same speed as vaulting when not enraged, fix his bugs, remove the kidnap tech (which isnt a bug weirdly), make the manual canceling longer and make his power projectile rather than hit scan.
2 -
i couldnt agree less to be honest with you, kaneki would be far more rewarded for correct plays aswell as being enabled to do so, making the vault slower depletes the reason for its existence, as it becomes pointless in chase, making the Leap a projectile is something theyve already stated felt terrible during testing, and i have reason to believe them on this. these changes would not kill the character, he may ironically be the strongest he ever was in the hands of someone good at using his power in chase.
0 -
Good changes
- Increase Kagune Leaps range to 16 meters(was 14)
- Decrease Kagune Leaps minimum leap range to 3 meters(was 5)
- Reduced the maximum Range a Grab-attack can be triggered to 8 meters
Unsure change
- Reworked the forced cool-down system into a "power disable"
Bad changes
- Completely removed the ability to vault using Kagune Leap
There is no need to do that. I don‘t like parts of other killers powers as well, but do I ask to remove them? No! They can nerf the numbers a bit even tho it isn‘t needed. It was already a shame that chucky got his scamper removed, when all he needed was starting the cooldown after scampering a pallet and making it a bit slower outside of slice and dice.
- Reworked the following add-ons - Yamori's mask, Red headed centipede, iridescent Eye-patch
Eye-patch agree, this addon is useless. The other two are perfectly fine.
- Decrease the additional fatigue from a "Kagune swipe" to 2.25 seconds(was 2.5) and Decrease the movement speed penalty to 1.15 meters(was 0.92 meters)
Other killers can down with their power directly, which is why he has a short cancel. He would suck with this change and feel terrible to play. Not everyone wants to play bodyblock ghoul.
- Added the effects of "fresh coffee" and "kaneki's satchel to the basekit"
Coffee is a very strong addon and should not become basekit. For satchel I‘m open, because the third leap doesn’t have much of a purpose, but this buff isn’t needed.
Nerfs that I think he deserves- Kidnap tech nerfed by reducing the time survivors can‘t move after vaulting a pallet. This is probbaly the biggested frustration people have when playing against him.
- Reducing the hitscan hitbox by a little bit would make him more difficult to play and give survivors more counterplay by leaping to something when you miss. My only real problem with him is the free injury.
- Reduce the time he has to start another leap from 5 to 4-3seconds.
Post edited by Langweilig on-3 -
Its not a matter of not liking the vault, it's a matter of the vault being impossible to balance properly like I said underneath. If you decrease the speed the ability becomes pointless, the ability can already be countered if the players know how to verse it, that doesnt stop it from being annoying and unintutive to counter. The only variant that would still be a worthwhile change is removing first leap Vaults, and still allowing him to vault with the subsequent two. But even that's a trivial change as the other two are so easy to counter that it would only be useful against bad players. And the scamper comparsion is exactly why it should go.
As for your other critisms i couldn't disagree more. If you aren't playing kaneki for bodyblocks, or catching up in chase, you're only playing him to vault over obstacles, which i dont think is a mechanic that's healthy or skillfull. That's like not wanting to play "bump logic blight" so you just brutal everything. Mask and centipede are nearly objectively not "fine" and I urge you to learn about how unhealthy these addons are.
I think you dont think you fully understand all the changes and what im asking for the character to be transformed into, which is okay!
0 -
I love your thought and suggestions 💯 !
My biggest gripe is the canceling power mid leap. (IMHO)
Your suggestions though would certainly by itself make him less frustrating and less stressful to go against.Post edited by MechWarrior3 on-1 -
The vault currently is fine, except kidnap tech which is a bit overtuned. Survivors can easily outplay it on most structures if they play it right.
The vault being impossible to balance is simply untrue. There is nothing wrong with it only working at stronger tiles when you make it slower, but it is fine at the moment.
As for your other critisms i couldn't disagree more. If you aren't playing kaneki for bodyblocks, or catching up in chase, you're only playing him to vault over obstacles, which i dont think is a mechanic that's healthy or skillfull
I play kaneki for all his tools, not just one thing. I like all his abilities. I said nowhere that I only play him for the vault. It also doesn’t matter that you think it is not healthy or not super skillful. Most abilities in dbd don’t require much skill and the healthy argument is only used by people that don‘t like stuff. It has 0 weight.
