Let's Fix Tunneling ... together <3
So, i've been thinking.
The Game, feels pretty stressful right now as Killer. And you kinda feel forced to use slowdown Perks, in order to have a chance of winning. But Survivors, hate Slowdown Perks. They wanna get their Gens done. So what do they do? That's right, they play more efficiently. "Genrush" as some People like to Call it.
Leading to Killers, needing to find a different way, to slow them down again.
What is a good way to slow them down?
Well to have less Survivors of course.
And what's the best way to do that?
To tunnel someone out as soon as possible.
Now we see where the Problem stems from. It's not just toxicity. It's necessity.
So, instead of Punishing Killers for tunneling, how about we Reward them, for spreading Hooks?
By introducing a Mechanic:
That slows down the Gens by a Way, that is enough, to make up for not tunneling out a Survivor.
But, what if the Killer still decides to tunnel? And then, to make things worse, spreads out the rest of the Hooks for the slowdown? What could Survivors do against that?
I want to think of a Mechanic, that should be in the Base Game, that does exactly that.
And i'm gonna need your help with that.
I've already had a Bunch of ideas, that always seem to hit a Roadblock somewhere along the Line.
But i think by working together, we can figure something out. Killer and Survior Mains together.
We all want to have fun. We don't want the other Side to be too strong.
But we won't change anything, if we always blame the other Side and don't work together.
I'm going to Post a few Ideas on Mechanics that could be introduced. And you can help me find ways to improve them, or figure out why they can and cannot work. Starting … well, now!
First Idea:
A Survivor who gets Hooked for the First time, gets a penalty on Gen Speeds for a duration of time.
Every other Survivor However, gets a Speed Increase on Repairs.
This makes it not worth going for the just hooked Survivor, since they will be making Gens slower anyway. And pushes the Killer towards going for the other Survivors, to give them the Speed penalty aswell.
This could also apply to healing speeds for example.
Yes the just unhooked Survivor is getting an extra penalty for being hooked. But it does help the rest of the Team. And, if another Survivor gets Hooked, it evens out again.
Second idea:
Bring back old BBQ. I know you said it evens out with Bloodpoint incentives but i seriously cannot remember the last time i had one on Killer.
It was a great way for making People go for Hooks on all Survivors.
Even when you can just tunnel out one Survivor at the start and still get all of your stacks,
not everyone plays like that. And it rewards spreading Hooks.
Third Idea:
Hooking a Survivor for the First time, gives every Survivor a Speed Penalty for Gen Repairs.
Hooking a Survivor for the second time, gives every Survivor a Speed Increase for Gen Repairs.
Once a Survivor has been killed, all Survivors get a Massive Speed Boost for Gen Repairs.
How big the increase or decrease is, is dependend on Overall Gen Progress on Generators. Not just completed Gens (This is so People don't 99% Gens in order to get a Super Huge Speed Boost.)
Afterword:
I want to mention that if any of these ideas where to be implemented, that maybe looking at slowdown Perks again would be a good idea. I wouldn't want a Mechanic that helps too much and then have to Face 4 Slowdown Perks on top of that. Strong Slowdown Perks that is.
TL:DR: I want to introduce some ideas to help with Game balance and hopefully make tunneling less viable. Every suggestion and advice is appreciated. <3
Comments
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It's simple, disallow tunnelling, until gen 4, then no holds barred. Gives people some time in the game (with friends), then it's less of an issue.
I don't mind the tunnel, as long as it isn't immediately into the game.
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Tunneling is a common comeback tool that is used either for reason or because you simply can do that. Some killers can tunnel very easily, some killers have hard time tunneling and might easily lose game to that. I can see a new mechanic introduced, that will instantly sacrifice survivor that is hooked after every survivor has at least one hook stage. Meaning that all 4 survivors have 1 hook stage and now the next hook will be guaranteed sacrifice. The next option is to grant killer basekit mori after first hook stage once every survivor been hooked once. Next option is to make perks like deadlock, corrupt or grim basekit, but it wouldn't be as effective imo. Next option is to tie unique hook to more slowdown perks and tune them to force killers to get value of it. Let's say that pop would have 4 uses and on every unique hook will reset entire progress on gen or make it so pain res is 50 % instead if 20 % to force killers to utilize it.
