Slugging was, is and always will be a normal and healthy part of this game.
Hello! I'm writing this post in hope to reach devs about anti-slugging changes and explain why it will ruin many aspects of this game and most important part of gameplay for me – macro and decision making. And as 50/50 player, it will just dumb down gameplay on both sides a lot.
I honestly thought we had enough testing of free UB in past and community explained these points a lot, but I'm glad to repeat it all again, since it definately will only create problem while solving nothing.
While anti-tunneling changes has some potential, anti-slugging should not be in this game in any form at all. Even Tenacity basekit will be HUGE game changer in crucial situations and insane amount of free time for survivor role.
Slugging is the problem?
To begin with, I think I missed the point when slugging began to be "problem" along with campingtunneling, because literally all my 6 years in this game I never heard any complains about it and everyone understood perfectly well that it's just part of gameplay, but suddenly in last year survivors began to classify it as "unfun gameplay".
While it's maybe not the most fun of gameplay, it still big part of gameplay on both sides and I don't see a single reason why this part of gameplay should be suddenly extremely in favor of one side, which already benefits the most from it, if plays well.
I've read some absolutely absurd statements here that I usually don't even spend time discussing, but since they will appear in the comments regardless, I feel like I have to say these unbelievably obvious things just to stop this festival of ignorance:
— Survivors don't have anything to prevent 4 people from slugging and snowbowling.
— And why they should, to begin with? If 4 survivors on the ground, it literally has to end with a large SKILL ISSUE sign and transition to the lobby, like with Fatality in MK. Because if you not only let the killer start 4 chases in different parts of the map in short period of time, not only all of you lost these chases, but made it so fast to the point killer has time to travel the map, find someone, start and win another chase or two, then you definately as a team made a lot of critical mistakes. It's just mathematically impossible for 1 moving point to catch 4 moving points in a large space full of resources, unless all chases are too fast and killer has non-stop info about next target after every single chase. And now basicly asking rewards even in situation, where s e v e r a l critical mistakes were made? Yeah, truly fair and balanced.
— 90 seconds is enough for normal gameplay.
— Yeah, kinda agree, in most matches you don't need even 90s to slug. Problem is — in most times survivors dictate if it will be "normal" gameplay or not. And worst part – this free UB will affect exactly these players, who actively trying to prevent killer from hooking. And actually close matches, where killer tries to create pressure and/or simply don't have time to pick up. Average lobby won't be affected by this, let's be honest. If average soloq survivors play match against killer much more stronger than them and end up 4 people on the ground, their timers are not even close to 90s. They just abandon and go next.
And this video is perfect example of how a series of important mistakes could result into… rewards for them and punishing for killer? Because by the time they end up in this situation, 3 of them would pick them self up with this handholding change and 4k will result into probably just 1k, even with the fact that killer played completely "normal" match and didn't go for slugging without reason for that. Fair and balanced, once again.
And trust, I had not 10, not 100 and not even 300 matches like this on both sides with different situations, but almost always with one common thing – series of critical mistakes from survivors. And maybe only 4-5 games in my 6 years, where it was some stupid build for slugging with old Knock Out or full aura build Nurse on Midwich, where survivors truly had nothing to do with it.
Killers' power
This is the point I hate the most about this change. I love killers with map pressure, because it's basicly chess gameplay, where you need to keep everything in your head and make decision based on it with all pros and cons.
And slugging always was part of it. Sometimes it smarter to use your power wisely to create pressure (Oni, Dredge, Sadako, Singu, Twins, Knight…), and these killers don't need compensation buffs, they need possibility of using their power smart. There is already high risk of your down will be picked up in the time you will try to find someone else I don't understand why macro gameplay with killers power should be eliminated and killers should be punished for managing resources they have.
Perks on both sides
Unbreakable – perk that has changed the course of the game big number of times in my memory. You can always see this perk in SWF, because they know that it's a "get out of jail" card, and even if they made so many mistakes that the four of them ended up on the ground, they can always fix all their mistakes with a single perk. It's free gen time for your team as well, if killer decided to left you on the ground. You can say same thing about Conviction, but this one have even more utilizations. Can you explain how we give this gamechaning perk in buffed state with Tenacity to all survivors for free, but not just from the start of the game?