The bodyblocking is insanely clunky to use, so your comparison is completely stupid. If it was an intended mechanic, behavior would have polished the power to use it that way, but it is nothing the devs thought of while creating him. Otherwise it wouldn‘t suck trying that on console, which is why I don’t do it.
Finally there is nothing unhealthy about those two addons. I don‘t even use them. As for the window blocker. Bambuzle is way better in every way and gives you vault speed as well. The mask already got nerfed after which I stopped using it. According to your logic BBQ and bambuzle are u healthy perks.
I understand what you want for him, but have you maybe thought about other people???? Not everyone wants your version! I‘m not against nerfing him and making him more difficult to play by giving survivors more counterplay, but he doesn‘t need a new identity and a complete change of his gameplay.
0 -
Im gonna be honest I was gonna have a good faith conversation with you, but considering you've undermined everything I've said, called me stupid, and said the vault in its current form is "fine" I have no interest in continuing. You dont even fully understand the points your arguing against. I debunked the bbq argument in the section about the addon, so it's unlikely you even read everything i said anyhow. Thank you for your thoughts though.
-2 -
the irony when killer mains suggest a killer change, is that they almost always pretend they're being reasonable by nerfing the killer slightly, then asking for several more buffs which would make the killer just as bad if not worse to play against. Kaneki needs 0 buffs whatsoever and only nerfs. He needs a bigger cooldown when he cancels his power and when he leaps over vaults since he both slows the survivor and vaults very quickly and can hit you almost immediately afterwards. also, the first free hit should require him to aim instead of being an aim bot.
you can't greed pallets or he just M1's you. you can't pre drop or he just fast vaults and downs you. you have to stun him like a legion stand off and pray he's too stupid to back up a foot when you drop the pallet. basically, it requires the survivor to have several times more skill than the Kaneki to even stand a chance to prolong the chase. currently a moderately competent kaneki can turn any god loop into a 50/50 where the survivor has to get a stun or will get downed after the first free hit. it's broken BS and needs a heavy nerf with no buffs whatsoever to compensate.
fortunately, in practice most Kaneki players are very bad mechanically at playing the killer since like most Blight players, they main the killer to tunnel for easy 4K wins with minimal effort. the only reason kaneki is not currently as oppressive as Nurse and Blight despite Kaneki requiring far less skill to learn, is that Nurse/Blight players have had thousands of hours to master abusing their mechanics to their full potential. whereas most kaneki players are only semi-aware of how to abuse his broken mechanics so if you're a seasoned survivor you can punish their ignorance when in principal the Kaneki should never lose.
lastly, putting lots of exclamation marks and spamming the same convoluted descriptions in multiple posts does not make those changes a good idea. in general BHVR overthinks killer changes and reworks way too much when all that is needed is a nerf to their speed to make their OP cheese tactics less effective, leaving less room for error for the killer. survivors in general are expected to be God tier loopers just to escape against mediocre average skill killers, which makes no sense in a PvP but not much I can do about it.
-3 -
The cancel cannot be removed without killing him. Unless you make his power able to down
0 -
i nerfed nearly every element of his kit. his vault is completely gone, his grab-attack is significantly worse. 3 of his most problematic add-ons got completely reworked. and his pallet break would be a consistent 5 seconds of breathing room. i think thats more then reasonable to suggest one addon he uses every game to be basekit, another niche addon aswell, a range reversion, which is barely a buff and more of a reversion, and a small quality of life change in the form of minimum leap distence being decreased by 2 meters, aswell as a 0.25 second buff to an already naturally higher input fatigue. this weird conclusion you've jumped to is incredibly weird, and you clearly don't understand game design or balance. please dont put words in my mouth again.
-1 -
it's just way too complicated a solution for no reason. the #1 problem with Kaneki is the Scenario 2 BS in the graphic in that link:
Asking for clarification in terms of yesterday's revelation about Ghoul — BHVR
Slow down his ability to jump over a pallet and smack you immediately and the killer is fixed. it's currently uncounterable if the Kaneki knows what they're doing. Most of the problems with killer balancing in Dead by Daylight are extremely easy to fix and don't require massive reworks, as the survivor simply needs a bit more time to have viable counter play. Kaneki is one of them.