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Alright. interesting concept.
How would you implement it into the Game. What would keep a Killer from tunneling?
Can you please go a little bit more in depth with you idea?0 -
I mean, the idea would be that every Survivor has 3 Hook Stages. Unless the Killer Hooks each Individual Survivor once.
Then he could either Kill them by Hook or by Mori.But then the Problem would be, that you actually need to get each individual Survivor first. Which can be pretty hard and also annoying if the last Survivor is either really good, or very stealthy.
I can imagine Killers thinking it is too annoying to do so, and rather just tunnel out a Weak Player.
Also, whats Stopping them from going after the last individual Survivor they have Hooked?
Now the next idea was, to make certain Perks just Basekit. But the Problem i see is, that i would want a System, that isn't just helping Killers. But is also there to help Survivors turn the Game around when the Killer messes up. If we just made these Perks Basekit, that would just be a Flat buff for Killer. Which would still not disincentivice them from tunneling. They would just have an easier time doing so, because they would just have more slowdown Build in.Also tying these Systems to Perks would be kind of unfair to Players who don't have them. And just straight up buffing Gen Regression Perks, will just make us rely on them for winning. While also making Games much tougher for Survivors without anything they can do about it.
I would personally prefer a System that works without Perks. So everyone can benefit from it.Thank you for your suggestions though. I really appreciate your input :D
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unironically, bringing back bbq would fix it in 9/10 cases. removing bp from perks was just one of the terrible ideas present in 6.1.0 and now that its had 3 years to settle i genuinely think that patch is the root cause for a lot of the issues we're facing now
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How would you "disallow" tunneling? The more you protect the recently unhooked Survivor, the more likely they can abuse that power. It is already not a bad strategy to run across the map to take a hit if you have OTR + DS.
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While we don't think this will help the extreme cases where the killer just wants someone dead, having more dynamic scoring events would help those who want points.
For example, you get an amount of bp for first hook. You hook someone new you get a larger bonus. Hook all 4 like a carousel and you get those bonuses plus an extra. Ping pong between 2 survivors will still get you a bonus, just not as large. Conversely you'd lose out on bonus points for repeat hooks. Something like DMC style points. This would work better than old bbq because you can still tunnel with bbq and get the full bonus.
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So I do think Tunneling is an issue, but I also don't think it applies as much as you think to a Good Coordinated Teams. With a hook stage being 70 seconds that means 2 hooks are 140 seconds of time. + 2 loops + potential anti tunnel perks means it's very likely a good player who's being tunneled even without their team saving them can likely do 4-6 minutes of the killers time. It takes with no pressure around 3 minutes to do 5 generators. So a coordinated team will very likely get 5 generators done and be ready to rescue their 4th player for an escape even during a hard initial tunneling. Even if its a partial tunnel or the get 2 players to 2 hook stages then tunnel both out i think a strong swf team wanting a 4 man escape and not there to troll or be toxic will very likely get all 4 people out under most situations.
As such as I believe your concern is more in line with a non coordinated group, non SWF stack, or weaker survivor skill group regardless of SWF, Solos, etc.. In these cases where the the group is not able to take advantage of the perks available to capitalize on a poor play style of he killer the survivors end up snow balling trying to save people doing little to no generators and trading hooks/hits in attempt to prevent a tunnel or simply put they let the player die anyways but still don't play effectively enough to complete all the generators before the tunnel completes and snowball from there once the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th survivor are eventually killed.
So what I believe needs to first happen and this is all coming from a 100% survivor main i'm not very good myself but I watch a lot of this game.
Hook Timers adjusted to be based off the total hook stages as if the Entity kills faster the more sacrifices that are given. This mean at first the Hook benefit the survivors and sitting on hook doesn't really hurt you much, but as the game proceeds it becomes more balanced and then eventually killer sided.