WGLF is another very strong perk due to how easy it can denies killer's pressure. And still requires another survivor for it. And even this perk pales before this change.
What about killers perks that you need to slug to have value from? Infectious, Forced Hesitation, new Ravenous, None Are Free? These are already extremely situational perk you won't see value consistently. Even weaker now?
Absolutely nothing done about forcing killers to slug
I honestly don't want to stop for long here, we all know what this is about. And it's sad to see how community completely ignored this and only @Coffeecrashing tried to pay attention to this problem. We cannot punish one side for a certain actions and reward the other side for forcing the same actions.
TL:DR Will game be better with this change?
Undoubtedly – worse by far.
Except drastically decreasing killer's agency in many situations, limiting many killers abilities, removing macro
gameplay on survivor side to autopilot mode, not doing anything except gives absurd advantages to already
strongest players in this game, and make unfun gameplay even worse, I think all matches affected by these
changes will eventually split into three categories:
1) Already lost matches, which just unnecessarily last way longer. I don't think anyone will be glad to see
this. Only a redesigned MMR will fix such matches.
2) Actually equal and long matches, where both sides don't know if they will win or not to the last minutes. These rare matches will be even more rare, because by the end of the game in matches like this all killer's pressure and survivors' mistakes will result into rewards for them, just for nothing.
I can't even imagine how cheap it would feel, when in the endgame I just nullify all killer's pressure for free, just because once someone sabo'ed hook before killer with myself on his shoulder and next time dared not to ignore survivor next to me on the ground.
Even if someone fine with this handholding, I really afraid of what will coming right after this: all killer's pressure from these matches will accumulate into even shorter chases and killers buffs.
3) Most unfun killers matches will be even worse. All sabo, flashlight, dying under pallet with Background Player SWFs will only recieve most unnecessary buff to these playstyles, while put killer into lose/lose situation with no right choice for him.
What can be done about slugging?
The only thing I can see be added is crawl speed based on how long you are on the ground.
0-60 seconds – default 0,7 m/s.
60-120 seconds – Tenacity speed – 1,05 m/s.
120-180 seconds – 1,4 m/s.
180-240 seconds – 1,75 m/s.
This change I believe will be much healthier for the game and won't create even more problems, like with PTB version, but will make "excessive" slugging much more harder for killer, while won't affect most "normal" matches at all.
Thank you for your time.
Comments
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yet another match i just had…. v onryo. 1 survivor slugged, 1 in chase, 1 hooked and me on a gen. i unhooked, healed then we both got on a gen. why did neither of us help the slug? answer is, they were down for ages and they didnt bother to press heal button to make it easier for the team to help them. if they wont help themselves they can complain when others dont help them. slugging isnt a problem, its the players that are the problem. im seeing time and time again slugs making no effort to heal or move to a safe location.
earlier i had expo and the same thing happened, they didnt bother to get themselves up they just lay there like a dead fish and then shout at me for not healing them lol. madness.
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I also have the same opinion. Slugging 98% of the time is survivor's fault during the trial. There's no way anyone is going to convince me that 4 survivors downed by B tier or lower killers isn't going to be the group's own fault.
Slugging survivors and leaving them on the ground for 4 minutes was a horrible situation but this has now been fixed.
Slugging has always been and will always be a viable strategy for killers who want to put pressure on survivors in a disadvantageous situation without having to resort to tunneling.
Although hooking survivors is the method that killers need to perform to win and progress the trial, sometimes it can even be a hook at the wrong time that can cost you the entire game. The killer must know the right moment to hook a survivor depending on the situation.
Slugging + Hit and Run has always been a good strategy and that's why slugging can't be removed from the game entirely whether people like it or not.
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To begin with, I think I missed the point when slugging began to be "problem" along with campingtunneling, because literally all my 6 years in this game I never heard any complains about it and everyone understood perfectly well that it's just part of gameplay, but suddenly in last year survivors began to classify it as "unfun gameplay".