0 -
This is another alternative I would be very happy with and one I've been in full support of for a while now! I even prefer it over nerfing the vault speed, but we'd have to see how it would all work out, though it'd be much better than what we have now. Only issue I see with it is that it wouldn't do much for kidnap tech, so I'd hope BHVR would approach that problem separately.
0 -
I didn‘t call you stupid, only your comparison with blight.
If you aren't playing kaneki for bodyblocks, or catching up in chase, you're only playing him to vault over obstacles, which i dont think is a mechanic that's healthy or skillfull. That's like not wanting to play "bump logic blight" so you just brutal everything.
There you make assumptions of me that are not true while calling me indirectly skillless. I‘m not using him only for vaults and you compare a mechanic that is super easy to use (blight) with one that is super buggy and clunky (kaneki). If the devs would make it easier to play for body-blocks I would do it, but I don‘t want a complete identity shift for kaneki like you do want one. About the other things we disagree isn‘t it possible that other people have different opinions and isn‘t their opinion valid as well or only yours?!
0 -
you're putting alot of words in my mouth
-1 -
Can be easily removed and serve as catch up power and remained antiloop
-1 -
once again.. its peak! I believe making Kaneki's main playstyle being cut-offs is significantly more interesting than just pulling power out at every vault, or pallet. I do believe however that he should have an entire add-on pass, since a lot of his add-ons are just underwhelming or just.. perks recycled into add-ons, so I like that you included Coffee and Satchel base-kit because if they were to do an add-on pass and rework every one, it would feel a lot more freeing and customizable.
What really matters though is if the player base is gonna be mature enough to (theoretically) try against these changes instead of continuing to DC against Ghoul every match, despite the nerfs.1 -
I think a lot of this is okay but I do feel like the fatigue duration after ending the power needs a slight increase as well (but only slight, no more than +0.5 seconds). It is a part of his power which can offer a decent amount of skill expression so I don't want to nerf it too much, but in my opinion 2 seconds is simply too little of a window for survivors to have a realistic chance in a lot of cases. Even just 2.5 I think would help a lot.
Obviously removing the vault would be a big change but I'd agree if something is to be removed from his kit altogether then it should be this, it's the least interactive and least skillful component of his power and removing it also immediately eliminates the pain points around kidnap and its awkward counterplay.
I agree that reverting the power range to 16m is probably fair compensation for removing the vault (although maybe Handkerchief should get reworked then, idk if >16m should be a possibility again). I wouldn't agree with Coffee becoming basekit though.
But overall I like most of your suggestions, this is a good start.
edit: also want to add that the CCG ID Card addon would also need to be reworked, as removing the leap vault makes it obsolete
-3 -
Yeah I completely forgot about ccg card, I appreciate you being respectful about your disagreements. I dont think an increase to his cancel fatigue should ever happen. 2 seconds exactly enough time to reward a well placed series of Leaps with an m1. Increasing it ironically would be a much more damning nerf then the vault. You would eliminate all skill expression. As for my suggested buffs, I dont entirely view the range buff as a buff, and more of a reversion to a nerf he never really deserved. As for coffee, I think the fact that nearly 90% of ghouls you run into are using the addon, indicates it's either overtuned(its not) it's making up for a flaw in his kit. I think making it basekit is almost required if we were to remove the vault, and severely hinder the grab-attack.
-2 -
Yeah I actually completely agree with an addon pass, if I had more time(or was a bit more creative) id likely have written up a fully fleshed out addon pass, but regardless you're completely right!
1 -
yeah, that's exactly what this killer needs.
0 -
any nerf you make to fatigue duration disproportionately hurts skill ceiling more than it increases skill floor.
-1 -
oh no kaneki having slightly more range to grab environment or having smaller range to start the grab will make him so much worse than scamper and long range hit scan grabs
-2 -
Grab attacks should be removed completely regardless of how much would have to be done to make up for it, free injures are never healthy
2 -
Delete it. Problem solved.