- Base Game is 70 seconds per hook stage. Below is how we can adjust this to sole the "Toxic" form of tunneling while providing a slight benefit to killers later in a match when getting those final hooks becomes a bit trickier and when camping hooks actually is reasonable / assumed to occur.
- 1st Hook = 150 seconds
- 2nd Hook = 130 seconds
- 3rd Hook = 110 seconds
- 4th Hook = 90 seconds
- 5th Hook = 70 seconds
- 6th Hook = 50 seconds
- 7th Hook = 30 seconds
- 8th Hook = 10 seconds
Now this is a more survivor side but in most cases people will unhook much sooner then the 70 second timer. This is more or less to combat Toxic tunneling at the start of the game and in non coordinated lobbies player will be more likely wanting to work on generators then figure out who is going to unhook the person so giving them ample time to "Find Generator, Do Generator, Run to Hook" solves this slightly. Where 70 seconds turned into snowballs because it's too quick and players aren't quick to make these decisions in non coordinated lobbies.
Now this doesn't really solve the dilemma that you provided as that's tunneling because you have to. In this instance the killer could still hook 2 people (twice) and thus the 5th and 6th would be 0 seconds because "Dead" allowing the last 2 survivors to get pushed into 7th and 8th hook for near instant killing or even the 3rd survivor only have 40 seconds on the hook. Overall I think this is fair since if the killer is truly tunneling and you don't rush people off hooks you're given an insane amount of time initially to sit on hooks which can also be buffed by perks for the extra 34 seconds or pause hook timers essentially you could literally sit on hook for like 3.5 minutes on first hook, but yes i said it snowballs into killers favor the more hooks they do. So it moves away from the toxic tunnel system and into the playstyle tunnel system which i feel is better and not quite as bad and overall more reasonable as well can be seen by survivors occurring if you see that only 2 players are ever getting hooked.
From here I think we honestly need more generators in the match, but allow them to be performed quicker. Currently its 5 generators needing 90 seconds each, but this is not 450 seconds worth of generator time. This is rather
- 3 People do 90 seconds of generator
- 2 People do 90 seconds of generator
Essentially 3 minutes.
Now what if we did a similar idea for Generators
- While 5 Generators left repair speeds take 150 seconds
- While 4 Generators left repair speeds are 20% faster at 120 seconds.
- While 3 Generators left repair speeds are 40% faster at 90 seconds (base value currently).
- While 2 Generators left repair speeds are 60% faster at 60 seconds
- While 1 Generators left repair speeds are 80% faster at 30 seconds
So although over time the killer gets stronger with hooks the killer also gets weaker with generators. Might sound wrong? But think of this way.
3 Generators worked on takes 2 minutes and 30 seconds to get your 1st generator meaning between kicks, surges, pain res, etc.. this is just significantly harder to get started for survivors. Meaning it might actually be worth a team knocking these out with 3 people which is what non coordinated teams are likely to do anyways.
So 3 people is about half the speed but overall it would be 71.4 seconds with 3 people on the first generator. While someone loops. Then 57.1 seconds on the 2nd generator while someone loops with 3 people. About 2 minutes.
Now with 3 generators left you're working at the old speed of 90 seconds. You can move everyone to single generators at this point so 3 people 90 seconds
- Essentially 3 minutes and 30 seconds.
Now in this case though because its 3 people on 1 generator if the killer can find this group mid chase or back out of chase to push them off or do things to nuke their generator they only have 1 generator to worry about. Meaning the killer has to focus on stopping the 1st and 2nd generator from being completed and the survivors have to figure out how they can get the 1st and 2nd done by any means possible. After 1st and 2nd its pretty much over 3rd, 4th, and 5th will be done swiftly. This essentially solves the 3 generator problem because once there's a single generator left it'll only take 30 seconds or 15 roughly with a 3 stack on it.