Your assessment of the past is untrue, the problem of slugging has been described as far back as 2016.
You can easily check this by searching for "slugging" and looking at the least newest pages.
They called it "Bleedout Killers" back then. 😅
But no, this problem was clocked back in 2016. Me thinks you have not really gone looking for complaints about it.
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You've conveniently cut away the responses, which are pretty unanimous (and reflective of the playerbase at large during this time period), that slugging was not a problem. Of course, you'll always be able to find a few people who complained about X, Y, or Z, as far back as 2016, but the average player back then was much more indifferent to slugging than they are now — as evidenced by the replies.
OP's assessment of the past is valid. While it isn't absolutely true to say "no one cared about slugging at all in the past", I don't think that's the point they were trying to make. The point was that slugging was not the hot button issue it is today, and was often seen as simply being part of the game.
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I don't think that slugging should be fully abolished, but I do not think it should be allowed to do for long periods of time without any consequences.
From the dev update, I mainly disliked the fact that survivors unlocked infinite Unbreakable after just 90 seconds, and the faster crawling speed.
The passive recovery and recovery while crawilng were good changes, imo. The new abandon option too.
The Resolve meter could work IF it triggered after 105-120 seconds, worked only once and then would go back to 0 (so you get up once, and have to wait x seconds again).
Additionally, perks like Plot Twist and Power Struggle should get changes in exchange. Power Struggle would need a new condition (so you can't trigger it on a pallet you died under) and Plot Twist should not count towards the Resolve meter.
Also, Deerstalker should remain the same.
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You used 1 in 100 type of example. Even SupaAlf said this.
You don't play against 40k hours lobbys all the time.
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What can be done about slugging?
The only thing I can see be added is crawl speed based on how long you are on the ground.
0-60 seconds – default 0,7 m/s.
60-120 seconds – Tenacity speed – 1,05 m/s.
120-180 seconds – 1,4 m/s.
180-240 seconds – 1,75 m/s.I still think the ability to get away from their initial slug location is the only thing slugged Survivors need to effectively combat slugging.
The way I would do it is once a Survivor has reached 60-95% or more of recovery progress (somewhere in that region), they can press and hold the sprint/rush button for 1s to enter the Desperation state, where they begin overexerting themselves to try and crawl away.
Desperation would add the following effects:
- 50% crawling speed.
- 50% louder grunts of pain.
- 75% faster bleedout.
Staying still for 5 seconds to recover from that overexertion ends Desperation and return to normal Dying again.
I feel this mechanic makes thematic and logical sense, and is satisfying to the horror theme, gives a little more agency and decision making to slugged Survivors, without being exploitable in any fashion, and encourages smart and tactile play over strong arming the killer. It may even allow a few lucky crawls for hatch when slugged for the 4k.
The only bit that would be sad, is this would have been a nice basekit mechanic vs. Old Knockout, if Knockout was still a thing... both the faster crawling and louder grunts of pain would have helped Survivors drastically. 🥺
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Completely incorrect, there is a difference between a problem existing, one person complaining/not about the problem and the playerbase at large complaining/not about it. Each can exist without the other. As people will complain about non-problems as is.
To sum it up, a problem doesn’t require someone to point it out in order to exist.
Even if the large majority didn't complain does not mean there isn't a problem. Many often don't see problems even in plain sight.Either way that OP meant it, Slugging could still be a problem event if nobody complain about.
and as I showed, people HAVE BEEN clocking that problem since long time ago.So you pointing out people didnt care about the problem back then (some did and some didnt) does not mean it wasn't a problem.
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I think slugging is an issue basically only when killer has it as primary and only strategy.
It's fine when players use it in specific situations.Issue is PTB feature affected every form of slugging, which is not good. There simply are situations where any killer has to slug and some killers need to slug in basically every game (Oni, Twins)
So far I like most the feature when two fully recovered survivors can pick eachother from ground.