-1 -
Thanks for sharing your ideas, I agree I do like some of the ideas here focusing more on his skill ceiling. I feel that this would be a better direction to experiment with until it feels right.
0 -
Ghoul's whole chase lethality, if you neglect power vaults of course, comes from the 2 second cancel cooldown, make it any higher and you effectively strip away his whole identity.
Dash Killers usually have higher cooldowns on their powers because they can down DIRECTLY with them like Blight for example who has a 2.5 sec miss cooldown. The main outlier is Vecna who has a 2.75 sec fatigue after ending Fly even if he cannot hit survivors directly while using it and that's because the spell itself is not meant to guarantee downs, Mage Hand and Flight of The Damned are meant for that.
Not to mention that a higher cancel cooldown for Ghoul would still not help survivors in scenarios where they literally have no resources near them, similar to every dash killer in the game.
Also a lot of people seem to be unaware of the fact that pressing the 'cancel Kagune Leap' button while Ghoul is leaping makes it so he enters the fatigue only after the dash itself ends, not during it.
You're never meant to be holding W against Ghoul in chase if his power isn't on cooldown, you're forced to play and stick by the tile, and then hold W if the Ghoul player either misplays or if they decide to break a pallet which puts their power on cooldown.
By the way, Made For This does make a big difference if you're deep wounded against Ghoul. But of course that's only the case if you're in a tile as survivor and not in the middle of nowhere.
Oh and one last thing, Ghoul's power vaults just lead to extremely boring gameplay on both sides. It's obnoxiously strong, especially by taking kidnap-tech into the equation, if the survivor doesn't know how to directly counter it (you literally need to go on Twitter and search for counterplay), and when the survivor does know how to counter his power vault, it practically becomes useless if Ghoul isn't both in Enraged mode and using his first leap to latch onto a survivor and vault a pallet, which is also unhealthy and skilless design.
0 -
Meant to stick on tiles and play them unless the ghoul immediately breaks the pallet which does not drain tokens while the power is recharging, then they swing to your position when you have the temerity to try to get away, cancel their power on your ass and just down you anyway because you do chases with ghoul with one health state.
0 -
Which is literally what this update is meant to address, power disables no matter what after you break a pallet, which would preferably be somewhere around 5 seconds.
0 -
the amount of retuning and redesigning you'd have to do in order to make this a practical is a terrible idea. the injury while currently free causes an very long cooldown before you get the power back, leading to a long time of breathing room. the amount of buffs youd need to give him in order for him to be strong enough to deal with a chase with two health states would lead him to being equally obnoxious.
there's also something i should elaborate on, as its not directly stated in the post. removing the vault, and reducing the range would inject intentional counterplay into the ability, as he cant vault over an obstacle anymore, meaning if your playing a resource well, you theoretically wouldn't get injured. removing the grab-attack is simply an identity shift that should never happen.
0 -
Literally all you would have to do is remove it and replace it with something else. Sure the injury has a very long cooldown, that makes it balanced, not well designed. No reason to believe he would have to become equally obnoxious either, how much more obnoxious could you realistically get than a free injure? If they just made the way to get an injure the same as the way to currently get a down, buffed it a decent bit to keep him reasonably strong, he'd 100% be more fun to vs than he is now. Just as strong =/= just as obnoxious.
0 -
there's every reason to assume it would be more annoying, if you were to remove the system in its entirety, but i digress. if you were to replace the system with a stance swapping projectile or something, i dont see why you couldn't do that. but i dont entirely see the point. getting rid of the injury as a mechanic gets rid of enraged as a mechanic, dulling him down, and gets rid of the mark, which gets rid of prompt stealing, and assuming you still want to get rid of the vault. the only realistic tuning nob would be reducing the the cancel cooldown, which depletes the necessity to leap properly as the cooldown would be so short it would be realistically unreactable. once you nerf the bite range, and get rid of vaults. there's no reason to touch this mechanic anymore. doing so would largely be because the person doing it doesn't like the mechanic, and not because it needs a change.