So what does this overall do and why do i think it could help and may needs tweaks but here's the "Idea"
- Killer no longer should focus on camping or tunneling because the 1st and 2nd generator are so much more important to them and defending those 1st and 2nd completions becomes the strategy. Where currently the strategy is to let survivors do 4 generators and tunnel someone out so now you 3 gen them with only 3 people and hopefully other who are injured wasting their time to hopefully get a 2nd or 3rd kill even and potentially the 4k.
With this new idea they are no focus on hooking and leaving and going straight back to their generators to secure a generator with 150 seconds they had over 2 minutes potentially to loop with or less if the team went on all one generator but that means they won't be ready for the 2nd one yet. Meaning even verse a strong team you could potentially get 2 or 3 hooks before 1 or 2 generators are done. Essentially meaning even at a high skill level its likely you'll have 4-5 hooks by time you're at 2 generators left. So now the survivors can't rush the generators because your hook stages are 50,30,10 from here on out so any hook need quick attention.
Some tweaks on numbers might be needed if one side is too advantageous, but i felt this was a fairly reasonable system.0 -
No offense, but we've been there, done that. You'd want to believe it to be true, but incentivizing anti-tunnel isn't strong enough to stop it. Historically the best combo to fight it was stronger second chance perks on Survivor and old BBQ like @GoodBoyKaru mentioned. You essentially have to introduce a mechanic that makes it so weak that it only makes sense in specific scenarios (like a true comeback), introduce something as broken for Survivor so it's much more of a give-and-take, or make spreading hooks more fun than the opposite (making it more attractive is nice, but if it doesn't feel good it won't work as easily).
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Only anti tunnel feature they should add imo is a delayed unhook notice so high movement killers can't effectively proxy camp you from any point of the map. Like other than that the core issue of tunneling being so common is because survivors refuse to learn how to not give the killer free tunnels every match and never actually punishing killers for super coinflip tunneling
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I quiet like this idea. Even if there was a new System to be implemented that would help more against tunneling. I still think this would be a great incentive for playing fair.
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Yeah i get that. That's why i had old BBQ as one of my ideas aswell. Even before @GoodBoyKaru mentioned it. I can remember myself really trying to get all the Hooks and sometimes even throwing the Game all together just so i would get that sweet sweet Bonus BP At the end of the Match.
Maybe we don't need a perfect system for that. Maybe we just need a few small ones.
Like, make it just feel a bit more rewarding to go for each individual Survivor.
I think @Rulebreaker had a pretty solid idea. It would need to be super Obvious and Visual though. Or have an Audio Cue.I really like the little *pling* you got from BBQ back then. It sounded like a "good Job" when i hooked a Survivor.
Just small things really make a difference.I don't think you can "fix" tunneling. But we could try and make the Opposite just much more appealing.
This is what im trying to get here. Just find small or big solutions.
And maybe, if we find something good, the devs might stumble upon it some day. And completely ignore it <31 -
I'm gonna be honest, i don't think this is a System you could implement into a Casual Gamemode.
I think you could only realistically play with this, with a full SWF on Coms.
Because SoloQ Survivors just aren't that coordinated or efficient.
I like that you brought new ideas to the Table though. And maybe with some slight Number tweaks,
this could be looked at again.
But i feel like in it's current state, it would make Games just extremly stressful. Even more so then they already are.Thank you for your ideas and suggestion. And of course putting in the time and effort to write this all down.
It is appreciated :D0 -
Alternative idea focused around rewarding fair gameplay and punishing unfair gameplay.
New Haste Buff for Survivors and Killers called "Fair Play Haste Buff"Firstly we reward fair gameplay with "SPEED".
- Every time the killer hooks someone they'll gain 1% Fair Play haste buff.
- Every time the killer hooks everyone at least once it'll reset the checks and any of the 4 survivors are now available even the most recently hooked one with no penalty to the killer.
- If the killer double hooks a survivor before hooking everyone at least once they'll lose EVERY buff to their haste at any point in the trial.
- This mean the killer so long as they made sure everyone got hooked at least once before hooking everyone again could have 8% extra haste when doing the final hook stages. A Significant buff to finalize those kills.