You can add faster movement if fully recovered to make it easier.2 -
In my matches I see pretty often how survivor just crawls god knows where instead of recovering, losing everyone's time for no reason. And that's why even Tenacity basekit alone will be giant buff and dumbing down survivor gameplay, because in some moments this decision making might cost your team a lot.
Yeah, exactly. Before ~2024 I only heard "camper tunneler" as insults. Surely there were slugging even before this time, but if all 4 survivors were on the ground, everyone understood "yeah, we ######### up". In 2024 in rulebook new "not allowed" appeared, and I even laughed when I saw survivors trying to shift responsibility for their mistakes onto killer, calling him a "slugger." But I definitely didn't think that it would consolidate to the point that devs would want to test these crazy changes.
It sadly won't help with my points at all and will only help to groups who need it least of all.
Except absolutely nothing was said about their hours or how good/bad they are. Whole point was about killer does his best to win and meet criteria where survivors get rewards for their mistakes and he is punished for doing right decisions.
I still think the ability to get away from their initial slug location is the only thing slugged Survivors need to effectively combat slugging.
Absolutely agree. If intention of whole mechanic is making killers who go for slugging as main strategy more manageable, that's will be more than enough, we don't need to break bones half of the game to reach this.
Your suggestion is good as well, I like it.-2 -
Here is the tldr for the OP:
I don't play survivor
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This response is so overly concerned with semantics, to the point that the logic cannibalises itself.
there is a difference between a problem existing, one person complaining/not about the problem and the playerbase at large complaining/not about it. Each can exist without the other. As people will complain about non-problems as is.
If we take this to be true then your referral back to that 2016 post of someone pointing out the problem is completely redundant. For what significance does someone pointing out a problem exists have if the existence of the problem is entirely separate from the population who experience it? None.
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Yeah, you nailed it. You just missed an important part here:
I don't play survivor brainlessly. Maybe that's why I have 50% escape rate in soloq.-3 -
Well, Im glad you take that as true, but clearly OP didnt. Which is why I was able to point it out.
And as I showed, someone DID experience it.0 -
You can realize that most killers are average MMR, and aren’t perfectly playing killers. And some of the “S-Tier” killers really aren’t that good at average MMR.
The community tier lists aren’t useful at all for average MMR, because they are based on the skill levels of 8000+ hour comp DBD players. Average MMR really should have its own tier list.
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If I'm being completely honest, if this proposed change were to roll through, Killers would start running Deerstalker by default and then they'd get upset about that and anti-slug would be scaled back. Even then, being able to crawl away would do very little to solve the larger problem of player fatigue. Survivors need more agency in situations where slugging is used beyond a simple catchup mechanic, which is what anti-slug was proposing. You can argue that they're the power role, which I disagree with, but that doesn't change the fact that slugging does more than it should and it's incredibly boring for the other side.
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And killers need more agency for being able to hook survivors, so they aren't forced to slug as much.
The anti-slugging PTB wanted to punish killers for slugging, but also made it more likely the killer would be forced to slug, which is a horribly unfair combination.
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you for real? if you wanna see why its a problem load into a match, plot twist but don't fully recover, and just sit there till you bleed out or are saved. not very fun.
you mention that if survivors are slugged then they made a series of mistakes…well survivors could argue that if you need to slug to win…you have made a series of mistakes. These sorts of arguments are pointless because they only ever focus on ONE side and not both. The purpose of the change…the point of the change…is increasing FUN for the majority of players. Id say increasing the enjoyment of much of the community is worth the frustration of a handful of slugging killers.
There is a significant portion of this community that fails to realize that video games are about mutual enjoyment for both sides. Video games are about fun…not feeding one persons ego. no-one plays a video game to sit on the ground the whole match. As much as it goes against the "win at all costs" mentality….fun needs to be considered for everyone. You can still have fun as killer without slugging. The survivors (4/5 of the lobby) cannot have fun while they are slugged.
also at the end of the day. The killers job isnt necessarily to kill…its to sacrifice them to the entity via hooks. Thats why bleeding out doesnt reward you with much and has even blocked adept achievements.
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