0 -
For the example of a stance swapping projectile you gave and whatever else, why couldn't that then just apply the mark and then you get to keep enraged mode and everything else? In the alternative (or potentially combinable? idk) case of focusing on the way he currently downs as means for both health states, he could have a new special attack that can be charged after the leap finishes, say with 1.6ms movement speed and 2 seconds (or in the case of buffing it, a bit lower) charge time and a duration/ms matching that of a lunge. This would effectively mimic the effect of having a cancel cooldown a bit shorter 2 seconds without making him faceroll, since you would still have to have gotten close enough to get away with lunging right after finishing the charge time, I think that would actually encourage proper leaping, and the actual cancel cooldown could even be increased a bit with such a system still allowing for good plays. Even with your changes, the free injure would remain problematic, not just because I don't like it, but it would still be an issue. It would still be very very easy even with an 8 meter limited range, and it doesn't solve the fundamental problem.
0 -
the thing is, its it would leave the realm of problematic, as you said, it would become "balanced" it would have a definitive counter, and the down itself would massively increase in difficulty. i think your suggestion hinges on an almost complete rework and i just cant imagine i, or most ghoul players would. ever want to see that. i think there's a possibility that your massively underrating the range decrease, as well as the inability to hit over windows and pallets beyond incredibly short distance.
the one concession i will make, is i think if you absolutely had to add a stance swapping mechanic, i wouldn't be ideologically opposed so long as his normal grapple mode, the version we have now, was left completely untouched. but that system is almost impossible to discuss as its a theoretical entire new system.
i do appreciate the way you always look for solutions for things you view as problematic, but i cant agree that my changes would leave this version of the grab-attack unhealthy, or in anyway problematic. possibly unfun, depending on your view point, but nowhere near unhealthy.
0 -
Made for this makes you cross 126m (map distance) 1.5s faster. It has no impact in short bursts.
-1 -
You are not meant to use MFT in a straight line, there's a reason why it was considered OP back when it first released.
0 -
Whether or not ghoul mains want to see a partial rework shouldn't be a deciding factor, if that's what needs to be done to make him not problematic that's what should happen. Besides, it'd only really hinge on being a rework because there'd be a "new mode" or "new mechanic", but he'd still play plenty similar to how he does now/how he would with your update.
I do very much believe he'd still be problematic with the range reduced to 8m and vaults removed, even if the distance you could hit through an obstacle was reduced too. He has almost no charge time, moves extremely fast/far during the leap/slide, is hitscan, and would still be able to hit over plenty of short obstacles including pallets and windows, which would still be a huge deal. He'd still almost guaranteed to hit you and there'd still be nothing you could do about it, and that is problematic. You shoudn't get pressure like that just by asking for it, and if you're gonna try nerfing it further to make it not guaranteed you might as well go with what I'm suggesting instead.
0 -
i don't think what you view as problematic is unanimous. and i don't think we're gonna agree. because the version of this character you want to see, and what most people want to see, are very different. i also still think you're unintentionally disregarding alot of the points ive made about the intentional counterplay these changes in tandem would introduce.
0 -
as a P100 Kaneki I agree with the changes, but I wouldn't change the effects of addons I don't see the point.
Personally, for me, a 2-second cooldown after using an ability is extremely questionable, especially since we have Legion in the game with a 2.5-second cooldown at 2.3 m/s
And tbh these 14m hits is crazy and very annoying for survivors.
Overall Kaneki needs QOL changes, bug fixes and small nerfs - small buffs.0 -
Now, I played him last time on the PTB, so I'm not exactly up to date with him.
But, I like these regardless.
Maybe aside the vault and cancel changes, those don't seem like they are needed to me.
1 -
i didnt change the cancel timings! i only changed the fatigue when grappling onto a survivor directly!
0 -
Of course it's not unanimous, I'm not acting like it is. And most people in the community don't know what they're talking about, why should I care what they want to see? Also feel free to clarify what you mean by intentional counterplay, I saw that you said "reducing the range would inject intentional counterplay into the ability, as he cant vault over an obstacle anymore, meaning if your playing a resource well, you theoretically wouldn't get injured" but full transparency I think I'm misunderstanding what you mean by "injecting intentional counterplay" in this context. I still think the injure would be very guaranteed and easy with your changes, if I'm missing something crucial please clarify
0