Survivors now need a way to combat this or balance it out especially if tunneled even if partially tunneled.
- When a survivor is first hooked they'll receive a 3% Fair Play haste buff.
- When a survivor is hooked for the 2nd time their current perm haste will be doubled and another 3% added.
- When any other survivor but themselves are hooked they will lose 1% of this perm haste.
How is this balanced for survivors? Killers? Early Game? End Game? What happens on accidental Tunneling? Etc…
- If a Survivor is instant tunneled I.e. Hooks 1 and Hooks 2 they'll have a 9% haste buff over the killer. Meaning this survivor will be almost unkillable.
- If a Killer plays fair they will always have a 1% advantage that climbs to 3% for the first four hooks.
- If a Killer continues to play fair they have at minimum a 1% advantage with up to a 7% advantage for the 2nd set of hooks.
- If a Killer has played fair the whole match they will have a minimum of 5% advantage and a maximum of 11% advantage for the final hooks.
- If a Killer hooks someone fairly for the 4th hook, they then are unhooked and the killer then decides to tunnel this person out instantly since now they won't get their unfair reset since everyone's been hooked. The survivor will still have a 4% haste advantage over the killer since it's later in the game this isn't quite as bad as an early tunnel.
- If a Killer hooks someone fairly for the 4th hook, hook even just one other survivor, but then accidently hooks this 4th hook guy again for the 6th hook then then it mostly means the survivor didn't do enough to get away so in this case they only have a 1% haste advantage over the killer which will be small buff but likely not enough to get prevent full removal.
- If a Killer mostly plays fair but lets say 4th hook gets hooked for 7th hook instead of 8th in this case the killer would have only a 2% advantage over the survivor still allows the killer to be stronger but not quite as strong had they left this person for the 8th hook.
What about potential toxic/troll usage of survivors?
- If no one has been hooked for 180 seconds then Fair Play Haste Buffs are reset for ALL survivors only.
- When a Generator is completed this timer is reduced by 30 seconds. Meaning after all 5 generators have been completed the killer only has to wait 30 seconds since last hook to remove all survivor "Fair Play Haste Buffs".
- The goal is that survivors cannot abuse the haste buff to prevent the killer form hooking them in combination with other haste perks and anti tunnel/hook perks.
Post edited by JeremyDX on0 -
@TurboTOne Yeah so with the recent announcement i honestly think their solution is so bad. Sure it'll be fun for survivors but holy crap is this going to suck for killers. Its far too punishing and doesn't provide any real buffs for the killer that can push the game in their favors. Whats your honest thoughts on my suggestion and what you think on behaviors upcoming changes.
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Honestly, i think you have a very creative idea. It's not super overwhelming aswell as some of my suggestions are.
Just simple Haste if you play fair.As for the announcement… Well it all comes down to the Numbers. Each time you get a unique Hook. Which doesnt mean Unique Survivor but just not the same Survivor who was hooked last, you get a bunch of Buffs.
Depending on how big these Buffs are. The Haste, the Bonus Damage on Gens and the duration of the Aura Reveal, it could be not helpful at all to the Killer, to being actually quiet good.Let's say you get like 10% Haste, a Bonus of 10% regression (so 12.5% overall) And like 6 seconds or maybe 4 seconds or Aura reveal.
I think that would actually be kinda good. Well, again, depending on the duration of the Haste and how long you get the Bonus Gen Kick damage.
It would be crazy cool if you could stack the Damage. Like you can Hook 4 Survivors, never kick a Gen inbetween, and then after your 5th Hook go kick a Gen and get like 50% off it. That would be amazing.
But, as we know BHVR. It's probably gonna be a Haste of like 3% and a maximum of 5% that lasts for like 10 seconds.
Probably like 5% Damage on Gens. And maybe 3 seocnds of Aura reveal.
If they go lower then what i just said. We should start complaining big time. Cause then it would just be an insult to Killer Players.0 -
Basekit OTR for 90/120s, Don't show unhook. Show killer hookstages
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The thing is… Why should I have to waste perk slots because killers' play like jerks ?
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